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(Townhall.com)   Naivete and narcissism: What makes a liberal   (townhall.com) divider line 1193
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13794 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Aug 2003 at 9:29 AM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-08-12 11:14:20 AM
ElwoodCuse
They don't even need a revision; there's the simple inconsistency of "eye for an eye" that exists in everyone's bible.

Most misused Biblical quote ever. Read it in context. "Eye for an eye" means "the punishment shall not exceed the crime".

You may know this as "Amendment VIII".

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
 
2003-08-12 11:14:34 AM
Far as I can tell, the only difference between a liberal and a conservative is that the liberal loves people in groups but distains individuals, the conservative just the opposite.
 
2003-08-12 11:14:40 AM
dylan

Stop misusing the term "neo-conservative."
 
2003-08-12 11:14:41 AM
Let's make this clear.

Liberals (modern day version) believe in the power of government to solve problems. Usually this means we propose new laws, new restrictions, and new government agencies to address "unfairness". Make of that what you will.

Conservatives, traditionally, believe in the power of government to make things worse for the average person. They want as little government as they can make do with. This, of course, attracts people with money a lot.

HOWEVER - the Republican party of today is led, not by conservatives, but by radical right-wing crypto-fascists. They're not in favor of free markets, they support big business at the expense of small business. They like the government telling you what to do when it supports their religious agenda. And most importantly, they misrepresent their agenda because they know the public wouldn't buy it if they knew what it was.
 
2003-08-12 11:16:06 AM
Trixie, Ann Coulter has got nothing on me.

Dylan, a philosophy is just a way to organize possible answers, not an answer in itself.

Amendment 8 sounds like an excuse to lower taxes;)
 
2003-08-12 11:16:24 AM
Carl Sagan

/No point. Just felt like mentioning Carl Sagan.
 
2003-08-12 11:16:30 AM
happy daddy - you're right,and i apologize. let me replace that with "anyone that uses the word liberal as a derogatory term".
 
2003-08-12 11:16:56 AM
Prosperity thru the hard work of others - What makes a liberal
 
2003-08-12 11:17:28 AM
"GreyAlien
Got WMD?
Got Saddam?
Got Osama?
Got a job?
Got low gas prices?
Got civil liberties?
Got national security?

Who's naive again?"

Got blowjobs, who needs foreign policy.

Clinton blowjob ought to be the modern Godwin's Rule.
 
2003-08-12 11:17:50 AM
SavageWombat

Nice reasonable, objective assessment. Oh wait, no it wasn't.
 
2003-08-12 11:19:30 AM
Not like anyone cares....but the article has its points. I think really it depends on how the person is, in regards, to his political afflitions. Conservative is black & white, Liberal is the better for the entire group, and Libertarian is personal responsibility. More specifically, Conservatives see only two sides of the agrument, Liberals only see the benefits for the entire group, while Libertarians do not make judgments about individual actions unless it infringes on other's livelihood. I guess their are more political afflitations, but I just wanted to describe the three major political stances in the USA, currently.
/Flame On!
 
2003-08-12 11:19:44 AM
LoveInAction, you may be on to something:)

SavageWombat, though what you say is only partially true, it's sad.
 
2003-08-12 11:20:45 AM
Most misused Biblical quote ever. Read it in context. "Eye for an eye" means "the punishment shall not exceed the crime".

ARRRGGGHHH!!!!
Again. . . Am I the only one who can pick up a Bible and read?

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. (Matthew 7)

Jesus says, from his own very Jesus mouth, that "Eye for an eye" is obsolete. Unless of course you don't believe in that silly little thing called the Gospel.
 
2003-08-12 11:21:03 AM
Every argument a straw man. Way to go guys.
 
2003-08-12 11:21:13 AM
Liberals want to help the poor, but not let them help themselves, Conservatives want the poor to work hard to get rich, but they will be kicking the poor in the face until the poor get rich, if ever..
 
2003-08-12 11:21:46 AM
If you want to live like a republican, vote democrat.
 
