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(Trib Local)   Environmental group wants wind turbines banned. That blows   (triblocal.com) divider line 154
    More: Ironic  
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10671 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Apr 2011 at 9:31 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-04-23 10:38:24 PM  
I see you.

Read you.

You read me?

;)
 
2011-04-23 10:38:38 PM  
There are more factors to noise than just the decibel level. The whoop whoop would have me goolging "IED" after a few minutes.
 
2011-04-23 10:40:18 PM  
12349876: If you were serious about protecting birds, you'd advocate banning windows.

Chair5768: If you were serious about protecting birds, you'd spread the word.


Yes, indeed, he did.
 
2011-04-23 10:40:38 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Mr. Gates is asking for maximum trolling. Were he near by I might be bothered to think of a way to do it.


500 pinwheels on his lawn?
 
2011-04-23 10:41:58 PM  
Sounds like the perfect town to build an organic waste recycling plant in...

/pretentious jerk offs
 
2011-04-23 10:42:40 PM  

12349876: I guarantee you there isn't a 15 mile evacuation zone around this thing.


No, but there is around the plant that refines the rare earth metals to build it.

treo.typepad.com
 
2011-04-23 10:43:38 PM  

ole prophet: Did the article mention birds? Wind turbines kill a bunch of those too.


So does lightning.
 
2011-04-23 10:46:06 PM  
No outrage from Libertyville's Sikh community?
 
2011-04-23 10:46:53 PM  
Here's how you deall with those nimby dipshiats who complain about wind turbines: cut off their power. Just don't build the plant. They'll start rethinking their decision when they flick the light switch and it stays dark.

Or maybe build a tire burning power plant instead. See if they like it when their landscape turns black and they cough up bloody lumps.
 
2011-04-23 10:49:02 PM  
So instead of these wind turbines, let's restore the Zion Nuclear Power Station just up the road from him. It will meet all of Dave Gates' requirements. I'm sure he'll have no problem with this?
 
2011-04-23 10:49:02 PM  

ole prophet: Did the article mention birds? Wind turbines kill a bunch of those too.


Bats too.

/45 decibels is ambient background in a house? Not at 4 in the AM.
 
2011-04-23 10:49:05 PM  

bartink: ole prophet: Did the article mention birds? Wind turbines kill a bunch of those too.

So does lightning.


So does my cat.
 
2011-04-23 10:49:58 PM  
I have yet to find anyone who will give me a straight answer to two questions:

1. How much electricity does the turbine actually make?

2. At prevailing rates, and allowing for maintenence expenses, how long will it take for the turbine to pay for itself?

Suspicious?
 
2011-04-23 10:52:09 PM  
No turbines?

The Sikhs are going to be mighty pissed about this.
 
2011-04-23 10:56:38 PM  
i224.photobucket.com
 
2011-04-23 10:58:41 PM  
I went to the site Refudiated Strategerist found. There's a tab called "Turbine Noise" so I clicked it expecting to hear what a turbine actually sounds like. Instead, there are no less than THREE links to the same YouTube video of a washing machine.

If you were serious about explaining the noise, wouldn't you put a link to the ACTUAL noise it makes? That's right, it's probably not as bad as that... BROKEN... washing machine!
 
2011-04-23 10:59:00 PM  

Chair5768:
If you were serious about protecting birds, you'd spread the word.


Everybody's heard. Papa-ooma-mow-mow.

12349876: If you were serious about protecting birds, you'd advocate banning windows.


Heh, you were easy...like your mom.
 
2011-04-23 11:02:21 PM  

no talent ass clown: "You have this 'whoop, whoop, whoop' sound over your house," he said.


It's for decoration.
 
2011-04-23 11:02:47 PM  
The first video on YouTube after searching for "Wind Turbine Noise" brings me to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD0v9_zV2uk

Love it!
 
2011-04-23 11:03:59 PM  

no talent ass clown: "You have this 'whoop, whoop, whoop' sound over your house," he said.


damn it. i was trying to find a picture when i saw that line. oh well.


3.bp.blogspot.com

/approves
 
2011-04-23 11:04:03 PM  
It cracks me up when people think they have a right to light or view. I can put a 60 foot tall Thuja evergreens all along my property and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it in most ordinances. Just moved in a few months ago to a new house, putting up a 6 foot fence. All of the sudden I'm getting the cold shoulder from the next door neighbors. I guess since my house was vacant for 2 years, they thought they had a sprawl. It's always the people who can't afford to live like a millionaire that want to. "let's see, I'll buy this little quarter acre, but I'll biatch about the paint color of the house across the street, the flowers in the house next door and no one should have more than 2 cars". Shut the fark up.
 
