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(Some Guy)   Three-hundred proofs for the existence of God   ( divider line
    More: Followup  
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26455 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Jul 2003 at 7:28 PM (14 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

701 Comments     (+0 »)

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2003-08-01 12:59:57 AM  
Henchmen: you got me. Like I said, undergrad here. If you think it makes YOUR head hurt, think of poor Mr. Hawking! After he started thinking great skills he couldn't walk any more! ;)

Director: I think Hawking has "Berman sucks" theory that explains that... I hate to use it as a crutch, but I'm only an undergrad!
2003-08-01 01:01:12 AM  
I take it back,,

That star trek movie with the whales was cool... But other than that they sucked with time travel and holodecks, etc. I could never figure out, how come I knew every time they were in the holodeck, it would go bad, and they could never figure it out and disable the stupid things. Oh, the wasted evenings watching star trek, if I could only have them back....
2003-08-01 01:01:13 AM  
Farking Corksucker
why is it when you are alone on a mountaintop the question that has been asked by every man from the beginning of time pops into your head, "Why am I here?"

It's only when you get around a lot of other people that say,"who cares?" that you tend to drop it. Or someone says "everyone thinks that."

Is there anyone here who has not thought that?

Well, when I was little, I was taught to believe in God, but I didn't know why, so I reasoned that humans were a form entertainment.

That's also why I gave signficance to short time spans between doing something naughty and injuring myself (eg. stubbing toe) -- "punishment". I thought it was actually a pretty decent system for God to "remind" me to "behave".

Then I grew older, and realized I was just a bit klutzy.

Nowadays, I mostly hit walls going around a corner, but that's cuz I'm always rushing about when working on my car or stuff (go to basement, grab tool, go upstairs, remember something else I should have grabbed while there, head back to basement, cut corner at doorway, bump shoulder, curse, repeat). =)
2003-08-01 01:02:58 AM  
"Treat others like you want to be treated." If somebody wants to be raped, stolen from, and murdered, I'd think they have deep psychological issues... more than reading a book could cure.

Like I said, that phrase is a pretty good judge for a moral code, and it has nothing to do with religion.
2003-08-01 01:03:00 AM  
...a form _of_ entertainment ...for God.

/shut up :)
2003-08-01 01:05:26 AM  
Director_Mr: I believe in some things. I am not quite an atheist, but I do believe in some things. I believe that the general idea of the Categorical Imperative is important because it makes life easier for every human on the planet. Why is it important to make life easier for humans? It's not, in the whole scheme of things. But since we are the only sentient creatures on the planet, why not treat our moral system as if it were objective, when in fact it very well could be wrong? Man may not be the measure of all things, but for most purposes, it is best to treat him as such.

To answer your question, I can tell you that the morals of murder, rape, and stealing are bad because they are held to be bad by the vast majority of humans, and also because they do not hold up to the test of "Do unto others as you would have everyone do unto everyone" (unless you are self-destructive or insane, in which case I really can't argue). I know a group mentality can be dangerous in some situations, but in the case of human morality in general, it's probably something that should have attention paid to it.
2003-08-01 01:05:27 AM  
[image from too old to be available]

All of you.

Read it.

2003-08-01 01:06:11 AM  
I do not believe in human morality, rapid eye movement.

THe reason I do not, is there is no proof of it. I do believe in God's morality, because there is a yearning for morality within me, myself. Now my point is, that yearning for morality within me, I can point to an objective source where it came from. But there is no objective source for your morality as atheist. No one will be able to agree what that morality is. In the end, no standard will be able to be had. What if someone feels murder is good and rape is ok. There is no way to show him that is not true in atheism. That in and of itself does not disprove atheism. Just don't tell me you are a moral atheist. IT is intellectually dishonest.
2003-08-01 01:08:27 AM  
Director_Mr: What is your reason to follow God's morality?
2003-08-01 01:08:56 AM  
morals is a cultural thing, you've been brought up to what is moral in your society(which includes any influence), doesnt matter if your religious or not.

my own "morals" tells me to not bother, kill, hurt anyone unnecessary and to do my best to help people, of course, i sin against my morals too, but I am that judge, not some book written 2000 years ago and hopelessly out of date.

everyone has a set of morals, some adopt others, some create their own, without morals you arent human(even if your morals tell you to rape and kill at random).
2003-08-01 01:09:36 AM  
The movie was cool, yeah. And I also liked the episode where they saw Data's head. The Mark Twain character was hilarious...

