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(Townhall.com)		Naivete and narcissism: What makes a liberal (townhall.com)		1193
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13789 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Aug 2003 at 9:29 AM | Favorite | share:

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SpawnOfSarcasm		2003-08-12 10:50:19 AM

Even us liberals dislike Al Sharpton.

Yellowbeard		2003-08-12 10:52:24 AM

HaloLauren
Me thinks the lady doth protest too much.

HaloLauren		2003-08-12 10:52:25 AM

SgtArkie;)

Ayn Rand found the truth, and philosophy professors hate her for it.

Philosophy is well and good, but it's hardly something to get a degree in. Study it on your own time. Use college to get some skills.

Unless you're going to law school or something and just passing time in undergrad.

St.Alfonzo		2003-08-12 10:52:51 AM

2003-08-12 10:43:46 AM HaloLauren

Yes, I am a college student. I am lucky enough to have found a philosophy that has validated me and told me I was right all along. I agree with most every tenet of it, if not the way Rand led her life or applied some of it.

Here we have arrived at the essential core of conservatism: Don't examine your beliefs to see if they are correct, just grab on to a philosophy that validates them and insist that they are correct because you believe them. Part of the idea of liberalism is that you need to bea able to re-examine what you believe, and perhaps even change your beliefs, as new information comes in. It's called progress, or growth. Glad you're getting your money's worth out of college.

CodeGod		2003-08-12 10:53:22 AM

that there, is the problem. unless you're in real tight with God, you don't "know" anything for sure, hence philosphy, where you discuss the possibilities.

There's an easy way to know if you're right: it's called "Occham's Razor." You cut the complexity out of anything until the simplest solution remains. (Liberals hate that... complexity is how they say "The car won't start? Don't look at the engine of the car until you check the tire pressure.")

Cheeses of Nazareth		2003-08-12 10:53:27 AM

Sorry. I really think that philosophy is a pretty shallow and useless major. I mean, before Descartes, you folks didn't even know that you existed, right?

Yellowbeard		2003-08-12 10:53:36 AM

HaloLauren
Philosophy is well and good, but it's hardly something to get a degree in. Study it on your own time. Use college to get some skills.

This from a psychology major.

SgtArkie		2003-08-12 10:54:01 AM

halolauren i hear this all the time about libertarians "legalize MJ". I am one and I attend our states meetings all the time. NOT ONCE has anyone suggested we put together a bill to legalize dope in our state. We focused on silly things like getting rid of our state's food tax./sarcasm but to no good damn state goons put it across to the voters that it would hurt schools if we didnt tax food.Our next failed attempt will be to do something about "special elections" you know during the general election some wonk wants to increase your taxes it get voted down. so they just reschedule the vote for july 10 at 2pm and 4 people vote on it. It should be a percentage of registered voters.

dylan		2003-08-12 10:54:13 AM

i am quite anti-religion (or at least against the organizations and the bullshnit they sell) and only mentioned god to make a point.

i haven't read rand yet (coincidentally, i just bought my first of her novels a week or so ago and haven't started it yet).

GrandstandFoolosopher		2003-08-12 10:54:54 AM

GoblinKing
Well, like I say in my profile...I have some conservative viewpoints...and I'm pretty huge on personal responsibility (at least, in the sense that all the litigation going on in this country is turning our collective brains to mush)...and either way, I can't argue with labor reform...I mean...who WOULD try to say that labor unions aren't bloated and corrupt? Anybody? Anybody?
I also grew up with an ultra-conservative best friend...you learn the art of philosophical compromise.

HaloLauren		2003-08-12 10:54:58 AM

Pollexabator, good thought. I would add that having money taken away from you to go to another person brings out the worst in people. Children are selfish because it is human nature to be selfish, and impossible to change. Objectivism tells how selfishness can work in the favor of man and mankind. Check out Rand's "The Virtue of Selfishness".

SofaKingCool		2003-08-12 10:55:02 AM

findthefish		2003-08-12 10:55:21 AM

Ha! Only a cheap labor conservative could write such drivel.

TheGoblinKing		2003-08-12 10:57:00 AM

Aw well...time to stimulate the economy more and get back to work.

