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(BBC)   Working an anti-aircraft gun for the first time with only one barrel firing couldn't stop one Libyan from shooting down a Gaddafi jet (w/ video)   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 189
    More: Hero, Gaddafi, fighter bomber, antiaircraft guns, Libyan  
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36266 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Mar 2011 at 6:53 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-03-05 09:01:27 PM

Mister Peejay: Rug Doctor: fusillade762: Are we sure it just wasn't hit at random by the celebratory wasting of ammunition they all seem so fond of?

Seriously. And they are aware that those bullets will eventually come back down? Going very fast?

What is the freefall speed of whatever projectile their weapons are probably firing?

If it comes down in anywhere near the same vicinity as where it landed, at apogee its velocity will have reached zero or very close to it.

Probably spin will be gone as well, so there's that additional aerodynamic drag...

Not snark. Genuinely interested. I know it's not like a gentle spring misty rain, but it's not like the bullet goes up, hangs a U-ey, then rockets back down like it'd been re-fired, either.



If you're okay with the "Mythbusters" guys' testing methodology (new window), they figured a bullet's terminal velocity to be about 100 MPH (150 ft/s). For comparison, a 7.62 mm bullet fired from an AK-47 is traveling about 2300 ft/s when it leaves the muzzle.

Aerodynamic drag is the biggest factor. Since drag force always acts in an opposite direction to the bullet's travel, it acts both to rob kinetic energy from the bullet on the way up, and also to limit its maximum velocity on the way down.
 
2011-03-05 09:02:42 PM
Looks more like turn something deadly into something cute. Got it backwards.
 
2011-03-05 09:02:59 PM
The subby linked video would allow for some skepticism, however the youtube video later in the thread removes most of the doubt that the rebels shot down the plane. Sure, the gunner had a good bit of luck, and the pilot a great deal of bad luck, but that happens at times. It is one fewer plane and crew that will be dropping bombs on the rebels tomorrow. I wish US/EU/NATO whoever would get off their butts and impose a No-Fly Zone over Libya to put a stop to the air phase of the conflict.
 
2011-03-05 09:06:45 PM
RobbieFal:
Not to be confused with the Toyota War where Chadians rolled 10 deep on Toyotas to attack the Libyans in the 1980s.

The war began with the Libyan occupation of northern Chad in 1983, when Libya's leader Muammar al-Gaddafi, refusing to recognize the legitimacy of the Chadian President Hissène Habré, militarily supported the attempt by the opposition Transitional Government of National Unity (GUNT) to overthrow Habré.

LLOOOOOLLOLLLLLLLLLLLL
 
2011-03-05 09:07:58 PM

Daedalus27: I wish US/EU/NATO whoever would get off their butts and impose a No-Fly Zone over Libya to put a stop to the air phase of the conflict.


apparently some ground recon is needed before that could occur.

In other news, we've found impolite Brits, as the opposition seized a few SAS troops trying to get in contact with the eastern leadership

NFZs are good for some things, but I don't have confidence in Gaddafi to follow rules, so ultimately his guys need to be punched in the mouth a few times to make them run away and meet their fate.
 
2011-03-05 09:08:19 PM

clintp: And take into account that if you're a dictator, what's more valuable: planes or pilots? Planes of course. Don't let the crew eject and they're *far* more likely to try to save the plane in a marginal situation.


That and add to the fact that ejecting over the place you just bombed is a very bad idea for obvious reasons. Then even if you do eject you are in the desert with minimal/no supplies, so it would be very easy to see why the pilots might try and fly the plane back.
 
2011-03-05 09:10:22 PM

mirazh1976: Uninformed DERP

So you guys want another war, huh?


operatorchan.org

Dude, they are firing at civilians protesting in Tripoli. Citizens are being shot in the streets by Pro-Kuhdaaffi (Or however the fark you spell it) forces.

Here's a bunch of videos of the violence from various sources.
(new window)
 
2011-03-05 09:10:33 PM

bikerbob: The 2nd Amendment in action! "Tyranny from without AND within" God Bless them, their warriors and their families. That could never happen here..right?....HEY!.....RIGHT?


Right, but mostly due to the NRA supported ban on new additions to the full auto part of the NFA registry
 
2011-03-05 09:10:39 PM
Sheeitt...

