cameroncrazy1984: cretinbob: Yeah, but you get paid relatively more and most likely don't commute 50 miles a day like most people. Go fark yourself.

People who commute 50 miles a day are idiots.


It's funny you should say that cuz I just got a job after graduating in December...and my job is 35 miles one way.

However, I've already started looking for a new place to live down near it. heheh Redondo here I come!!

jerem43: snocone: Free Market, I am disappoint.

This is the free heavily regulated and controlled market. Speculators are driving the prices higher and making themselves big cash.

FTFReality

When do the truckers start parking their trucks like they did last time gas got this high?

Solution:

snark puppet: neaorin:
None of the "drill, baby, drill" people have any real answer to your question. Basically they try to save face with "this just gives us more time to develop alternate energies!".

Uh, we've had lots of time to do that. Decades. Why didn't we do it?

So your plan is:


1. let energy prices gradually increase to the point where a bucket of alternative energies are economically viable
2. profit!


Or would you like to propose yet another "sustainable" but not scalable idea for cheap power?


Cheap power is GONE. It's history. It's a thing of the past. Never again until we solve fusion will we have cheap power. Open your eyes and look around this motherfarker. See how many of us are around?
The only real question is can humankind - all seven billion of us, and rising - get access to affordable (not cheap!) energy, long-term (which rules out staying on fossil fuels forever). If the answer is no, then I guess we better get ready for WW3.


All of the alternate fuel red herrings the enviros have been tossing out HAVE been researched.


Research is one thing, bringing a product to market is completely different - again, see electric car.
Research is also not something which you only do once and then stop - provided there is an incentive to keep researching. You can't do it overnight, that's for sure.


None of them would scale except nuclear. One reason oil economics are a self perpetuating problem is because new nuke plants have been blocked so thoroughly by regs and red tape there's no economic reason to build any. The US has huge reserves of natural gas, but just try to get a permit to develop it. The insanely high cost of energy is a direct result of the environmental vanity of the green movement.

Again, suppose we dig into whatever we have left, no holding back, and energy gets somewhat cheap again - what do we do when it's all gone?

neaorin: t. Never again until we solve fusion will we have cheap power

Negativity, a brilliant way to get things done *facepalm*

neaorin: Never again until we solve fusion will we have cheap power.

There's a giant fusion reactor in our solar system that distributes tons of free power 24 hours per day, every day. The methods of harnessing that power are becoming increasingly cheaper and better. I believe you are mistaken.

I have a Ford superduty with a 6.0 diesel. Bought the truck knowing fuel prices were going up. Thus I have no right to biatch about fuel prices. You choose what vehicle you would like to drive and plan accordingly. If I had children or a lot of monthly expenses bet your ass i'd be driving some uber high mpg vehicle. Unhappily but drive it I would. That's part of life. If you have to make a choice and live with it for quite some time IE a car/truck you should plan far in advance for things like sky high fuel.

Mobkey: 1.28/L here, which is 4.85/gallon I believe.

Stop biatching.

THIS. Leaving...still annoyed.

Mobkey: 1.28/L here, which is 4.85/gallon I believe.

Stop biatching.

$5.05USD

There, now I feel better.

WhyteRaven74: neaorin: t. Never again until we solve fusion will we have cheap power

Negativity, a brilliant way to get things done *facepalm*

I guess burying our heads in the (increasingly oil-free) sand does sound like a better idea than facing the issue.

untaken_name: neaorin: Never again until we solve fusion will we have cheap power.

There's a giant fusion reactor in our solar system that distributes tons of free power 24 hours per day, every day. The methods of harnessing that power are becoming increasingly cheaper and better. I believe you are mistaken.

Hopefully I am - but in any case fighting to keep oil and gas prices as low as possible in today's world seems incredibly short-sighted, all things considered. Which was my argument.

Only one thing to say about high gas prices.

Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000

neaorin: Hopefully I am - but in any case fighting to keep oil and gas prices as low as possible in today's world seems incredibly short-sighted, all things considered. Which was my argument.

