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(Some Guy)   Progressive student: "We should tax the rich to give the poor more opportunity." Conservative: "So you'd be cool with me taking some points off your GPA to give the dumb some opportunity, right?" Progressive student:   (thelookingspoon.com ) divider line
    More: Amusing, GPA  
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6173 clicks; posted to Politics » on 17 Apr 2011 at 8:03 PM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-04-17 08:49:31 PM  
Yay false equivalence!

Not that this isn't prima facie stupid, but let's break it down anyway:

Money is not the measure of opportunity. Money happens, it happens to people who don't deserve it and people who do. Capacity and capability are the measure of opportunity. Redistributing a person's GPA to a "dumb" person doesn't give the dumb person opportunity, it gives them a free ride. On the other hand, if say university were absolutely free, poor and rich alike would have equal opportunity to measure their success against each other in a competitive field.

Unfortunately college and universities have artificial barriers to opportunity, such as cost of tuition. A person with equal or greater capacity to learn and excel can be barred from doing so out of poverty. Of course, colleges and universities are not meant to be a measure of how rich you are, but a measure of how intelligent you are.

Ironically enough the analogy is so poor and yet enough people are revelling in it that it demonstrates that one doesn't need to redistribute GPA scores for the dumb to be successful. Plenty of retarded folks are lining up in adoration of these morons, offering to beat gay people to death or drag blacks behind their pickups or whatever hobbies conservatives partake in in celebration that we are once again convinced that the stupid excel just fine on their own.
 
2011-04-17 08:49:51 PM  

Robots are Strong: How about the fact that in an academic setting the dumb already have the same opportunities as the smart?


That's... not true even in the slightest.
The methods for funding of schools in the US, even at the public K-thru-12 level, is exceptionally inequal.
 
2011-04-17 08:50:51 PM  

nowt: As a matter of curiosity, how many black plantation owners were there?


Does Uncle Ben count? He owns a shiatload of rice.
 
2011-04-17 08:52:16 PM  
That is a stupid analogy and you are stupid for suggesting it.
 
2011-04-17 08:56:08 PM  
Let us complete the analogy: 100% estate tax. After all, everybody starts with the same GPA, right?
 
2011-04-17 08:56:16 PM  
That's great but it isn't the same. When the highest GPA's start firing and moving the colleges overseas to increase their GPA, you may be onto something. When the highest GPA's start advertising swill to have the lower GPA's use their GPA's to buy useless shiat, then we can talk. When the highest GPA's start using their GPA's to influence politics to ensure the lowest GPA's never ever increase their GPA, you might be farked.
 
2011-04-17 08:56:20 PM  
This is obviously a false equivalency, but I want to dive into it an examine why it's false, rather than just saying "Derp is derp."

In a capitalist firm a group of individuals work collectively to create or provide a good or service which is then sold on the open market. The return on the sale of the goods minus the cost of creating the goods equals the profit of the firm.

The owner of the firm (capitalist) or their representatives (management) determines how that profit is to be divided between dividends (which includes wages) and reinvestment. Because the decision making process is controlled by management, the greatest share of the dividends goes to management. This is the wealth distribution to which the term wealth redistribution refers. This leads to widespread wealth inequalities that would not exist if workers had a representative say in distribution of the dividends of their own labor.

GPA is not created collectively by the entire class (which is not a firm), and GPA is not the equivalent of the profit of the collective activity of a firm. To "redistribute" GPA presumes that GPA is distributed in the first place, which it is not.

Furthermore, there is no equivalent of the capitalist in the classroom. The teacher is not equivalent to the capitalist, as the teacher does not collect any profit from the labor of the students, nor does the teacher have ultimate control over the students GPA. No student is the equivalent of the capitalist, since no student has control over the distribution of GPA.

Thus the comparison of GPA to dividends is a false equivalency. They are not functionally similar.
 
