FARK.com: (6162614) More details emerge of the Bin Laden raid carried out by SEAL Team Six

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		More details emerge of the Bin Laden raid carried out by SEAL Team Six (huffingtonpost.com)		655
		More: Interesting, Seal, Osama bin Laden, CIA Director Leon Panetta, predator drone, U.S. officials, interrogators, counter-terrorism, senior administration officials

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thamike		2011-05-02 02:00:41 PM

lordaction: Didn't Obama, on the campaign trail, describe himself as against every single tool that ended up kill OBL? Gitmo, CIA, War, etc.

No. Quit while you're behind.

CrispFlows		2011-05-02 02:01:50 PM

1macgeek: JinxofSpades: THOU SHALL NOT SUFFER A WITCH TO LIVE ( EXODUS 22:17).

ROFLMAO!!

-10 for the epic fail in misquoting... pretty much everything.

In addition to the epic fail for quoting the wrong verse (it's 22:18, not 17), the dogma of Christianity is the New Testament (and all covenants that go with it) supersede anything in the Old Testament. So necessarily to answer the challenge you would have to post something from the New Testament.

Unfortunately, this situation is not so with Islam. The Law of Abrogation means the last word on anything is, well, the last word. Period. End of Story. Full stop. And the last word in Islam is to either enslave or murder the kafir.

If they claim old testament is not as applicable, ask them about any scriptural references to homosexuality.

Usually they end up quoting Leviticus, which contradicts their claim that the new testament are the relevant scriptures to follow.

InmanRoshi		2011-05-02 02:01:50 PM

luckyeddie: No phone lines, no t'internets - why would they have computers there - to play Sim City?

You don't necessarily need phone lines to get the internets these days.

mbillips		2011-05-02 02:03:21 PM

JinxofSpades: 1macgeek: PonceAlyosha: 1macgeek: There simply are no edicts for murdering the unbelievers in Christianity like there are in Islam

That certainly didn't stop the French Wars of Religion, the Wars during the reformation, the struggle in Ireland, the Crusades, the conquering of America...I could go on. Religion is nothing more than a justification.

For Christ's sake, a significant portion of the Old Testament is spent describing the ancient Hebrew wars against other tribal religions!

That's now what I said. Post the Biblical passages which COMMAND Christians to do it or STFU. There simply are no commandments to murder or enslave non-believers in Christianity as there ARE in Islam :

"9:29. Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

So, post the Biblical equivalent, or STFU.

THOU SHALL NOT SUFFER A WITCH TO LIVE ( EXODUS 22:17).

How about everything in the book of Joshua, where the Lord commands the Israelites to commit genocide against the inhabitants of what becomes Israel? Actual, no kidding, murder every male inhabitant and enslave the females no matter what age genocide.

Most Muslims consider those passages of the Quran to refer to the initial jihadist expansion of Islam, and consider them about as relevant to modern life as the Pope's various bulls ordering the Crusades.

Marine1		2011-05-02 02:03:27 PM

Politicians will, after being elected, often behave in ways that are quite different than they promised on the campaign trail.

luckyeddie		2011-05-02 02:03:44 PM

InmanRoshi: Hitler and OBL were both announced dead on May 1st.

Surely we can get an annual National Holiday out of this. Someone get Hallmark on the phone.

It's International Labour Day. The rest of the world does have it as a public holiday, but you guys won't because of the 'Reds under the beds' connotation.

Ever.

FlashHarry		2011-05-02 02:03:54 PM

snocone		2011-05-02 02:05:12 PM

SharkTrager: Marine1: moralpanic: They were literally just hundreds of yards away from the West Point of Pakistan. One of the most heavily militarily active areas, and the Pakistanis didn't know OBL was there? Nobody wondered who lived at that heavily secured palatial compound?

Oh, people wondered. That's how we found out in the first place.

Not really. We were tracking couriers and had an idea which ones visited Osama. The suspicious behavior just confirmed there was at very least something suspicious going on.

What's interesting is Pakistanis saying they knew something was wrong and wondering who it was, so their government had to have some idea something was up with that place. But the reports are that their intelligence guys just stopped worrying about it.

