bogey: I think one of the reasons the prison in TFA is successful is because the prisoners are developing good habits by getting up and going to a meaningful job every day and generally living a lifestyle very close to what society would like them to live when they get out. It can't work for a lot of the shiatheads in prison but for those it can it seems like a good idea.


Assembling Patriot Missiles for 10 hours a day for $0.23/hour isn't meaningful? (click-pop)

/Pink Floyd lyrics come to mind reading that. . .

marsoft: Aidan: TFA was quite long, and I'm dealing with a 5 year old who needs outside, so I may have missed something but...

Here's where my confusion lies: The inmates APPEAR to be given better opportunities and chances to improve their lives than a normal non-criminal person would, outside of prison. That seems more than a little unfair to me.

I realize that the inmates were taken from closed prisons so they should have every indication of what happens if they fark up hanging over their heads, but I can think of maybe 30% of American youth (wild-ass guess) who'd consider committing a crime or two to have access to those education opportunities, the chance to get away from poisonous home environments and deadbeat towns and...

Have I completely missed the point here?

Average re-offending rate across Europe 70-75%, Denmark, Sweden and Finland 30%, Norway 20%, Bastoy (the prison in the article which is in Norway) 16%.

So like for like with the normal system in Norway 20%, this is 16%. What is not clear at all is the reason for the improvement. It could be the people moved to this prison are hand picked. If that is true, then there is no real improvement, especially when we are talking about only 120 inmates.

I would like to see the inmates randomly selected for this prison, so the effectiveness could actually be verified.

It's a lot easier when gangs are not controlling the prisons and the society is largely homogenous (new window). It's funny when you people always break out these "wonder countries" without actually looking at demographics. It's the same bullshiat as when liberals were touting UW's educational system, and it was shown that when broken down by racial makeup, they performed worse.

Nick Nostril: The first pic shows a dude sunbathing, says he's in for murder.

Further down, another pic says the prison is for low-security inmates.

WTF?

Someone who murders his wife and her lover upon finding them in bed together and demonstrates remorse is a low risk of escape or violence in prison. Someone who killed people for fun or profit, not so much. It's not hard to understand.

Freezebyte: fark that shiat. If you fark up in normal society, then you deserve several years of hard ass labor to make up for your stupidity and make our lives a bit easier in the process and maybe clean your act and learn a hard lesson like they did back in the old school days. Complete with a gun in the back of your head if you try anything stupid.

You farked up and you deserve to get farked yourself as punishment. You don't learn anything by being treated like a farking to tourist.

Yup, there's that good ol' Puritan mindset...never mind if all of the evidence says that you're wrong and that our approach isn't working, what matters is that the people who broke the law are getting HURT!

"An eye for an eye" was meant to be a legal limit, not a sentencing guideline.

To everyone saying "Why bother to function in society if the good life can be acquired simply by committing a crime?"

I reply-- This isn't the US. This is Norway. If you DON'T commit a crime you get all the advantages these guys get plus freedom. It's not like a homeless person will say "oh this looks great!" They're living in an apartment complex paid for by welfare, they can come and go as they please, and see their family whenever they want. They can get a job they love for six figures instead of being a ferry worker, they can meet girls and fark and drink and get married. So of course there's no incentive to commit a crime just because prisons are nicer than the US.

marsoft: Sounds like you are agreeing with my earlier posting about the prisoners here being hand picked for the prison. Remember the avarage for Norway is 20%, 16% is an improvement on that, but with such a small sample of hand picked inmates you cannot attribute the deviation from the norm to the prison itself.

Absolutely. A lot of these people are screwed up beyond repair but our one size fits all approach isn't working. Throwing one time offenders (even murderers) in the same hole with hard core career criminals is pretty much guaranteed to generate more irredeemably screwed up people.

MyRandomName: marsoft: Aidan: TFA was quite long, and I'm dealing with a 5 year old who needs outside, so I may have missed something but...

Here's where my confusion lies: The inmates APPEAR to be given better opportunities and chances to improve their lives than a normal non-criminal person would, outside of prison. That seems more than a little unfair to me.

I realize that the inmates were taken from closed prisons so they should have every indication of what happens if they fark up hanging over their heads, but I can think of maybe 30% of American youth (wild-ass guess) who'd consider committing a crime or two to have access to those education opportunities, the chance to get away from poisonous home environments and deadbeat towns and...

