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(Some Guy)   Student stabs himself in the hand with a pen to prove the existence of God. It didn't work   (collegiatetimes.com) divider line 439
    More: Strange, stabbing, emergency calls, student groups, stabs, Student stabs, Nicole Schrand, existence, resisting arrest  
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15489 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Apr 2011 at 3:04 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-04-14 01:50:43 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Wow, he certainly murdered that strawman.


I'm happy to get into the nitty gritty here, but you'll have to elaborate a bit first..
 
2011-04-14 01:51:32 AM

Fuller: doglover - here's a short piece to help you understand skeptical/atheist philosophy. It's new, and it's funny and entertaining even if you (somehow) come away disagreeing with it.

Link (new window)


Actually, I think this deserves a more thoughtful reply. Isaac Newton was one of the most profoundly important people in the history of the world. Many scientists still hold him up as one of their role models. You really can't understate his importance to both science and math.

That was half of what Newton did. The other half was on theology and the occult. And it wasn't just because it was popular at the time: it wasn't. But between his work in science and theology, he considered his work on theology to be more important. Let me restate that: the man who invented calculus, thermodynamics, described gravity, wrote laws of motion, and more, spent more time writing on religion than on science.

But I'm supposed to listen to some beat poet when he tells me that religion is stupid and only idiots believe in it?
 
2011-04-14 01:54:53 AM

jaylectricity: Remember that time when Ashton Kutcher was in prison and he told his cellmate that he was Jesus? Then he went back in time and stabbed his hands in elementary school and when he came back to prison the religious guy believed him?

This is like that.


Will you be my facebook friend?
 
2011-04-14 01:55:35 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Actually, I think this deserves a more thoughtful reply. Isaac Newton was one of the most profoundly important people in the history of the world. Many scientists still hold him up as one of their role models. You really can't understate his importance to both science and math.

That was half of what Newton did. The other half was on theology and the occult. And it wasn't just because it was popular at the time: it wasn't. But between his work in science and theology, he considered his work on theology to be more important. Let me restate that: the man who invented calculus, thermodynamics, described gravity, wrote laws of motion, and more, spent more time writing on religion than on science.

But I'm supposed to listen to some beat poet when he tells me that religion is stupid and only idiots believe in it?


Yes, there are many scientists who did great science despite having some kooky beliefs. Is this supposed to be an argument in support of kooky beliefs?

He's remembered for the science. Not for the alchemy. If all he did was alchemy and occult stuff, he would NOT be the famous and respected figure he is today.

Plato thought that men had more teeth than women, and that flies were spontaneously generated from cow carcasses. Again, not why he's remembered.
 
2011-04-14 01:57:53 AM

doglover: The whole "Prove god exists and I'll believe." doesn't work when you don't actually go take a look at the proof which is found in certain religious practices.


For the sake of disambiguation, are you saying there is proof in certain religions?
 
2011-04-14 01:59:52 AM

Fuller: Yes, there are many scientists who did great science despite having some kooky beliefs. Is this supposed to be an argument in support of kooky beliefs?


It's an argument that says it's silly to just dismiss everything you can't observe with science as a "kooky belief." It's an act of extreme hubris by in effect saying you're so much smarter than people like Newton.
 
2011-04-14 02:00:15 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: But I'm supposed to listen to some beat poet when he tells me that religion is stupid and only idiots believe in it?


Also, he never said that only idiots believe in it. That is a real strawman. A blatantly dishonest representation of the message if there ever was one.

And also, Tim's not entirely a beat poet or anything, he's a comedian...here's some other great stuff.

Link (new window)

Link (new window)

Link (new window)
 
2011-04-14 02:00:51 AM
I can prove God exists.

Stab my hand.
 
2011-04-14 02:02:14 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: I can prove God exists.

Stab my hand.


I can prove my hand exists.

Stab God.
 
2011-04-14 02:02:58 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: It's an argument that says it's silly to just dismiss everything you can't observe with science as a "kooky belief." It's an act of extreme hubris by in effect saying you're so much smarter than people like Newton.