Don't you know that guy didn't actually hit the jet? Charlie Sheen and his magic Tiger Bloodtm thought about that jet, blinked, and downed the jet.
 
2011-03-05 09:11:09 PM
What are you people doing here? This thread was over in the third post. It's Saturday, for christ's sake.
 
2011-03-05 09:11:13 PM

fat boy: Great kid, Now don't get cocky


I'll bet they call you "Lightnin' Brain" because you're so quick and clever.
 
2011-03-05 09:11:57 PM
if the guy would of had a 4 kill streak going he could gotten a sam turret.
 
2011-03-05 09:12:40 PM

SuperNinjaToad: RocketRay: Youtube video (new window) of the jet, anti-aircraft fire, big explosion in the desert, smoking wreckage, and dead pilot (graphic). From TV5Monde.

For the pilot's sake I hope he died in the crash. I don't want to imagine how he'd died had he survived the initial crash and got dragged out of the wreckage afterwards by the mob.


It's pretty obvious he died in the crash. And they lay a blanket over the corpse, there's no abuse of any kind. But before that you can see he's pretty messed up, consistent with hitting the ground really hard.
 
2011-03-05 09:15:22 PM

vgss: >>The BBC's John Simpson reports from Ras Lanuf, where the rebels were filmed celebrating the shooting down of a fighter bomber

>>the shooting down of a fighter bomber

>>fighter bomber


Well crap, I guess that means Gaddafi is employing an Ork Waaagh.
This is bad news, for The God Emperor of Mankind.

/Good shot Libyans.
//This thread is far geekier than I would have expected.
 
2011-03-05 09:15:31 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Story is a fake - turns out the jet was just being piloted by John McCain.


No, no. Dick Cheney was hunting nearby.
 
2011-03-05 09:17:04 PM
Barfmaker I suppose I'll go ahead and call bullshiat.

Not @ all impossible, this Marine got a Navy Cross for figuring out how to use a dead Iraqi's RPG on a bunch of Saddam's Guards
u.univision.com
 
2011-03-05 09:23:47 PM

DIAF: Sheeitt...

Don't you know that guy didn't actually hit the jet? Charlie Sheen and his magic Tiger Bloodtm thought about that jet, blinked, and downed the jet.


Which is why its even better. Charlie is helping Libyans now, just because he can do that too.
 
2011-03-05 09:25:02 PM
DreamWeaver

"Gadhafi" is how the man himself spelled it, in a letter.


Actually, he now spells it "Gathafi," which is about the 53,000th variation he's come up with himself, without even getting into the gazillian number of ways he's spelled Muammuadib...
 
2011-03-05 09:28:38 PM
How can an uprising ever happen? It's going to be bubba vs a jet fighter! And he's going to have a sling shot. And they are going to be dropping nukes. No government rebels against modern military will ever work because no people in the military will ever bawk at orders to kill their own people and convert to the other side. I know. I know how the real shiat goes down. I am fark political pro. This is fake. It's going to be bubba versus a few sidewinder missiles and it's all over. Rebels put down! This is so fake. No military weaponry will get into civilian hands. Established government wins every time.

This is how things actually break apart. Tin foil hat wearers take note. The paranoia may keep you from acting. But you are pussies.
 
2011-03-05 09:29:41 PM

Rug Doctor: fusillade762: Are we sure it just wasn't hit at random by the celebratory wasting of ammunition they all seem so fond of?

Seriously. And they are aware that those bullets will eventually come back down? Going very fast?


Not normally - a bullet comes out of the business end of a gun far, far faster than a bullet would travel dropping through the air. It can still injure people, or occasionally be lethal, but it isn't particularly likely.
 
2011-03-05 09:31:14 PM

Ontos: fusillade762: Are we sure it just wasn't hit at random by the celebratory wasting of ammunition they all seem so fond of?

Arabs lllllloooooovvvvveeeee shooting in the air.

Kar98: vgss: >>The BBC's John Simpson reports from Ras Lanuf, where the rebels were filmed celebrating the shooting down of a fighter bomber

>>the shooting down of a fighter bomber

>>fighter bomber

What? A Sukhoi 22 _is_ a fighter/bomber. I doubt you can shoot one down with a thirty cal AA gun though.