Have I completely missed the point here?

Average re-offending rate across Europe 70-75%, Denmark, Sweden and Finland 30%, Norway 20%, Bastoy (the prison in the article which is in Norway) 16%.

So like for like with the normal system in Norway 20%, this is 16%. What is not clear at all is the reason for the improvement. It could be the people moved to this prison are hand picked. If that is true, then there is no real improvement, especially when we are talking about only 120 inmates.

I would like to see the inmates randomly selected for this prison, so the effectiveness could actually be verified.

It's a lot easier when gangs are not controlling the prisons and the society is largely homogenous (new window). It's funny when you people always break out these "wonder countries" without actually looking at demographics. It's the same bullshiat as when liberals were touting UW's educational system, and it was shown that when broken down by racial makeup, they performed worse.

What the hell are you talking about? Since when am I "You People". If you actually read what I had written, you would see I was criticising the figures, not agreeing with them. I was also clearly stating 16% when the average is 20% and the inmates are HAND PICKED with only 120 of them CANNOT be SEEN AS SIGNIFICANT or PROOF.

Read what I wrote next time.

Dude raped a 66 year old last time, and a 16 year old this time.

Wouldn't it be easier to just find a twentysomething with daddy issues on C/L, then play spanky-spanky until she finds the handcuff key.

Unsung_Hero: Justice is a euphemism for revenge.

Oh yeah? Well a hero aint nothing but a sandwich!

ThisNameSux: What kind of deterrent is going to prison when you know you'll be living the good life?

If living in a structured environment is "the good life" then why do so many people prefer freedom to a socialized system of labor where the authorities choose where you live and work?

I would suggest if people are willing to commit crimes to get into these facilities, we should have facilities like them for people who wish to voluntarily enter them anyway.

Great Justice: Unsung_Hero: Justice is a euphemism for revenge.

Oh yeah? Well a hero aint nothing but a sandwich!

ThisNameSux: What kind of deterrent is going to prison when you know you'll be living the good life?

If living in a structured environment is "the good life" then why do so many people prefer freedom to a socialized system of labor where the authorities choose where you live and work?

I would suggest if people are willing to commit crimes to get into these facilities, we should have facilities like them for people who wish to voluntarily enter them anyway.

I think almost every country in the world does have such facilities for volunteers, they are called the armed forces.

Skail: Damn. That's interesting. I wonder if it would ever work in the States, though of course, we'd never get the opportunity to try it, anyway, because of political dipshiattery.

they just removed all consequences from even being a murderer . you murder someone, then you get to go to vacation island, immediately learn to be a ferry worker, take classes at university, train for a new career, start a new career. I mean wtf are you talking about? there's no punishment at all. I'm not surprised the recidivism rate is better there for someone who murdered someone and got a paid vacation out of it than here where you are taken out of circulation for 25 years. and frankly, I don't give a shiat.

/I do think our prisons need to be cleaned up, but they shouldn't be a vacation.

OBBN: darkyn: It will likely not catch on for a while. People are much more interested in vengeance than in rehabilitiation.

Sorry, but someone who commits premeditated murder or torture rape of a child isn't going to be rehaabiitated. They deserve nothing, except perhaps a rope around the neck.

What percentage of the prison population fit in that category?

Nick Nostril: The first pic shows a dude sunbathing, says he's in for murder.

Further down, another pic says the prison is for low-security inmates.

WTF?

In Norway and Sweden you are moved to lower security prisons as your release date comes closer. You also get more and more unmonitored periods of leave (at first you just get out for like an hour or so with two guards to perhaps get a cup of coffee or something).

You just don't throw people straight out into "normal" life after they've spent 15 years behind bars.

OBBN: darkyn: It will likely not catch on for a while. People are much more interested in vengeance than in rehabilitiation.

Sorry, but someone who commits premeditated murder or torture rape of a child isn't going to be rehaabiitated. They deserve nothing, except perhaps a rope around the neck.

Then let's separate the Cyrus The Virus types from the Cameron Poe types, hmm?

I'd be willing to wager big money that the Cameron Poe types outnumber the Cyrus types by a large margin.

"Can a prison possibly justify treating its inmates with saunas, sunbeds and deckchairs if that prison has the lowest reoffending rate in Europe?"

