cromartie: You've just described about 2/3rds of the world's school systems, including Russia under the communists. Aptitude test around Grade 7 tracked you to the type of schooling you'd get. Do miserable, and you'd end up a janitor.

Yup. And it works quite well.

chaoswolf:
I see absolutely nothing wrong with guiding the ignorant to jobs more suited to their limited intellectual capacity.

SystemFault:
This goes far to explain why military recruiters are allowed to feed propaganda to minors in high schools.

Considering that the typical military recruit has more education than the average American, and the officer corps has more education than the average manager in civilian life, you're going to have to rephrase that a bit.

Unless, of course, you meant "get the smarter kids out of the much more pervasive propaganda environment in high school so they can make something of their lives..."

Here's a hint: employers will hire someone fresh out of the military well before they hire someone fresh out of college. And no, it's not because they expect someone to unquestionably follow orders - it's because the modern soldier has to actually think on their feet, do things right, and not whine when they have to work a full 40 hour week.

"Our focus is on children of African-American origin," he said of the 230-student kindergarten through eighth-grade school in Riviera Beach. "The focus is on putting people in front of them who look like them." Because putting racial politics in front of their development as humans is how emptyheads like me roll, G.

Fixed That For Him

Studies have shown that voluntary segregation - as opposed to forced segregation - actually improves harmony.

Darth_Lukecash: Hows that workin' for ya?

Florida tag

/moved out of the souf 2 weeks ago and so happy about it

Esc7: I would like to see something that supports this claim

...............white.....|....black...|..hispanic..|....asian..
income......v.....m...|...v.....m..|...v.....m...|...v.....m..
x$1,000.................|...............|...............|..............
under 10..409..460|.320..315|.330..386|.343..482
10-20......418..459|.337..369|.349..403|.363..500
20-30......428..471|.352..382|.369..420|.397..518
30-40......433..478|.362..393|.384..431|.415..528
40-50......439..488|.375..405|.399..446|.432..537
50-60......446..498|.382..414|.409..456|.444..549
60-70......453..506|.385..415|.415..458|.453..558
over 70...475..533|.407..442|.430..478|.476..595
overall....448..498|.376..426|.356..388|.418..538

Source: 1995 College Board SAT Profiles

John Dewey: We already have de facto segregation in schools thanks to income disparities. Should it really be a surprise that people are using charter schools as a way to make doubly sure THOSE students aren't in their child's schools?

Even though, as the article mentions, it's the parents CHOOSING to send their kids to those schools.

I know several kids that were sent off to charter schools when I was a kid. It was mostly for one of two reasons. Either:

The parent didn't feel the child was getting enough individual education, and the class sizes were smaller at the charter school. When the charter schools started popping up, they touted the fact that class sizes were smaller and kids would get more attention, learn more, and get better grades. This is not necessarily the case, at least not with all of the charter schools, but the parents were convinced.

Or, the kid was about to be classified special ed, for whatever reason, and rather than have them classified as such and sent into the special ed class, they sent them to a charter school where they could remain in a "normal" class and still get one on one attention.

As far as segregation, this is the case whether charter schools exist or not. Several schools where I'm from are 90%+ black, and it's due to the neighborhoods they're in. Why the neighborhoods are so segregated and how to/whether to do anything about it is a whole different story. The schools are that makeup due to where they're located. You could bus black kids to white schools all day and it's not going to change the fact that their shiatty neighborhood, shiatty family, and economic status are probably going to keep them in that situation.

And anyway, we should be concentrating on making sure those kids get a decent education no matter WHAT school there at, rather than the color of the kids at it. I think if parents want to have their kids bused to a better public school they should be given the opportunity, no matter their color, as economic status does not always allow one to move out of a crappy district. But I don't think they should be putting kids in other schools based strictly on racial makeup.

