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(The Raw Story)   Why do we kill people who kill people to show people that people killing people is wrong, people?   (rawstory.com ) divider line
    More: Ironic, Hosni Mubarak, found guilty, Al-Ahram  
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16780 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Apr 2011 at 3:18 PM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-04-15 03:43:21 PM  
Subby is a little confused.

We kill bad people who kill good people to show that killing good people is wrong. Killing bad people isn't wrong, that's why there's no moral conflict or cognitive dissonance involved in doing so.
 
2011-04-15 03:43:25 PM  
Christians that kill people aren't actually Christians.

Just thought I'd point out the obvious.
 
2011-04-15 03:43:57 PM  
Because that's not why we kill them.
The point is to remove them from the Earth since they can't be trusted not to murder you.

apeiron242: False. If it was true then death row should be empty by now.


Bullshiat. A dead person cannot kill anyone else. It is not meant as a "warning" to deter others. Anyone psychotic enough to murder will murder, and they simply need to be removed.
 
2011-04-15 03:44:14 PM  
Those who are against the death penalty should have the opportunity to adopt a killer from death row and feel good about saving a worthless life.
 
2011-04-15 03:44:43 PM  
What do you mean by "we", Egyptian man?
 
2011-04-15 03:44:49 PM  

Mobutu: Some people can be redeemed; rehabilitated. Others probably not. Who can decide that? At the same time, how much money do we want to throw away keeping them locked up?


I do tend to agree with you, except on 2 points.
1. In the US justice system, there is a reasonable doubt that the person who has been convicted of capital murder is even guilty of the crime (new window)
Hence the success of Project Innocence.
So, sentance someone to die and not only have you killed the wrong person, but the right person might still be out there killing people.

2. It's actually cheaper to keep someone in jail for life than to put them on trial with capital consequences, because of the mandatory appeals involved (and no, I won't agree to stopping those appeals to save money...see number 1)

So... life in prison-no parole, with the possibility of finding of innocence if new evidence arrives is the least expensive and most viable alternative.

And let's make room for these murderers by not arresting the teenagers with a spliff in their pockets, mmmmkay?
 
2011-04-15 03:44:58 PM  

Silly_Sot: PS: Put child molesters on that list, too. In fact, put child molesters ahead of the murderers


In the early 2000s Texas and Louisiana passed laws allowing the death penalty for a sexual assault of a child (repeat offender.)

The US Supreme Court ruled those laws were too harsh because other states don't execute child rapists. The attorney for Louisiana aruged that "evolving standards of decency" and better understanding of psychology means that the citizens of his state now consider rape of a child a more serious crime than they did in previous generations and he expected other states to adopt these rules in the future. Its funny because not 6 months earlier an attorney in an anti-death penalty case used "evolving standards of decency" as his justification for asking the court to consider banning lethal injection altogether.
 
2011-04-15 03:45:46 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Christians that kill people aren't actually Christians.

Just thought I'd point out the obvious.


Who's claiming to be a Christian?
 
2011-04-15 03:46:13 PM  

apeiron242: Sirjohnfalstaff: Dead people can't kill any more people.

Or be released when the evidence proves they were innocent. Nor can they be rehabilitated.


Posthumous pardon. Problem solved.

TheWhoppah: Execution prevents a killer from killing anyone else, and also prevents additional murders. We should have more executions and they should be done in public.

False. If it was true then death row should be empty by now.


You liberals are just drawing it out too long. Get it sentenced, get it over with.

Silly_Sot: We kill murderers for the same reason we kill rabid dogs--so they will no longer be a threat to others

Imprisoned murderers are no longer a threat.


Except to other prisoners, guards, and anyone else who might have something to lose, unlike these animals. You want to volunteer to read to them every night before bed?
 
2011-04-15 03:46:36 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Christians that kill people aren't actually Christians.

Just thought I'd point out the obvious.


Tell it to the Crusaders, and the Popes who sent them. Tell it to the Inquisitors, and the church that employed them.
 
2011-04-15 03:46:50 PM  
*NO* punishment of any kind is a deterrent to stop crime.
None.
There will always be a majority of people who think they won't get caught, or have such mental problems they just don't care. There is no such thing as a crime deterrent. We lock them up as punishment and to keep them away from the rest of us. We execute them to prevent them from killing more people.
 
2011-04-15 03:46:58 PM  
while we are at it, can we do away with appeals for inmates on deathrow???

Just get it over with already
 
2011-04-15 03:46:59 PM  

FuryOfFirestorm: Throwing a serial killer or rapist in jail is just a waste of time and money. They can't be "fixed", and if they escape, they'll just kill or rape again.