If so, yes. The whole point of prison is to teach offenders a lesson so they don't re-offend.

relcec: Skail: Damn. That's interesting. I wonder if it would ever work in the States, though of course, we'd never get the opportunity to try it, anyway, because of political dipshiattery.

they just removed all consequences from even being a murderer . you murder someone, then you get to go to vacation island, immediately learn to be a ferry worker, take classes at university, train for a new career, start a new career. I mean wtf are you talking about? there's no punishment at all. I'm not surprised the recidivism rate is better there for someone who murdered someone and got a paid vacation out of it than here where you are taken out of circulation for 25 years. and frankly, I don't give a shiat.

/I do think our prisons need to be cleaned up, but they shouldn't be a vacation.

I may be misunderstanding what you're saying but it sounds like you don't mind our prison system creating mentally damaged career criminals and turning them loose on society as long as you get your pound of flesh, consequences be damned.

There are some places of work out there that give ex-cons a break and hire them; but then, there are only so many seats in congress.

The resistance to this concept goes back to the primal motivation behind the penal system. People want to 'torment' prisoners, believing that they deserve it and they might be taught by fear and pain not to re-offend.

This prison proves that most crime is committed for reasons best confronted with education, understanding and actual, honest rehabilitation, as opposed to torture.

bogey: relcec: Skail: Damn. That's interesting. I wonder if it would ever work in the States, though of course, we'd never get the opportunity to try it, anyway, because of political dipshiattery.

they just removed all consequences from even being a murderer . you murder someone, then you get to go to vacation island, immediately learn to be a ferry worker, take classes at university, train for a new career, start a new career. I mean wtf are you talking about? there's no punishment at all. I'm not surprised the recidivism rate is better there for someone who murdered someone and got a paid vacation out of it than here where you are taken out of circulation for 25 years. and frankly, I don't give a shiat.

/I do think our prisons need to be cleaned up, but they shouldn't be a vacation.

I may be misunderstanding what you're saying but it sounds like you don't mind our prison system creating mentally damaged career criminals and turning them loose on society as long as you get your pound of flesh, consequences be damned.

Actually he sounds like he is saying, yes rehabilitation, but also yes punishment.

Some (I will not say most, because that would be me speaking for others when I don't have that right), people believe that there should be punishment for crime as well as rehabilitation.

I agree with that, if nothing more than for a compare and contrast scenario.

This is what your live will be like if you reoffend and each time you do it, things will only get worse.

AND

This is what your life could be like, and we will traing you and support you to turn things around.

As I have said repeatedly here. Carrot AND Stick.

Norway has 5 million people in the country.

308 million people here.

will not work.

yes, we have too many people in prison. Sorry, there are folks that cannot be rehab'd when you have a giant population.

To those who think the U.S. doesn't have something like this, think again:
Delancey Street (new window).

marsoft: ThisNameSux: What kind of deterrent is going to prison when you know you'll be living the good life?

If living in a structured environment is "the good life" then why do so many people prefer freedom to a socialized system of labor where the authorities choose where you live and work?

I would suggest if people are willing to commit crimes to get into these facilities, we should have facilities like them for people who wish to voluntarily enter them anyway.

I think almost every country in the world does have such facilities for volunteers, they are called the armed forces.

Which armed force can I join to spend all my time on an island resort learning useful skills in a peaceful setting? The armed forces aren't there to provide training or aid to people who need it, they exist to kill people and break things in a strategic manner. Any job training provided to service members is a side effect of learning the skills needed to kill people and break things.

I would submit that the high levels of re-offending convicts in this country are the greatest proof that we need that our current system of torment and torture has failed completely.

If all we're about is punishment and fear, then just go Starship Troopers and have mandatory execution and mandatory viewing of said executions.

Otherwise, accept that there are better ways of dealing with criminals. Namely education and opportunity for a meaningful life within society.

KilaKitu: Obviously our current system doesn't work - see rate of recidivism - so we do need to look at alternative ways of transitioning people back into the greater society. Certainly no easy answers.

One aspect not really discussed in the article is the influence of culture on how prisons are operated. As mentioned by darkyn, our goal remains vengeance, and until we get serious about finding workable solutions to gangs, poverty, etc, we aren't likely to focus on how to transition offenders successfully and productively into the real world.

\stepping down from the soapbox

And once we go to for-profit prisons, expect to see even higher recidivism. Why? How do you make money if you don't have repeat customers?