To me this is not segregation comparable to the 50s. This is segregation caused by the parents choices. How many minorities have the opportunity to take advantage of programs and funding to become educated and better themselves? How many take advantage of those programs? A pretty small amount. Something needs to lead to cultural change for those communities, and simply putting black kids, or whatever other minority, in white schools isn't going to do that.

proteus_b: Esc7: I would like to see something that supports this claim

...............white.....|....black...|..hispanic..|....asian..
income......v.....m...|...v.....m..|...v.....m...|...v.....m..
x$1,000.................|...............|...............|..............
under 10..409..460|.320..315|.330..386|.343..482
10-20......418..459|.337..369|.349..403|.363..500
20-30......428..471|.352..382|.369..420|.397..518
30-40......433..478|.362..393|.384..431|.415..528
40-50......439..488|.375..405|.399..446|.432..537
50-60......446..498|.382..414|.409..456|.444..549
60-70......453..506|.385..415|.415..458|.453..558
over 70...475..533|.407..442|.430..478|.476..595
overall....448..498|.376..426|.356..388|.418..538

Source: 1995 College Board SAT Profiles

This is easily explained by the fact that even poor whites have a higher percentage of two-parent families. Also, black culture emphasizes sports a bit too much and academics a bit too little, and IQ can be affected by what you study as a child. Blacks are not inherently stupid, they just aren't studying as hard or getting the same amount of parental support as whites.

Incidently, for those who say throwing money at the problem will fix things, it won't - poor schools often have corrupt bureacracy and the money is just blown on unnecessary crap rather than books and materials and better teachers and so on. For some school districts, the only answer is to essentially shut down all the schools and start over.

Ihaveanevilparrot: The schools are that makeup due to where they're located. You could bus black kids to white schools all day and it's not going to change the fact that their shiatty neighborhood, shiatty family, and economic status are probably going to keep them in that situation.

This is where the problem lies, not in racism. It's the attitude of the PARENTS as much as anything, and unfortunately it's frowned on to take kids away from ignorant parents except for extreme reasons.

My parents sacrificed a LOT to pay for my sister and I to go to private schooling for smart kids. One of my best friends,a BLACK ONE EVEN, his wife's majority of her salary goes to putting his two kids through a private school for smart kids. To many people that sort of action isn't worth it and you can throw everything you want at a public school system and it won't change the influence parents have on the outcome. Yes, the economically disadvantaged don't have that choice, but most of the people that can swing the money DO NOT MAKE THE CHOICE EITHER.

If Johnny Q Public's dad mostly cares about the sports teams or racially oriented schooling, that's what you are going to get. It's only a small minority of parents that really care about the education of their children beyond them acquiring basic skills and them doing well enough the parents don't get in trouble for what the kids do. Sad, but that's FACTUAL.

All the money in the world doesn't fix lame parents and half of the parents in the world are below average.

chaoswolf: We should have segregation in schools. Separate the smart from the stupid so that the teachers can more accurately shape the classroom curriculum to suit the needs of the children in question.

You'll still have racial diversity at all levels.

Yeah, right.

Average black IQ is 82.

Darth_Lukecash: I love the fact that the charter schools are not required to be tested or face the same restrictions and regulations as the public school.

So any taxpayer money goes straight to a company.

Good Jorb


Hows that workin' for ya?

Apparently it's working great. Much better than the State enforced monopoly - since every student in a charter school chose to escape the collectivist disaster that is Public Education.

Little.Alex:

Average black IQ is 82.

The lighter skin ones score better even when adjusted for income...in case it matters.

Mulattoes average 10 points higher and pure Sub-Saharans average 12 points lower according to various mainstream scientific journal articles on the topic of race and IQ.

Of Course, one might bring up--Do Culture-Only Theories Explain the Data?

Culture-only theories do not explain the highly consistent pattern of race differences in IQ. No interventions such as ending segregation, introducing school busing, or "Head Start" programs have reduced the gaps as culture-only theory would predict.

American Psychological Association, June 2005

chaoswolf: j0e_average: It would surprise "chaoswolf".

It doesn't surprise me at all.

It appears to surprise far too many people around here that rich black kids do better in school that poor white kids.

Part of that is because many rich people are that way because they made smarter choices than others. And for the ones that grew up rich, they are pretty much separated from the rest of society, and within their little culture getting good grades and going to college, even if they don't need to, is encouraged.