A lot of stuff is a waste of time and money. We shouldn't kill people just because they're a waste of time and money. Also, rape is not a capital crime, nor should it be.
 
2011-04-15 03:47:16 PM  

LaraAmber: Shenanigans!: The death penalty:

Doesn't do anything to reduce the murder rate
Takes years to have someone executed
Costs the same as or more than imprisoning the criminal for life
Has often resulted in innocent people being executed for crimes they didn't commit.

That sounds like problems to solve, not an argument to do away with the death penalty.


Yep, good luck solving those problems. :)
 
2011-04-15 03:48:24 PM  

INTERTRON: FuryOfFirestorm: Throwing a serial killer or rapist in jail is just a waste of time and money. They can't be "fixed", and if they escape, they'll just kill or rape again.

A lot of stuff is a waste of time and money. We shouldn't kill people just because they're a waste of time and money. Also, rape is not a capital crime, nor should it be.


How about we leave that decision up to the rape victims?
 
2011-04-15 03:49:37 PM  

Shenanigans!: The death penalty:

Doesn't do anything to reduce the murder rate
Takes years to have someone executed
Costs the same as or more than imprisoning the criminal for life
Has often resulted in innocent people being executed for crimes they didn't commit

It's done for purely emotional reasons and really contributes nothing to society. Yay us.


this,
its cheaper and easier to lock them up for the rest of their lives. It also keeps them from wasting money by filing appeal after appeal that must go through the courts because the persons life is at stake. if you are locking them up for life with no possibility of parole, they can only appeal based on new evidence. And having them around later if it can be proved they are innocent seems like a good idea to me. Also, I've always wondered why the party that says government can't do anything right wants the government to be in charge of who to kill.
 
2011-04-15 03:50:19 PM  
i always found it amusing (yeah, a have a jacked sense of humor) that often those who are the most ardent supporters of capital punishment (giving your government the legal right to kill its own citizens) are often the same group of people that are strongly small government, no govt, anti-govt, skeptical of govt, etc, etc.
 
2011-04-15 03:50:38 PM  

tektwo: It may seem cold to say but, everyone dies. If a person commits the crime of murder sometimes that person forfeits the right to live. As with everything in life circumstances are key, the victim is key and the motive is key.

I have met people that no matter what would never change their mentality in regards to the value of human life, I have also met people who kill and hate themselves forever for doing it.

As a former soldier I live everyday with the pain and guilt of what I have done, does that mean I should be killed? Maybe, but some people don't even reflect on the action, they don't even mourn the people they kill. They don't view it as a horrible act of survival, they view it as glorious and even perversely enjoyable. To me that is so important in judging whether someone should pay the ultimate price for their actions.

We cannot read minds, but someone who has walked that path can usually tell in another person what is in their mind and heart.

Sorry if that sounds deep but I have thought a lot about this.


It's impossible to discern what is truly in a persons heart and impossible to deliver perfect justice.

For this reason nothing irrevocable should be done. The state, and no person, should have the legal power to kill.

Many people think execution is the ultimate punishment. I disagree. Continuing to live can be, and often is, worse than death.
 
2011-04-15 03:50:40 PM  

LaraAmber: INTERTRON: FuryOfFirestorm: Throwing a serial killer or rapist in jail is just a waste of time and money. They can't be "fixed", and if they escape, they'll just kill or rape again.

A lot of stuff is a waste of time and money. We shouldn't kill people just because they're a waste of time and money. Also, rape is not a capital crime, nor should it be.

How about we leave that decision up to the rape victims?


Let's also leave that decision up to the assault victims, or the robbery victims, or the theft victims. Each victim gets to decide the punishment for their victimizer, up to and including death. Is that how it should work>
 
2011-04-15 03:50:44 PM  
Shenanigans!:
Doesn't do anything to reduce the murder rate
Wrong! There are 17 new murders prevented by each execution.

Takes years to have someone executed
Only because we are careful not to execute the wrong person

Costs the same as or more than imprisoning the criminal for life
Only because we are careful not to execute the wrong person

Has often resulted in innocent people being executed for crimes they didn't commit
Wrong! Can you name even one innocent person executed in modern times? Even one? Didn't think so!
 
2011-04-15 03:51:07 PM  

Primum: Psycho/sociopaths should all be euthanized anyway.

Too bad they're mostly the poor and/or stupid ones who get DP'd.

There's some wealthy ones who could use a good hanging or gassing.


Sometimes, the really sexy ones also get DP'd...

... Oh. You meant Death Penalty'd.
 