2011-04-17 08:57:33 PM  

sponkster: GAT_00: That's a stupid analogy. The whole idea behind affirmative action is that it lets someone who doesn't have absolute proof of excellence, such as someone without a great GPA, into college so they can excel on their own merits. When they're given the chance to go to school and have it paid for, it's now their own terms on passing and failing. Why is it that conservatives are so unable to grasp actual systems and instead fall back onto bad analogies that completely fail to address anything? Are you all that invested in your own bullshiat that you've lost all ability to reason?

WOW so misinformed.


While I am as liberal as they come, I am a little perturbed at some of the affirmative action programs I've come across. My wife went to college in Texas. At the time, the Top Ten Percent rule was in effect - if you graduated in the top ten percent of your high school class, you were automatically accepted into any Texas public university.

She went to UT Austin. Her friend, who was also in the top ten percent of their class, also went to UT Austin. They grew up in the same neighborhood, went to the same school, had similar GPAs. Her friend's parents made a little more money and had a little nicer house, but that was it.

Her friend is also African American (my wife is whiter than a sheet). Her friend was invited into the "Pathways" program at UT. This involved much easier math courses (worksheets in college, for God's sake), extended tutoring hours, free homework assistance, etc, etc. My wife and her friend were still graded on the same scale.

I absolutely believe that there is still racism in America. I also think that in this particular case, Affirmative Action was unnecessary.
 
2011-04-17 08:57:38 PM  
Looks like some shiathead didn't learn about false equivalence in school.
 
2011-04-17 09:00:23 PM  

Lord Dimwit: Her friend is also African American (my wife is whiter than a sheet). Her friend was invited into the "Pathways" program at UT. This involved much easier math courses (worksheets in college, for God's sake), extended tutoring hours, free homework assistance, etc, etc. My wife and her friend were still graded on the same scale.

I absolutely believe that there is still racism in America. I also think that in this particular case, Affirmative Action was unnecessary.


Are you sure you know what affirmative action is?
 
2011-04-17 09:00:42 PM  
Oh and I think it is absolutely precious that these students are all naive and think that real life is fair and requires only hard work.
 
2011-04-17 09:01:37 PM  
If the university grading system was taxed like income, absolutely nothing would change. Just like how income tax is designed not to change the earning ranks from gross to net income, an equivalent system in grades wouldn't change the rankings of the students.

The valedictorian would still be valedictorian, the bottom student will still be on the bottom and employers would simply adjust to be a bit more sensitive to small GPA differences because everyone would be bunched closer together. So go ahead and tax GPA if you want.

//jeezus you people are morons
 
2011-04-17 09:01:39 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Lord Dimwit: Her friend is also African American (my wife is whiter than a sheet). Her friend was invited into the "Pathways" program at UT. This involved much easier math courses (worksheets in college, for God's sake), extended tutoring hours, free homework assistance, etc, etc. My wife and her friend were still graded on the same scale.

I absolutely believe that there is still racism in America. I also think that in this particular case, Affirmative Action was unnecessary.

Are you sure you know what affirmative action is?


...I suppose I don't, since if I did, you wouldn't have needed to ask.

Not being snarky, but how was I wrong?
 
2011-04-17 09:04:58 PM  

Lord Dimwit: ...I suppose I don't, since if I did, you wouldn't have needed to ask.

Not being snarky, but how was I wrong?


It sounds like your wife's friend was accepted into a program because she has (or claims to have) a learning disability, not because she's black.
 
2011-04-17 09:06:55 PM  
we all enter college with the same GPA so we should all enter adulthood with the same amount of money.

No more leaving or giving your kids money and 100% estate tax.
 
2011-04-17 09:07:05 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Lord Dimwit: ...I suppose I don't, since if I did, you wouldn't have needed to ask.

Not being snarky, but how was I wrong?

It sounds like your wife's friend was accepted into a program because she has (or claims to have) a learning disability, not because she's black.


No, this was a program specifically for minority students.
 
2011-04-17 09:07:16 PM  

skepticultist: This is obviously a false equivalency, but I want to dive into it an examine why it's false, rather than just saying "Derp is derp."

