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(Some Guy)   Student stabs himself in the hand with a pen to prove the existence of God. It didn't work   (collegiatetimes.com) divider line 439
    More: Strange, stabbing, emergency calls, student groups, stabs, Student stabs, Nicole Schrand, existence, resisting arrest  
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15489 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Apr 2011 at 3:04 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-04-14 10:55:27 AM

nubzers: (on Buddhism) Plus, its a very unique religion in that they are far more concerned with helping people than most other religions which I find commendable.


The Roman Catholic church has done and continues to do more to help people than any other group of people throughout history. In fact, there are those in the church that believe that is the only thing to do. For example; Gustavo Gutierrez and Mother Theresa, they both felt belief in God was a private matter and the only way on earth to worship God was to help one another. Just make sure people have food and shoes, stuff like that. No mention of Jesus was necessary or even helpful to the "liberation" theologists.
 
2011-04-14 10:58:04 AM

doglover: But were you to actually JOIN those people in the ceremony and invoke a god yourself, you would find that your reality was warped...


The real question is, are they warped because they believe in a god, or do they believe in a god because they are warped?

/active ingredient:placebo, how does it work?
 
2011-04-14 11:04:47 AM

phrawgh: Please don't mock the Lord! He loves all of you. You are his children. He created you. He is your Father! The Lord will not tolerate this. He will cast your souls into a burning lake of fire where you will be tortured by demons, your skin will be torn, your flesh pulled from your bones - eternal agony! Please repent so we can all met in Heaven with our loving and benevolent Father. Or, burn in hell for all time. It's your choice.


I'm not mocking "the Lord". I'm mocking you. If he exists, I'm fine with him - most of his followers, however, drive me nuts.
 
2011-04-14 11:05:15 AM
doglover

I'm only responding to the underlined bit because it's very important that you grasp one simple thing: reality is illusory.

yes, PERCEPTION of reality is subjective. a dog's reality is different from mine, and no less "real".

But the fact that "we" are here thinking and acting, whether our actions are "real" or simply the result of our own imaginations, means that SOMETHING actually exists. Empty space does not contemplate itself. There is an objective reality, but we can't perceive it.

Science is the attempt to uncover reality and overcome our natural inability to see the world as it truly is. It's probably impossible for us to perceive "reality", but it's in our nature to try, and I think it's a natural and admirable thing for an intelligent creature to pursue.

In essence, we ARE the universe trying to understand itself.
 
2011-04-14 11:19:55 AM

jaylectricity: Theaetetus: A for effort, E for execution. So we'll give it a C.

And what does Jesus's last name start with?

Bam, there's your proof.


You can't explain that.
 
2011-04-14 11:20:05 AM

doglover: If this is the case, you would be correct to say that gods are not real. However they can easily be part of your reality.


I know a few schizophrenics who will be glad to learn that reality is whatever they believe it is, and they can stop taking their medication now.

Your brain is misinterpreting what your senses are feeding it. That's fine and dandy, if you think it's fine and dandy, but don't farking tell me it's not happening. Yes, everything is subjective, but our societal definition of the word "crazy" is around for a reason.
 
2011-04-14 11:28:00 AM

FormlessOne: phrawgh: Please don't mock the Lord! He loves all of you. You are his children. He created you. He is your Father! The Lord will not tolerate this. He will cast your souls into a burning lake of fire where you will be tortured by demons, your skin will be torn, your flesh pulled from your bones - eternal agony! Please repent so we can all met in Heaven with our loving and benevolent Father. Or, burn in hell for all time. It's your choice.

I'm not mocking "the Lord". I'm mocking you. If he exists, I'm fine with him - most of his followers, however, drive me nuts.


Why not mock "the Lord?" He's a gigantic asshole, if the stories about him, or by him, are true.
 
2011-04-14 11:29:19 AM
Zamboro:

Literally every article about Christian misbehavior on Fark is full of Christians complaining about atheists. When this is pointed out one or two will issue a half-hearted single sentence condemnation of the Christian nutbar in question and then quickly return to complaining about atheists.

Talk about flippin' the script. Jeez...
 
2011-04-14 11:29:28 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: I'm not sure how stabbing a cross on the back of someone's hand will prove the existence of God.


Some people just don't understand it.
 