I don't say I'm smarter than Newton, where are you getting this stuff from? I simply benefit from being born later - which means there is a much larger body of accumulated knowledge available to me.

Because of this body of knowledge, any one of us could thrill Newton to his core with a lecture on what we now know.

And are you seriously advancing the argument that alchemy can't be dismissed as kooky? I thought it was a pretty safe example..
 
2011-04-14 02:04:52 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Fuller: Yes, there are many scientists who did great science despite having some kooky beliefs. Is this supposed to be an argument in support of kooky beliefs?

It's an argument that says it's silly to just dismiss everything you can't observe with science as a "kooky belief." It's an act of extreme hubris by in effect saying you're so much smarter than people like Newton.


"What I'm saying is, if God wanted to send us a message, and ancient writings were the only way he could think of doing it, he could have done a better job."

-Carl Sagan
 
2011-04-14 02:05:52 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: It's an argument that says it's silly to just dismiss everything you can't observe with science as a "kooky belief." It's an act of extreme hubris by in effect saying you're so much smarter than people like Newton.


We have access to information that Newton did not have access to - E&M theory, relativity, satellites, space probes, and countless others. In this way we are much, much smarter than Newton. That's not hubris.

I also see that you neatly dodged the question. Do you support beliefs in homeopathy, auras, psychics, flying spaghetti monsters, and so on?
 
2011-04-14 02:06:05 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: I can prove God exists.

Stab my hand face.


FTFY?
 
2011-04-14 02:09:19 AM
I like how the kid from the atheist group and the other kid from Campus Crusade for Christ teamed up to help the police officer and also complimented one another on the constructive dialogue they had.

Then there is this thread... lulz..
 
2011-04-14 02:25:08 AM

thismomentinblackhistory: Then there is this thread... lulz..


Hey don't look at me, I'm perfectly amiable. I've just had to (as per) defend non-believers and organisations comprised of such, from some pretty outrageous misrepresentations.
 
2011-04-14 02:25:29 AM
I like how an unbalanced religious nutball confronts a group of atheists claiming to be able to prove the existence of God, tells them to stab his hand with a pen and when they refuse to do him bodily harm, he stabs himself, attacks a cop, has to be physically subdued by the cop and others --including a student from a campus Christian organization-- but it's the atheists who are the unreasonable nutters.
 
2011-04-14 02:33:18 AM
You know, Egon, this reminds me of the time you tried to drill a hole in your head.
 
2011-04-14 02:35:39 AM

GreenAdder: You know, Egon, this reminds me of the time you tried to drill a hole in your head.


That would have worked if you hadn't stopped me.
 
2011-04-14 02:46:14 AM

GreenAdder: You know, Egon, this reminds me of the time you tried to drill a hole in your head.


that would have worked if you hadn't stopped me.
 
2011-04-14 02:46:52 AM
dag, yo. day late and a dollar short
 
2011-04-14 03:23:22 AM
chzhistoriclols.files.wordpress.com
 
2011-04-14 03:23:35 AM
fc07.deviantart.net
 
2011-04-14 03:25:52 AM
FTFA: "We don't believe in assaulting people," Schrand said. "We're very against assaulting people."

I don't get this. Why? You're just rearranging some molecules, man, what's the big deal? Not like anything you do will matter in a hundred years. Even if it still matters in a thousand years, eventually, the universe will run down and then nothing that happened prior to that will matter one wet fig. Besides which, some people really need to be assaulted. What about that? Very confusing.
 
2011-04-14 03:26:22 AM

doglover: Why waste time with declaring how much you don't believe in something with a bunch of people who feel the same way?


Because it's no fun to be the only sane guy in the loony bin. God does not have to exist in order to be a pain in the ass.

(not my blog, some ads may be NSFW)
 
2011-04-14 03:27:18 AM
Oh No Melon

Er...too late. Sorry about that. Wish I'd seen this about 2 minutes ago.