Oil prices are artificially inflated. If you're for higher oil prices, you're for more record-breaking quarters for oil companies, as we've seen over the past 10 years.

dmoynihan: neaorin: Cheap power is GONE. It's history. It's a thing of the past.

This... manifesto... doesn't really explain how power (electric) demand is down (20%), and oil/gas demand is down (2 million bpd) in the U.S. since 2008. I don't much agree w/ the drill baby drill crew, 'cuz I bet on the Bakken, but if U.S. production increases 5 million bpd, and oil demand reduced another 1 million bpd (gas prices, et al), err, what would be the effect of this on the market for oil, long-term?

And are those results "peak oil" or... stupid market?

US demand is not global demand.

untaken_name: neaorin: Hopefully I am - but in any case fighting to keep oil and gas prices as low as possible in today's world seems incredibly short-sighted, all things considered. Which was my argument.

Oil prices are artificially inflated. If you're for higher oil prices, you're for more record-breaking quarters for oil companies, as we've seen over the past 10 years.

I'm for whatever helps my grandchildren live in a world with affordable energy. I really don't believe "drill baby drill" is the way to do that, even if that means some oil execs today will get two gajilion dollar bonuses instead of just one gajilion.

neaorin: I'm for whatever helps my grandchildren live in a world with affordable energy.

So it is your considered opinion that allowing energy prices to be artificially high is the way to let your grandchildren have affordable energy? That does not make sense. If they are allowed to get away with artificially inflating the price NOW, what makes you think they won't do the same thing in the future?

no clever name here just move along:
My 1989 Nissan Pulsar averages between 28-32 mpg.
Hardly any electronics, so in the event of an EMP attack, I'm still mobile.
Runs like a champ, and although I have had to put money into repairs here and there, it has still be WAY cheaper than something newer.

Hate to tell ya, bunky, but it has a PCM (albeit, primitive) and complies with ODB1. Upon said EMP attack, you're in walking mode.

JonBuck: I live about 30 miles from work, so a smaller(or electric) scooter isn't practical for me. I still get 60-65 mpg on average, though. A 400cc motor is large enough to keep up on local freeways.

I don't have a nice Burgman, but I have a Jonway YY250T that gets me around pretty well at about 75mpg or so. I also have a little 49.9cc that gets 100mpg (but it's too slow for anything besides in city driving). Sadly, my car doesn't get very good mileage (2003 Crown Vic). If I could switch to a hybrid or full electric with any kind of cost effectiveness, I would in a heartbeat. We simply can't afford the prices they want for one.

Right now my wife and I are looking at buying a house close to her work... the cost of gas is getting so high that we're spending about $350-$400 a month on gas... Pretty damn tired of paying that much.

HotSalsaZoot: no clever name here just move along:
My 1989 Nissan Pulsar averages between 28-32 mpg.
Hardly any electronics, so in the event of an EMP attack, I'm still mobile.
Runs like a champ, and although I have had to put money into repairs here and there, it has still be WAY cheaper than something newer.

Hate to tell ya, bunky, but it has a PCM (albeit, primitive) and complies with ODB1. Upon said EMP attack, you're in walking mode.

Yup, thought the same thing. I do, however, have an EMP proof vehicle. A 1982 Datsun diesel pickup. Previous owner removed the electronic control for the injector pump so I now shut it off with a choke knob under the dash.

And yes, I've bump-started it before. Pretty sure it will outlast me and the apocalypse.

untaken_name: neaorin: I'm for whatever helps my grandchildren live in a world with affordable energy.

So it is your considered opinion that allowing energy prices to be artificially high is the way to let your grandchildren have affordable energy? That does not make sense. If they are allowed to get away with artificially inflating the price NOW, what makes you think they won't do the same thing in the future?

The price is inflated, but not "artificially" so - in the sense that futures trading in oil is done with the understanding (and fear) that we are finding it increasingly difficult to keep up with the rising demand at a time when new oil finds are fewer and farther between, and/or at much greater costs to drill out than a few decades ago.