MyRandomName: marsoft: Aidan: TFA was quite long, and I'm dealing with a 5 year old who needs outside, so I may have missed something but...

Here's where my confusion lies: The inmates APPEAR to be given better opportunities and chances to improve their lives than a normal non-criminal person would, outside of prison. That seems more than a little unfair to me.

I realize that the inmates were taken from closed prisons so they should have every indication of what happens if they fark up hanging over their heads, but I can think of maybe 30% of American youth (wild-ass guess) who'd consider committing a crime or two to have access to those education opportunities, the chance to get away from poisonous home environments and deadbeat towns and...

Have I completely missed the point here?

Average re-offending rate across Europe 70-75%, Denmark, Sweden and Finland 30%, Norway 20%, Bastoy (the prison in the article which is in Norway) 16%.

So like for like with the normal system in Norway 20%, this is 16%. What is not clear at all is the reason for the improvement. It could be the people moved to this prison are hand picked. If that is true, then there is no real improvement, especially when we are talking about only 120 inmates.

I would like to see the inmates randomly selected for this prison, so the effectiveness could actually be verified.

It's a lot easier when gangs are not controlling the prisons and the society is largely homogenous (new window). It's funny when you people always break out these "wonder countries" without actually looking at demographics. It's the same bullshiat as when liberals were touting UW's educational system, and it was shown that when broken down by racial makeup, they performed worse.

Ah, the racists have arrived. Took longer than I thought.

OBBN: marsoft: OBBN: darkyn: It will likely not catch on for a while. People are much more interested in vengeance than in rehabilitiation.

Sorry, but someone who commits premeditated murder or torture rape of a child isn't going to be rehaabiitated. They deserve nothing, except perhaps a rope around the neck.

What percentage of the prison population fit in that category?

Well considering in the article they had a picture of a murderer sunbathing I would say pretty high in this instance. You really think that it is okay for a murderer, someone who took a life, to live in realative luxury as a punishment. Nothing more should happen to him? Something tells me that you are okay with it UNLESS it was someone close to you that was killed. I am betting most people that think prisoners should be coddled haven't been victims of crime yet.

You mean the one who killed an anphetamine dealer? The only one actually mentioned in the article? Yeah, I don't really have a problem with a murderer who killed an anphetamine dealer. He had already spent 8.5 years in a normal prison. That is just over half way through his term of 16 years.

Your statement however was sweeping and did not distinguish between any prisoners.

If you had read any of my comments you would know I am not supporting coddling anyone. Carrot AND Stick. I am in support of punishing AND rehabilitating.

It seems to me that most here cannot see the other side of the argument or even agree that the other side is valid and you need both punishment AND rehabilitation.

Great_Milenko: darkyn: It will likely not catch on for a while. People are much more interested in vengeance than in rehabilitiation.

Yep. Our prison system is obviously broken, but the hate filled culture we live in (we're a christian nation!) means that any "reform" will basically result in concentration camps.

Yep. Because there are waaaay too many Libby and Proggy control freaks.

/No hate like Lib/Prog hate.
//Response to this post will prove it
///lack of response simply shows typical Lib-Monkey Syndrome (see no evil, hear no evil, etc.)

dericwater: KilaKitu: Obviously our current system doesn't work - see rate of recidivism - so we do need to look at alternative ways of transitioning people back into the greater society. Certainly no easy answers.

One aspect not really discussed in the article is the influence of culture on how prisons are operated. As mentioned by darkyn, our goal remains vengeance, and until we get serious about finding workable solutions to gangs, poverty, etc, we aren't likely to focus on how to transition offenders successfully and productively into the real world.

\stepping down from the soapbox

And once we go to for-profit prisons, expect to see even higher recidivism. Why? How do you make money if you don't have repeat customers?

We already have privately run prisons in the U.S. And the system was already rigged to encourage recidivism, what with the amount of money that government-run gets being based on number of prisoners.

This country is rapidly becoming a pale shadow of the Judge Dredd world where people are almost 'expected' to serve a term of time in the penal system.

ranchguy: Norway has 5 million people in the country.

308 million people here.

will not work.

yes, we have too many people in prison. Sorry, there are folks that cannot be rehab'd when you have a giant population.

