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(NPR)   Philippine city holds mass circumcision for youths. Best deal given to families with coupon for 10% off   (npr.org) divider line 94
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2959 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 May 2011 at 4:39 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-05-08 11:15:37 AM
Kinda on topic, here's Herman Melville, on the practice of wearing the post-circumcision foreskin of the sperm whale:

http://books.google.com/books?id=urfKrxKSB5oC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=Melville+wear + a+whale+foreskin&source=bl&ots=4SAmdf-jrd&sig=_v6U7T-IoFG2Vqok8Eheea-bCn0&hl=en& ei=Q7PGTfrQLMfogQfS_4nNBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA #v=onepage&q&f=false
 
2011-05-08 11:19:43 AM

platedlizard: Until then, suck it up guys. Boohoo, you lost a bit of skin. Get over it.


Lady, I got circumcised when I was 25. It's more than a bit of skin, you git, and spreading propaganda to the contrary is not helpful. It's eminently comparable to cutting off the clitoral hood, not the clitoris itself. So think about that.
 
2011-05-08 11:43:05 AM

platedlizard: Damn, we're comparing male circumcision it female genital mutilation already?

Tell you what guys, when male circumcision commonly results in difficulty urinating, urinary infections, pain and bleeding during sex, and death during child birth then we'll talk.

Until then, suck it up guys. Boohoo, you lost a bit of skin. Get over it.


So you support Type 1A FGM for girls?
 
2011-05-08 11:49:00 AM

omgwtfetc: so that the kids will have less chance of getting an STD once they start banging everything that moves.


So let's take out everyone's tonsils and appendixes and install ear tubes. It'll lessen the chance of disease.
 
2011-05-08 12:03:44 PM
We'd better hurry up and settle this NFL lockout thing...Tim Tebow is going crazy over there.
 
2011-05-08 12:04:47 PM
Also, if we amputated all babies' arms at birth, it would completely eliminate broken arms suffered during sports later in life.
 
2011-05-08 12:07:51 PM

rel-yo: Can we please stop circumcising boys for no good reason?


"no good reason":

Randomized controlled trials in sub-Saharan Africa have shown that adult male circumcision reduces the risk of HIV acquisition in men by about 60%.

I can understand if you don't like the procedure for personal reasons, but science disagrees with your assessment. I'm guessing you're among the group that criticizes creationists or global warming deniers for their refusal to believe the results of scientific research -- until research comes up with a result you dislike for your own personal reasons.
 
2011-05-08 12:11:26 PM

Four Horsemen of the Domestic Dispute: yay, mutilation thread!!

/not really yay


I'm totally stealing THIS!
 
2011-05-08 12:27:58 PM

jshine: rel-yo: Can we please stop circumcising boys for no good reason?

"no good reason":

Randomized controlled trials in sub-Saharan Africa have shown that adult male circumcision reduces the risk of HIV acquisition in men by about 60%.

I can understand if you don't like the procedure for personal reasons, but science disagrees with your assessment. I'm guessing you're among the group that criticizes creationists or global warming deniers for their refusal to believe the results of scientific research -- until research comes up with a result you dislike for your own personal reasons.


If you cut the clitoris and labia off of a girl it lowers her chance of HIV infection too. Because she's been mutilated and nobody will touch her.

There is no good reason to cut off a mans foreskin. You can wear a condom. You can wash your junk and keep it from getting diseased. Both prevent illness and the spread of HIV.

If you want to cut a mans foreskin off, Wait until hes 21 and see how he feels about making that choice for himself as a man.

Let me give you a hint, They're not going to let you take a knife to the most sensitive part of their dick.
 
2011-05-08 12:29:52 PM

fluffy2097: jshine: rel-yo: Can we please stop circumcising boys for no good reason?

"no good reason":

Randomized controlled trials in sub-Saharan Africa have shown that adult male circumcision reduces the risk of HIV acquisition in men by about 60%.

I can understand if you don't like the procedure for personal reasons, but science disagrees with your assessment. I'm guessing you're among the group that criticizes creationists or global warming deniers for their refusal to believe the results of scientific research -- until research comes up with a result you dislike for your own personal reasons.

If you cut the clitoris and labia off of a girl it lowers her chance of HIV infection too. Because she's been mutilated and nobody will touch her.

There is no good reason to cut off a mans foreskin. You can wear a condom. You can wash your junk and keep it from getting diseased. Both prevent illness and the spread of HIV.