I say this, because the inherent argument from some seems to be that if these kids just had enough money they'd get to go to a better school and make something of themselves.
Not all economically disadvantaged kids go to a school that provides a poor education. And the economically disadvantaged also have use of programs to pay for higher education. Yet even so, they often don't take these options. It's the family environment, peer environment, etc., which leads to the mentality that keeps them where they're at.
There's a reason lottery winners often blow their winnings and end up right back where they started, and that goes for winners of any race.
Rich people shouldn't even be compared to the rest of the population as far as those kind of statistics go. They're way too small a percentage and way too removed from the rest of society.

There are, of course, things that could be done IMO to lead to betterment for those that are stuck in that cycle. Don't even get me started on what the drug war has done to encourage a cycle of poverty/violence in certain groups.
No matter what we do though, there are always going to be certain minorities that remain in a cycle of poverty because of their own doing or family background. If it's not black people it will be someone else. Show me a large mixed society where absolutely everyone is educated, relatively well off, and not segregated in some way into their own group. It's human nature to want to socialize with those of your own kind or own beliefs, whether it be other people of your economic status, race, religion, etc. You can do everything in your power to de-segregate society, and besides FORCING people to hang out with those that are different than them, it's not going to happen. Because no matter what you're always going to have sub-groups pop up that don't want much to do with another group.

That's why articles like this that sensationalize the statistics themselves are stupid. Groups of people want to be around people they can identify with. Maybe there's a sinister reason for the statistics to be the way they are, or maybe there's not.

thefnz1: This is where the problem lies, not in racism. It's the attitude of the PARENTS as much as anything, and unfortunately it's frowned on to take kids away from ignorant parents except for extreme reasons.

Yup. How do you change the mentality of most of the parents in that culture? Good question. Putting the kids in different schools isn't going to do that. Other than taking the kids and putting them with different parents, or forcing the parents to become immersed in a completely different culture (like moving them to a neighborhood with completely different types of people), I don't know. I've known plenty of black parents that had the monetary OPTION of living in better neighborhoods, that didn't.
And I have not been able to get an answer other than "this is where my family/friends live". Within black culture family and close-knit peer groups, staying near them, and helping them out, are still a huge thing, unlike with urban whites where it's now acceptable to move all over the place, and the family is not nearly as close anymore. This also goes for latino culture, and others, where family trumps just about everything else. How do you change that mentality? Going to college, getting a good job, getting your children into better schools and a better environment etc., is likely going to require moving to a better place, away from family and friends.
Oddly enough, maybe the internet will actually encourage a change. Now that people can socialize and stay in contact with family and friends all over the world. Because there's really nothing else I see making a huge change. You CAN'T force people to move away from what they know. A few will get fed up, break ties with their family and leave that environment, but many will not.

Darth_Lukecash: They are only tougher standards if they "say" so. They have nothing backing it up. And no way to check. And why is my tax money going to private companies hands? If the parents want to send their kids their, they need to pay the price.

Why is my tax money going to educate anyone's horrible beasts? I don't want to pay to educate them (or provide for their daycare, which is about all public school is good for), but I'm forced to anyway. Charter schools are a step in the right direction. All schools should be privately run and operated.

That's also a reason forcing people to not voluntarily segregate themselves will not work. At least not without causing massive resentment in those communities. How do you pull those people away from family and friend's willingly?
That's also why I say it doesn't matter what the make up of the school is, it matters what kind of education those children are getting there. The people want to voluntarily stay within their community, so make sure they have options within that community. Also not an easy thing to do, but better than trying to get them to put their kids into white schools just so the statistics look more pretty.

JBangworthy: Why is my tax money going to educate anyone's horrible beasts? I don't want to pay to educate them (or provide for their daycare, which is about all public school is good for), but I'm forced to anyway.

I know. If the parents can't afford to educate 'em, fark 'em. No matter that they probably wouldn't be able to get a job due to illiteracy and inability to do even simple math, which would leave 'em either on the street or on welfare, which is SO much better for society.