The reoffending rates are percentages not raw numbers. Do you not understand how percentages work?

marsoft: As I have said repeatedly here. Carrot AND Stick.

I've never been in PMITA prison but I have spent a few nights in jail and got myself landed in the brig for a while when I was in the navy. Losing your freedom, being deprived of contact with friends and loved ones, and having someone else totally control every aspect of you life is a pretty big stick in my mind. If that isn't enough deterrent for someone, making them live like a dog probably isn't going to make much of a difference.

Aidan: TFA was quite long, and I'm dealing with a 5 year old who needs outside, so I may have missed something but...

Here's where my confusion lies: The inmates APPEAR to be given better opportunities and chances to improve their lives than a normal non-criminal person would, outside of prison. That seems more than a little unfair to me.

I realize that the inmates were taken from closed prisons so they should have every indication of what happens if they fark up hanging over their heads, but I can think of maybe 30% of American youth (wild-ass guess) who'd consider committing a crime or two to have access to those education opportunities, the chance to get away from poisonous home environments and deadbeat towns and...

Have I completely missed the point here?

I believe in Norway, such educational opportunities already exist for the general population. Education in Norway, much like everywhere in Europe, is free. It's not Club Fed. The prisoners have to catch, kill, butcher their own meats. They clean up after themselves. There aren't all the simple amenities that we take for granted. But then, the probably eat much healthier than the pre-processed junk we get. Imagine: artisanal sausages instead of that pre-processed Oscar Meyers stuff, filled with preservatives and dyes and whatever.

RandomExcess: Looks like the kind of place the libs would have sent bin Laden if they could have captured him.

Seems like a lib did something otherwise, as opposed to the Cons who left him alone.

OBBN: dericwater: KilaKitu: Obviously our current system doesn't work - see rate of recidivism - so we do need to look at alternative ways of transitioning people back into the greater society. Certainly no easy answers.

One aspect not really discussed in the article is the influence of culture on how prisons are operated. As mentioned by darkyn, our goal remains vengeance, and until we get serious about finding workable solutions to gangs, poverty, etc, we aren't likely to focus on how to transition offenders successfully and productively into the real world.

\stepping down from the soapbox

And once we go to for-profit prisons, expect to see even higher recidivism. Why? How do you make money if you don't have repeat customers?

Is it possible that the system doesn't work because people who commit crimes aren't able to be "cured". That they just found it is easier to go through life taking what they want instead of working for it?
I worked as a telcom tech in jails for years and have to say from what I saw most prisoners aren't the type that look as though they are waiting to turn their life around.

So, American convicts are somehow genetically/socially/mentally different enough from Norwegian convicts that being offered education and opportunity, respect and freedom, given a chance to live in a crime-free environment and learn a trade...wouldn't see a lower level of recidivism?

Your current knowledge of what our current prison system does to convicts merely demonstrates how badly the system fails those that it's supposed to be rehabilitating.

It's society's fault for failing these men by focusing so much on punishment and not enough on the underlying motivations for their crimes.

bogey: relcec: Skail: Damn. That's interesting. I wonder if it would ever work in the States, though of course, we'd never get the opportunity to try it, anyway, because of political dipshiattery.

they just removed all consequences from even being a murderer . you murder someone, then you get to go to vacation island, immediately learn to be a ferry worker, take classes at university, train for a new career, start a new career. I mean wtf are you talking about? there's no punishment at all. I'm not surprised the recidivism rate is better there for someone who murdered someone and got a paid vacation out of it than here where you are taken out of circulation for 25 years. and frankly, I don't give a shiat.

/I do think our prisons need to be cleaned up, but they shouldn't be a vacation.

I may be misunderstanding what you're saying but it sounds like you don't mind our prison system creating mentally damaged career criminals and turning them loose on society as long as you get your pound of flesh, consequences be damned.

no, your making shiat up and you know it.
the theory of retributive justice that supports traditional incarceration is perfectly acceptable and a reasonable principle that is easily understandable if you know anything about history or the law and didn't happen to be a f*cking retard.


In America, I don't want those who murder getting vacations out of the deal, at any price.

altinos: Apparently they only have 21 year "life" sentences. Quaint. What would they do for someone like Jared Loughner?

What will libs/progs do with Jared Loughner? On the one hand, he needs to be strung up on a lamppost for shooting a Dem congresscritter. OTOH, anything less than catered meals and a Temperpedic mattress for 5 years until parole would be cruel and unusual punishment. Oh, right, he's just nuts; 2 years of out-patient therapy should do it!