2003-08-12 11:22:39 AM
Couldnt be a more accurate description of college profs, mostly humanities.
And for the record, before you do the neil and bob in front of clinton, realise that he passed more republicanesque legislation than most republicans. At one point he was called, tongue in cheek, the best republican president in years.....SO---to be a good Democrat, you have to legislate like a republican and hump like a democrat
 
2003-08-12 11:23:00 AM
HappyDaddy -

It wasn't meant to be objective.

It was meant to point out that every time some conservative says "I just want the government to stay out of my way", they should realize that the people they've been electing don't stand for that.

True conservatives would be voting Libertarian, I'd say.

If Republicans were conservatives, they would have:

a) Voted against agricultural subsidies
b) Voted against the steel tarriff
c) Voted against the Patriot Act
d) Voted against the Office of Homeland Security

and probably half of them would have opposed the Iraq war.
 
2003-08-12 11:23:12 AM
Haywood_Jabloeme
Got blowjobs...

Yup! : )
 
2003-08-12 11:24:29 AM
Atheist present could we please stop quoting a grim fairy tale...
 
2003-08-12 11:24:53 AM
Why not have a system where being poor doesn't kill you, but getting richer and working harder would be a motivation, so that if you screw up trying to succeed once, you don't die trying to fix your life? Kind of like capitalism, only with a trampoline that floats over the poverty level. Free market capitalism, only non-lethal.
 
2003-08-12 11:25:21 AM
America sucks. Two parties aren't cutting it.
 
2003-08-12 11:25:36 AM
 
2003-08-12 11:25:41 AM
Actually, Occam's Razor doesn't tell you if you're right. It tells which possible solution to look at first. Sometimes the complex solution is actually the correct one. In order to find out, you have to actually test the solution. This is where examining one's beliefs comes in. If you assume the simplest solution is always the right one, you'll wind up believing a lot of wrong things.

The simplest solution is always the correct one. A "true" solution that looks complex superficially is simplistic on the lowest levels.

A complex solution:
Every apple falls to earth because each apple is imbued with a mechanism that pulls it toward the earth.

Simple solution:
The earth pulls each apple to itself.

As you can see, the "complex" solution in this example requires many apples, all with "working parts," which all must work perfectly in order to get the desired result-- whereas any failure of any apple's mechanism would break the rule that "apples fall to earth."

However, suggesting the earth pulls them leaves only one item with "working parts," which is the simpler solution, as it accounts for the precise behavior of all apples.

Another quick example:
Socialism (Complex solution): A mechanism that requires constant maintenance because it forces the people to act against their evolved programming (i.e. survival of the fittest). Because this maintenance can never be upheld, socialsm fails to raise the standard of living.

Capitalism (Simple solution): A mechanism that exploits the people's evolved programming, and thus requires no maintenance. Since no maintenance is required, the standard of living expands naturally.

(But I'm not gonna argue about Occham's razor here... I get my fill of that with the local know-it-alls)
 
2003-08-12 11:25:54 AM
Just remember in this day in time the most politically incorrect thing is to say that a certain behavior/lifestyle/etc will send someone to hell. No longer can you say someone that they are wrong, that something is wrong, or someone is responsible for choosing to do wrong.

Everyone is right and no one is wrong. Do what makes you feel good now no matter what the impact.....ugh.

Post modernism and "relativity" will fade into obscurity the structure and foundations that this country was built upon.
 
2003-08-12 11:26:04 AM
Savagewombat-
i think you are mistaking lack or government for lack of involvement in government. Libertarians believe in letting the states, and communities legislate. The iraq war was an international conflict. Two sovereign countries, not two sovereign states.....
 
2003-08-12 11:27:12 AM
Hrm. I think I'll read the flamewar I'm sure this has turned into later. For now, I'll say that while I'm sure this doesn't explain many people, at least offhand, this seems to make sense for many of the folks I can't stand debating with. See my profile for a few. :)

~Dalcius
 
2003-08-12 11:27:15 AM
2003-08-12 10:04:56 AM pontechango
Question to the conservatives:
Are people inherently evil or does something in the world make them evil? Like some kind of environmental contaminant or virus or something.
If not then people must be inherently good or evil.
Thus, can a fetus be evil at conception?