Bribes will do that.

grimatongueworm		2011-05-02 02:05:14 PM

dittybopper		2011-05-02 02:05:35 PM

itazurakko: dittybopper: It's not unusual for groceries to get delivered to a house in the city, but it is for a hut in the mountains, that sort of thing.

I thought it was interesting that one of the things that tipped people off as suspicious was the lack of any internet or phone service to the house.

Now, obviously no one there can USE the phone or internet for anything remotely real, but maybe in hindsight they should have pulled lines and had someone make random chats of the sort normally upwardly-mobile suburbanite Pakistanis would be making.

It's a fine line. If you have that stuff available, all it takes is one little slip-up to make yourself a bright blazing target, and ObL knew that. He knew that the US is the best in the World at SIGINT. He wanted to minimize our ability to find him.

I'd also point out that not having a wired telephone isn't necessarily all that odd these days. A lot of people are going wireless, and if you use a cell for all your communications why would you go to the expense of running telephone wires to your new house?

ericb45696		2011-05-02 02:05:48 PM

press conference on CNN right now.

Roy_G_Biv		2011-05-02 02:06:20 PM

Fuggin Bizzy: SEAL Team motherfarking Six. There's never been more awesome than this. This is the awesomest awesome that ever awesomed.

/Yes, I am into revenge. Why, is that a bad thing?
//I wish we could kill him again.

That remark reminded me of this (new window)

I saw Osama and Osama's dead I saw him lying in a pool of red I think it's the greatest thing I'll ever see Dead Bin Laden lying in front of me I'll always remember him lying dead on the floor I hope he dies twenty times more I saw Osama and Osama is dead I saw Osama and Osama is dead

jadedlee		2011-05-02 02:06:22 PM

Sullyville: InmanRoshi: Sullyville: There is a chance that the team that did this didn't even know who they were being sent to kill until after they killed them. Or maybe only their team leader knew. And there's a chance he didn't even know until they were in the helicopter.

I doubt it. This wasn't fly by the seat of your pants material. I'm sure they had been briefed and trained for this specific compound raid for weeks, if not months, waiting for the moment they got the greenlight.

I am sure that they trained for this particular compound - maybe in a large hangar with the floorplan taped to the floor, or maybe they even built a wooden compound to run drills through. But that doesn't necessarily mean they knew it was Bin Laden who they were going after. Maybe they were just told that it was a "high-value target" and that's it.

If a small team of SEALs is taken and put directly under command of the CIA director, my bet is they know something is up and they're trustworthy enough to know exactly what the big fing deal they're involved in is. It seems counterproductive to not let them in on it, considering whom they were after. Most high value targets aren't 6'4".

scottydoesntknow		2011-05-02 02:06:26 PM

InmanRoshi: luckyeddie: No phone lines, no t'internets - why would they have computers there - to play Sim City?

You don't necessarily need phone lines to get the internets these days.

He had his couriers going in and out all the time (which led to his eventual downfall). Odds are all important electronic data was kept on mass storage devices and physically transported to where it needed to go. It's a lot less suspicious carrying out a 32gb flash drive in your pocket than briefcases and boxes of documents.

Publikwerks		2011-05-02 02:06:47 PM

Oznog		2011-05-02 02:07:41 PM

I gotta say, once you get there, this Level Boss is pretty easy.

Lt. Cheese Weasel		2011-05-02 02:07:53 PM

crab66: The butthurt and spin from conservatives is farking hilarious.

I don't know wtf you're talking about. There is universal joy in seeing OBL dead. Who cares who did it? Partisan hill asshats like you with no life, I guess.....

CrispFlows		2011-05-02 02:08:35 PM

ericb45696: press conference on CNN right now.

Here is the link (new window)

luckyeddie		2011-05-02 02:08:51 PM

BizarreMan		2011-05-02 02:09:10 PM

MugzyBrown:
There will be cake in the meeting room at 2:30.

The cake is a lie. (Somebody had to say it.)

40 Seals? Isn't anything more than 4 overkill?

RedEmily		2011-05-02 02:10:12 PM

thamike: RedEmily: thamike: A couple of great things about this:

1. He got GOT, face-to-face with a square jawed American commando, not a Predator drone or cruise missile

2. He was living like a prince. His entire holy warrior in the desert facade is f*cking destroyed.

3. And awesome no American got hurt.

YES That too. That is just some hardcore sh*t. I think I'll spend the day strutting for America.