**zzzzzzziiiip**
 
2011-04-14 03:27:21 AM

doglover: What's weird is a community based around what is not even a lack, just a nothingness.


No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of.
 
2011-04-14 03:28:58 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: bighasbeen: So political parties are religions too?

Are political parties organized around beliefs regarding the divine? Well, besides the GOP.



You're reaching.

Sorry, but I still go with the bald is a hairstyle, and clear is a color as working analogies for atheism is a religion.

try them out for a bit. before you toss them off.
 
2011-04-14 03:30:21 AM
Theists profess to "believe" in things they cannot verify. That is insanity, plain and simple. All the pontificated arguments in this thread boil down to that one undeniable FACT. Theists are no different than some psycho fanboy who talks about Lord of the Rings as if that shiat had actually happened. Atheists choose to rely on what can be proven. Hey, I personally like the IDEA of god, it's pretty darn cool... some all-knowing father-figure who is always looking out for you, that's a freaking awesome idea. But to profess that a good idea is actually real just because it makes me feel good to think about it? That's just farking crazy, and that's pretty much what we Atheists are saying. It's awesome that you theists think that this "god" cat is so cool and loving, but at the end of the day, it's just a cool idea as far as you or anyone else KNOWS.
 
2011-04-14 03:30:50 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Fuller: doglover - here's a short piece to help you understand skeptical/atheist philosophy. It's new, and it's funny and entertaining even if you (somehow) come away disagreeing with it.

Link (new window)

Actually, I think this deserves a more thoughtful reply. Isaac Newton was one of the most profoundly important people in the history of the world. Many scientists still hold him up as one of their role models. You really can't understate his importance to both science and math.

That was half of what Newton did. The other half was on theology and the occult. And it wasn't just because it was popular at the time: it wasn't. But between his work in science and theology, he considered his work on theology to be more important. Let me restate that: the man who invented calculus, thermodynamics, described gravity, wrote laws of motion, and more, spent more time writing on religion than on science.

But I'm supposed to listen to some beat poet when he tells me that religion is stupid and only idiots believe in it?


You know he also stuck a needle in his eye to see what would happen, and by a number of accounts, was generally a bit of an asshole? That whole "If I have seen further, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants" wasn't him being humble.


But hey, let's not get carried away with the fact that Newton wasted half of his life on nonsense after giving up science at about 30.
 
2011-04-14 03:31:55 AM
Please don't mock the Lord! He loves all of you. You are his children. He created you. He is your Father! The Lord will not tolerate this. He will cast your souls into a burning lake of fire where you will be tortured by demons, your skin will be torn, your flesh pulled from your bones - eternal agony! Please repent so we can all met in Heaven with our loving and benevolent Father. Or, burn in hell for all time. It's your choice.
 
2011-04-14 03:33:56 AM

doglover: Atheist groups are weird.

Religion is a community. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Daoists, Wiccans; they all have provisions in their religions that create an organization of other members. In the monotheistic religions, their clergy are the voice of god on Earth. In the non-theistic religions like Buddhism, the community is seen as nessecary to provide the ideal environment for study of the religious principles so you can get deeper quicker and without wasting years and decades like the Buddha did.

But atheism merely requires you do nothing. And not all atheists are atheists for the same reason. Some approach it from a position of educated wisdom, but many more approach it out of reactionary ignorance. The whole "Prove god exists and I'll believe." doesn't work when you don't actually go take a look at the proof which is found in certain religious practices. Oh, but wait, that takes physical and mental discipline to actually accomplish the proper depth of meditation so I'll just ignore 10,000s of years of indirect evidence of something important being here and just call it a life.

If you've actually taken the time, put in the sweat, touched the divine and still decided you do not believe that there's anything worthwhile to religion that's a commendable choice on your part, but STILL the group confuses me. You deny something for various reasons, so you don't care about it at all. It shouldn't even be a part of your life. Why waste time with declaring how much you don't believe in something with a bunch of people who feel the same way? Go play a sport or have another beer or something.