Oh, wait, he was programmed to do it by the Palin/Cheney Mindwash Machine (patent pending). Never mind.

Great Justice: marsoft: ThisNameSux: What kind of deterrent is going to prison when you know you'll be living the good life?

If living in a structured environment is "the good life" then why do so many people prefer freedom to a socialized system of labor where the authorities choose where you live and work?

I would suggest if people are willing to commit crimes to get into these facilities, we should have facilities like them for people who wish to voluntarily enter them anyway.

I think almost every country in the world does have such facilities for volunteers, they are called the armed forces.

Which armed force can I join to spend all my time on an island resort learning useful skills in a peaceful setting? The armed forces aren't there to provide training or aid to people who need it, they exist to kill people and break things in a strategic manner. Any job training provided to service members is a side effect of learning the skills needed to kill people and break things.

You have obviously not listened to any recruitment material or any recruiting officers recently. This is exactly how the armed forces are sold to kids. They also add the same message street gangs use, be a man, pick up a gun. In the armed forces your life is regulated, your housing is provided, so are all your meals and medical needs.

In the western world, a very low percentage of the forces actually ever see combat. Then with those who do, look at the casualty rates. It is very easy to say, that will never happen to me, I will never go to a combat zone, or if I do, I will never be shot.

This is not Vietnam. Do the math. How many people are in the armed forces total in the US? How many casualties have there been in the last 10 years? How many deaths?

relcec: bogey: relcec: Skail: Damn. That's interesting. I wonder if it would ever work in the States, though of course, we'd never get the opportunity to try it, anyway, because of political dipshiattery.

they just removed all consequences from even being a murderer . you murder someone, then you get to go to vacation island, immediately learn to be a ferry worker, take classes at university, train for a new career, start a new career. I mean wtf are you talking about? there's no punishment at all. I'm not surprised the recidivism rate is better there for someone who murdered someone and got a paid vacation out of it than here where you are taken out of circulation for 25 years. and frankly, I don't give a shiat.

/I do think our prisons need to be cleaned up, but they shouldn't be a vacation.

I may be misunderstanding what you're saying but it sounds like you don't mind our prison system creating mentally damaged career criminals and turning them loose on society as long as you get your pound of flesh, consequences be damned.

no, your making shiat up and you know it.
the theory of retributive justice that supports traditional incarceration is perfectly acceptable and a reasonable principle that is easily understandable if you know anything about history or the law and didn't happen to be a f*cking retard.


In America, I don't want those who murder getting vacations out of the deal, at any price.

The theory of retributive justice has failed. Utterly. You merely have to look at the state of this country and its penal system in order to see that.

Other measures must be examined and explored and implemented.

bookman: altinos: Apparently they only have 21 year "life" sentences. Quaint. What would they do for someone like Jared Loughner?

What will libs/progs do with Jared Loughner? On the one hand, he needs to be strung up on a lamppost for shooting a Dem congresscritter. OTOH, anything less than catered meals and a Temperpedic mattress for 5 years until parole would be cruel and unusual punishment. Oh, right, he's just nuts; 2 years of out-patient therapy should do it!

Oh, wait, he was programmed to do it by the Palin/Cheney Mindwash Machine (patent pending). Never mind.

Outpatient? Even if he gets NGRI, it's not posh.

marsoft: I was also clearly stating 16% when the average is 20% and the inmates are HAND PICKED with only 120 of them CANNOT be SEEN AS SIGNIFICANT or PROOF.

This statement, while it may seem wise, is actually horseshiat. Proof? No. Significant? Rather.

1. ZOMGHANDPICKED! The fact that they are doing a decent job selecting inmates that will benefit from such a program is actually kind of the point. It's not one-size-fits-all; this is made perfectly clear in TFA

2. ZOMG 120 PEOPLE!!1ELEVENTY! According to the article, this particular prison has 120 inmates, but there are three or four smaller ones around the country (phrasing is awkward). Let's say for argument's sake that the others are significantly smaller, bringing the total to 175. Also FTFA: Norway's entire prison population is around 3500. If my conservative estimate is workable, that means that 5% of their prison population are in programs like these. That's a bit more significant than a mere pilot program.