Yup, score one for the good guys.

sid244		2011-05-02 02:10:32 PM

CrispFlows: farkeruk: moops: I heard this morning they went in to kill him, not take him captive. There was no way he'd go peacefully anyhow.

I'd much prefer he was taken to a US court and tried as the criminal that he is. Not a warrior or political martyr, but a murdering criminal. Lay out the testimony, make sure there's plenty of muslims and US immigrant arabs in there, show that we in the west are better than OBL, but still treat them with human respect.

That's what was done at the Nuremberg Trials. That's what happened to Eichmann. And if those sons of biatches deserved a trial, so does OBL.

These two were not given a trial either. The point is, Reality is rarely cut and dry like that. This all boils down to what the mission orders was and the circumstances of the mission.

Which would not surprise me to find out that the details are blacked out to prevent retribution or retaliation by those who wishes revenge.

If it did go to trial, some of the important evidence has been turned into collectors coins or a destroyer in the Navy.

The ACLU or a similar organization would cry fowl and say the Bin Laden would not receive a fair trial in the US.

Plus he would get his own dream team lawyers to prolong the trial. And if convicted, Bin Laden would be held in a max prison paid for by our tax dollars, getting better health care than were he was.

/Swift justice is swift
//If the turban doesn't fit, you must acquit.

sprawl15		2011-05-02 02:11:04 PM

dittybopper: Regardless of all that,

Obama has been on record (and has been consistent) that gun control is something that he supports of on the state and local levels, not national levels. The fear does not match the source of the fear, and being worried that Obama is going to take your guns is farking pathetic.

8DragonFark		2011-05-02 02:11:06 PM

palelizard: 1macgeek: Even so, as I have read online : the Seal that shot Bin Laden will never, ever be one-upped by anyone discussing war stories able to tell anyone.

FTFY. He'll just have to go on with his bad-ass self being quiet.

just a guess- most of these guys are not the types to post on FaceBook/Twitter etc that they were just on a mission & blew away Bin Laden (or anyone else). Most are so bad ass that they don't have to whip it out & show anyone.

scottydoesntknow		2011-05-02 02:12:07 PM

dittybopper: I'd also point out that not having a wired telephone isn't necessarily all that odd these days. A lot of people are going wireless, and if you use a cell for all your communications why would you go to the expense of running telephone wires to your new house?

It's a $1 million mansion in Pakistan. The fact that it didn't have a land-line for any reason is suspicious. This wasn't your middle-class family realizing they could save $50 a month by having every one on their family plan and cutting the land-line. Most affluent houses have land-lines for security systems alone. Now you add on the fact that they had no noticable internet service, and it becomes even more suspicious. Are they trying to keep information from coming in, or going out? And then add the trash burning, that's a definite "I'm hiding something" situation.

hungry for pintxos		2011-05-02 02:12:45 PM

palelizard: JoeCowboy: I wonder who gets the bounty?

JC

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall actively serving military weren't eligible for bounties. So, nobody.

The military wouldn't be eligible for the reward just as a police officer wouldn't be eligible for a reward. The reward should go to the citizen who provided the information leading to finding him...

So I would think whoever led the military to the courier (who in turn led intelligence to the compound) might want to apply for their $20 million?

Personally I would love to see someone get the money...

luckyeddie		2011-05-02 02:12:55 PM

scottydoesntknow: InmanRoshi: luckyeddie: No phone lines, no t'internets - why would they have computers there - to play Sim City?

You don't necessarily need phone lines to get the internets these days.

He had his couriers going in and out all the time (which led to his eventual downfall). Odds are all important electronic data was kept on mass storage devices and physically transported to where it needed to go. It's a lot less suspicious carrying out a 32gb flash drive in your pocket than briefcases and boxes of documents.

So you're saying that they weren't playing Sim City?

What about Football Manager or Lemmings?

chairborne		2011-05-02 02:13:02 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: This the thread where we all pretend we knew what the hell a "Seal Team 6" was before late last night?