If you want to cut a mans foreskin off, Wait until hes 21 and see how he feels about making that choice for himself as a man.

Let me give you a hint, They're not going to let you take a knife to the most sensitive part of their dick.


All that is well & good, but the "no good reason" bit is demonstrably false in a scientific sense.
 
2011-05-08 12:32:56 PM

jshine: All that is well & good, but the "no good reason" bit is demonstrably false in a scientific sense.


Really? Bullshiat. Cultures all over the world don't mutilate their penises and have no problem with disease.

We should probably kill everyone who's born with a weak constitution to prevent the spread of disease. That will make our scientific numbers look much better. Who cares if we're chopping things off living people that they might want.
 
2011-05-08 12:33:05 PM
Gotta love people who are are able to be indoctrinated into believing that mutilating young males across the world as a possible preventative measure is either a good idea or humane. Or the trolls who for money or laughs just write it off as part of life.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2011-05-08 12:35:31 PM

Dr. Goldshnoz: Gotta love people who are are able to be indoctrinated into believing that mutilating young males across the world as a possible preventative measure is either a good idea or humane. Or the trolls who for money or laughs just write it off as part of life.


I think it's kind of like

"I never washed my dick even once growing up and it was always covered in filthy nastiness. So If I hadn't been circumcised I would have gotten an infection in my penis from not bathing. Therefore Every man in the world should have no choice but to have the tip of their dick cut off so that I can let my children roll around in the dirt and never bathe them.
 
2011-05-08 12:37:38 PM

jshine: All that is well & good, but the "no good reason" bit is demonstrably false in a scientific sense.


How does having an open wound on your penis where you have literally torn the skin off his dick make you safer?

Aren't open wounds a place that gets infected often?
 
2011-05-08 12:42:58 PM
www.jeffreysharp.org
Here is a thought. If you want to get your kids circumcised...go ahead. If you do not want to get your kids circumcised...then don't.
 
2011-05-08 12:48:16 PM

Tellingthem: Here is a thought. If you want to get your kids circumcised...go ahead. If you do not want to get your kids circumcised...then don't.


When did it become the parent's penis to chop off?

I'm pretty sure that's should be the child's choice.

and I'm VERY sure they're all gonna say no.
 
2011-05-08 01:01:17 PM

jshine: rel-yo: Can we please stop circumcising boys for no good reason?

"no good reason":

Randomized controlled trials in sub-Saharan Africa have shown that adult male circumcision reduces the risk of HIV acquisition in men by about 60%.

I can understand if you don't like the procedure for personal reasons, but science disagrees with your assessment. I'm guessing you're among the group that criticizes creationists or global warming deniers for their refusal to believe the results of scientific research -- until research comes up with a result you dislike for your own personal reasons.


By the same author:

Lack of male circumcision has also been
associated with sexually transmitted genital
ulcer disease and chlamydia, infant urinary tract
infections, penile cancer, and cervical cancer
in female partners of uncircumcised men...

A recent meta-analysis included
26 studies that assessed the association between
male circumcision and risk for genital ulcer
disease. The analysis concluded that there was a
significantly lower risk for syphilis and chancroid
among circumcised men...

She reports that minor bleeding is basically the only drawback.

Circumcision: A cure-all remedy; capable of curing diseases that didn't even exist when it was popularized.

Almost makes me wanna go out and get bits of my dick cut off.
 
2011-05-08 01:02:08 PM

fluffy2097: Tellingthem: Here is a thought. If you want to get your kids circumcised...go ahead. If you do not want to get your kids circumcised...then don't.

When did it become the parent's penis to chop off?

I'm pretty sure that's should be the child's choice.

and I'm VERY sure they're all gonna say no.


hyperbole aside. This is something that goes back thousands of years and is a tradition for many cultures and religions. Maybe it is an outdated and silly practice. But I feel that there are many other issues that demand more immediate attention than this. (drug abuse, alcoholism, homelessness, disease, starvation, war, slavery etc.) But if you feel the need to fight against circumcision instead. More power to ya man. I'm going to focus on the issues I feel pose a much bigger threat to society.

\I am cut
\\works fine
 
2011-05-08 01:10:29 PM

jshine: All that is well & good, but the "no good reason" bit is demonstrably false in a scientific sense.


The studies have not been replicable in the first world and there have been just a handful of studies which have found correlation where dozens of studies in the first world have found none.