It would be like a group of people who were blind from birth getting together to discuss how they don't like the color of rooms in houses they've never been in or heard anyone describe to them.


I agree with this. I'm an atheist, and I generally just don't care. If someone else wants to practice their religion, then that's their right (as long as they're doing it legally, no kiddie diddling or anything). I will engage in religious arguments with people who go off on me for being atheist, and I always find it amusing.

When someone demands that I prove God doesn't exist, I demand proof that he does. I really don't care, but I've known religious people in my time that were generally cool, and I've known a few bat shiat crazies that like to go nuts and give human beings in general a bad name.

I like to view religion as a coffee shop. Some people want lattes, some people just want the special of the week, some people want a soda, and some people just want a glass of water. It's their choice, and there's nothing stopping a pumpkin spice latte drinker from being friends with someone who ordered straight drip.

/will intentionally piss off religious nut jobs though
//sadly lost some friends in high school to some 'Christian reborn' thing
/people can practice their religion, but don't condemn me for not going with them to church
 
2011-04-14 03:33:57 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: doglover: Atheist groups are weird.

And they get so offended if you point out that atheism is just another religion. If you spend your time in an atheist group talking about how much you love being an atheist and setting up tables to convert other people to atheism then for that person, atheism is a religion.


It's not a religion.

The opposite of atheism is theism. Most of the religions mentioned in previous posts fall into that category. (Buddhism could actually fall under atheism or theism)

Atheism is a collection of many religions. That is why it is such a diverse group as a whole: it is not one group but a collection of many. If you stuck representative members off all the aforementioned groups in a room, they would seem just as eclectic.
 
2011-04-14 03:35:07 AM

untaken_name: FTFA: "We don't believe in assaulting people," Schrand said. "We're very against assaulting people."

I don't get this. Why? You're just rearranging some molecules, man, what's the big deal? Not like anything you do will matter in a hundred years. Even if it still matters in a thousand years, eventually, the universe will run down and then nothing that happened prior to that will matter one wet fig. Besides which, some people really need to be assaulted. What about that? Very confusing.



really? THAT is just something you can't get ? that atheists are moral ?

You haven't really tried to figure this out have you ?
 
2011-04-14 03:39:35 AM

doglover: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: If you spend your time in an atheist group talking about how much you love being an atheist and setting up tables to convert other people to atheism then for that person, atheism is a religion.

And a boring one at that! Seriously, would you rather party with the dudes who say "Our god is the god of wine. For him, AN ORGY!" or the guys who say "There's nothing but what physics already knows to life. Nothing. Yep. Still nothing."


"Would you rather" never has anything to do with discussing whether something is true or not.
 
2011-04-14 03:39:35 AM
I almost expected this to end with the professor dropping the chalk, it hitting his foot, etc....
 
2011-04-14 03:41:01 AM

untaken_name: FTFA: "We don't believe in assaulting people," Schrand said. "We're very against assaulting people."

I don't get this. Why? You're just rearranging some molecules, man, what's the big deal? Not like anything you do will matter in a hundred years. Even if it still matters in a thousand years, eventually, the universe will run down and then nothing that happened prior to that will matter one wet fig. Besides which, some people really need to be assaulted. What about that? Very confusing.


0/10.

That's high grade unfiltered derp.
 
2011-04-14 03:41:46 AM

dbaggins: really? THAT is just something you can't get ? that atheists are moral ?

You haven't really tried to figure this out have you ?


Where do atheist morals come from? I am assuming you mean this definition of "moral", please link the correct definition if I'm wrong:
Adjective

* S: (adj) moral (concerned with principles of right and wrong or conforming to standards of behavior and character based on those principles) "moral sense"; "a moral scrutiny"; "a moral lesson"; "a moral quandary"; "moral convictions"; "a moral life"

If you are using this definition, how could atheists possibly be moral*? There is no right and wrong, therefore why would you concern yourself with the principles of right and wrong? It doesn't make any sense. I have actually spent a great deal of time trying to figure this out, but no one's been able to explain it to me in a logical manner. I hope that you are the one who can do it.