2011-04-15 03:51:08 PM  

fat boy: Those who are against the death penalty should have the opportunity to adopt a killer from death row and feel good about saving a worthless life.


I'd be happy to adopt Cameron Todd Willingham, because it was demonstrated that he was innocent...

But wait, I can't. Because the state of Texas killed him.
 
2011-04-15 03:51:44 PM  

give me doughnuts: Tell it to the Crusaders, and the Popes who sent them. Tell it to the Inquisitors, and the church that employed them.


I can't. They're all dead.

But just because they thought that they were Christians doesn't mean that they were actual Christians.
 
2011-04-15 03:53:08 PM  

LaraAmber: INTERTRON: FuryOfFirestorm: Throwing a serial killer or rapist in jail is just a waste of time and money. They can't be "fixed", and if they escape, they'll just kill or rape again.

A lot of stuff is a waste of time and money. We shouldn't kill people just because they're a waste of time and money. Also, rape is not a capital crime, nor should it be.

How about we leave that decision up to the rape victims?


Because then it isn't even a pretense at a justice system, it is just a straight up revenge system.
 
2011-04-15 03:54:04 PM  
too bad we can't kill the killers before they are killers.

// isn't that one of the rationalles for abortion? kill the unwanted children so that the crime rate will be lower?
 
2011-04-15 03:54:46 PM  

Lando Lincoln: give me doughnuts: Tell it to the Crusaders, and the Popes who sent them. Tell it to the Inquisitors, and the church that employed them.

I can't. They're all dead.

But just because they thought that they were Christians doesn't mean that they were actual Christians.


That is the only way to define a Christian: "They believe they are."
 
2011-04-15 03:54:46 PM  
jasonjeffrey.files.wordpress.com
 
2011-04-15 03:55:07 PM  
I could be persuaded to drop my support of the death penalty if there was really a sentence of "life without possibility of parole". Some people are so evil and have committed such heinous acts that they should never again see the light of day.

The problem is that even in states where you have that sentence on the books, you find it actually means something like Parole in 20 years.

Then, you have people who are saying that such life sentences are themselves cruel and unusual punishment.

Since so few people on death row are actually put to death, but they can't get parole, I find it's a nice stop-gap.
 
2011-04-15 03:55:46 PM  

Lando Lincoln: give me doughnuts: Tell it to the Crusaders, and the Popes who sent them. Tell it to the Inquisitors, and the church that employed them.

I can't. They're all dead.

But just because they thought that they were Christians doesn't mean that they were actual Christians.


No part of being a "Christian" requires that you do not kill people. The doctrine of salvation visa via the NT allows for forgiveness for such actions. Unless you believe that whenever you sin you stop being a Christian till you ask for forgiveness. Makes being a Christian more like an on or off switch then a religious description though.
 
2011-04-15 03:56:35 PM  

give me doughnuts: That is the only way to define a Christian: "They believe they are."


They could actually use Christ's words and teachings. Ya know...just to mix things up a bit.
 
2011-04-15 03:56:39 PM  

TheWhoppah: Silly_Sot: PS: Put child molesters on that list, too. In fact, put child molesters ahead of the murderers

In the early 2000s Texas and Louisiana passed laws allowing the death penalty for a sexual assault of a child (repeat offender.)

The US Supreme Court ruled those laws were too harsh because other states don't execute child rapists. The attorney for Louisiana aruged that "evolving standards of decency" and better understanding of psychology means that the citizens of his state now consider rape of a child a more serious crime than they did in previous generations and he expected other states to adopt these rules in the future. Its funny because not 6 months earlier an attorney in an anti-death penalty case used "evolving standards of decency" as his justification for asking the court to consider banning lethal injection altogether.


The current witch hunt against sex offenders is likely to be found later to have made lots of mistakes - there is plenty of evidence to suggest that already, and past history is fairly clear on these sorts of moral panics tend to be very bad for lots of innocent people being caught up in them (the classic being the satanic child sex abuse rings that were all 100% bullshiat). Given this it seems a particularly bad idea to have the death penalty involved, unless your plan is to try and kill lots of random people in the hope the problem goes away and not have to deal with all the innocent people getting released in a decade or two.
 
2011-04-15 03:56:46 PM  

ReverendJasen: There is no such thing as a crime deterrent.


What a stupid thing to claim. The fear of punishment is the only reason I don't make MDMS in my kitchen.

Actually, its not just the punishment for me that stops me... if they take me away my kind will grow up without a father and the wife and kid wlll lose the house.

The fear of punishment is absolutely a deterrent. Otherwise you'd drive 90mph everywhere. Admit it.
 