Man, I for one have never heard of these guys before, makes you wonder if Seal Team 6 could do all this then what were all those lazy farkers on Teams 1 through 5 doing all night, my guess is wasting our tax dollars...

mbillips		2011-05-02 02:14:06 PM

lordaction: John Paul Jones: So while Real Americanstm were screaming about birth certificates and calling Obama a traitor and every name under the sun, he was busy orchestrating the demise of OBL.

So who's a "traitor" and a "true patriot" now?

Didn't Obama, on the campaign trail, describe himself as against every single tool that ended up kill OBL? Gitmo, CIA, War, etc. And how come he didn't send a lawyer to read OBL his rights on the battlefield and then arrest him for trial in Chicago? Was Obama just full of shiat? I think so. This is the closure to what Bush created. All Obama did was stand out of the way...thank God.

No, the only thing he was against was Gitmo, which Congress (through bipartisan cowardice) prevented him from closing. He never said he was against the CIA or war; in fact he was saying Iraq was the WRONG war mainly because it wasn't going against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan/Pakistan. He was the ONLY presidential candidate who said he would pursue bin Laden in Pakistan if we found him there (Hillary and McCain said that was "naive"). All evidence is that the intel gleaned from the Gitmo suspect in 2007 was gained by FBI interrogators using police techniques, not amateur military/CIA torturers.

jadedlee		2011-05-02 02:14:22 PM

1macgeek: thamike: I wonder if the place was rigged with explosives, or OBL was planning on pussying out of the martyrdom thing. If that place wasn't rigged for martyrdom they should PUBLICIZE THE HELL OUT OF IT.

RTFM. What part of "woman being used as a human shield" escaped your grasp?

The simple fact is bin Laden - or someone in his immediate geographic area - used a woman as a shield. Stop and think about that for a minute. One of these fear-inducing, terroristic figures literally hid behind a skirt when death came a-calling. That, assembled multitude of farkers, is the penultimate definition of a coward. A pussy. The modern definition of a piss-all-over-yourself anti-warrior.

It's just a shame that over one billion Muslims won't realize they either were his suckers, or had the potential to be the sucker for a weak-kneed, yellow-bellied, jello-spined, through-and-through coward. It was never about dying for Islam, it was about dying so a narcissist with delusions of adequacy wouldn't have to.

The only way it could have been better is to do it the way Richard Marcinko wrote about : get OBL liquored up, run him over with a truck, and leave the bottle of Jack Daniels in his hand for the locals to see. Dead drunks make really lousy martyrs in Islam.

If that's the penultimate definition of a coward, what's the ultimate one? I'm guessing it's hiding behind a child and I wouldn't put it past any of them.

sprawl15		2011-05-02 02:14:31 PM

Marine1: Politicians will, after being elected, often behave in ways that are quite different than they promised on the campaign trail.

And, in this case, he did exactly what he said he would do on the campaign trail.

luckyeddie		2011-05-02 02:14:57 PM

BizarreMan: MugzyBrown:
There will be cake in the meeting room at 2:30.

The cake is a lie. (Somebody had to say it.)

40 Seals? Isn't anything more than 4 overkill?

40 seals? You'll give the Canucks hard-ons

dittybopper		2011-05-02 02:16:00 PM

luckyeddie:
No phone lines, no t'internets - why would they have computers there - to play Sim City?

I can think of several reasons.

1. Correspondence. Yes, he used couriers, but it's easier to type up and print out your correspondence (or put it on a thumb drive), then it is to hand-write everything.

2. Money. Balancing the books, as it were. You can do the entries manually into Quicken (or whatever) instead of downloading them from the bank.

3. Encryption/decryption. This is the kind of thing that you don't want to do on a computer hooked up to the intarwebs, not if you got a 25 million dollar price on your head.

4. Recording audio messages.

I'm sure I could come up with a bunch more offline applications. After all, I've been using computers almost daily for something like 30 years now, and at least a third to a half of that time was before the Internet was opened up for general common general use.