I really don't get this argument. If you want to live within civilized society you have to contribute to it, partially through funding those without the means to fund their own education.
Unless we're going to force abortions for every single person that can't afford their own kids education, or force sterilize what is the option? And I really don't think that suggestion would fly well with the majority of people, so I don't see it being implemented.

j0e_average: ...I don't know what the answer is, but what we have now is clearly not working.

/have a 15-year old in high school

I suspect it's because you're a lousy parent, mostly.

cirby: Of course, most of the schools with racial imbalances are the ones where parents of black kids wanted to get them out of the local, badly-run schools (or not-so-local, where they shipped the kids all over the place to "balance" things).

So they put their own kids in nearby charter schools, along with a bunch of other folks. So the charter school ended up looking like the neighborhood.

The reaction? "Sorry, we know you like getting a better education for your kids, and we know the charter schools will probably be safer for them overall, but we have a whole bunch of school district bureaucrats we're going to have to fire if we don't get the victims students back in the public school system..."

I worked for a charter school in Dayton, Ohio for the first five years of its existence. It was well-funded by the Edison Project, and I mean WELL-FUNDED. New buildings, well-equipped classrooms, and every family got a computer to take home. Longer school years (read: more weeks of free day-care) than the public schools and lots of "We're all a big, loving family" rhetoric.

During the five years I worked there, the scenario posted by "cirby" is pretty much how it all went down. Not only as pertains to the students, but a lot of the incompetent drek working in the public school system ended up switching over to better-paid jobs at the charter school. The two -- public and charter -- became indistinguishable from each other within a pretty short period of time. Standards and accountability were hardly anywhere to be found, and I'll tell you, there are a LOT of stupid, arrogant people making big bucks in inner-city public education.

Yes, big bucks.

hasty ambush: To Show the Importance that Ancient Africans placed on Mathematics to solve All Problems, establish Truth and Order (Ma'at), and Apply knowledge to create, develop, and engineer any and all Systems and Technologies needed for survival and well-being.

Are modern African-Americans even related to the Ancient Egyptians?

cirby: chaoswolf:
I see absolutely nothing wrong with guiding the ignorant to jobs more suited to their limited intellectual capacity.

SystemFault:
This goes far to explain why military recruiters are allowed to feed propaganda to minors in high schools.

Considering that the typical military recruit has more education than the average American, and the officer corps has more education than the average manager in civilian life, you're going to have to rephrase that a bit.

Unless, of course, you meant "get the smarter kids out of the much more pervasive propaganda environment in high school so they can make something of their lives..."

Here's a hint: employers will hire someone fresh out of the military well before they hire someone fresh out of college. And no, it's not because they expect someone to unquestionably follow orders - it's because the modern soldier has to actually think on their feet, do things right, and not whine when they have to work a full 40 hour week.

None of the above is true.

Braindeath

None of the above is true.

You seem so certain. Yet, I have heard from several people who work in human resources, that they will indeed preferntially hire veterens because of their experiences and job discipline.

Now that we know what human beings--specifically, the parents of students--want for their child, are we who spout "Freedom of Choice!" so often going to deny these THEIR choices?
Of course we will. We're a nation of hypocrites.

MouserMusing: Product of a racially diverse school system...and by racially diverse I mean that the racial tensions in school was a big distraction to getting your learn on.

Me too. Constant threats of fights between the White neighborhood kids, , the Black neighborhood kids, the Mexican neighborhood kids and the Asian neighborhood kids over really stupid crap like "He looked at me funny" kept a lot of education from being given. You bring in a ghetto attitude into a non ghetto school and kids stop worrying about classes and start worrying about getting jumped in the parking lot or just off campus by another group of kids. Nobody ended up getting any real educational benefits from forced busing but a lot of kids educations (of all races) suffered from it.

I know plenty of people who started off neutral at worse over going to school with kids from other races and cultures and by the end of high school had a decidedly racist bias against certain groups. It wasn't their parents pushing them that way, it was the actions of the other kids that did it.

This was in racially diverse San Francisco where supposedly that kind of thing doesn't happen. Bullcrap. People are people no matter where you go it's just that some people are better liars about it than others.