If I test something to a P-Value of 0.05 one hundred times, odds are I will have 5 positive results. To then cling to those five positive results and claim "hey look, I've proven myself correct" is not valid science.
 
2011-05-08 01:11:38 PM
From the looks of the images, apparently no one told the physicians that a local anasthetic should be applied before slicing into the sensitive tissues. Circumcision done right after birth is about the best way, since the infant will not recall anything later on.

I suspect that doing this in a public even isn't all that good for the psych either.
 
2011-05-08 01:12:51 PM

Tellingthem: But I feel that there are many other issues that demand more immediate attention than this.


Obviously not, because you're wasting to spend time arguing against it.

Don't you have a war to stop?
 
2011-05-08 01:23:27 PM

ThematicDevice: Tellingthem: But I feel that there are many other issues that demand more immediate attention than this.

Obviously not, because you're wasting to spend time arguing against it.

Don't you have a war to stop?


Touche...
 
2011-05-08 01:28:20 PM

Tellingthem: This is something that goes back thousands of years and is a tradition for many cultures and religions


That is a wonderful reason to do anything.

People used to own slaves too. Maybe we should bring those back, I need someone to mow my lawn for me anyways, and it's a cultural and religious thing that's been done for thousands of years so it can't possibly be immoral.
 
2011-05-08 01:42:56 PM

ThematicDevice: The studies have not been replicable in the first world


We're talking about the Philippines here -- not a first-world country, and one where (due to a strong Catholic influence), condoms may be less common than in the US.
 
2011-05-08 01:45:39 PM

fluffy2097: jshine: All that is well & good, but the "no good reason" bit is demonstrably false in a scientific sense.

How does having an open wound on your penis where you have literally torn the skin off his dick make you safer?

Aren't open wounds a place that gets infected often?


The kids in TFA appear to be pre-teens, so odds are good that they are not having sex in the few weeks that it will take for the wound to heal. Having sex with an open wound on the genitals would be a risk factor in contracting AIDS or other STDs.
 
2011-05-08 01:51:20 PM

jshine: The kids in TFA appear to be pre-teens, so odds are good that they are not having sex in the few weeks that it will take for the wound to heal.


And are they going to shower enough to keep it clean during those weeks? Are they going to have access to clean water? fresh bandages? I bet at least one of them will end up with gangrene on their dick and it will fall off.

Yay unnecessary medical procedures! Nothing like an open wound in a 3rd world country to spread disease.
 
2011-05-08 01:53:31 PM

fluffy2097: jshine: All that is well & good, but the "no good reason" bit is demonstrably false in a scientific sense.

Really? Bullshiat. Cultures all over the world don't mutilate their penises and have no problem with disease.

We should probably kill everyone who's born with a weak constitution to prevent the spread of disease. That will make our scientific numbers look much better. Who cares if we're chopping things off living people that they might want.


The study I quoted relates to AIDs, where circumcision was shown to reduce the risk of transmission by ~60%. AIDs is not an old disease (absolute earliest identification of HIV around 1960), so it's not something that any cultures have traditionally adapted to deal with.

And I'd question your claim that "Cultures all over the world ... have no problem with disease."

upload.wikimedia.org

That map appears to indicate a "problem" to me.
 
2011-05-08 01:57:12 PM
That map has a lot more to do with the catholic church calling condoms evil then because people have the tips of their dick or not.

Do you really think that foreskins are the cause of the spread of AIDS in Africa? Because I've got a completely safe nuclear reactor I'd like you to buy in Fukushima japan....
 
2011-05-08 02:00:56 PM

fluffy2097: That map has a lot more to do with the catholic church calling condoms evil then because people have the tips of their dick or not.

Do you really think that foreskins are the cause of the spread of AIDS in Africa? Because I've got a completely safe nuclear reactor I'd like you to buy in Fukushima japan....


Any factor that significantly reduces the transmission rate of the disease will lower the number of people who are infected. I'm all in favor of condoms, too, obviously, but they require repeated & consistent usage. Circumcision does not.

...and, of course, the two approaches are not mutually-exclusive.
 
2011-05-08 02:02:36 PM

jshine: The study I quoted relates to AIDs, where circumcision was shown to reduce the risk of transmission by ~60%. AIDs is not an old disease (absolute earliest identification of HIV around 1960), so it's not something that any cultures have traditionally adapted to deal with.

And I'd question your claim that "Cultures all over the world ... have no problem with disease."


Whats the circumcision rate in Europe, what is their HIV rate?

jshine: The study I quoted relates to AIDs, where circumcision was shown to reduce the risk of transmission by ~60%.