But for the ability to create any setting and anybody from any point in time doing anything you asked... uh, I think I'd take a few foulups in a holodeck to keep that ability!
2003-08-01 01:10:18 AM  

I answered before I read your last post. You have come up to what my problem with atheism morals are. They are only based on what their perception of what most people would accept as OK is. So if you get caught in NAZI Germany, or Stalinist Russia, or Inquisition Spain, you are going to be believing in what most people around you believe. If you look, people with strong moral convictions have changed the world more than anything else. I don't see that coming from atheism in a positive way ever. Just my own perception.

2003-08-01 01:11:26 AM  
Hey I'm gonna go play video games. Catch you all later. Director_Mr, rapid_eye... good job men. Keep up the fight. I'll read later, and I hope neither of you disappoint!
2003-08-01 01:11:37 AM  

Uh huh, just overlook the fact that religion is the reason behind most wars.
2003-08-01 01:12:16 AM  
Director_Mr wrote:

"Guys, please understand, I'm only arguing a position, like you would do in a philosophy class, its not necessarily what I believe. If I just agreed with everyone I couldn't have this much fun."

Ok, then how about as an exercise in debate (after disposing of miketbj2 of course (time has to have a beginning because if there were infinity previous moments a certain moment, like this moment, would never occur - according to Hawking the moment of the Big Bang is the beginning of time), destroying my least favorite posts with a bit of thought? If you honestly think you're posting valid ideas, I'll respond to them, but if you're just posting to make horny for debate atheists to waste their time with you, I won't bother. Let me know. Are you really a theist or is that just a position to? Interesting development: Director_Mr is a militant atheist, debating as a Christian, for fun, and miketbj2, arguing as an atheist, for fun, is farking Bevets!
2003-08-01 01:12:24 AM  
Discworld rules
2003-08-01 01:13:46 AM  

But you forget, that was a military ship (or close to it). Anything that threatened a ships safety would have to be fixed or removed in real life. Which is the opposite of Science Fiction, and creating anything anywhere in any time period is a cool idea, but there needs to be limits to make things dramatic and cool in my opinion. THats why Superman sucked so bad. Here is this guy who had all that power, so finally they have to bring stupid things in to get him, because the average guy isn't going to be able to do anything against him. Sorry, gone into a personal rant now....
2003-08-01 01:14:00 AM  
Director_Mr: *is tired of typing long posts* And so what do you say to an atheist who believes in objective morality?
2003-08-01 01:15:19 AM  

goddamit, every time I read "tounge" I get another embolism...

it's tongue.

2003-08-01 01:17:23 AM  

I seriously doubt you are going to add or respond to anything intellectually at any time. I seriously doubt I myself am either (but thats another story). Yes I am no atheist. but I'm trying to make my arguments from a philosophical point of view, just for the fun of it. You seem to be disappointed people are debating a real issue. My suggestion is grow up or play video games. Do you have any real thoughts or just flamebait?
2003-08-01 01:19:47 AM  
I find myself agreeing with Director_Mr for once (about cloudnin). But yeah. It makes for an interesting debate. I wish I had prepared myself for it though, I came home from a night of drinking to FARK and killed my buzz with a flamewar.
2003-08-01 01:19:52 AM  
rapid eye movement:

My hands are tired, too.

If you say you are an atheist who believes in objective morality, I would say you are an agnostic really. You are free to disagree, but at best in my opinion you are an atheist who hasn't taken all atheist philosophy to its logical conclusion yet. do you agree rapid?
2003-08-01 01:20:24 AM  

It seems that often times those who believe in God cannot believe in themselves.

Nothing a believer does is of their own choosing, and therefore nothing they do will make a difference because it has already been decided.

Beyond that believers do not even believe in humanity. As humans cannot have morals without believing in God according to you.

Basically humanity is nothing without your great eye in the sky, how defeatist.

Because you tell me that I cannot have morals without God you really think that I am just going to accept this absurd notion?