Looked like a 14.5mm to me.


Yes, it looks like a ZPU-2, which has twin 14.5mm barrels. Regardless if you could pepper a Su-22 (Fitter) with enough .30 cal, you could take it down. The Fitter has a reputation for being a horrible strike aircraft due to its vulnerability to ground fire. Its cheap though, and when you're blowing up poor saps in the desert who have absolutely no anti-aircraft support at all, it serves its purpose well.

In this case, watching the video from TV5MONDE that RocketRay posted, this was definitely a Su-24 (Fencer). You probably would never hit it with a .30-cal and with a ZPU-2 or ZPU-4 (looks like they had both on site) even with all barrels working it'd be a challenge. The Su-24 is a decent all-weather strike aircraft with supersonic capability. The gunner guy got very lucky.

It looks like the pilot panicked when he came under fire and pulled away rather than into the fire, exposing his underbelly which probably led to his demise. Exposing more of your aircraft when under AAA fire is generally a bad idea.
 
2011-03-05 09:37:53 PM
Or the gunner got incredibly lucky and put one round right through the cockpit messing up the pilot's day.
 
2011-03-05 09:39:32 PM
SuperNinjaToadFor the pilot's sake I hope he died in the crash. I don't want to imagine how he'd died had he survived the initial crash and got dragged out of the wreckage afterwards by the mob.

You can see in the video where the pilot's body is found and quickly covered with a blanket by the Rebels. A surprisingly unexpected simple gesture of respect for the dead...
 
2011-03-05 09:39:56 PM

Mister Peejay: Rug Doctor: fusillade762: Are we sure it just wasn't hit at random by the celebratory wasting of ammunition they all seem so fond of?

Seriously. And they are aware that those bullets will eventually come back down? Going very fast?

What is the freefall speed of whatever projectile their weapons are probably firing?

If it comes down in anywhere near the same vicinity as where it landed, at apogee its velocity will have reached zero or very close to it.

Probably spin will be gone as well, so there's that additional aerodynamic drag...

Not snark. Genuinely interested. I know it's not like a gentle spring misty rain, but it's not like the bullet goes up, hangs a U-ey, then rockets back down like it'd been re-fired, either.


The way I understnd it, is that if it goes straight up and down, or any trajectory that's nearly so, it will hurt but not really kill unless it hits an infant's soft skull or whatever. (Morbid, sorry, but that happened two miles away from where I used to live one New Years eve.)

It's more of a problem when you start getting closer to the 45 degree angle, the bullet doesn't so much reach an apex and stop, only to fall slowly to the ground, it's more like a very long trajectory ballistic shot, maintaining the speed and momentum for much greater distance, indescrimantly landing with lethal force elsewhere. I think that's what's up. ;p
 
2011-03-05 09:41:50 PM

Mister Peejay: Not snark. Genuinely interested. I know it's not like a gentle spring misty rain, but it's not like the bullet goes up, hangs a U-ey, then rockets back down like it'd been re-fired, either.


It's probably tumbling coming down. It will still be moving fast enough to enter your skull.

Is that what you were asking?
 
2011-03-05 09:43:06 PM

RobbieFal: Daedalus27: I wish US/EU/NATO whoever would get off their butts and impose a No-Fly Zone over Libya to put a stop to the air phase of the conflict.

apparently some ground recon is needed before that could occur.

In other news, we've found impolite Brits, as the opposition seized a few SAS troops trying to get in contact with the eastern leadership

NFZs are good for some things, but I don't have confidence in Gaddafi to follow rules, so ultimately his guys need to be punched in the mouth a few times to make them run away and meet their fate.


I wouldn't expect much would be needed. Libya has been on the radar so to speak of hotspots so I am sure our satelites have marked areas of interest (SAMs, Airfields, etc.). It wouldn't take much effort to announce that nothing flies without permission and all military aircraft are subject to attack. You don't want to crater the runways due to the long term harm that will cause the country. I am sure the Libyan pilots know that death would be a likely outcome to any attempt to challenge the modern air forces of France, Italy, the UK, or US with their USSR 30 year old castoffs.