In a capitalist firm a group of individuals work collectively to create or provide a good or service which is then sold on the open market. The return on the sale of the goods minus the cost of creating the goods equals the profit of the firm.

The owner of the firm (capitalist) or their representatives (management) determines how that profit is to be divided between dividends (which includes wages) and reinvestment. Because the decision making process is controlled by management, the greatest share of the dividends goes to management. This is the wealth distribution to which the term wealth redistribution refers. This leads to widespread wealth inequalities that would not exist if workers had a representative say in distribution of the dividends of their own labor.

GPA is not created collectively by the entire class (which is not a firm), and GPA is not the equivalent of the profit of the collective activity of a firm. To "redistribute" GPA presumes that GPA is distributed in the first place, which it is not.

Furthermore, there is no equivalent of the capitalist in the classroom. The teacher is not equivalent to the capitalist, as the teacher does not collect any profit from the labor of the students, nor does the teacher have ultimate control over the students GPA. No student is the equivalent of the capitalist, since no student has control over the distribution of GPA.

Thus the comparison of GPA to dividends is a false equivalency. They are not functionally similar.


------------------------------------

This is all too complicated. The bottom line is that our tax system is specifically designed not to change the rank of those taxed. If I make $165K in taxable income, I will make more post-tax than someone who makes $164K, etc. Since GPA has no inherent value and the only thing that matters is the rank of the students, a tax would change absolutely nothing.
 
2011-04-17 09:08:18 PM  

Lord Dimwit: LouDobbsAwaaaay: Lord Dimwit: ...I suppose I don't, since if I did, you wouldn't have needed to ask.

Not being snarky, but how was I wrong?

It sounds like your wife's friend was accepted into a program because she has (or claims to have) a learning disability, not because she's black.

No, this was a program specifically for minority students.


And she's quite intelligent, I'd like to add. She's now at an Ivy League grad school getting her doctorate.
 
2011-04-17 09:10:02 PM  

Lord Dimwit: No, this was a program specifically for minority students.


Is there a link of some kind? Because a Google search for "University Texas Pathways" is coming up with nothing. Are you certain your wife simply didn't understand what this program was, or was she possibly making this story up?

It really doesn't make sense.
 
2011-04-17 09:10:21 PM  

Freep Impact:
I told him how disappointed I was in him for expecting me to pull the wagon while everybody else got a free ride.



This is how I know the person telling this story has never had a real job. Pulling other people in the wagon so that stuff gets done is half of my job.
 
2011-04-17 09:11:56 PM  
Rather than shaving points of high-performing students' GPAs (a false equivalency as explained earlier), a better analogy would be "do you think the professor should spend less time with you and more time with the troubled students?" The professor's time is limited, and higher-scoring students would be losing some of this limited resource in giving it to the lower-scoring students.

Also, the answer is yes, the professor (or at least TAs) should be spending more time with the students having trouble getting the subject matter. They're in school to learn, after all; if they already know it or have less trouble learning it, then..well...there you go.
 
2011-04-17 09:12:19 PM  

Some Dumb Freeper: Done it already. :)

I brought candy.

Everytime a student got a question right, I put it aside.

I separated each one so that the students thought they'd get the candy after class.

Then when class was over I shoved them all together and divided them evenly.

Lesson learned.


Interestingly, this could be used to teach a really good lesson.

Start with an empty bowl and a bowl of candy. Quiz the students, and every time a student gets question right, move three pieces of candy into the empty bowl. At the end of the class, divide all of the candy moved into the empty bowl between all the students, giving one piece to each student who answered at question right for each right answer. Divide the remaining two thirds between all the students, including those who earned candy by answering questions.

Repeat over several days. By weeks end the most knowledgeable students will be made clear, and the other students will cheer them on.

Now repeat the experiment, but give the empty bowl to the most selfish/greedy/gluttonous student in the class, regardless of their ability to answer questions. Allow that student to own all the candy and distribute as he sees fit at the end of the game.