HaloLauren,

Keep up the good fight on Rand. Just because left wing professors (are there any other kind?) disdain her doesn't mean that she is a fraud.

Y'all have a good day!

/signing off from beautiful South Carolina

SpawnOfSarcasm		2003-08-12 10:57:35 AM

The truth is completely subjective.

Yikes, one of my good friends switched from engineering to philosophy. Funny how he's a hell of a lot happier and much more sane now.

dylan		2003-08-12 10:57:35 AM

"Liberals hate that... complexity is how they say "The car won't start? Don't look at the engine of the car until you check the tire pressure"

what the hell are you babbling about?

please look up the definition of a strawman sometime and spend at least a couple of minutes thinking about how this affects your outlook on the world, specifically when it comes to how you express anger and fear.

NeoAnderthal		2003-08-12 10:57:36 AM

Liberalism tends to have a more compassionate view of humanity - if that's naive, so be it. If compassion is throwing money, that was taken from others, at a problem with little regard for the results of the handout, then you have a point.

So if liberals think all people are basically good, do conservatives believe that all people are essentially evil?? - Evil, no. People cant be trusted to react with YOUR best interests in mind. Its not a bad idea to keep a watch over your shoulder. There are evil people out there though, to deny that wont make them go away.

Yep, we believe that people that are truly down and out should not have to starve to death or have their families broken apart. We liked the system so much, we reformed it in 1996, so it is no longer abused and those taking advantage of it do have to contribute and get back on their feet. The problem is, you didnt fix the problem. If it were up to you (when it was) the problem would be allowed to grow to an even larger one. How many generations were left on welfare because it was better paying than private sector jobs? If you needed a raise, you just crank out another child. No work ethic. Families were broken up to increase monthly payments from the compassionate government. No sense of pride for supporting your family. Hell, the liberals even had monthly publications praising these people for being on the dole.

Theres your liberalism. Growing government one tax at a time.

wh0mprat		2003-08-12 10:57:55 AM

Ground breaking and thought provoking. The author has made many new and valuable points that have never been said before.

/sarcasm

GrandstandFoolosopher		2003-08-12 10:58:36 AM

Personally, I don't agree with Ayn Rand, HaloLauren ...but I won't knock her, either. I'll just respectfully say I disagree with you :)
I never could really get into philosophy, but Hobbes is always a fun read.

HaloLauren		2003-08-12 10:58:45 AM

StAlfonzo, I evaluated the philosophy and I continue to evaluate it. It doesnt change..and...I'm...mezmorized by the gyrating girl...

Anyway, SgtArkie. Not all libertaroans focus on MJ, just most. I commend you for your work to simplify government.

Psychology is an ever-changing science with solid facts to work with and lives to better. Philosophy is mostly smoke and mirrors and pseudo-intellectuals (not necessarily you).

Dylan, what book did you get?

Nightsweat		2003-08-12 10:58:46 AM

So far, I think SofaKingCool has put forth the best argument.

What it's for, I'm not sure, but I'll continue to study it closely.

CodeGod		2003-08-12 10:58:54 AM

please look up the definition of a strawman sometime and spend at least a couple of minutes thinking about how this affects your outlook on the world, specifically when it comes to how you express anger and fear.

Is "S T R A W M A N" the new spelling of STFU?

you express anger and fear.

Heh

undflickertail		2003-08-12 11:00:06 AM

2003-08-12 09:37:33 AM ElwoodCuse

I wish Fark would filter "liberal" already. In this day and age it's impossible to pigeonhole people politically and the word is often simply used to mean "someone who disagrees with me".

I agree, I think Fark should filter "liberal" to "Progressive".

Just my 2 cents.

Darkeldar		2003-08-12 11:00:07 AM

Cheap Labor Conservatives...Cheap Labor Conservatives...Cheap Labor Conservatives...Cheap Labor Conservatives...Cheap Labor Conservatives...Cheap Labor Conservatives...Cheap Labor Conservatives...Cheap Labor Conservatives...Cheap Labor Conservatives...

Remember the new mantra

dylan		2003-08-12 11:00:40 AM

took me a minute to even remember. i have a bad habit of impulse buying when it comes to books and only reading them months later. anyways, it's atlas shrugged.