2011-04-14 11:29:42 AM

WarpZone: ...There is an objective reality, but we can't perceive it.
Science is the attempt to uncover reality and overcome our natural inability to see the world as it truly is. It's probably impossible for us to perceive "reality", but it's in our nature to try, and I think it's a natural and admirable thing for an intelligent creature to pursue.
In essence, we ARE the universe trying to understand itself.


There is a God, but we can't perceive Him. Religion is the attempt to understand God and overcome our inability to see God as He really is. It's probably impossible for us to perceive "God", but it is in our nature to try, and I think it's a natural and admirable thing for an intelligent creature to pursue.
In essence, we ARE the universe trying to understand itself. (Hey I just made that up!)
 
2011-04-14 11:34:24 AM
Religion = Superstition + $$$$$
 
2011-04-14 11:39:01 AM

Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion = Superstition + $$$$$


Economics = Superstition + $$$$$
 
2011-04-14 11:39:06 AM

Kome: Wade Duvall, who was also working at the table, walked away from the table to call police. Duvall, a graduate student studying physics, first called the Tech Police non-emergency number.

"They told me to hang up and call 911," Duvall said.

Really? Someone is stabbing himself with a pen and you don't first consider that an emergency situation?


I don't. Does he not have a right to stab himself?
 
2011-04-14 11:40:55 AM

Ablejack: Inflatable Rhetoric: Religion = Superstition + $$$$$

Economics = Superstition + $$$$$


That, too.

You can get paid for predicting the weather, economic predictions, and religion and never be accountable.
 
2011-04-14 11:46:14 AM

WarpZone: In essence, we ARE the universe trying to understand itself.


Perhaps we are the universe trying to figure out why some particles ever decided that they didn't understand in the first place
 
2011-04-14 11:47:39 AM

Ablejack: WarpZone: ...There is an objective reality, but we can't perceive it.
Science is the attempt to uncover reality and overcome our natural inability to see the world as it truly is. It's probably impossible for us to perceive "reality", but it's in our nature to try, and I think it's a natural and admirable thing for an intelligent creature to pursue.
In essence, we ARE the universe trying to understand itself.

There is a God, but we can't perceive Him. Religion is the attempt to understand God and overcome our inability to see God as He really is. It's probably impossible for us to perceive "God", but it is in our nature to try, and I think it's a natural and admirable thing for an intelligent creature to pursue.
In essence, we ARE the universe trying to understand itself. (Hey I just made that up!)


There is a Tooth Fairy, but we can't perceive Him. Religion is the attempt to understand The Tooth Fairy and overcome our inability to see The Tooth Fairy as He really is. It's probably impossible for us to perceive "The Tooth Fairy", but it is in our nature to try, and I think it's a natural and admirable thing for an intelligent creature to pursue.
 
2011-04-14 11:48:15 AM
A misguided boy deliberately stabs his hand with a pen.
His peers of differing beliefs and backgrounds immediately give him aid and contact strangers better able to help him recover from his self mutilation. They rush to his side to heal and comfort him. :: There is a God. (But seriously the boy did demonstrate his conviction of Faith rather well. He just needs to work on his understanding of Faith.)
 
2011-04-14 11:48:20 AM

WarpZone:
In essence, we ARE the universe trying to understand itself.


Carl Sagan wants his quote back.

"We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself."

/miss you, Carl, you benevolent genius.
 
2011-04-14 11:51:04 AM

Ablejack: A misguided boy deliberately stabs his hand with a pen.
His peers of differing beliefs and backgrounds immediately give him aid and contact strangers better able to help him recover from his self mutilation. They rush to his side to heal and comfort him. :: There is a God. (But seriously the boy did demonstrate his conviction of Faith rather well. He just needs to work on his understanding of Faith.)


Really? The altruism that was required for our social species to survive prior to the development of weapons is PROOF of a god? Because that's exactly the kind of evolutionary trait that makes a god unnecessary.
 
2011-04-14 11:52:47 AM
Ablejack
There is a God, but we can't perceive Him. Religion is the attempt to understand God and overcome our inability to see God as He really is. It's probably impossible for us to perceive "God", but it is in our nature to try, and I think it's a natural and admirable thing for an intelligent creature to pursue.
In essence, we ARE the universe trying to understand itself. (Hey I just made that up!)


last I checked, religion isn't "trying" to understand anything, it has everything pretty well figured out and put into neat little boxes. it "knows" that god exists, and created the universe and all of us, and it even "knows" what happens to us when we die. For the religious, reality was defined thousands of years ago, there's no attempt to understand anything new, there is no uncertainty, everything is right there for you to perceive.