2011-04-23 11:04:08 PM  

olddinosaur: I have yet to find anyone who will give me a straight answer to two questions:

1. How much electricity does the turbine actually make?

2. At prevailing rates, and allowing for maintenence expenses, how long will it take for the turbine to pay for itself?

Suspicious?


1. Depends on how fast it spins

2. Not 10¢ per kWh and see above
 
2011-04-23 11:07:48 PM  
This is a picture of me at a windfarm in Germany. I'm about 5'8", and as you can see, I'm barely visible. I think it was around 150-175 ft tall, though it's really hard to get a proper perspective from the ground. It wasn't terribly loud, but then, I don't live right under it.
i508.photobucket.com
 
2011-04-23 11:09:30 PM  

ole prophet: olddinosaur: I have yet to find anyone who will give me a straight answer to two questions:

1. How much electricity does the turbine actually make?

2. At prevailing rates, and allowing for maintenence expenses, how long will it take for the turbine to pay for itself?

Suspicious?

1. Depends on how fast it spins

2. Not 10¢ per kWh and see above


Exactly my point.

Prevailing average winds are known for every area; for Corpus (there is a wind farm near my home) they are higher than average.

Retail for electricity is $.145/KWH in this town, but there is a big variation depending on what company you choose.

I cannot tell with any accuracy how much electricity the wind towers make, or what each one cost.

VERY suspicious.
 
2011-04-23 11:11:34 PM  

olddinosaur: I have yet to find anyone who will give me a straight answer to two questions:

1. How much electricity does the turbine actually make?

2. At prevailing rates, and allowing for maintenence expenses, how long will it take for the turbine to pay for itself?

Suspicious?


I have no idea on the second one, but the rule of thumb I've always heard is wind turbines have around a 20% capacity factor. It varies from location to location, and some great spots might get as high as 35%.

At 20%, a 1.5 MW turbine would generate 2628 MWh per year. To compare, an 80% capacity factor on a fossil plant is not unusual. At 80%, a 500 MW plant would generate 3,504,000 MWh per year. Then 3,504,000/2628 means one would need 1333 turbines to replace that fossil plant.
 
2011-04-23 11:13:59 PM  

hbk72777: It cracks me up when people think they have a right to light or view. I can put a 60 foot tall Thuja evergreens all along my property and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it in most ordinances. Just moved in a few months ago to a new house, putting up a 6 foot fence. All of the sudden I'm getting the cold shoulder from the next door neighbors. I guess since my house was vacant for 2 years, they thought they had a sprawl. It's always the people who can't afford to live like a millionaire that want to. "let's see, I'll buy this little quarter acre, but I'll biatch about the paint color of the house across the street, the flowers in the house next door and no one should have more than 2 cars". Shut the fark up.


Ha, like you could afford to put in 60ft evergreens all along your property line.
 
2011-04-23 11:14:31 PM  

ciberido: 12349876: If you were serious about protecting birds, you'd advocate banning windows.

Chair5768: If you were serious about protecting birds, you'd spread the word.

Yes, indeed, he did.


nah. Birds see UV. You can easily add a layer to windows that, while it will distort the color spectrum coming through/dim things a bit, will essentially make the window look solid to a bird. You can also polarize the light (which will dim things considerably) which should also make the birds see the window.

If you have a problem window (ie see a bird hit one), I do recommend getting getting some of the UV clings. I haven't had a bird strike since I installed them.
 
2011-04-23 11:16:23 PM  

bmihura: bartink: ole prophet: Did the article mention birds? Wind turbines kill a bunch of those too.

So does lightning.

So does my cat.



The outside cat we had was constantly bringing home birds for us. The summer was particularly memorable one day he brought home a pigeon. Couple weeks later, he left a bat by the front door.
 
2011-04-23 11:21:44 PM  

olddinosaur: I have yet to find anyone who will give me a straight answer to two questions:

1. How much electricity does the turbine actually make?

2. At prevailing rates, and allowing for maintenence expenses, how long will it take for the turbine to pay for itself?

Suspicious?


I'm no expert, so I can only post answers that make sense to me. I hope that's OK with you, and I'd be willing to admit if I've made an incorrect assumption. But here goes:

1) I don't know precisely how much electricity a single turbine makes, but after the construction of the turbine, it will produce more energy for a longer period of time than the equal area of space that a mine of equal area produces. (pardon my imprecise grammar) That is to say, a 500x500 surface area of coal mine can only produce a finite amount of energy, whereas a wind turbine will continue to produce energy as long as the wind is blowing.