First of all, you don't get a fetus at conception. You get a fertilized egg. Secondly, all children are born ignorant. It takes a parent's guidance to help the child distinguish between what is right and what is left, I mean wrong. Children who have parents that don't guide them will more than likely grow up to be the morally confused liberals we see yelling about nothing today.
 
2003-08-12 11:27:41 AM
Rosencrantz:

The sad thing is that we have let a small group of people pull everyone into a mindset of Conservative vs. Liberal, Right vs. Left.

They've sort of said there are two sides to the fence. They have forced people to choose which side to stand on. So you see yourself as being on the side of the fence with the vain hippies. The result is that you are tempted to disparage "the left" because there are some nuts standing on your side of the fence.

You've been fooled into believing that your side of the fence is supposed to be unified. (You've let someone else decide that there are only two groups. Moreover, you've let someone else decide which group you are in.) In truth, the fence analogy is inappropriate. America is a forum of ideas and opinions, not a two-sided stadium of fanatics. We're all mingling and overlapping in our opinions.

The Neo-Conservatives have tricked us into polarizing. And some of us end up on a pole with weirdos, and that at times fills us with doubt about our own personal ideas and any new idea that comes from someone on that pole. It's a brilliant tactic by the Neo-Conservatives. Puritans, Joe McCarthy, and street gangs have used this tactic well. It's the "with us or against us" strategy. And everyone -- regardless of political opinion can be sucked in by it. It's an easy trap to step into.
 
2003-08-12 11:27:50 AM
Let Mr. Gore sum it up nicely:

"The administration has developed a highly effective propaganda machine to imbed in the public mind mythologies that grow out of the one central doctrine that all of the special interests agree on, which -- in its purest form -- is that government is very bad and should be done away with as much as possible -- except the parts of it that redirect money through big contracts to industries that have won their way into the inner circle."

Word to your mother.
 
2003-08-12 11:27:51 AM
Haywood_Jabloeme

[Monopoly Guy]

Evil republican patriarch


Actually, that's true. The key to understanding modern liberalism is Antitrust legislation and state-sanctioned imposition of competition on non-natural monopolies.
 
2003-08-12 11:30:25 AM
Robarahz
What, You think Just because Gore can use big words he's cool...

Well at least Bush had the strategery to win an election

/evil moderate with a can of gasoline
 
2003-08-12 11:30:32 AM
2003-08-12 11:24:53 AM Cthulus_Toaster


Why not have a system where being poor doesn't kill you, but getting richer and working harder would be a motivation, so that if you screw up trying to succeed once, you don't die trying to fix your life? Kind of like capitalism, only with a trampoline that floats over the poverty level. Free market capitalism, only non-lethal.


I've been saying that for years.
 
2003-08-12 11:30:44 AM
I do believe that "An eye for an eye" is Hammurabi's law, not biblical.

Clinton was a gooddemocrat, but he still screwed the military over on funding. He was an asshat.

Actually, I think the office of homeland security is a good thing because it consolidates a lot of bureaucracies down to one. It is a step in the right direction.

Cthulus, you're talking about the socialist concept of a social floor. It sounds good, but when you implement it, many people would rather lay on the floor than work, and they drag everyone else down. I think America has enough generosity that bare needs of poor people can be taken care of by charity. No one starves in America--even the poor people are fat.
 
2003-08-12 11:30:54 AM
Codegod
Complex: Computers work because transistors, resistors, capacitators, and wire arranged in complex patterns allows millions of bit states.

Simple: God makes computers work.
 