Find and replace is not a debate skill, buddy.
 
2011-04-14 11:53:42 AM

kingoomieiii: Ablejack: A misguided boy deliberately stabs his hand with a pen.
His peers of differing beliefs and backgrounds immediately give him aid and contact strangers better able to help him recover from his self mutilation. They rush to his side to heal and comfort him. :: There is a God. (But seriously the boy did demonstrate his conviction of Faith rather well. He just needs to work on his understanding of Faith.)

Really? The altruism that was required for our social species to survive prior to the development of weapons is PROOF of a god? Because that's exactly the kind of evolutionary trait that makes a god unnecessary.


Not really. That's why I parenthetically stated "but seriously".
 
2011-04-14 11:53:47 AM

Ablejack: A misguided boy deliberately stabs his hand with a pen.
His peers of differing beliefs and backgrounds immediately give him aid and contact strangers better able to help him recover from his self mutilation. They rush to his side to heal and comfort him. :: There is a God. (But seriously the boy did demonstrate his conviction of Faith rather well. He just needs to work on his understanding of Faith.)


Did the devil make him do it? What was Satan's (or Satin, for a lot of believers) part in this?
 
2011-04-14 12:05:37 PM

WarpZone: Ablejack
There is a God, but we can't perceive Him. Religion is the attempt to understand God and overcome our inability to see God as He really is. It's probably impossible for us to perceive "God", but it is in our nature to try, and I think it's a natural and admirable thing for an intelligent creature to pursue.
In essence, we ARE the universe trying to understand itself. (Hey I just made that up!)

last I checked, religion isn't "trying" to understand anything, it has everything pretty well figured out and put into neat little boxes. it "knows" that god exists, and created the universe and all of us, and it even "knows" what happens to us when we die. For the religious, reality was defined thousands of years ago, there's no attempt to understand anything new, there is no uncertainty, everything is right there for you to perceive.

Find and replace is not a debate skill, buddy.


You have been simply wrong since you last checked. Religions arise and develop over time, and continue to do so. There are religious people doing serious work trying to further understand and question ourselves and our relationship with God and others. There is plenty of uncertainty, perhaps moreso than in any other field. There is for example the study of the numinous. What can be more uncertain?
As for the "find and replace" comment, it was simply a demonstration that the statement about science works just as well as a remark about religion. But you knew that, pal.
 
2011-04-14 12:12:09 PM

kitryne: doglover: It would be like a group of people who were blind from birth getting together to discuss how they don't like the color of rooms in houses they've never been in or heard anyone describe to them.

That's all very silly of you to say.
A) plenty of atheists are active in their atheist communities, some, much to many people's chagrin even proselytize.

2) It takes more effort to think for yourself than to follow

c)All of that is explainable by science.

Atheists aren't weird. We're the same as everyone, we just prove to believe what's written in the science books instead of religious text. Many atheists meditate. Buddhism is an atheistic religion, and those dudes are the kings of meditation.

Some people want to get together with other people who see things the same general way as they do so they can discuss things. Same as religions. You don't need to have faith in a deity for that.

And some people want to dispel the image that people have of us, that we're evil sinners who'll suck you into damnation or whatever the hell it is people think we do. They don't like us, that's the point. And we would like to change that, because we're pretty cool and maybe you might learn something in the process.


Your last sentence nailed it. They might learn something.
 
2011-04-14 12:15:08 PM

Schlock: To be fair, he probably reasoned that the campus cops were closer and might actually DO something more quickly


I don't know if VT has the same setup, but at UVA the 911 center is an integrated dispatch - whether you need U-police, city police, county police or sheriffs, fire, or ambulance, it's all 911. The non-emergency number is for administrivia - finding out if a particular officer is next on duty or such. For anything else, call 911, and open with "I don't think this is an emergency..." -- unless, of course, it's an obvious emergency.

Antimatter: Jesus claimed to be a demi-god at the least, that's a much more fantastic a claim.


Actually, it's not clear whether he did, or his followers later attributed the claim to him. Trinitarian Christians take the "demi-god at the least" side, but early American Unitarian Christians (John Adams and the like) didn't believe in the divinity of Christ or that he even claimed it.

doglover: If this is the case, you would be correct to say that gods are not real. However they can easily be part of your reality.