You have now modeled socialism and capitalism for the students.
 
2011-04-17 09:13:10 PM  

tarkus1980: Freep Impact:
I told him how disappointed I was in him for expecting me to pull the wagon while everybody else got a free ride.

This is how I know the person telling this story has never had a real job. Pulling other people in the wagon so that stuff gets done is half of my job.


Here, here.
 
2011-04-17 09:13:54 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Lord Dimwit: No, this was a program specifically for minority students.

Is there a link of some kind? Because a Google search for "University Texas Pathways" is coming up with nothing. Are you certain your wife simply didn't understand what this program was, or was she possibly making this story up?

It really doesn't make sense.


I'm not making it up, though I can't promise that it was called "Pathways".

Here we go. Gateway, not Pathway. Sorry. http://www.utexas.edu/diversity/ddce/lcae/gateway.php
 
2011-04-17 09:16:42 PM  

skepticultist: Some Dumb Freeper: Done it already. :)

I brought candy.

Everytime a student got a question right, I put it aside.

I separated each one so that the students thought they'd get the candy after class.

Then when class was over I shoved them all together and divided them evenly.

Lesson learned.

Interestingly, this could be used to teach a really good lesson.

Start with an empty bowl and a bowl of candy. Quiz the students, and every time a student gets question right, move three pieces of candy into the empty bowl. At the end of the class, divide all of the candy moved into the empty bowl between all the students, giving one piece to each student who answered at question right for each right answer. Divide the remaining two thirds between all the students, including those who earned candy by answering questions.

Repeat over several days. By weeks end the most knowledgeable students will be made clear, and the other students will cheer them on.

Now repeat the experiment, but give the empty bowl to the most selfish/greedy/gluttonous student in the class, regardless of their ability to answer questions. Allow that student to own all the candy and distribute as he sees fit at the end of the game.

You have now modeled socialism and capitalism for the students.


Instead of giving the bowl to the most greedy student, give it to the student whose parents made the most money in the preceding twelve months, since that means that that person is obviously the most fit to decide how to divide resources.
 
2011-04-17 09:16:55 PM  

Cinaed: Robots are Strong: How about the fact that in an academic setting the dumb already have the same opportunities as the smart?

That's... not true even in the slightest.
The methods for funding of schools in the US, even at the public K-thru-12 level, is exceptionally inequal.


Well sure, but thats the poor getting farked, not the dumb.
 
2011-04-17 09:18:24 PM  

Robots are Strong: Well sure, but thats the poor getting farked, not the dumb.


The poor generally lack the appreciation for education and the benefits it can provide to their own progeny.

Poor and dumb has a strong correlation.
 
2011-04-17 09:18:35 PM  
The rich MUST have the fark taxed out of them. It's the only way to keep monsters like JP Morgan from coming back.
images.huffingtonpost.com
 
2011-04-17 09:18:50 PM  

Robots are Strong: Cinaed: Robots are Strong: How about the fact that in an academic setting the dumb already have the same opportunities as the smart?

That's... not true even in the slightest.
The methods for funding of schools in the US, even at the public K-thru-12 level, is exceptionally inequal.

Well sure, but thats the poor getting farked, not the dumb.


When I was in high school, the state enacted the "Robin Hood" program. I have no idea if that was its official name or not, but the point is that it would take some of the revenue in richer school districts from taxation and divert it to poorer areas of the state.

There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth, and I was quite in the minority for asking why the students in the poorer areas somehow deserved worse education because of where they happened to live.
 
2011-04-17 09:19:22 PM  

Shaggy_C: GPA is a zero-sum game. Every A causes someone else to go wanting!

Oh, wait...You mean the total points available in a class aren't split between all of the students, and makes this entire comparison invalid?


Well wait a minute, are you suggesting that wealth creation and economic growth is a zero-sum game?
 
2011-04-17 09:19:34 PM  
What about the 10 or 11 points of my GPA that goes to the school school bully to give nerds wedgies? Can I have that back?
 