Now, I suppose that an argument could be made that coal (or natural gas, or whatever) produces more energy, BUT that energy is finite. Once it's burned, it's gone. Wind turbines and solar energy might be (currently) not as efficient as fossil fuels, but those sources will always be there as long as the wind blows and the sun shines. The technology to harness these inexhaustible resources will improve.

2) I don't know. I'm not a scientist. BUT, I'd rather pay a local guy to build/maintain a turbine than pay for other countries to drill/ship a limited resource to us. The "drill baby drill" mantra of the Palin-Americans is nothing more than a bandage to prevent bleeding out.

Looking forward, only the idea of harnessing renewable free resources makes sense. We're nearly (in a historical sense - not next week) to the point where our ability to exist comfortably requires it.
 
2011-04-23 11:22:19 PM  

The_Homeless_Guy: ciberido: 12349876: If you were serious about protecting birds, you'd advocate banning windows.

Chair5768: If you were serious about protecting birds, you'd spread the word.

Yes, indeed, he did.

nah. Birds see UV. You can easily add a layer to windows that, while it will distort the color spectrum coming through/dim things a bit, will essentially make the window look solid to a bird. You can also polarize the light (which will dim things considerably) which should also make the birds see the window.

If you have a problem window (ie see a bird hit one), I do recommend getting getting some of the UV clings. I haven't had a bird strike since I installed them.


You can also hand some strings from the eve. They can be quite small.
 
2011-04-23 11:23:03 PM  

hbk72777: It cracks me up when people think they have a right to light or view. I can put a 60 foot tall Thuja evergreens all along my property and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it in most ordinances.


Up here in WA state, there are actually solar easements. If you have a PV array, or solar hot water heater installed, your right to that light is protected. Link (new window)

If your neighbor wants to put up some big trees (or a tall building), they're more than welcome to, but they have to reimburse you for the installed cost, along with the cost of the offset energy over the lifetime of the system - which is typically 25-40 years (depending on solar PV or thermal).
 
2011-04-23 11:23:31 PM  

Jgok: So the wind turbines...
1.) can't be louder than 45 decibels - OK, the average home has 50 decibels of ambient sound. Everyone STFU, Mr. NIMBY needs peace and quiet!
2.) can't cast a shadow on a neighboring property - um, WTF? At sunrise, my house casts a shadow across the street onto someone else's yard. Too farking bad.
3.) couldn't be any taller than the maximum height in that district (5 feet taller than a 1-story house, apparently) - so no two-story houses are allowed in the district?
4.) can't make sun glints - Hey dumbass... the sun is glinting off your windows, so please replace them with nonreflective glass or paint them matte black. Thanks.
5.) cannot have any lighting - Whoops, sorry about hitting it with that medevac copter last night. Maybe you should put some kind of signal on it that's visible at night.
6.) or advertising - I agree with this one, and they don't have advertising.
7.) cannot create electromagnetic interference - well, a wind turbine doesn't affect digital or satellite TV, FM radio is only affected within about 100 feet of the turbine, and it doesn't affect cell phones. Anything else, STFU and deal with it.
8.) can't be operated between 9 p.m. and 7 a.m. - so about 40% of the capacity is wasted sitting idle.

"That does not satisfy Gates."

Somehow, I expected it wouldn't.


I agree with everything. They do royally fark up weather radar though. Not that I care that much. You can still track severe weather. Eventually, if there are enough turbines, we might have to change things. But despite the naysayers there are solutions. For example, if you have multiple doppler radars in various locations and know the location of the windfarms, you should be able to create a composite image that removes the wind farm noise.
 
2011-04-23 11:29:16 PM  

bartink: The_Homeless_Guy: ciberido: 12349876: If you were serious about protecting birds, you'd advocate banning windows.

Chair5768: If you were serious about protecting birds, you'd spread the word.

Yes, indeed, he did.

nah. Birds see UV. You can easily add a layer to windows that, while it will distort the color spectrum coming through/dim things a bit, will essentially make the window look solid to a bird. You can also polarize the light (which will dim things considerably) which should also make the birds see the window.

If you have a problem window (ie see a bird hit one), I do recommend getting getting some of the UV clings. I haven't had a bird strike since I installed them.

You can also hand some strings from the eve. They can be quite small.


Hmm haven't tried that one. Though the clings seem to work well enough. My parents actually have a glass "sun-room" and tons of bird feeders/humming bird feeders. They don't have any strikes due to a UV coating.
 
2011-04-23 11:37:56 PM  
fanbladesaresharp: 500 pinwheels on his lawn?