The EU/NATO can use Maltese, Italian, or French airfields to support the no fly zone with tankers in addition to US carrier and airfield assets Italy and Spain. If Gadhafi wants to challenge it via hostile actions against patroling aircraft or by flying, they will suffer. Yes, this puts pilots at some risk, but given the systems and resources Libya has, it is a rather low risk. The benefits gained by doing something useful (while not interfering in the domestic unrest) would be an important symbol if the rebels ultimately succeed.
 
2011-03-05 09:43:08 PM

trappedspirit: How can an uprising ever happen? It's going to be bubba vs a jet fighter! And he's going to have a sling shot. And they are going to be dropping nukes. No government rebels against modern military will ever work because no people in the military will ever bawk at orders to kill their own people and convert to the other side. I know. I know how the real shiat goes down. I am fark political pro. This is fake. It's going to be bubba versus a few sidewinder missiles and it's all over. Rebels put down! This is so fake. No military weaponry will get into civilian hands. Established government wins every time.

This is how things actually break apart. Tin foil hat wearers take note. The paranoia may keep you from acting. But you are pussies.


Yup, the highly disorganized and untrained military totally broke rank right away and went over to the rebels. It's amazing that gadaffwhatever is still alive, considering how many bullets, bombs and gunships that have been falling on him.

//not wearing tinfoil
//would rather not have to find out which side the mil would fall on
//everyone loses
 
2011-03-05 09:45:47 PM
The Face Of Oblivion:A WINRAR IS YOU/i>

As the producer for that game, I actually do get a kick from that reply.

I think the most interesting thing about the video is all the dudes with cell phones and modern conveniences in the middle of everything. It'd be like if Phoenix decided to revolt against Arizona and some hippies put some AA up on the top of Camelback Mountain.
 
2011-03-05 09:48:14 PM
One night...
I believe I've told ya this before
But one night
One night I was layin' down, down
I hear my mom an' papa talkin'
I hear them say Lord
Ohhooh, ohhooh hohhooh hohhooh
Ohhohhohhoohh,...
So many roads-ah
Oh I hear them say Lord, I hear them say
Oh, that little boy has reached the age uh twenty four
An' I don't believe he's a baby anymore
Anymore, anymore, anymore, anymore ohhoohhohhooh

We gotta let that boy, gotta let that boy
We gotta let that boy, gotta let that boy
We gotta let that boy, gotta let that boy
We gotta let that boy, gotta let that boy

He's gotta start shootin
He's gotta shoot it
A-shoot it sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh... shoot it
So he did
An' he kept on shootin'
An' on an' on shootin'
Ahh have mercy

Well mama she told me, papa did too
Way that ya move, it's no good for you, ya gotta
A-shoot it mama
A-shoot it mama
shoot it mama
shoot it all night long

Baby told me late last night
Way that ya shoot it's just a little too tight, ya gotta
Bomb it baby
Bomb it baby
Bomb it baby
Bomb it one time for Elvis, alright

Rock it! Rock it

Eat it
 
2011-03-05 09:55:39 PM
some of the problems with the Saadi brigade around Ras Lanuf/Sirt make more sense after reading the Daily Mail. I'm suspecting Saadi Gaddafi is not exactly George S. Patton.

It wouldn't stun me if the number of planes or pilots doing raids is fairly small. They already had 2 pilots defect. This plane down. Who knows what else. There's a difference between the planes that bring in mercs and planes that can inflict damage, obviously.

So, is this war a last hurrah for Soviet-era weaponry? or is there some other countries who bought their gear from the USSR who might wind up in a war soon?
 
2011-03-05 09:56:17 PM

equusdc: DreamWeaver

"Gadhafi" is how the man himself spelled it, in a letter.

Actually, he now spells it "Gathafi," which is about the 53,000th variation he's come up with himself, without even getting into the gazillian number of ways he's spelled Muammuadib...


Here's the Arabic according to Wikipedia: القذافي Remember read right to left!

It should be spelled "Qadhafi". The first two letters are "AL" which means "the", so we'll ignore that. The first letter in Arabic (the circle with two dots over it) is generally transliterated as "Q"; the actual sound is like a hard "K". The next letter is transliterated as "DH", like the "th" in "those". What about the "a" sound? In Arabic vowel sounds are often not actually spelled out.

The next letter (the vertical line) is "A", the circle with one dot over it is "F", and the line that dips down with two dots under it is "I" ("eee" sound).