2011-04-15 03:57:09 PM  
I'm generally against the death penalty but realistically I have to think about how I'd feel if I found someone I love dead and knew with 100% certainty who the responsible party was.

I'd like to believe I'd still hold my ground and realize "me taking a life in return doesn't solve anything." However, I'm afraid at that point the only reason I'd be against the death penalty is because I wouldn't be able to do it myself.
 
2011-04-15 03:57:53 PM  

INTERTRON: LaraAmber: INTERTRON: FuryOfFirestorm: Throwing a serial killer or rapist in jail is just a waste of time and money. They can't be "fixed", and if they escape, they'll just kill or rape again.

A lot of stuff is a waste of time and money. We shouldn't kill people just because they're a waste of time and money. Also, rape is not a capital crime, nor should it be.

How about we leave that decision up to the rape victims?

Let's also leave that decision up to the assault victims, or the robbery victims, or the theft victims. Each victim gets to decide the punishment for their victimizer, up to and including death. Is that how it should work>


I never suggested that the victims pick the punishment for the perpetrator at trial.

You are the one whole feels equal to passing judgment on whether rape should be a capital crime. Do you have any first hand experience with the long term consequences of rape? The nightmares? The self recrimination? The struggle to feel comfortable sexually? The need for expensive therapy?

Rape is not the same as getting mugged or your car stolen.
 
2011-04-15 03:57:56 PM  

TheWhoppah: Shenanigans!:
Doesn't do anything to reduce the murder rate
Wrong! There are 17 new murders prevented by each execution.

Takes years to have someone executed
Only because we are careful not to execute the wrong person

Costs the same as or more than imprisoning the criminal for life
Only because we are careful not to execute the wrong person

Has often resulted in innocent people being executed for crimes they didn't commit
Wrong! Can you name even one innocent person executed in modern times? Even one? Didn't think so!


www.uberdevelopment.com
 
2011-04-15 03:59:45 PM  
Better question: why are we so obsessed with being 'good'. We worry about doing the right thing so much, we do nothing at all, which in itself is wrong. Bad people are not afraid of good people. They're afraid of other bad people. To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to feed puppies, and a time to string a guy up for killing your child.
 
2011-04-15 04:01:35 PM  
I love how an article about a possible potential death sentence in another country, not involving any Americans, leads into a referendum on the death penalty in the United Stated.

Only on Fark.
 
2011-04-15 04:02:08 PM  

INTERTRON: FuryOfFirestorm: Throwing a serial killer or rapist in jail is just a waste of time and money. They can't be "fixed", and if they escape, they'll just kill or rape again.

A lot of stuff is a waste of time and money. We shouldn't kill people just because they're a waste of time and money. Also, rape is not a capital crime, nor should it be.


You sound like you have some rapists in your family.
 
2011-04-15 04:02:26 PM  

Clete Orris: I love how an article about a possible potential death sentence in another country, not involving any Americans, leads into a referendum on the death penalty in the United States.

Only on Fark.



Sorry for the typo... fat fingers, small laptop keyboard.
 
2011-04-15 04:02:44 PM  

INTERTRON: FuryOfFirestorm: Throwing a serial killer or rapist in jail is just a waste of time and money. They can't be "fixed", and if they escape, they'll just kill or rape again.

A lot of stuff is a waste of time and money. We shouldn't kill people just because they're a waste of time and money. Also, rape is not a capital crime, nor should it be.


You sound like a rapist.
 
2011-04-15 04:03:44 PM  

maddogdelta: Cameron Todd Willingham, because it was demonstrated that he was innocent...


Bzzzzzt. Wrong. Willingham set his house on fire and barbecued his three young children because he was angry at his wife. He didnt want the kids and had actually punched his wife in the stomach when she was pregnant with the infant twins that died in the blaze. Some fire "expert" came along 10 years after, examined the photographs of the scene, and said that the fire was MAYBE not arson. Meanwhile, the guys that actually investigated the fire said it was, and still say it was.

Anyway, there was more than enough non-scientific evidence to convict him. His neighbors saw him standing around the house, looking in the windows and doors, and generally peeping in a few minutes before the smoke started escaping. He was watching the fire grow. Also there were 3 or 4 empty containers of charcoal lighter fluid. He told 5 different stories of how it happened and he confessed to a jailhouse snitch and also to his wife. You don't need to be an arson investigator to figure out what happened.

Willingham was guilty and he got off easy with a lethal injection. He should have been burned at the stake.
 
2011-04-15 04:04:09 PM  
The problem with the death penalty is that there is zero acceptable false conviction rate, yet the justice system is not perfect.