Something like that yeah :)
 
2011-04-23 11:41:44 PM  

Quantum Apostrophe: 12349876: If you were serious about protecting birds, you'd advocate banning windows cats cars.

They're very efficient killing machines.

 
2011-04-23 11:46:55 PM  

elk-tamer: There are more factors to noise than just the decibel level. The whoop whoop would have me goolging "IED" after a few minutes.


It's pretty damn annoying. On the loud days I would like to blow them up. They're not loud all the time but when they are, it's shiatty. They sound like an intermittent jet/train noise. You can almost feel it sometimes. That is from 3000ft away. I feel bad for the people who have them closer to their homes around here. A lot of people are moving away from them.

a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net

a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net

Some people around here have them less than 500ft from their homes.
 
2011-04-23 11:48:03 PM  

olddinosaur: I have yet to find anyone who will give me a straight answer to two questions:

1. How much electricity does the turbine actually make?

2. At prevailing rates, and allowing for maintenence expenses, how long will it take for the turbine to pay for itself?

Suspicious?


You are on the right track. These things are maintenance intensive. Complexity is like an airplane motor on a stick. The required maintenance makes the cost of power comparable to current rates.

They look good on TV, but besides the problems with light/shadows and noise, they aren't that efficient. It takes resources to do that maintenance. Wind turbine energy isn't free, nor very green, either.
 
2011-04-23 11:48:53 PM  

olddinosaur: ole prophet: olddinosaur: I have yet to find anyone who will give me a straight answer to two questions:

1. How much electricity does the turbine actually make?

2. At prevailing rates, and allowing for maintenence expenses, how long will it take for the turbine to pay for itself?

Suspicious?

1. Depends on how fast it spins

2. Not 10¢ per kWh and see above

Exactly my point.

Prevailing average winds are known for every area; for Corpus (there is a wind farm near my home) they are higher than average.

Retail for electricity is $.145/KWH in this town, but there is a big variation depending on what company you choose.

I cannot tell with any accuracy how much electricity the wind towers make, or what each one cost.

VERY suspicious.


It is a GREAT idea (or wet dream for some) but ultimately until "they" can make it somewhat profitable, it is NEVER...wait...get 18 year olds that felt "sad" because they were picked last for the dodge ball team in elementary school...make them go into debt to us to the tune of $20k for 4 years of "training"...then you get them all together and "demand" what they think they want (we get a cut of course) in return for their beer filled, No-Doz nights of "hard" work in our training program...and we put people in a political office to come up with rules that make people pay no matter the cost. Congratulations, we just created the...
 
2011-04-23 11:51:55 PM  
Environmental? Maybe subby heard that Grassroots is a new subdivision of Greenpeace?
 
2011-04-23 11:57:16 PM  

Craptastic: olddinosaur: I have yet to find anyone who will give me a straight answer to two questions:

1. How much electricity does the turbine actually make?

2. At prevailing rates, and allowing for maintenence expenses, how long will it take for the turbine to pay for itself?

Suspicious?

I'm no expert, so I can only post answers that make sense to me. I hope that's OK with you, and I'd be willing to admit if I've made an incorrect assumption. But here goes:

1) I don't know precisely how much electricity a single turbine makes, but after the construction of the turbine, it will produce more energy for a longer period of time than the equal area of space that a mine of equal area produces. (pardon my imprecise grammar) That is to say, a 500x500 surface area of coal mine can only produce a finite amount of energy, whereas a wind turbine will continue to produce energy as long as the wind is blowing.

Now, I suppose that an argument could be made that coal (or natural gas, or whatever) produces more energy, BUT that energy is finite. Once it's burned, it's gone. Wind turbines and solar energy might be (currently) not as efficient as fossil fuels, but those sources will always be there as long as the wind blows and the sun shines. The technology to harness these inexhaustible resources will improve.

2) I don't know. I'm not a scientist. BUT, I'd rather pay a local guy to build/maintain a turbine than pay for other countries to drill/ship a limited resource to us. The "drill baby drill" mantra of the Palin-Americans is nothing more than a bandage to prevent bleeding out.

Looking forward, only the idea of harnessing renewable free resources makes sense. We're nearly (in a historical sense - not next week) to the point where our ability to exist comfortably requires it.


But sunshine doesn't allow supply-side bottlenecks! Why do you hate profit margins, you filthy commie?
 
2011-04-24 12:00:07 AM  

Bigjohn3592: olddinosaur: I have yet to find anyone who will give me a straight answer to two questions:

1. How much electricity does the turbine actually make?

2. At prevailing rates, and allowing for maintenence expenses, how long will it take for the turbine to pay for itself?

Suspicious?