You conduct enough studies eventually one of them will find your desired correlation. The study you cited is nothing more then evidence of that. It is one of dozens, which was selectively chosen because it was one of the few with a correlation.
 
2011-05-08 02:05:04 PM

fluffy2097: That map has a lot more to do with the catholic church calling condoms evil then because people have the tips of their dick or not.

Do you really think that foreskins are the cause of the spread of AIDS in Africa? Because I've got a completely safe nuclear reactor I'd like you to buy in Fukushima japan....


Also, what is it with the scientific double-standard? The arguments I'm encountering in this thread remind me of Bevets trying to discredit evolution, or one of the right-wingers hacking away at global warming evidence.

If you're determined to reach a particular conclusion, I'm sure that -- through a sustained process of iterative nit-picking -- you can eventually find some area of uncertainty in the data. ...but that doesn't reflect a even-minded & rational analysis of the data.
 
2011-05-08 02:08:48 PM

jshine: even-minded & rational analysis


LETS CUT THEIR DICKS OFF! WOOOOO!!!! I'M SO RATIONAL RIGHT NOW I WANNA MUTILATE SOMEONE! AIDS AIDS AIDS FEAR FEAR!
 
2011-05-08 02:09:00 PM

ThematicDevice: Whats the circumcision rate in Europe, what is their HIV rate?


More relevant to TFA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_Philippines

Officially, the Philippines is a low-HIV-prevalence country, with less than 0.1 percent of the adult population estimated to be HIV-positive. As of September 2008, the Department of Health (DOH) AIDS Registry in the Philippines reported 3,456 people living with HIV/AIDS (PLWHA)- www.plwha.org . UNAIDS estimates that 12,000 Filipinos were HIV-positive by the end of 2005.[1]

...

Several factors put the Philippines in danger of a broader HIV/AIDS epidemic. They include increasing population mobility within and outside of the Philippine islands; a conservative culture, adverse to publicly discussing issues of a sexual nature; rising levels of sex work, casual sex, unsafe sex, and injecting drug use.[1]

There is also high STI prevalence and poor health-seeking behaviors among at-risk groups; gender inequality; weak integration of HIV/AIDS responses in local government activities; shortcomings in prevention campaigns; inadequate social and behavioral research and monitoring; and the persistence of stigma and discrimination, which results in the relative invisibility of PLWHA. Lack of knowledge about HIV among the Filipino population is troubling. Approximately two-thirds of young women lack comprehensive knowledge on HIV transmission, and 90 percent of the population of reproductive age believe you can contract HIV by sharing a meal with someone.[1]
 
2011-05-08 02:14:20 PM

fluffy2097: jshine: even-minded & rational analysis

LETS CUT THEIR DICKS OFF! WOOOOO!!!! I'M SO RATIONAL RIGHT NOW I WANNA MUTILATE SOMEONE! AIDS AIDS AIDS FEAR FEAR!


www.seoboy.com

/okay, thread has devolved into shouting -- looks like we're done here
 
2011-05-08 02:27:50 PM

jshine:

That map appears to indicate a "problem" to me.


All the blood is draining to the lower half of Africa?
 
2011-05-08 02:31:07 PM
standbymemovie.webs.com

Wil is NOT amused.
 
2011-05-08 04:57:10 PM

jshine: fluffy2097: That map has a lot more to do with the catholic church calling condoms evil then because people have the tips of their dick or not.

Do you really think that foreskins are the cause of the spread of AIDS in Africa? Because I've got a completely safe nuclear reactor I'd like you to buy in Fukushima japan....

Also, what is it with the scientific double-standard? The arguments I'm encountering in this thread remind me of Bevets trying to discredit evolution, or one of the right-wingers hacking away at global warming evidence.

If you're determined to reach a particular conclusion, I'm sure that -- through a sustained process of iterative nit-picking -- you can eventually find some area of uncertainty in the data. ...but that doesn't reflect a even-minded & rational analysis of the data.


People are naturally sceptical, since the medical profession pushed this procedure with little justification except to make quick money for MANY decades before your study came out.

Just for fun, GIS "botched circumcision"...lawyer buddy of mine used to do insurance defense work for a very hard-nosed Boston lawyer.

Those were the ONLY cases he'd settle, basically for whatever the plaintiff wanted; everything else went to trial.

Now, consider the fact that there were enough of these cases to have a policy regarding them...
 