You appear to be confusing the map and the territory. A god and the idea of a god are not the same thing.

americanglob.com


Inflatable Rhetoric: I don't. Does he not have a right to stab himself?


He does. However, it's a behavior that is sociologically abnormal, of a sort that often tends to be associated with psychological aberration of a kind that has the potential to be hazardous to others. Having a cop arrest him for it is unjustified, but having a cop ask him what he's doing and why is probably reasonable caution, since they're more likely to be better trained to deal with the possibility of the observed self-directed violent impulses getting redirected to an external target.
 
2011-04-14 12:20:38 PM
Ablejack: A misguided boy deliberately stabs his hand with a pen.

Inflatable Rhetoric: Did the devil make him do it? What was Satan's (or Satin, for a lot of believers) part in this?

I do not pretend to know why he did it. He apparently claims it was to prove the existence of God. A psychologist might offer another explanation. For myself I do not actually believe it was the Devil that made him do it. As an atheist I don't believe there is the devil nor a God, although sometimes I play advocate for them.
 
2011-04-14 12:28:59 PM

doglover: The whole "Prove god exists and I'll believe." doesn't work when you don't actually go take a look at the proof which is found in certain religious practices. Oh, but wait, that takes physical and mental discipline to actually accomplish the proper depth of meditation so I'll just ignore 10,000s of years of indirect evidence of something important being here and just call it a life.

If you've actually taken the time, put in the sweat, touched the divine and still decided you do not believe that there's anything worthwhile to religion that's a commendable choice on your part, but STILL the group confuses me. You deny something for various reasons, so you don't care about it at all. It shouldn't even be a part of your life. Why waste time with declaring how much you don't believe in something with a bunch of people who feel the same way? Go play a sport or have another beer or something.

It would be like a group of people who were blind from birth getting together to discuss how they don't like the color of rooms in houses they've never been in or heard anyone describe to them.


That's a specious analogy based on a nonsensical argument. If you want me to prove to you that I own a car, I can drive over, pick you up, and show you my title over lunch.

If God is as difficult to detect as you seem to think he is--and by the way, you can see literally ANYTHING if you meditate hard enough--maybe he's not returning our calls for a reason.

I think it's quite likely something/someone/some group created the universe as we know it (well, actually as it/he/she/they know it, but still), but that whatever thing or being did so does not fit any existing human definition. It's just that it's always been easy for us to write off anything we don't understand by chalking it up to some invisible sky fairy.

To deists, by the way, THEISTS are weird. We set our ethics by what we CAN observe.
 
2011-04-14 12:39:43 PM

MikeBoomshadow:
To deists, by the way, THEISTS are weird. We set our ethics by what we CAN observe.


To some of us ATHEISTS, our ethics arise from our interaction within the linguistic environment, ie. the "world"; Which is also weird. Humans, if they are at all interesting, are all weird.
 
2011-04-14 12:40:35 PM

Ablejack: Ablejack: A misguided boy deliberately stabs his hand with a pen.

Inflatable Rhetoric: Did the devil make him do it? What was Satan's (or Satin, for a lot of believers) part in this?

I do not pretend to know why he did it. He apparently claims it was to prove the existence of God. A psychologist might offer another explanation. For myself I do not actually believe it was the Devil that made him do it. As an atheist I don't believe there is the devil nor a God, although sometimes I play advocate for them.


The only rational course is to burn some witches.
 
2011-04-14 12:41:06 PM
Ablejack
You have been simply wrong since you last checked. Religions arise and develop over time, and continue to do so. There are religious people doing serious work trying to further understand and question ourselves and our relationship with God and others. There is plenty of uncertainty, perhaps moreso than in any other field. There is for example the study of the numinous. What can be more uncertain?
As for the "find and replace" comment, it was simply a demonstration that the statement about science works just as well as a remark about religion. But you knew that, pal.


point taken. but realistically, most believers don't subscribe to newsletters that tell them the latest "breakthroughs" in religious research. They are taught as kids, and that's that. And it takes the church hundreds of years to acknowledge changing cultural norms, if they do at all.

So, although I understand and appreciate your perspective, I think the majority of religious people and leaders are pretty much bound to teachings that have not really changed much. For most devout religious people, the answers have already been found. In my mind, this is a folly of massive proportions and a great disservice to the followers of religion and humanity as a whole.
 