Tax Boy		2011-05-02 02:17:46 PM

The White House has finally released some footage of the mission:
Link (SFW, suprisingly) (new window)

MrCheeks		2011-05-02 02:17:53 PM

Anyone have an un-shopped version of this photo?

jadedlee		2011-05-02 02:19:39 PM

Ouch, confirmed it was OBL using a woman as a human shield. What a brave martyr for Islam...

scottydoesntknow		2011-05-02 02:19:45 PM

luckyeddie: scottydoesntknow: InmanRoshi: luckyeddie: No phone lines, no t'internets - why would they have computers there - to play Sim City?

You don't necessarily need phone lines to get the internets these days.

He had his couriers going in and out all the time (which led to his eventual downfall). Odds are all important electronic data was kept on mass storage devices and physically transported to where it needed to go. It's a lot less suspicious carrying out a 32gb flash drive in your pocket than briefcases and boxes of documents.

So you're saying that they weren't playing Sim City?

What about Football Manager or Lemmings?

They were actually trading PS3 games. GeoHot was in cahoots with Al Qaeda for years trying to crack the PS3 and get all the free games they wanted. Those hard-drives that were recovered? Contained all 77 million PSN accounts hacked...THERE'S YOUR CRIMINAL PEOPLE!

KradDrol		2011-05-02 02:21:11 PM

Good news: We got Bin Laden. Huge victory for all involved.

Bad news: the conservatives just got all the reason they need to justify the practices at Gitmo.

luckyeddie		2011-05-02 02:21:25 PM

dittybopper: luckyeddie:
No phone lines, no t'internets - why would they have computers there - to play Sim City?

I can think of several reasons.

1. Correspondence. Yes, he used couriers, but it's easier to type up and print out your correspondence (or put it on a thumb drive), then it is to hand-write everything.

2. Money. Balancing the books, as it were. You can do the entries manually into Quicken (or whatever) instead of downloading them from the bank.

3. Encryption/decryption. This is the kind of thing that you don't want to do on a computer hooked up to the intarwebs, not if you got a 25 million dollar price on your head.

4. Recording audio messages.

I'm sure I could come up with a bunch more offline applications. After all, I've been using computers almost daily for something like 30 years now, and at least a third to a half of that time was before the Internet was opened up for general common general use.

It's ok. I'm fairly computer-savvy myself (started in 1976). It was a set-up until I got a direct bite on the 'Sim City' reference. Laid it to rest a couple of minutes ago.

Got to think about something else now....... Ah, beer. That'll do.

neoann		2011-05-02 02:21:27 PM

Why read the versions the press chooses to offer when you can read the actual transcript of the news conference following the President's announcement? http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/05/02/press-briefing-senior-admi nistration-officials-killing-osama-bin-laden My only question is: why did the first "Senior Administration Official" state that the helicopter had mechanical problems and the next one answering a follow-up question stated "we did not say it was mechanical trouble"? Lots of stuff we will not know for a long time, if ever. Oh, well, maybe we can finally begin to heal the wounds Osama caused (or at least inspired) for so many.

TheEllipsisKing...		2011-05-02 02:21:43 PM

mike0023: "By mid-February, intelligence from multiple sources was clear enough that Obama wanted to 'pursue an aggressive course of action,'..."

It is my opinion that President Obama "wanted to pursue an aggressive course of action" not so much to exact righteous revenge on an America-hating terrorist (as his predecessor would have), but rather to produce a coup in the War on Terror that would help him get reelected. I think that if the CIA got this intelligence during Obama's second term, he would do anything other than send in the commandos (e.g., ask Pakistani government to arrest and extradite him).

Gotta give you props for stating this... interesting... scenario as your opinion, and what you think, rather than a slam-dunk certainty.

You, sir-or-ma'am, have more than two functioning brain cells, and I salute you!

/slashie salute /

Chicken Soda		2011-05-02 02:21:58 PM

I'm glad Obama ordered resources to be focused on hunting Bin Laden, bureaucrat is on the bottom of my list of people to praise for this.

No personality cult for me, you Obama and Palin lovers can have that.

Latinwolf		2011-05-02 02:22:20 PM

Marine1: Latinwolf: thamike: A couple of great things about this:

1. He got GOT, face-to-face with a square jawed American commando, not a Predator drone or cruise missile

2. He was living like a prince. His entire holy warrior in the desert facade is f*cking destroyed.

And the sad part is his fans will totally disregard this point and believe the myth rather than the actual person.