You are on the right track. These things are maintenance intensive. Complexity is like an airplane motor on a stick. The required maintenance makes the cost of power comparable to current rates.

They look good on TV, but besides the problems with light/shadows and noise, they aren't that efficient. It takes resources to do that maintenance. Wind turbine energy isn't free, nor very green, either.


Yes, we'd be better off advancing our heating and cooling systems. I actually have become very interested in the "passive-haus" type systems they have in europe.

Basically you make sure your house is well sealed (not too hard to do) and then have a Heat recovery ventilator that is then hooked up to a small heatpump. The heatpump will remove any residual heat from the incoming air (cooling it in the summer) or the outgoing air (capturing waste heat in the winter) and then pushes the heat into a hot water tank. This hot water can either be used as such, or coils form the hot water heater go to the heating system to provide extra heat to the house. If you have enough hot water (during the summer), excess heat can just be vented via the exhaust air coil (which in the winter is used to capture heat).


While I imagine these systems aren't exactly cheap, they shouldn't be that expensive either (they aren't that big/don't require anything super-high tech). Probably around 3-3.5k based on the components. However, nobody in the US sells them (as far as I can tell).
 
2011-04-24 12:02:31 AM  
Crosshair: "No, but there is around the plant that refines the rare earth metals to build it."

You realize there exist motors/turbines that don't use rare earths now, largely as a result of the Chinese embargo on those metals, right?
 
2011-04-24 12:02:33 AM  

relcec: hbk72777: It cracks me up when people think they have a right to light or view. I can put a 60 foot tall Thuja evergreens all along my property and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it in most ordinances. Just moved in a few months ago to a new house, putting up a 6 foot fence. All of the sudden I'm getting the cold shoulder from the next door neighbors. I guess since my house was vacant for 2 years, they thought they had a sprawl. It's always the people who can't afford to live like a millionaire that want to. "let's see, I'll buy this little quarter acre, but I'll biatch about the paint color of the house across the street, the flowers in the house next door and no one should have more than 2 cars". Shut the fark up.

Ha, like you could afford to put in 60ft evergreens all along your property line.


Just put in 4 foot tall evergreens, and wait a few years.
 
2011-04-24 12:06:21 AM  
We will ALL be drawing much of our power off of Chinese solar devices in the next few decades.Next gen photovoltaics will be cheaply made out of simple glass and common metals, will have no moving parts,last for decades and reduce the cost of power to a pittance.
 
2011-04-24 12:09:02 AM  
They don't call it the Windy City for nothing
 
2011-04-24 12:20:11 AM  

picodenico: Grassroots does not equal environmental.

However, numerous environmental groups I know of have asked for further research on wind turbines because they are in the midst of bird migration routes, and birds will fly into them. Also, the spinning of the turbines cause pressure differences which cause problems for bats. As the rapid pressure changes occur due to the turbines, the bats lungs explode as they get near.


I propose the idiot solution: cages. Install cages around the blades much like a home fan. Tada! No more bird problem.

As for bats, well if the bat isn't smart enough to hear the turbine on its sonar...
 
2011-04-24 12:21:33 AM  
Anybody point out yet that this is not an environmental group, but rather a special interest group focused on property values? Okay, just checking...
 
2011-04-24 12:26:59 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: The thought occurs to me that we could now track everyone's car and charge them use taxes based on their mileage travelled.


We do. It's called a gas tax.

Also, I don't think unfairly punishing farmers is really an easy sell in this country.
 
2011-04-24 12:30:43 AM  

tetsoushima: This is a picture of me at a windfarm in Germany. I'm about 5'8", and as you can see, I'm barely visible. I think it was around 150-175 ft tall, though it's really hard to get a proper perspective from the ground. It wasn't terribly loud, but then, I don't live right under it.


I live in an area where there are numerous turbines, towers in the same range adding blade they are about 250.
I wanted to hear the often complained about "whoop" sound and found it really unnoticeable over the sound of the wind in my face.
As for birds getting killed, if they can't see it coming we call it culling the heard.
 
2011-04-24 12:31:24 AM  

ole prophet: It is a GREAT idea (or wet dream for some) but ultimately until "they" can make it somewhat profitable, it is NEVER...wait...get 18 year olds that felt "sad" because they were picked last for the dodge ball team in elementary school...make them go into debt to us to the tune of $20k for 4 years of "training"...then you get them all together and "demand" what they think they want (we get a cut of course) in return for their beer filled, No-Doz nights of "hard" work in our training program...and we put people in a political office to come up with rules that make people pay no matter the cost. Congratulations, we just created the...


[Darth Vader with a Brita Filter in the surf.jpg]
 
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