Ryanhutto		2003-08-12 11:00:57 AM

we all have to be a little more middle of the road. I consider myself a moderate who leans slightly right, because of my views on Affirmative action, Gun Control, and Medicaid. But I also have very differing views from the rest of conservatives, on Abortion, Gay rights, so why don't we all try to be a little more moderate about the way we look at things

McCain in 2004!!!

loungelizard		2003-08-12 11:01:06 AM

"How do I feel about it?" or "How do I show the most compassion?" not "What is right?" or "What is wrong?" For the liberal, right and wrong are dismissed as unknowable, and every person chooses his or her own morality. Sounds like a certain religion i have heard of... Satanism.

vygramul		2003-08-12 11:01:26 AM

SofaKingCool has a way of pointing out the things in life that are more important than this liberals vs conservatives BS.

LoveInAction		2003-08-12 11:01:52 AM

SofaKingCool, I'd like to officially label your post as "Love In Action" - now THAT'S a philosophy we all can sink our teeth into!

/gawd, what wouldn't I have given to have seen Ayn Rand undulate like that back in the fifties!

lareine		2003-08-12 11:02:16 AM

Would it be so difficult to replace the Ten Commandments with the Bill of Rights? Is this not America?

Yellowbeard		2003-08-12 11:02:28 AM

HaloLauren
Just out of curiousty, how many philosophy courses have you taken? (And I'll own up that I have not taken any psychology courses - though I do have one and nearly a second degree in another social science. I actually agree that psychology is a science - though I would balk at saying there are many hard facts in the field.)

ArmadilloTamer		2003-08-12 11:02:57 AM

Every college student needs to at least read Atlus Shrugged during their studies. The problem is that the Liberal elite have taken control of our institutions and branded Rand as a thoughtcriminal for not following their rhetoric. I'm sure in 10 years, all of Rand's writings will be banned from colleges, and will be replaced by pamphlets that tell us how the holocaust never happened.

haplo53		2003-08-12 11:03:22 AM

man, what is it with these people's obsession with liberals? It's getting to the point where I don't think liberals actually exist; they're just something that republicans made up because they like feeling angry all the time. "Waaahh! Liberals! Waaahhh! The PC Thought Police! Waaahhh! I'm being oppressed by hippies!" Jeez, stop crying already. Nobody gives a shiat.

I now think that the leading conservative writers of our day (not to mention the knuckleheads that frequent this website) use the word "liberal" more than they use the words "the" and "a."

Savian		2003-08-12 11:03:25 AM

I hereby nominate SofaKingCool for best post of the day. Hell, make it the week. It's hypnotic...what's going on with her hands? They move as if detached from her body!

HaloLauren		2003-08-12 11:03:46 AM

The only dirtier word than 'liberal' is 'progressive'.

If they filter it, I'm switching to "Hippie".

Cheap labor...right. Another tenet of objectivism and true libertarians is that there should be [i]no minimum wage[/i]. I did see the article you're referring to, though;)

Dylan- READ IT NOW! I contend that the great American novel has been written and that book is it!

modernhamlet		2003-08-12 11:03:57 AM

Townhall.com is the first truly interactive community on the Internet to bring Internet users, conservative public policy organizations, congressional staff, and political activists together under the broad umbrella of "conservative" thoughts, ideas and actions.

/stfu

GrandstandFoolosopher		2003-08-12 11:04:32 AM

SofaKingCool
I dunno, it looks...creepy...like, she looks 12. Gwoss.

The King of Toast		2003-08-12 11:06:51 AM

Flambe!!!

St.Alfonzo		2003-08-12 11:06:54 AM

2003-08-12 10:53:22 AM CodeGod

There's an easy way to know if you're right: it's called "Occham's Razor." You cut the complexity out of anything until the simplest solution remains. (Liberals hate that... complexity is how they say "The car won't start? Don't look at the engine of the car until you check the tire pressure.")

Actually, Occam's Razor doesn't tell you if you're right. It tells which possible solution to look at first. Sometimes the complex solution is actually the correct one. In order to find out, you have to actually test the solution. This is where examining one's beliefs comes in. If you assume the simplest solution is always the right one, you'll wind up believing a lot of wrong things.