Because you tell me that this thing exists and without any other proof that some unproven faith we are all to believe that you are more right than anything else ever presented?

How profane, take your religion, it's wars, it's persecution, it's sacrifice, it's pedophilia, it's sexism' it's racism and it's defeatist attitude and arrogance and go be happy. Those who do not share your beliefs in my experiance are much often more happy.
2003-08-01 01:21:30 AM  
It's true; I exist.

(apologies if someone beat me to that lame joke)
2003-08-01 01:22:10 AM  
LOL rapid! Doesn't it suck to kill a buzz with flamewars? BUt seriously, I've enjoyed debating you. My mind is slowing now, but the exercise has been good for it....

miketbj2 thanks for your arguments, too I enjoyed them thoroughly.

2003-08-01 01:22:18 AM  
(1) Eric Clapton is God.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

Hard to argue with this one.
2003-08-01 01:22:43 AM  
excuse the poor grammer tho, long week. maybe if I believed in god he would have untired me.
2003-08-01 01:23:15 AM  

"Uh huh, just overlook the fact that religion is the reason behind most wars."

That sounds like a verifiable fact. How can I verify it? Sources?
2003-08-01 01:24:42 AM  

start with the Bible, read about the Crusades. Islam and Christianity have been at war forever. Ever been to a library?
2003-08-01 01:25:18 AM  
Director_Mr: If you say you are an atheist who believes in objective morality, I would say you are an agnostic really. You are free to disagree, but at best in my opinion you are an atheist who hasn't taken all atheist philosophy to its logical conclusion yet. do you agree rapid?

Actually, here's a well-thought-out essay on exactly how atheism fits in with the logic of objective reality. The essay is best read in the full context of the site, of course.
2003-08-01 01:25:46 AM  

I didn't mean to make you THAT angry! My point is you can at best have personal preferences as an atheist. I am suprised how angry you are over the past injustices religion has caused. Why does that bother you?

But seriously, what great thing has the philosophy of atheism given us? Communist Russia is your jewel of morality? Or perhaps France, who by percentage has the most atheists in a democracy? If those are your examples of moral rectitude you should surrender!

Director_MR :)
2003-08-01 01:25:55 AM  
You're ALL going to hell.
2003-08-01 01:28:14 AM  

Don't mistake bluntness for anger oh enlightened and elevated one, sarcasm either.
2003-08-01 01:30:14 AM  

LOL don't worry about the grammar, or we are all dead here!


Objective reality does not equal objective morality. THere is no way I'm going to argue about objective reality, that takes years man! Are you trying to kill us?

Lovin it

2003-08-01 01:30:23 AM  
director_mr: I really am more of an agnostic than an atheist, but I haven't quite decided between objective morality and subjective morality. Objective morality gives me rational reasons for my actions, and it can make me feel better about myself by being on the moral high ground. However, subjective morality, although it is irrational to follow, seems to me to be the way things work. I don't really have any reason to believe the things I do are moral or not, and perhaps morality is not really the way to judge things. I think that maybe the decisions that Gandhi made and the decisions that Hitler made were equal before the universe, but before humans, one brought enormous sadness and one brought...well, maybe more happiness than was under the British Raj. But that's not really my point. The point is that atheists are not necessarily evil or good in the eyes of an objective morality similar to the Christian one (if we put aside the sin of not believing in God), and that these people could go either way. It sucks, but the only way that I can describe this in a way to go along with your side of the argument is in the sense of an objective morality. In a subjective morality, all actions are equal, but one is responsible for one's actions anyway, and it is unavoidable that others will get back at you for an action that hurts them.
2003-08-01 01:32:27 AM  
I am suprised how angry you are over the past injustices religion has caused. Why does that bother you?

Atrocity should not bother me because?

Communism used atheism as a tool of control, much in the same way religion does. Stalin replaced God with himself.

Communism has nothing to do with Atheism. Other than the fact that Atheism was once used by a Communist.

And that still pales in comparison to the death and sorrow religion has brought and continues to bring.