2011-04-14 12:55:12 PM

WarpZone: Ablejack
You have been simply wrong since you last checked. Religions arise and develop over time, and continue to do so. There are religious people doing serious work trying to further understand and question ourselves and our relationship with God and others. There is plenty of uncertainty, perhaps moreso than in any other field. There is for example the study of the numinous. What can be more uncertain?
As for the "find and replace" comment, it was simply a demonstration that the statement about science works just as well as a remark about religion. But you knew that, pal.

point taken. but realistically, most believers don't subscribe to newsletters that tell them the latest "breakthroughs" in religious research. They are taught as kids, and that's that. And it takes the church hundreds of years to acknowledge changing cultural norms, if they do at all.

So, although I understand and appreciate your perspective, I think the majority of religious people and leaders are pretty much bound to teachings that have not really changed much. For most devout religious people, the answers have already been found. In my mind, this is a folly of massive proportions and a great disservice to the followers of religion and humanity as a whole.


I agree. But still we do the best we can in all areas of study. There are always those who resist paradigm change. Consider for a moment the history of mathematics. These conservatives are not altogether bad for the progress of ideas. Often the conservative thinker helps to hone the presentation of new ideas and to keep the willy-nilly ideas in check. We both know that religions are notoriously suspect of revolutionary ideas. Vatican II (50 yr old official Catholic doctrine) is still considered recent and radical. As for the followers, I don't know what to say... "They know not what they do?"
 
2011-04-14 12:57:10 PM

Inflatable Rhetoric:
The only rational course is to burn some witches.


all too often.
 
2011-04-14 12:59:39 PM
"See, stabbed myself and no blood. Want to see it again?"

www.exposay.com
 
2011-04-14 01:11:45 PM

abb3w: doglover: If this is the case, you would be correct to say that gods are not real. However they can easily be part of your reality.

You appear to be confusing the map and the territory. A god and the idea of a god are not the same thing.


i think you are missing his point.
something becomes part of your reality when you can see or feel the tangible effects of its existence.
if you are poor and hungry and cold, and somebody provides food and shelter because of their faith, god is indeed part of your reality.
 
2011-04-14 01:19:46 PM

Popular Opinion: abb3w: doglover: If this is the case, you would be correct to say that gods are not real. However they can easily be part of your reality.

You appear to be confusing the map and the territory. A god and the idea of a god are not the same thing.

i think you are missing his point.
something becomes part of your reality when you can see or feel the tangible effects of its existence.
if you are poor and hungry and cold, and somebody provides food and shelter because of their faith, god is indeed part of your reality.


No, their beliefs, their claims about those beliefs, and their actions because of those claims and beliefs are a part of your reality. They may assert all of those are due to the existence of god. I can just as easily assert that they are due to their erroneous belief in the existence of God, and guess which one of us will be able to find evidence to support the position?
 
2011-04-14 01:20:31 PM

gaspode: The philosophical intelligensia have for 30 years been so immersed in relativism (one area where the right wings criticism of academia has merit) that this has until now been a woefully neglected subject.


Not all of them, but the ones who aren't are essentially voices in the wilderness. I highly recommend picking up Allan Bloom's works. Bloom is an example of a man who is castigated as a right-wing conservative shill simply because he questioned a lot of the fundamental assumptions of modern academia.

"As [Nietzsche] understood it, men in our current decrepitude could take it easy if they believed God, nature or history provides values. Such belief was salutary as long as the objectified creations of man were still noble and vital. But in the present exhaustion of the old values, men must be brought to the abyss, terrified by their danger and nauseated by what could become of them, in order to make them aware of their responsibility for their fate. They must turn within themselves and reconstitute the conditions of their creativity in order to generate values. The self must be a tense bow. It must struggle with opposites rather than harmonize them, rather than turn the tension over to the great instruments of last manhood-the skilled bow unbenders and Jesuits of our days, the psychiatrists, who, in the same spirit and as part of the same conspiracy of modernity as the peace virtuosos, reduce conflict. Chaos, the war of opposites, is, as we know from the Bible, the condition of creativity, which must be mastered by the creator. The self must also bring forth arrows out of its longing. Bow and arrow, both belonging to man, can shoot a star into the heavens to guide man." - Allan Bloom, Closing of the American Mind (1986) p. 198
 
2011-04-14 01:27:31 PM

Boris S. Wort: jaylectricity: Theaetetus: A for effort, E for execution. So we'll give it a C.