2011-04-17 09:20:41 PM  
What Liberal Establishment? The goal posts have been moved so far to the Right St. Reagan wouldn't qualify as a Real Conservative.
 
2011-04-17 09:21:16 PM  

balloot: This is all too complicated. The bottom line is that our tax system is specifically designed not to change the rank of those taxed. If I make $165K in taxable income, I will make more post-tax than someone who makes $164K, etc. Since GPA has no inherent value and the only thing that matters is the rank of the students, a tax would change absolutely nothing.


Depends on the tax structure. If it was designed to equalize outcomes and give everyone the same grade point average then it certainly would have an effect on the rankings of students.

e.g. If Bob earns a 4.0 and Joe earns a 2.0 and I redistribute the GPA so that Joe and Bob each earn a 3.0, then I have totally distorted the outcomes. Which seems to be the implication of the argument.

If it were a simple flat tax or even a progressive curve tax on GPA, then yes, it would have no effect. But the term "GPA redistribution" implies that GPA would be taken from the "top earners" and redistributed to the lowest earners. And I'm assuming it would be redistributed towards equal outcomes because conservatives all seem to believe that the goal of progressives is equalized outcomes regardless of merit.
 
2011-04-17 09:21:47 PM  
There is also a subtle undertone saying that people with lower income, don't work as hard as the rich. The middle and lower class break their backs for pennies.
 
2011-04-17 09:22:36 PM  

Lord Dimwit: Here we go. Gateway, not Pathway. Sorry. http://www.utexas.edu/diversity/ddce/lcae/gateway.php


Yeah, I think your wife is confused. According to the website, this program offers optional math and science labs for students who want extra help. It doesn't mean she was taking easier courses for the same credit.
 
2011-04-17 09:22:37 PM  
Your blog is bad and you should feel bad!
 
2011-04-17 09:23:09 PM  

Bocanegra: How's that whole "tax the rich" thing working out for Europe?

lulz


Check out Germany you super genius.
 
2011-04-17 09:23:57 PM  

GAT_00: That's a stupid analogy. The whole idea behind affirmative action is that it lets someone who doesn't have absolute proof of excellence, such as someone without a great GPA, into college so they can excel on their own merits.


so much fail.

do you understand that there is competition to get into colleges?
Or do you think that every college accepts every applicant?
 
2011-04-17 09:24:04 PM  

Hydra: Well wait a minute, are you suggesting that wealth creation and economic growth is a zero-sum game?


No, but wealth distribution within a firm certainly is a zero-sum game. A pie cannot be split in such a way that every slice is the largest unless every slice is equal, so any slice that is larger than any other slice must necessarily reduce the size of some other slice.
 
2011-04-17 09:24:49 PM  

skepticultist: Some Dumb Freeper: Done it already. :)

I brought candy.

Everytime a student got a question right, I put it aside.

I separated each one so that the students thought they'd get the candy after class.

Then when class was over I shoved them all together and divided them evenly.

Lesson learned.

Interestingly, this could be used to teach a really good lesson.

Start with an empty bowl and a bowl of candy. Quiz the students, and every time a student gets question right, move three pieces of candy into the empty bowl. At the end of the class, divide all of the candy moved into the empty bowl between all the students, giving one piece to each student who answered at question right for each right answer. Divide the remaining two thirds between all the students, including those who earned candy by answering questions.

Repeat over several days. By weeks end the most knowledgeable students will be made clear, and the other students will cheer them on.

Now repeat the experiment, but give the empty bowl to the most selfish/greedy/gluttonous student in the class, regardless of their ability to answer questions. Allow that student to own all the candy and distribute as he sees fit at the end of the game.

You have now modeled socialism and capitalism for the students.


------------------

Your first example is obviously socialism. Is the 2nd one supposed to be capitalism?
 
2011-04-17 09:26:05 PM  
Lefties can't take it when logic and reason hits them in the face. Are they still waiting for Obumbles to redistribute the wealth? Maybe they can get a few GPA points from him instead...once he releases his grades, of course ;)
 
2011-04-17 09:27:34 PM  

Lord Dimwit: LouDobbsAwaaaay: Lord Dimwit: ...I suppose I don't, since if I did, you wouldn't have needed to ask.