I like the new $200 million dollar Church that was just completed, all the while there isn't enough money to give to victims of the good touch feeley Priests.
2003-08-01 01:33:26 AM  
The war on god is more important than the ones on cancer, terror, or drugs. We've got to kill the idea of god once and for all. Unfortunately it seems that the only way to convince a weakling believer that there's no god or afterlife is to kill them; I'll admit that that's too over the top.

My projected timeline of human downfall sometime in the future:

-Rat brain-powered chip is installed in robotic Real Doll.

-Real Doll sales take off.

-Truly intelligent Real Dolls are produced.

-Intelligent males stop bothering with all the bullshiat that comes along with human females.

-Religious humans' reproductive rates stay the same while sane humans' rates drop off.

-Dumb humans that believe in all-powerful invisible god-men wage holy wars, blow themselves up, and continue to molest the young.

2003-08-01 01:35:00 AM  
But seriously, what great thing has the philosophy of atheism given us?

Understanding through science and all of what science has brought. You drive a car don't you? take medicine? watch TV?

Besides that, as an Atheist I have no reason to hate my neighbour simply because they are apart of a different cult.
2003-08-01 01:35:58 AM  

Sorry, didn't want to be snooty or anything. hard to get proper mix of fun, politeness and debate at this time of night. My point is if you are going to argue morality from an atheist viewpoint, what will be your reference? How can there possibly be a common morality? Where are the great moral atheists? What great atheist government is there? I can only think of North Korea, COmmunist Russia, Cuba, did I miss one?

I'm not saying there haven't been cruel, stupid religious governments. I'm only saying that as an atheist that shouldn't bother you. What morals will you claim as an atheist?

I'm asking seriously, not just to insult you.
2003-08-01 01:37:15 AM  
ok, atheism has not given us science. I am sorry. Christianity gave us science, buddy. Isaac Newton, Galileo, Pascal, all Christians.
2003-08-01 01:37:55 AM  

Yes, I've been to a library. That's a fact. Ever consulted a dictionary ?
2003-08-01 01:37:57 AM  
Or perhaps France, who by percentage has the most atheists in a democracy?

The Chzech Republic is Europe's most atheistic nation, and are doing just fine. Quite a contrast living amongst all of that Gothic imagery.

As a christian aren't you supposed to love everyone? even the French? Bad christian, no heaven for you.
2003-08-01 01:38:47 AM  
why would you need the threat of a whip or the carrot of going to heaven to be a nice person?
do you really think it impossible to be a nice person with no more selfish reasons than that it just feels right?

and what has religion given us? a few wars? tons of hate and misery? turned sex into evil? held back science?
2003-08-01 01:38:55 AM  
Director_Mr: Ha, why not just reference him to our previous debate. I have a feeling that the exact same debate is going to happen over again.

Damn you prepared posters. Next time there's a flamewar, I'll be sure to be ready. Minors shouldn't be up this late. I'll let the "adults" fling shiat at each other, it's bedtime for little REM.
2003-08-01 01:40:04 AM  

Well, how many wars have been based on religion as opposed to all other reasons collectively.

I bow to you obvious untelligence and expect that you being such a smart sandwhich will be able to find that rather quickly.
2003-08-01 01:40:10 AM  
i do believe that at the time galileo and his buddies lived, you'd be in deep shiat if you werent christian? :)
2003-08-01 01:41:05 AM  
Not believin' in Gawd?

That's a paddlin'...

now, maybe god doesn't exist, but IS existence.

how can you express the element that's everything?
2003-08-01 01:41:06 AM  
God has to exist. Think of breasts. Why do women have breasts? Rather than, say, a row of teats like a pig or an udder like a cow, why do human women have these round protuberences of flesh that are just...wonderful. It can't exactly be explained through evolution. God must exist, and thank him every day for that.
2003-08-01 01:41:12 AM  
I just read that entire list of "proofs."

2003-08-01 01:42:07 AM  

You have articulated why I believe in God. I'm not saying that is proof, but when I look at the final consequences in life based on belief in one or the other, it seems that faith brings better things into this world than the lack of it. Rapid, your post was almost breath-taking in its honesty. THat is why I was posting what I was posting!


Do you realize that you stumbled on why there have been immoral religious governments when you explained away communism. People use philosophies to control and exert influence throughout history. It doesn't prove the wrongness of the philosophy, just that people manipulate each other.

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