/*Please note that because there is no right and wrong, NO ONE can be moral, but since you specified that atheists can be, limiting your explanation to how atheists specifically can be moral will suffice, since that would provide a method by which non-atheists could also be moral.
 
2011-04-14 03:42:55 AM

Fuller: And are you seriously advancing the argument that alchemy can't be dismissed as kooky? I thought it was a pretty safe example..


Alchemy actually gets an unfairly bad rap. It deserves to be thought of as proto-chemistry. (The terms were frequently used interchangeably; Boyle considered himself an alchemist, and other early alchemists knew quite a bit of practical chemistry.) There's really nothing at all weird about Newton having been interested in alchemy.
 
2011-04-14 03:43:07 AM

InfidelSavant: untaken_name: FTFA: "We don't believe in assaulting people," Schrand said. "We're very against assaulting people."

I don't get this. Why? You're just rearranging some molecules, man, what's the big deal? Not like anything you do will matter in a hundred years. Even if it still matters in a thousand years, eventually, the universe will run down and then nothing that happened prior to that will matter one wet fig. Besides which, some people really need to be assaulted. What about that? Very confusing.

0/10.

That's high grade unfiltered derp.


In other words, you can't answer the question. Noted. (Hint: people attack when they can't counter with facts. It's transparent.)
 
2011-04-14 03:45:11 AM
 
2011-04-14 03:46:40 AM

doglover: Why waste time with declaring how much you don't believe in something with a bunch of people who feel the same way?


I suspect there are several reasons. Perhaps some of them just wish to accomplish something in particular related to atheism, like this particular group -- trying to dispel myths so that people don't vilify them. Which does happen. Or perhaps they want to make a place for people who come from a religious background but who have doubts or who want to leave it -- such peoples friends and family are often bound up in religion, and they may have trouble finding people on the other side of the fence to sit down and talk with.

There are plenty of reasons I can think of.


Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: If you spend your time in an atheist group talking about how much you love being an atheist and setting up tables to convert other people to atheism then for that person, atheism is a religion.


Really? That's your definition of a religion?
Well damn, I guess the frats at school should qualify, then. Or any given sports team. Or the Lady Gaga Fanclub.

We (or at least I) don't get offended when you say atheism is a religion. But the thing is, you can only do it by hacking the term down to such a broad generality that it is useless, because it describes so many things that aren't religions.

So it's stupid. But not offensive.
 
2011-04-14 03:48:07 AM

untaken_name: Where do atheist morals come from? I am assuming you mean this definition of "moral", please link the correct definition if I'm wrong:


Same place religious people do, society around them, culture, basic humanity. Oh wait, you thought it came from those ancient books and belief in deities?

LOL. Have you noticed how religion changes over time? How the emphasised parts of a given religious work are different depending on the prevailing culture?

That's right, religious folk impose their moral code onto their religion, not the other way around.


untaken_name: There is no right and wrong


FAIL.
 
2011-04-14 03:50:28 AM

Skyrmion: Fuller: And are you seriously advancing the argument that alchemy can't be dismissed as kooky? I thought it was a pretty safe example..

Alchemy actually gets an unfairly bad rap. It deserves to be thought of as proto-chemistry. (The terms were frequently used interchangeably; Boyle considered himself an alchemist, and other early alchemists knew quite a bit of practical chemistry.) There's really nothing at all weird about Newton having been interested in alchemy.


That's like saying astrology unfairly gets a bad rap. In their time, understandable ignorance. Today, we know damn well it's bunkum.

untaken_name: InfidelSavant: untaken_name: FTFA: "We don't believe in assaulting people," Schrand said. "We're very against assaulting people."