So we should just have life in prison without parole.
 
2011-04-15 04:05:15 PM  

Lando Lincoln: give me doughnuts: That is the only way to define a Christian: "They believe they are."

They could actually use Christ's words and teachings. Ya know...just to mix things up a bit.


That's not a requirement.
 
2011-04-15 04:05:51 PM  
LaraAmber:
Doesn't do anything to reduce the murder rate

Neither does jail. When most murders leave/escape jail, they kill again.

Takes years to have someone executed

Fix the appeals process. If convicted, you only get to file an appeal only if there is new proof or evidence that warrants one. No more stalling by filing one flimsy appeal after another.

Costs the same as or more than imprisoning the criminal for life

Once the appeals process has been streamlined, it'll be cheaper to execute a serial killer rather than paying his food & shelter for 25 years.

Has often resulted in innocent people being executed for crimes they didn't commit.

Only repeat offenders will be eligible for the death penalty. If this is your first charge for rape or murder, then the worst you can get is life in jail. However, if you've been tried for rape/murder/molestation before, odds are that you're guilty as opposed to just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
 
2011-04-15 04:06:24 PM  

TheWhoppah: The fear of punishment is absolutely a deterrent. Otherwise you'd drive 90mph everywhere. Admit it.


You or I are not the ones to worry about.
Just because you're scared of the penalty for cooking up some MDMA in your kitchen, means nothing to the thousands and thousands who don't give a shiat.
Just because I don't want to die while doing 90 down an alley doesn't stop thousands of other idiots who do it every day.

Rational people do not need strict punishments as deterrents for these things--we generally wouldn't do them anyway. Those people who have the propensity and desire to commit such crimes will continue to commit them, no matter what punishment we dream up for it. Just as anti-DP people love to bring up. The death penalty does not deter murders. It's not meant to.
 
2011-04-15 04:08:19 PM  

TheWhoppah: maddogdelta: Cameron Todd Willingham, because it was demonstrated that he was innocent...

Bzzzzzt. Wrong. Willingham set his house on fire and barbecued his three young children because he was angry at his wife. He didnt want the kids and had actually punched his wife in the stomach when she was pregnant with the infant twins that died in the blaze. Some fire "expert" came along 10 years after, examined the photographs of the scene, and said that the fire was MAYBE not arson. Meanwhile, the guys that actually investigated the fire said it was, and still say it was.

Anyway, there was more than enough non-scientific evidence to convict him. His neighbors saw him standing around the house, looking in the windows and doors, and generally peeping in a few minutes before the smoke started escaping. He was watching the fire grow. Also there were 3 or 4 empty containers of charcoal lighter fluid. He told 5 different stories of how it happened and he confessed to a jailhouse snitch and also to his wife. You don't need to be an arson investigator to figure out what happened.

Willingham was guilty and he got off easy with a lethal injection. He should have been burned at the stake.


Willingham was innocent, and got railroaded by a prosecutor who needed to convict somebody. The fire "expert" testified at his trial. The actual expert bebunked all that previous testimony.
 
2011-04-15 04:08:35 PM  

LaraAmber: I never suggested that the victims pick the punishment for the perpetrator at trial.


Actually, you said exactly that. See:

INTERTRON: rape is not a capital crime, nor should it be.

LaraAmber: How about we leave that decision up to the rape victims?

LaraAmber: I never suggested that the victims pick the punishment for the perpetrator



Do you have any first hand experience with the long term consequences of rape? The nightmares? The self recrimination? The struggle to feel comfortable sexually? The need for expensive therapy?

Murder victims don't have to worry about all that because they're dead. They can't wake up from nightmares because they're dead. They can't feel comfortable sexually because they're dead. They can't get better from therapy because they're farking dead.

Rape is not equivalent to being murdered.
 
2011-04-15 04:09:42 PM  
The only reason the death penalty "costs more" is that we are soooo careful not to execute the wrong guy. Death penalty cases get an automatic appeal in both state and federal court. Life in prison?? They just lock you up and throw away the key and nobody cares if you are innocent.

If we gave life in prison cases the same amount of scrutiny and "due process" that we give to death cases these would actually be a LOT more expensive since you have all that end-of-life healthcare to pay for older prisoners... and the execution chemicals are actually really cheap.
 
2011-04-15 04:09:45 PM  

Saborlas: We just like killing people. We'll trot out any excuse if it means we can justify killing.


This.
 
2011-04-15 04:10:48 PM  
So to close our mouths and kill our minds, they hung us side-by-side
 
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