I'm not so sure. The whole culture of the Middle East is changing. Sure, some kooks will believe it, but compared to 10-20 years ago, the numbers will be smaller. The man constituted the single worst curse on the Islamic world that history had ever seen.

True, I should have said some of his fans instead of implying all. We can hope that the culture will get better as the bad influences (like Osama) are removed, but only time will tell.

Marine1		2011-05-02 02:24:52 PM

sprawl15: Marine1: Politicians will, after being elected, often behave in ways that are quite different than they promised on the campaign trail.

And, in this case, he did exactly what he said he would do on the campaign trail.

Depends. I don't really care. Bunghole is dead.

dittybopper		2011-05-02 02:25:05 PM

sprawl15: dittybopper: Regardless of all that,

Obama has been on record (and has been consistent) that gun control is something that he supports of on the state and local levels, not national levels. The fear does not match the source of the fear, and being worried that Obama is going to take your guns is farking pathetic.

False:

* Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws. (Apr 2008)
* FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban. (Apr 2008)
* Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok. (Feb 2008)
* Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing. (Jan 2008)
* 2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month. (Oct 2007)
* Concealed carry OK for retired police officers. (Aug 2007)
* Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities. (Jul 2007)
* Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality. (Oct 2006)
* Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban. (Oct 2004)
* Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions. (Jul 1998)
* Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (Jul 2005)

Barack Obama on Gun Control page at www.ontheissues.org

Banning semi-automatics (the most common kind of handgun), renewing the failed Assault Weapons ban, one gun a month, local bans are OK, that doesn't sound like a friend of gun owners to me.

Note that isn't some wild-eyed NRA webpage, either.

/Last post on Obama/Gun Control in this thread. This should be to give the man credit for a job well done in killing ObL.

Daedalus27		2011-05-02 02:26:08 PM

There probably was very little resistance because there were few if any guards. You don't need a large team to do this because the more people you have, the more things can go wrong. Larger team means more helicopters, larger coordination, more surpression, and the greater likelihood someone would be tipped that something is coming. Better to have a good squad of 10 in a couple helicopters with air support than a platoon of 40 requiring multiple transport, ground support, C&C aircraft, air defense suppression, etc.

There were so little opposition because the more people that knew Bin Ladin was at that location, the more people who can betray you. He knew this which is why apparently they went to such measures to try and keep a low profile. Secrecy was his security and when he lost that, he was toast regardless of what he did. Lets say he had layers of security around making a helicopter insertion questionable. It doesn't matter how much security you have when a hellfire missile or 2000lb bomb comes through your roof. The fact that he was low profile allowed for this operation, but if there was greater opposition present, other methods could have been used to take him out. All we need is to squeegie up the remainder to ID his remains since we have a good DNA profile on him from his large family.

DavidVincent		2011-05-02 02:26:35 PM

(Joe) Lieberman said at a press conference that he fears a lone actor, perhaps a home-grown terrorist "who has become radicalized," will attempt an attack within the United States in the coming days or weeks.

The Department of Homeland Security has not increased the threat level, but Lieberman told reporters he believed the agency is operating under an "unofficial high alert" following the Sunday killing of the al Qaeda leader.

TommyBahama		2011-05-02 02:26:36 PM

jadedlee: Ouch, confirmed it was OBL using a woman as a human shield. What a brave martyr for Islam...

where did you see this?

flexflint		2011-05-02 02:27:16 PM

Crazy Lee: I wonder how the official who offered the body to the Saudis could keep a straight face.

Heh. Hadn't thought of that.

Latinwolf		2011-05-02 02:27:22 PM

thamike: Latinwolf: And the sad part is his fans will totally disregard this point and believe the myth rather than the actual person.

Well, his followers will, yeah. But for the potentials out there--the destitute and miserable--this sh*t make an impact. It really does. They find out bin Laden is basically living in Brentwood while telling them he's one of them and they share an ultimate collective sacrifice, and they start to wonder.

It doesn't help that unlike most of his followers, he came from a rich family and thus grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth. Now they find out he never gave up anything while advocating that others sacrifice on behalf of his cause, now that rings a bell

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