I don't get this. Why? You're just rearranging some molecules, man, what's the big deal? Not like anything you do will matter in a hundred years. Even if it still matters in a thousand years, eventually, the universe will run down and then nothing that happened prior to that will matter one wet fig. Besides which, some people really need to be assaulted. What about that? Very confusing.

0/10.

That's high grade unfiltered derp.

In other words, you can't answer the question. Noted. (Hint: people attack when they can't counter with facts. It's transparent.)


Sure I can. I don't attack people because I don't like being attacked. People are independent autonomous agents who react unfavourably to being attacked. Plus there are laws against attacking people. That's why the words you say are stupid, and by extension, you are stupid.
 
2011-04-14 03:51:09 AM

lisarenee3505: Theists profess to "believe" in things they cannot verify.


As do atheists.
 
2011-04-14 03:52:02 AM

untaken_name:
Where do atheist morals come from?
...

/*Please note that because there is no right and wrong, NO ONE can be moral, but since you specified that atheists can be, limiting your explanation to how atheists specifically can be moral will suffice, since that would provide a method by which non-atheists could also be moral.


Society. The societal norms will create what is right or wrong. There are cultures that eat people, that believe it is moral to eat people. There are cultures that believe it is not moral to eat people. An atheist would (should) say that both are correct in the respective cultures.
 
2011-04-14 03:52:37 AM

Skyrmion: Fuller: And are you seriously advancing the argument that alchemy can't be dismissed as kooky? I thought it was a pretty safe example..

Alchemy actually gets an unfairly bad rap. It deserves to be thought of as proto-chemistry. (The terms were frequently used interchangeably; Boyle considered himself an alchemist, and other early alchemists knew quite a bit of practical chemistry.) There's really nothing at all weird about Newton having been interested in alchemy.


Nor, given what we know about element decay, is the fundamental principle that one form of matter can be transmuted into another form of matter incorrect.
 
2011-04-14 03:52:49 AM

doglover: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: If you spend your time in an atheist group talking about how much you love being an atheist and setting up tables to convert other people to atheism then for that person, atheism is a religion.

And a boring one at that! Seriously, would you rather party with the dudes who say "Our god is the god of wine. For him, AN ORGY!" or the guys who say "There's nothing but what physics already knows to life. Nothing. Yep. Still nothing."


Dionysianism is the sexiest religion.

/why isn't it more popular?
//let's bring it back
 
2011-04-14 03:52:50 AM

Gothnet: untaken_name: Where do atheist morals come from? I am assuming you mean this definition of "moral", please link the correct definition if I'm wrong:

Same place religious people do, society around them, culture, basic humanity. Oh wait, you thought it came from those ancient books and belief in deities?

LOL. Have you noticed how religion changes over time? How the emphasised parts of a given religious work are different depending on the prevailing culture?

That's right, religious folk impose their moral code onto their religion, not the other way around.


untaken_name: There is no right and wrong

FAIL.


Um, care to define "basic humanity" and show me where it exists?
Also, if right and wrong exist, define them for me, and show me from where they derive. I don't mean using bs feel-good terms like "basic humanity". I mean show me how the existence of good and evil may be experimentally proved. Thanks.
 
2011-04-14 03:54:26 AM
FTFA: Alexander M. Huppert, a freshman university studies major

Er, can anyone tell me what he's actually studying? I'm not understanding of American university subject matters.

There's a subject called 'University Studies'? Wha?


/psycho nutjob, I'd stab you in the penis
 
2011-04-14 03:54:55 AM

untaken_name: If you are using this definition, how could atheists possibly be moral*?


What about that definition prevents atheists from being moral? It doesn't stipulate that moral principles have to come from a deity or anything.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I really don't understand your argument. Plenty of philosophies that put forward moral principles exist independent of religion - Objectivism and Utilitarianism, to name two off the top of my head. And for that matter, there are plenty of religions that don't concern themselves with morality - the ancient Greeks' principles of morality and religious beliefs existed almost entirely apart from one another.

What you're saying doesn't seem to make any sense.
 
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