Not being snarky, but how was I wrong?

It sounds like your wife's friend was accepted into a program because she has (or claims to have) a learning disability, not because she's black.

No, this was a program specifically for minority students.


Well, being a UT grad myself, I can say that Texas doesn't always address race in the best way.
 
2011-04-17 09:27:59 PM  

Hydra: Shaggy_C: GPA is a zero-sum game. Every A causes someone else to go wanting!

Oh, wait...You mean the total points available in a class aren't split between all of the students, and makes this entire comparison invalid?

Well wait a minute, are you suggesting that wealth creation and economic growth is a zero-sum game?


The amount of wealth in an economy at any given time is most certainly a zero-sum game.
 
2011-04-17 09:28:59 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: do you understand that there is competition to get into colleges?
Or do you think that every college accepts every applicant?


Do you think colleges accept an applicant that demonstrates superior scores but cannot pay the tuition over one that demonstrates inferior scores but can?

Once again, conservatives demonstrate a clear lack of thinking abilities.
 
2011-04-17 09:29:08 PM  
The only realistic way to address our federal fiscal crisis is to allow taxes on the wealthiest Americans to go back to the levels they were at under President Clinton.
 
2011-04-17 09:29:13 PM  

Shaggy_C: GPA is a zero-sum game. Every A causes someone else to go wanting!

Oh, wait...You mean the total points available in a class aren't split between all of the students, and makes this entire comparison invalid?



As much as I think the GPA-Wealth comparison is BS. You are wrong in a way. You've never hear of grading on a curve? Yes, some teachers will only give out so many A's regardless of how good everyone does.

A semi smart person in a class of really smart people will get a lower GPA than if he was in the same course but with less smart people. Even if the quality of his work was exactly the same in both cases.


/Side note: I've even heard of teachers grading on a curve in math or science classes, which is retarded.
//I mean, if you solve 95% of the math questions correct, you should get an A, regardless if everyone else in the class solved 100% of them right.
 
2011-04-17 09:29:13 PM  
Conservative: "So you'd be cool with me taking some points off your GPA to give the dumb some opportunity, right?"

Progressive student: That's called "Grading on a Curve", numbnuts.
 
2011-04-17 09:31:27 PM  

skepticultist: balloot: This is all too complicated. The bottom line is that our tax system is specifically designed not to change the rank of those taxed. If I make $165K in taxable income, I will make more post-tax than someone who makes $164K, etc. Since GPA has no inherent value and the only thing that matters is the rank of the students, a tax would change absolutely nothing.

Depends on the tax structure. If it was designed to equalize outcomes and give everyone the same grade point average then it certainly would have an effect on the rankings of students.

e.g. If Bob earns a 4.0 and Joe earns a 2.0 and I redistribute the GPA so that Joe and Bob each earn a 3.0, then I have totally distorted the outcomes. Which seems to be the implication of the argument.

If it were a simple flat tax or even a progressive curve tax on GPA, then yes, it would have no effect. But the term "GPA redistribution" implies that GPA would be taken from the "top earners" and redistributed to the lowest earners. And I'm assuming it would be redistributed towards equal outcomes because conservatives all seem to believe that the goal of progressives is equalized outcomes regardless of merit.


------------------------

WTF are you talking about? Here in the USA, and in every other civilized country in the world, we have a progressive income tax system that does NOT change the income rank of those taxed.

So yeah, I guess if you're arguing against a tax system that absolutely nobody uses and absolutely nobody is arguing for, I guess you have a solid counterpoint!
 
2011-04-17 09:34:55 PM  
GPA IS NOT farkING SCARCE YOU STUPID BASTARDS
 
2011-04-17 09:36:10 PM  

Mugato: Rich != smart.


Rich does not equal smart, regardless of how excited you are about the rich.
 
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