2003-08-12 11:31:16 AM
haplo53

man, what is it with these people's obsession with liberals? It's getting to the point where I don't think liberals actually exist; they're just something that republicans made up because they like feeling angry all the time. "Waaahh! Liberals! Waaahhh! The PC Thought Police! Waaahhh! I'm being oppressed by hippies!" Jeez, stop crying already. Nobody gives a shiat.

I now think that the leading conservative writers of our day (not to mention the knuckleheads that frequent this website) use the word "liberal" more than they use the words "the" and "a."


This deserves a reprint, if for no other reason than the "I'm being oppressed by hippies!" line. LOL! Good job, haplo53!!!! :D :D
 
2003-08-12 11:31:16 AM
CodeGod
I suggest you go out and actually study some science. You should also really look up the principle of parsimony (or Occam's Razor) because I don't think you quite understand it). Further, your two arguments are total non-sequitors.
 
2003-08-12 11:31:17 AM
Boys and girls biatching about GWB and the economy. The president can do jack about the economy other than create some stupid corp so kids can go out and stop forest fires that don't need stopping or other meaningless wastes of my tax dollars.

Did you ever stop to consider higher education is being offered with loans that carry about -0- in interest costs. If your unemployed and the natural business cycle is still bottoming out may we suggest more education to improve your marketability and bide time while this things runs it's course.



Can't get an education. He and his cronies have done nothing to help the high cost of education in this country every since they have been in office.

By the way, the president can influence the economy more than you think. Read an economics book. Giving the corporate interests even more power than their big bank accounts already have given them is insane, yet it still happens every day.

Sit down. And shut up. A simple argument cannot be made against the complexities of America.
 
2003-08-12 11:31:46 AM
[b]The simplest solution is always the correct one. [/b]

That's probably the stupidest thing that's ever been posted here at Fark, and that's saying something.

Simple solution: The Earth is Flat, and rests on the back of a giant turtle.
 
2003-08-12 11:32:01 AM
I for one love that Prager begins by saying "I have long believed that most people, liberal or conservative, mean well," and promptly advances to complain that "the heart of liberalism is the naive belief that people are basically good."

hmmm....scratches head...if he thinks most people mean well, but not that they are "basically good," then how the heck can most of them mean well, exactly?
 
2003-08-12 11:32:39 AM
AptQ258 : "As a liberal, I'd have to say he's pretty on target. Oversimplified, but hey, that's conservatives for you: always looking for simple dualities of good versus bad, right versus wrong....conservatives are more intellectually child-like than liberals, I'd counter. But liberals are more emotionally child-like."

I'd like to counter this "democrats are more intellectual" viewpoint. You can say this because conservatives 1) Identify with simplistic concepts 2) Seemingly ignore gray areas 3) IYO, many are blindly religious. As a conservative, I can tell you that having a simple outlook on an issue does not come from ignoring its complexities - rather from synthesizing its complexities.

If someone is motivated by feelings, they'll whine about everything and then implement a policy for the entire nation b/c their grandma has to buy prescription drugs instead of dogfood. Conservatives will take those things into account, but that would never be the basis of a decision. Conservatives would be hung up on things like, "does the policy actually work" and "do the costs outweigh the benefits" etc. Lo and behold when the policy doesn't pass they get demonized for being simplistic and not receptive to the needs of your grandma.

Iraq War, Tax Cuts, too simple to be correct? I doubt it.
 
2003-08-12 11:32:52 AM
Liberals are so naive, they listen to Jack Van Impe. Oh, sorry.
 
2003-08-12 11:33:07 AM
The funniest thing is, that all of the examples of what Democrats wish to burden our country with are found in Europe and California.

Yet, they continue to peep as if the lights were still off.

Hey, I don't care really. As a Libertarian, both parties pick and choose what rights they like and what rights they do not like, and that irritates me to no end. They're both guilty, although not equally. Democrats also crush the spirit of people in order to make them victims. Their social welfare programs have made entire ethnic groups into oppression-minded drones. Everyone's a victim. A rugged, hardworking, confident person is a Democrat's worse nightmare.