The exact same thing happens in every other market in which futures trading is permitted - any fears and uncertainties about the future are being brought forward, into the present. You can argue that futures trading in oil is bad, but when it's clear that moving away from fossil fuels is gonna take decades, I consider it a good thing if we start fretting about the possible supply problems a lot sooner.

Simply the existence of a futures market does not guarantee "artificially" increased prices - there has to be some fear of the general market that the price will go up. Otherwise nobody will be willing to bet on the price rising.
And with oil, there is one. A very real one, in my opinion.

neaorin: The price is inflated, but not "artificially" so

Riiiiight. Which is why the profits that the oil companies make are going up faster than the price per barrel. I wish I could live in a fair world, but that doesn't mean that I think I do. That's not even getting into OPEC price fixing, which also exists.

hitchking: puffy999: hitchking: But, long-term, higher gas prices mean cleaner air, better public transportation, more efficient vehicles, etc. It's not all downside.

Until America changes the general urban/suburban/rural planning models that exist, and more Americans have easy/affordable access to public transportation (or can get jobs nearby), the only long-term impact will be the further reduction of the middle class. Americans are still going to need to commute. There will be less joy-riding, but that's not going to amount to much when China starts their "joyriding/tour the nation in an automobile" phase in the upcoming decades.

Well, remember that the current situation of huge urban sprawl, crappy public transportation, and giant cars and SUVs are not an ineradicable fact of life. They all exist that way because of incentives. If fuel is more expensive, over time communities will become denser, voters will start demanding decent public transportation, and drivers will put more of a premium on fuel efficiency.

There's no question that it'll cause some short-term pain. But what's the alternative? Have the government massively subsidize gas prices forever?

To you, sir, I say, 'pull your head out of your rectum where you are dreaming of rose-scented bunny farts and go felate a yak'.

People less fortunate than you are going to have it quite a bit harder because of this not just in the form of gas for commuting but also in the price of food and basic goods.

Thinking that increasing the cost of living will magically change this, decentralize the economy, and put the hoarded resources back into the hands of the poor/former middle class is really delusional.

/End flame

untaken_name: neaorin: The price is inflated, but not "artificially" so

Riiiiight. Which is why the profits that the oil companies make are going up faster than the price per barrel.

All that demonstrates is that we are willing to pay a lot more for their product than we used to do. For various reasons.
Like I said, I don't consider futures trading artificial. I've explained why. If tomorrow we would discover another Ghawar or Cantarell field somewhere in the world, the oil price would collapse, still years before it would be able to actually come online. Fat chance of that happening, ain't it.


I wish I could live in a fair world, but that doesn't mean that I think I do.


I don't remember claiming anything like the contrary.

The world economy is picking up. The american economy isn't. Take the bus, take the train, bicycle, or walk. Welcome to the real world america.

I work out of my house -- fill my car up once a month, so I'm getting...never mind.

That's farking cheap.

aearra: The world economy is picking up. The american economy isn't. Take the bus, take the train, bicycle, or walk. Welcome to the real world america.

None of the above are possible for me. Maybe you should expand your understanding of the "real world" beyond a 100 mile radius from your house.

neaorin: All that demonstrates is that we are willing to pay a lot more for their product than we used to do.

Yes, but they aren't, which is why the price is ARTIFICIALLY INFLATED. WE pay more, THEY don't pay more (or as much more, if you're being pedantic). I give up, dude. I don't think you know what words mean.

cretinbob: Mobkey: 1.28/L here, which is 4.85/gallon I believe.

Stop biatching.

Yeah, but you get paid relatively more and most likely don't commute 50 miles a day like most people. Go fark yourself.

You have only yourself to blame for that.

Fail in Human Form: None of the above are possible for me

Then you planned poorly.

Is it cheaper to ride a horse to work now? Not sure how much maintenance and upkeep is on them nowadays.