HaloLauren		2003-08-12 11:06:55 AM

I have taken zero (0) philosophy courses.

Kaeishiwaza		2003-08-12 11:06:58 AM

At the heart of liberalism is the naive belief that people are basically good.

Hence the liberal attempt to either erase the Judeo-Christian code or at least remove its influence from public life.

"You have heard that it was said 'You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (Matthew 6)

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:37-39)

I just wish, for one moment, that these faux-Christian Conservative bastards would sit down and read the friggin Bible. The idea that man is, by nature, good and loving is a Christian ideal. That we sin and are sinners can only be accounted for by the love which we have for God which we show through our love of man. Any Christian should know that the New Testament teachings of Christ trump the Old Testament Ten Commandments. If it weren't that the New Coveneant supplanted the Old Covenant, I would like to see all the "Thou shall not. . ." Christians start eating Kosher and wearing long beards. You can't have the Ten Commandments (and all the nice anti-gay stuff in the Old Testament they seem to enjoy) without all the other 'unfortunate' non-pork eating dictates.

This type of person distorts religion to make an argument, when it is so obvious he knows nothing on the religion itself. And he uses his distortion to argue against loving our fellow man, a wholly un-Christian thing to do. If there is a greater way to take the Lord's name in vain, I know not what it is.

TrixieBelasco		2003-08-12 11:07:00 AM

The only dirtier word than 'liberal' is 'progressive'.

If they filter it, I'm switching to "Hippie".

Oh, come on, get over yourself. Ann Coulter you're not.

/sorry to bring her up twice in one topic...ouch.

LoveInAction		2003-08-12 11:08:21 AM

She doesn't look 12, she looks like Marsha Brady at 18, wearing a dark wig and working her way through college (inspired by the time-honored Objectivist philosophy of "get out there and shake yer money-maker).

CapnWacky		2003-08-12 11:09:54 AM

Retarded... this article is a waste. I almost thought he had an interesting point at the begining... that good intentions don't always mean good results, but usually unintended consequences. This would be a good critique of both the large, heavy-regulation government of the left, and the large, spend-happy, war and subsidy, "faith based outreach program" government of Bush.

However, the author then somehow turned around and made the leap to endorsing the ten commandments in schools and a strict pro-life stance. Talk about naive...

MurkytheTrout		2003-08-12 11:10:54 AM

Greed and fear of change: what makes a conservative.

GreyAlien		2003-08-12 11:11:03 AM

Got WMD?
Got Saddam?
Got Osama?
Got a job?
Got low gas prices?
Got civil liberties?
Got national security?

Who's naive again?

HappyDaddy		2003-08-12 11:11:27 AM

I want to know what she's saying. It's what she says that matters, or not.

jccalhoun		2003-08-12 11:12:27 AM

I like how he starts off saying "I think most people mean well" and then goes on to say "liverals think most people are good people." hmmmm he's a liberal!!!!!

dylan		2003-08-12 11:12:34 AM

lauren- i will. my only point for you was to keep an open mind, as we may never get all the answers.

codegod- a strawman is when you assign characteristics to your opponent/target to make it easier to tear them down. as the characteristics are not necessarily true, you are basically creating this cariacature of your opponent, pointing at the faults you assign it and assuming this shows why your opponenet is wrong. basically, it's when you incorrectly assume or generalize things to make an argument. the neo-conservative view of "liberals" is almost always a strawman bashing party. (not that it doesn't happen the other way around, mind you)

GrandstandFoolosopher		2003-08-12 11:13:33 AM

Kaeishiwaza
Bravo. Excellent post. I get tired of all of these so-called 'christians' who spout 'God hates fags' or 'you're gonna burn in hell, you heathen', etc., and call themselves christians, when the bible clearly states 'judge not, lest you be judged' and 'love thy neighbor as you love yourself'.
Pseudo-christians pick and choose what parts of the bible suit their twisted philosophy and run with them, while ignoring the parts that tell them to be open-minded, loving, generous, and humble.
I wish I could be more like those people that TRULY follow the philosophies of Jesus, and ideally, I would. I'd like to try.

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