On the other hand, the Republicans can't wait until everyone is retna scanned coming out of the bathroom, just in case the bomb they dropped wasn't brown. Republicans are very tight with information. You have to fight for disclosure of any petty little bit of information, and they are all to willing to lock up savages without a trial, even though our Constitution says otherwise, and our Constitution was written and amended with certain rights, FOR A REASON.

Since I can take care of myself, I don't need Democrats. They can whither and die for all I care, but they keep taxing me to death! Bastards.

Now, Republicans worry me when it comes to prying into my life, but they have been kept in check, so far. No thanks to the Democrats, who cry that the sky has fallen so often, that when it does, nobody will be listening.
 
2003-08-12 11:33:16 AM
Kae,
No, I do not blieve in "that silly little thing called the Gospel."

Why are some parts of your bible quotable/followable and others not? Why do you even bother with that thing? Sounds like that work of fiction needs a good editor.
 
2003-08-12 11:33:20 AM
OK, let's translate then, for those who don't like "big words".

When Gore said "The administration has developed a highly effective propaganda machine to imbed in the public mind mythologies that grow out of the one central doctrine that all of the special interests agree on, which -- in its purest form -- is that government is very bad and should be done away with as much as possible -- except the parts of it that redirect money through big contracts to industries that have won their way into the inner circle."

He meant "Bush and his buddies lie to you all the time, to get you to think that the government is bad, except for the parts that make his buddies rich."
 
2003-08-12 11:33:20 AM
TheConvincingSavant

First of all, you don't get a fetus at conception.


Make that FROM conception. The technical term is zygote.


Secondly, all children are born ignorant.

So, you're saying evil is a product of the parenting? What if a child grows up as an orphan?


It takes a parent's guidance to help the child distinguish between what is right and what is left, I mean wrong.

Oh, heh, you're so funny, Savant.


Children who have parents that don't guide them will more than likely grow up to be the morally confused liberals we see yelling about nothing today.

So, you're saying that evil is a product of "moral confusion"? Where does evil come from?
 
2003-08-12 11:33:20 AM
2003-08-12 11:25:41 AM CodeGod


Actually, Occam's Razor doesn't tell you if you're right. It tells which possible solution to look at first. Sometimes the complex solution is actually the correct one. In order to find out, you have to actually test the solution. This is where examining one's beliefs comes in. If you assume the simplest solution is always the right one, you'll wind up believing a lot of wrong things.

The simplest solution is always the correct one. A "true" solution that looks complex superficially is simplistic on the lowest levels.

A complex solution:
Every apple falls to earth because each apple is imbued with a mechanism that pulls it toward the earth.

Simple solution:
The earth pulls each apple to itself.


Actually, not getting into the flame war, but the apple and the earth both pull at each other. The apple's just smaller.
 
2003-08-12 11:33:27 AM
"Drives you crazy, doesn't it? You know why? Because you liberals are hung up on fairness. You actually try to respect all points of view! But we conservatives feel no need whatsoever to consider other views. We know we're right, so why bother? Because we have no tradition of tolerance, we're unencumbered by doubt. So we roll you guys every time!"
---Chase Talbott III
 
2003-08-12 11:33:54 AM
Complex: Computers work because transistors, resistors, capacitators, and wire arranged in complex patterns allows millions of bit states.

Simple: God makes computers work.


Not so. Because I can't build something that looks like a computer, and ask God to make it work, and expect it to work, every time.

Consistency is the hallmark of the "simplest" argument. You're simply not considering all the factors. If God made one computer work, and not another, that's a complex solution, because it's not across all boards-- "God" cannot be classified in a "makes computers work" category, because He desides when and where, and can't be invoked at will. That's complexity.

Anyway, I really can't get into this argument, this is a flame war, and I have my fill of the "what's simple, what's not" arguments with various people, not a few of whom have given the same argument you have.
 
2003-08-12 11:34:33 AM
Let Al Gore Explain: "I invented the internet"

*throws a tomato at him from the back of the room*

Al gore makes computers work.
 
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