And what does Jesus's last name start with?

Bam, there's your proof.

You can't explain that.


youredoingitwrong.jpg

It's:
Pen goes in, pen comes out: you can't explain that!
 
2011-04-14 01:30:42 PM

doglover: But were you to actually JOIN those people in the ceremony and invoke a god yourself, you would find that your reality was warped and there really was and alien presence inside of you that was every bit a part of your reality as the layers you cake upon the rest of the world with other mental objects.


This is easily explained by both bias confirmation and physiological tendencies for the body to be more than the sum of its' parts. You are correct, there is nothing more complexed in the known universe than is what is sitting behind your eyes, but I attribute that to the striving of millions upon millions of years of planet Earth's biological function. We are the cutting edge of the planet and it is sad to play small minded games when what you're talking about is just scratching the surface of not only our imaginations but our possibilities. I don't believe there is anything that can be defined as "supernatural" only natural and amazing. Trust me, I've felt the power of my being, and I thank my lucky stars I was born in this body in this time in this country, it is very lucky indeed, but that's all it is, luck.
 
2011-04-14 01:31:28 PM

KiltedBastich: Popular Opinion: abb3w: doglover: If this is the case, you would be correct to say that gods are not real. However they can easily be part of your reality.

You appear to be confusing the map and the territory. A god and the idea of a god are not the same thing.

i think you are missing his point.
something becomes part of your reality when you can see or feel the tangible effects of its existence.
if you are poor and hungry and cold, and somebody provides food and shelter because of their faith, god is indeed part of your reality.

No, their beliefs, their claims about those beliefs, and their actions because of those claims and beliefs are a part of your reality. They may assert all of those are due to the existence of god. I can just as easily assert that they are due to their erroneous belief in the existence of God, and guess which one of us will be able to find evidence to support the position?


i think you would have a difficult time disproving the existence of god. go for it.

i find it funny that people who were raised in a judeo-christian society, under governments founded upon the tenants of those faiths and the rules set out by those faiths can so easily dismiss religion and claim it has no basis on human nature and society's morals and ethics.
"We would act the same if there was never any religion."
And just how would you know that?

People claim humans are just good on their own...and yet i read the news and see something completely different.

/not religious
 
2011-04-14 01:33:03 PM

The First Four Katy Perry Albums:
"As [Nietzsche] understood it, men in our current decrepitude could take it easy if they believed God, nature or history provides values. Such belief was salutary as long as the objectified creations of man were still noble and vital. But in the present exhaustion of the old values, men must be brought to the abyss, terrified by their danger and nauseated by what could become of them, in order to make them aware of their responsibility for their fate. They must turn within themselves and reconstitute the conditions of their creativity in order to generate values. The self must be a tense bow. It must struggle with opposites rather than harmonize them, rather than turn the tension over to the great instruments of last manhood-the skilled bow unbenders and Jesuits of our days, the psychiatrists, who, in the same spirit and as part of the same conspiracy of modernity as the peace virtuosos, reduce conflict. Chaos, the war of opposites, is, as we know from the Bible, the condition of creativity, which must be mastered by the creator. The self must also bring forth arrows out of its longing. Bow and arrow, both belonging to man, can shoot a star into the heavens to guide man." - Allan Bloom, Closing of the American Mind (1986) p. 198


"Get down on it. How you gonna do it if you
really don't want to dance, By standing on the wall?
Get your back up off the wall!" - Kool and the Gang, (echoing Nietszche's prescription to dance in the abyss, or simply celebrate in our creativity and existence- good times.)
 
2011-04-14 02:12:36 PM
Jesus is a hell of a drug.

You know the kid was standing there seething because atheists were on his campus, and he was praying for Jesus to help him perform a miracle to change these atheists into believers. Since Jesus is long dead and can't tell anyone anything, he had to come up with his own plan, which only succeeded in illustrating how batshiat crazy a lot of Christians are.
 
2011-04-14 02:16:04 PM

Popular Opinion: i find it funny that people who were raised in a judeo-christian society, under governments founded upon the tenants of those faiths and the rules set out by those faiths can so easily dismiss religion and claim it has no basis on human nature and society's morals and ethics.
"We would act the same if there was never any religion."
And just how would you know that?



I find it funny when people put up straw men and knock them down because it makes them feel like they've finally won something.
 
2011-04-14 02:18:14 PM

abb3w: You appear to be confusing the map and the territory. A god and the idea of a god are not the same thing.