2011-05-08 05:39:39 PM
Lots of cities have held mass circumcisions, and it worked out all right. Just look at Shechem - oh, wait...
 
2011-05-08 05:42:42 PM

jshine: ThematicDevice: Whats the circumcision rate in Europe, what is their HIV rate?

More relevant to TFA:


Looks like you listed a number of things that the Philippine government should be addressing. Rather then relying on the pointless medical treatments charlatans like you are attempting to pass of as well established medical procedures. When AIDs spread in the US it did so when the vast majority of adult men were circumcised.

With enough studies you can prove just about everything. The medical community has been devoted to finding some justification for circumcision for generations, its resulted in hundreds of studies each one coming up with little to no justification. STIs have been pointed to for decades as well to no effect. They finally found a handful of studies which supported their conclusion and suddenly you want to ignore the decades of research because you finally got lucky with your sample size.

Study long enough and eventually you'll get the answer you want.
 
2011-05-08 08:57:25 PM

ThematicDevice: jshine: ThematicDevice: Whats the circumcision rate in Europe, what is their HIV rate?

More relevant to TFA:

Looks like you listed a number of things that the Philippine government should be addressing. Rather then relying on the pointless medical treatments charlatans like you are attempting to pass of as well established medical procedures. When AIDs spread in the US it did so when the vast majority of adult men were circumcised.

With enough studies you can prove just about everything. The medical community has been devoted to finding some justification for circumcision for generations, its resulted in hundreds of studies each one coming up with little to no justification. STIs have been pointed to for decades as well to no effect. They finally found a handful of studies which supported their conclusion and suddenly you want to ignore the decades of research because you finally got lucky with your sample size.

Study long enough and eventually you'll get the answer you want.



You don't like my last link -- fine. Granted, you didn't specify any particular arguments against the author's data, but this is Fark, the bar is low.

...so here's a review article of multiple studies -- not just one study. Oh look!, the results are the same:

Three randomized controlled trials in sub-Saharan Africa have shown that circumcision reduces the risk of acquiring HIV infection in men by approximately 60%.

/But all the story of the night told over,
And their minds transfigur'd so together,
More witnesseth than fancy's images,
And grows to something of great constancy,
But howsoever strange, and admirable.

--Shakespeare, A Midsummer Night's Dream, Scene V
 
2011-05-08 09:35:58 PM
jshine Quote 2011-05-08 01:42:56 PM
ThematicDevice: The studies have not been replicable in the first world

We're talking about the Philippines here -- not a first-world country, and one where (due to a strong Catholic influence), condoms may be less common than in the US.


Less common? You mean condoms that are available at most any corner convenience store and even in hotel rooms? Been there many times and that's nonsense. Yes, they're beyond crazy Catholic, but that doesn't translate to condoms anymore.
 
2011-05-08 09:39:10 PM

SirEattonHogg: Less common? You mean condoms that are available at most any corner convenience store and even in hotel rooms? Been there many times and that's nonsense. Yes, they're beyond crazy Catholic, but that doesn't translate to condoms anymore.


Good to know.
 
2011-05-08 09:44:58 PM
Having my first kid (a boy) pretty soon, and though the boyfriend and I are both non-religious, there's pressure from my Catholic family to christen, and from his Jewish family to circumcise. My family gave up easily enough when I told them 'no', but my guy's half of the family has used every conceivable pro-circumcision argument on me, whether baseless (it helps prevent bed-wetting?!) to somewhat true.

From everything I've read and been told by docs, yes it does help to prevent AIDS and some STDs. But I live in Canada, not Africa - we have access to condoms and sex-ed, and I plan on teaching responsibility and cleanliness (in other words, being a decent parent). Maybe in third-world countries circumcision is a good call, but I have trouble seeing it as anything other than unnecessary/cosmetic surgery on a newborn. Healthcare does not cover it in my province for this reason, my doctor does not recommend it since I'm not religious, and it just sounds goddamn brutal.
 
2011-05-09 12:34:55 AM

jshine: Three randomized controlled trials in sub-Saharan Africa have shown that circumcision reduces the risk of acquiring HIV infection in men by approximately 60%.

/But all the story of the night told over,
And their minds transfigur'd so together,
More witnesseth than fancy's images,
And grows to something of great constancy,
But howsoever strange, and admirable.
--Shakespeare, A Midsummer Night's Dream, Scene V



Methinks you need to go out and Google "risk homeostasis"...
 
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