Fail in Human Form: aearra: The world economy is picking up. The american economy isn't. Take the bus, take the train, bicycle, or walk. Welcome to the real world america.

None of the above are possible for me. Maybe you should expand your understanding of the "real world" beyond a 100 mile radius from your house.
That is the choice you made.

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: cretinbob: Mobkey: 1.28/L here, which is 4.85/gallon I believe.

Stop biatching.

Yeah, but you get paid relatively more and most likely don't commute 50 miles a day like most people. Go fark yourself.

You have only yourself to blame for that.

Fail in Human Form: None of the above are possible for me

Then you planned poorly.

bannerrefugee: Fail in Human Form: aearra: The world economy is picking up. The american economy isn't. Take the bus, take the train, bicycle, or walk. Welcome to the real world america.

None of the above are possible for me. Maybe you should expand your understanding of the "real world" beyond a 100 mile radius from your house.
That is the choice you made.

Well hell, I suppose I'll just farking quit then.

/You can pay rent with used newspapers right?

Fail in Human Form:

You can pay rent with used newspapers right?

I really don't understand what is so hard.

The media here in Indiana, one of the states to now join the $4+ list, keep saying nothing but "$5 a gallon for gas is coming......$5 a gallon for gas is coming....".

I just want to shout out: "Of course its coming because you idiots never shut the fark up about it. Stop saying its going to happen and planting the idea of it in big oil's heads. I guarantee they sit there in their giant cozy offices and say "they think gas is gonna be $5? Well then by God they're gonna get it.""

So there you have it, I don't blame Obama, I don't blame Big Oil.

I blame the media.

bannerrefugee: That is the choice you made.

Not everyone gets to choose from the same choices as everyone else. And honestly there are basically two major cities in the US, Chicago and NYC, with worthwhile public transit. Every other major city is pretty well too chicken shiat to make it happen.

I'm sure something similar has already been said, but my car just cost £81 to fill. That's about $131. For 230 miles if I'm lucky.

Ender's: untaken_name: So it is your considered opinion that allowing energy prices to be artificially high is the way to let your grandchildren have affordable energy? That does not make sense. If they are allowed to get away with artificially inflating the price NOW, what makes you think they won't do the same thing in the future?

Pssst. This guy is a major troll.

Eh, he could just be really dumb. I've met people that honestly believe the crap he was spouting. I never assume "troll" when "idiot" would explain the post. But I appreciate the heads-up; it means I'll be careful responding to him in the future. I *did* notice a decided tendency to repeatedly ignore logic, but, unfortunately, that trait is hardly exclusive to trolls.

/Maybe IHBT
//I will HAND just in case

Bush's fault

Just remember, it has nothing to do with the Bernank printing trillions of dollars. Nope, not a thing. Nothing at all. Definitely, not the cause ...

dmoynihan: neaorin: US demand is not global demand.

Errrp. U.S. demand (largest in teh worldz) is down 12.8% in a couple years

'Teh largest in teh worldz' is still less than 25% of demand.
like i said, the Chinese don't care about that. In fact they're happy to gobble up whatever you save. Same for India, Brazil etc. We are set to reach close to 90 mbl/day demand this year - source (new window)

dmoynihan:
/Or does we gotta wait for new signs of Goldman-funded tankers that are dry-docked in the UE and elsewhere?

Quick q: how much of the global oil needs can be hoarded away on those oil tankers? Bear in mind the world uses about 85 million barrels daily.
/ they were hoarding BECAUSE they thought the price was going up, not IN ORDER TO get the price up.

I blame Obama.

untaken_name: neaorin: All that demonstrates is that we are willing to pay a lot more for their product than we used to do.

Yes, but they aren't, which is why the price is ARTIFICIALLY INFLATED. WE pay more, THEY don't pay more (or as much more, if you're being pedantic). I give up, dude. I don't think you know what words mean.

It's not my fault you don't understand economics. I will set the price of my product to whatever you are willing to pay, even if costs stay (roughly) the same.