Popular Opinion: something becomes part of your reality when you can see or feel the tangible effects of its existence.
if you are poor and hungry and cold, and somebody provides food and shelter because of their faith, god is indeed part of your reality.

KiltedBastich: No, their beliefs, their claims about those beliefs, and their actions because of those claims and beliefs are a part of your reality. They may assert all of those are due to the existence of god. I can just as easily assert that they are due to their erroneous belief in the existence of God, and guess which one of us will be able to find evidence to support the position?


More or less. I'd also note that just because you have an experience, does not mean you attribute the cause correctly.

But essentially, the illustration confuses the charitable theists idea of God, for God. The former exists; the latter, not so much. (And the idea doesn't even have to be self-consistent. There's probably an Invisible Pink Unicorn analogy that I'm too lazy to elaborate.)

Popular Opinion: i think you would have a difficult time disproving the existence of god.


Depends on the sense of the word "proof" you have in mind.

Popular Opinion: go for it.


Been there, done that. Nowadays, people seem to have convulsive fits when I bring it up here on Fark.
 
2011-04-14 02:28:46 PM

abb3w: He does. However, it's a behavior that is sociologically abnormal, of a sort that often tends to be associated with psychological aberration of a kind that has the potential to be hazardous to others. Having a cop arrest him for it is unjustified, but having a cop ask him what he's doing and why is probably reasonable caution, since they're more likely to be better trained to deal with the possibility of the observed self-directed violent impulses getting redirected to an external target.


Are you sure about this? I mean, he seems good and crazy. Couldn't we just tase him a few times to remind him of the pain the state can inflict and perhaps bypass his self damaging tendencies? This seems like a good time for a red flag party of intervention!
 
2011-04-14 02:28:49 PM

abb3w: (And the idea doesn't even have to be self-consistent. There's probably an Invisible Pink Unicorn analogy that I'm too lazy to elaborate.)


It's not often you see a fellow Unicornian (PBUHHH) these days. That damned upstart spaghetti monster has attracted all the kids to his new cult!
 
2011-04-14 02:41:48 PM

untaken_name: dbaggins: really? THAT is just something you can't get ? that atheists are moral ?

You haven't really tried to figure this out have you ?

Where do atheist morals come from? I am assuming you mean this definition of "moral", please link the correct definition if I'm wrong:
Adjective

* S: (adj) moral (concerned with principles of right and wrong or conforming to standards of behavior and character based on those principles) "moral sense"; "a moral scrutiny"; "a moral lesson"; "a moral quandary"; "moral convictions"; "a moral life"

If you are using this definition, how could atheists possibly be moral*? There is no right and wrong, therefore why would you concern yourself with the principles of right and wrong? It doesn't make any sense. I have actually spent a great deal of time trying to figure this out, but no one's been able to explain it to me in a logical manner. I hope that you are the one who can do it.

/*Please note that because there is no right and wrong, NO ONE can be moral, but since you specified that atheists can be, limiting your explanation to how atheists specifically can be moral will suffice, since that would provide a method by which non-atheists could also be moral.


The reason you can't grasp the concept of a moral atheist is because you are starting with a false premise. The false premise of a deity being the source of morality or right and wrong. In your own definition of morality, there is no mention of any divine mandate or inspiration. Simply an agreed upon standard. And if you actually study cultures, you will find that despite having very different religious and philosophical views, nearly all cultures come to the same basic morals: Don't kill each other, don't steal, share, etc. Why does morality have to come from a god? It seems the evidence points away from any divine inspiration for morality so there must be a natural explanation. Is it written in our genetics? Is it simply a social meme that is successful because its the only way societies can exist? Thats where science comes in. Gather the evidence, make observations, and experiment and see what happens. You will find that most atheists are humanists and do far more to help others than 99% of christians. Try talking to a few and find out.
 
2011-04-14 03:04:18 PM

abb3w: abb3w: You appear to be confusing the map and the territory. A god and the idea of a god are not the same thing.
Popular Opinion: something becomes part of your reality when you can see or feel the tangible effects of its existence.
if you are poor and hungry and cold, and somebody provides food and shelter because of their faith, god is indeed part of your reality.
KiltedBastich: No, their beliefs, their claims about those beliefs, and their actions because of those claims and beliefs are a part of your reality. They may assert all of those are due to the existence of god. I can just as easily assert that they are due to their erroneous belief in the existence of God, and guess which one of us will be able to find evidence to support the position?