Also, a 20%-4% is also pretty significant. It's a 20% improvement, which ain't just noise in the data.

Justice? (new window)

Rationally speaking, the current penal system has failed at its task of preventing further crime by its inmates.

Other measures need to be adopted.

bogey: marsoft: As I have said repeatedly here. Carrot AND Stick.

I've never been in PMITA prison but I have spent a few nights in jail and got myself landed in the brig for a while when I was in the navy. Losing your freedom, being deprived of contact with friends and loved ones, and having someone else totally control every aspect of you life is a pretty big stick in my mind. If that isn't enough deterrent for someone, making them live like a dog probably isn't going to make much of a difference.

It is not much of a stick. You ever heard the term institutionalised? People actually reoffend to get back in. All your food is provided, your shelter, your medical needs.

Simply history and experience says that imprisonment is not punishment enough, it is simply locking the people away from the rest of society for a specific period.

That said, punishment alone is not enough, hope is required. The Carrot.

OBBN: dericwater: KilaKitu: Obviously our current system doesn't work - see rate of recidivism - so we do need to look at alternative ways of transitioning people back into the greater society. Certainly no easy answers.

One aspect not really discussed in the article is the influence of culture on how prisons are operated. As mentioned by darkyn, our goal remains vengeance, and until we get serious about finding workable solutions to gangs, poverty, etc, we aren't likely to focus on how to transition offenders successfully and productively into the real world.

\stepping down from the soapbox

And once we go to for-profit prisons, expect to see even higher recidivism. Why? How do you make money if you don't have repeat customers?

Is it possible that the system doesn't work because people who commit crimes aren't able to be "cured". That they just found it is easier to go through life taking what they want instead of working for it?
I worked as a telcom tech in jails for years and have to say from what I saw most prisoners aren't the type that look as though they are waiting to turn their life around.


I don't think it's a matter of inability to be cured, but the issue is larger than just how we imprison the offender. In northern Europe, the society/culture is very different from that found in many hotbeds of crime in the US, so unless we address inner city gangs, the hopelessness that pervades the truly impoverished, and the culture that encourages these, we're farked.

IMHO, we should probably move to some sort of better way to prepare prisoners for life outside, but that's not the end game, it's a small step in the right direction.

relcec: a reasonable principle that is easily understandable if you know anything about history or the law and didn't happen to be a f*cking retard.

I may be a f*cking retard but I do understand the concepts of civility and polite discussion. Ask your mom about it, she may be able to help you.

altinos: ha-ha-guy: The rehab aspect of the prison is something America needs. If you have a guy whose only skill is dealing drugs and you release him, guess what he gets a job doing?

That and since no one will hire a felon, he has to turn back to crime to put food on his family.

I've hired two. Hard decisions, especially the 2nd, but they paid off. First was in for manslaughter (got into a gang fight with fists and accidentally killed the other guy). Second was in for meth dealing and shooting at a cop (he missed). Both actually tried to turn their lives around while in prison, took courses, etc., which - along with their parole officer who I personally knew - were the deciding factors.

But I still think that all parolees should spend the first 6 months of their parole living at the homes of the parole board members. Just so that everyone knows who's on first....

marsoft: bogey: marsoft: As I have said repeatedly here. Carrot AND Stick.

I've never been in PMITA prison but I have spent a few nights in jail and got myself landed in the brig for a while when I was in the navy. Losing your freedom, being deprived of contact with friends and loved ones, and having someone else totally control every aspect of you life is a pretty big stick in my mind. If that isn't enough deterrent for someone, making them live like a dog probably isn't going to make much of a difference.

It is not much of a stick. You ever heard the term institutionalised? People actually reoffend to get back in. All your food is provided, your shelter, your medical needs.

Simply history and experience says that imprisonment is not punishment enough, it is simply locking the people away from the rest of society for a specific period.

That said, punishment alone is not enough, hope is required. The Carrot.

There is potentially a major difference between the US prison population, and the Norwegian one, something that can throw off all figures - how do the Norwegians handle the mentally ill? The numbers vary wildly, but in the US prisons... let's just say there are many people taking serious psychiatric medications, and these individuals have great difficulty ever successfully reintegrating with society. The US system is not particularly compassionate on that front, much to society's and the individual's detriment.

If the Norwegian pull their severely mentally ill out of their prison population, you're comparing apples and oranges.