More or less. I'd also note that just because you have an experience, does not mean you attribute the cause correctly.

But essentially, the illustration confuses the charitable theists idea of God, for God. The former exists; the latter, not so much. (And the idea doesn't even have to be self-consistent. There's probably an Invisible Pink Unicorn analogy that I'm too lazy to elaborate.)

Popular Opinion: i think you would have a difficult time disproving the existence of god.

Depends on the sense of the word "proof" you have in mind.

Popular Opinion: go for it.

Been there, done that. Nowadays, people seem to have convulsive fits when I bring it up here on Fark.


i suppose my posts are confusing you because i don't differentiate between faith in god and the actual existence of some sort of almighty being.
god, if he exists, exists in the hearts and minds of people with faith in such things. whether there is some actual being is irrelevant in the context of cause and effect. "god's" influence is undeniable, whether it's based on some hokey superstition or not.

Gothnet: Popular Opinion: i find it funny that people who were raised in a judeo-christian society, under governments founded upon the tenants of those faiths and the rules set out by those faiths can so easily dismiss religion and claim it has no basis on human nature and society's morals and ethics.
"We would act the same if there was never any religion."
And just how would you know that?


I find it funny when people put up straw men and knock them down because it makes them feel like they've finally won something.


i'm sure you were trying to make a point, but i missed it. sorry bout that.
 
2011-04-14 03:07:56 PM

trappedspirit: Are you sure about this?


Well, I'm not sure whether or not you're a cabbage.

trappedspirit: Couldn't we just tase him a few times to remind him of the pain the state can inflict and perhaps bypass his self damaging tendencies?


You could; but as I alluded, frequently self-damaging tendencies result from redirecting/sublimating tendencies to damage others. Tasering him is likely to redirect the tendencies outward again, which could result in a net detriment relative to other possible approaches. It's possibly more resource efficient to reduce the magnitude of the impulses first before risking redirecting them.

Gothnet: It's not often you see a fellow Unicornian (PBUHHH) these days.


Do bear in mind, while I've a mild appreciation, I'm not a follower. If anything, I'm more inclined to Discordianism - older school still.
 
2011-04-14 03:20:33 PM

Popular Opinion: i suppose my posts are confusing you because i don't differentiate between faith in god and the actual existence of some sort of almighty being.


Rather, I suspect that your failure to make the distinction is confusing your reasoning, much like a software programmer can get in trouble if they don't keep the pointers and variables distinct.

Popular Opinion: whether there is some actual being is irrelevant in the context of cause and effect.


On the contrary; there is at least one substantive difference.

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. - Philip K. Dick
 
2011-04-14 03:32:31 PM

nubzers:
Some farker: Where does an atheist's moral come from?

nubzers: The reason you can't grasp the concept of a moral atheist is because you are starting with a false premise. The false premise of a deity being the source of morality or right and wrong. In your own definition of morality, there is no mention of any divine mandate or inspiration. Simply an agreed upon standard. And if you actually study cultures, you will find that despite having very different religious and philosophical views, nearly all cultures come to the same basic morals: Don't kill each other, don't steal, share, etc. Why does morality have to come from a god? It seems the evidence points away from any divine inspiration for morality so there must be a natural explanation. Is it written in our genetics? Is it simply a social meme that is successful because its the only way societies can exist? Thats where science comes in. Gather the evidence, make observations, and experiment and see what happens. You will find that most atheists are humanists and do far more to help others than 99% of christians. Try talking to a few and find out.


You could easily argue (as Catholics do) that an atheist's morals come stem their faith in God as well. Pope Paul VI epistles on faith separate it [faith] from belief systems. Faith is described as a grace from God. As Jesus stated you do not have the authority to judge the faith of another. Nor can you be sure of your own. At best, we can pray for the gift of Faith but even that is no guarantee and is not necessary to have faith.
Geneticists and sociologists having an explanation for morality would not displace it from being God's work. For instance the Catholic position on evolution is that it is an "effectively proven fact"- (John Paul). Yet Catholics do not suppose this means God did not "create" man. Evolution (for Catholics) gives us a worldly explanation of how God created the corporality of man.
You have provided no reason that attributing morality to a deity is a false premise, any more than I have reason to claim that attributing morality to mundane causes is a false premise.
 
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