So yeah, the spelling should be "Qadhafi", pronounced "Kathafee".

Hopefully soon he'll be dead and we won't have to worry about this crap anymore.

/wife's Moroccan, I've tried to learn some of this
//fscking damn hard language
 
2011-03-05 10:04:14 PM

socratesthekidd: trappedspirit: How can an uprising ever happen? It's going to be bubba vs a jet fighter! And he's going to have a sling shot. And they are going to be dropping nukes. No government rebels against modern military will ever work because no people in the military will ever bawk at orders to kill their own people and convert to the other side. I know. I know how the real shiat goes down. I am fark political pro. This is fake. It's going to be bubba versus a few sidewinder missiles and it's all over. Rebels put down! This is so fake. No military weaponry will get into civilian hands. Established government wins every time.

This is how things actually break apart. Tin foil hat wearers take note. The paranoia may keep you from acting. But you are pussies.

Yup, the highly disorganized and untrained military totally broke rank right away and went over to the rebels. It's amazing that gadaffwhatever is still alive, considering how many bullets, bombs and gunships that have been falling on him.

//not wearing tinfoil
//would rather not have to find out which side the mil would fall on
//everyone loses


Actually the army in Libya were the redheaded step children of the governments security plans. They weren't seen as reliable so they weren't given a lot of training/equipment because of the very risk they wouldn't back Gadhafi. Instead Gadhafi invested the resources in the security services and elite units that are now terrorizing Tripoli and elsewhere. That is why the rebels and military that defected look rather ragtag since what they are looting and confiscating is for the most part, lesser materials and equipment.

Gadhafi for good or ill understood the reliability of the military and that is what is creating problems. Since he didn't count on the militaries loyalty, there loss wasn't as devestating to him as it was in Egypt's or Tunisia's revolts. The key is going to be when his elite forces recongnize the writing on the wall and decide to flip to save their own skin. Hell they may just put Gadhafi against the wall themselves and escape before the rebels get close to create confusion that they can use to make a run for the border.
 
2011-03-05 10:05:53 PM

RocketRay: fscking damn hard language


I'm not the only one to think that the Arabic typefaces need to be larger to be read correctly, right? (And the whole replacing some letters with numbers while transliterating the language thing is something else)

And the Arabic for Libya looks like 3 men in a rowboat

ليبيا
 
2011-03-05 10:10:42 PM

DreamWeaver: Mugato: When did we start spelling Gaddaffi with a G?


As far back as I can remember - early to mid-80s - that's Auntie Beeb's preference.

When I was a kid it was with a K. Then a QU. I mean it doesn't matter. Since they don't have the same alphabet as us, it's all arbitrarily made up anyway. I just think there should be a consensus.

"Gadhafi" is how the man himself spelled it, in a letter.


Well, as you say, it doesn't matter as the script is different. But written language is an approximation of spoken language anyway; e.g. US Americans are famous for pronouncing the name of the artist Van Gogh as "van go". In Dutch, "g" is pronounced more like the "ch" in Scots' "loch" - it's quite guttural.

A more appropriate pronunciation sounds like "van hough".

See also: Tsalagi (aka Cherokee), Mumbai (aka Bombay) and Beijing (aka Peking) - once a name has been decided upon, they're quite difficult to shift.
 
2011-03-05 10:12:51 PM

RobbieFal: So, is this war a last hurrah for Soviet-era weaponry


Not by a long shot. Turkey for instance has shiat tons still. Link (new window)
 
2011-03-05 10:13:48 PM

zenobia: I've been buried in work for the past 5 days. I heard an NPR broadcast of some rebels stealing a tank -- almost made me cry -- and not much more. Is anybody going to help these guys?


Dude--It's the weekend.

static01.mediaite.com
 
2011-03-05 10:16:02 PM

equusdc: DreamWeaver

"Gadhafi" is how the man himself spelled it, in a letter.


Actually, he now spells it "Gathafi," which is about the 53,000th variation he's come up with himself, without even getting into the gazillian number of ways he's spelled Muammuadib...


His last name is MUAD'DIB?

The rebels are screwed.
 
2011-03-05 10:18:12 PM

DreamWeaver: Mugato: When did we start spelling Gaddaffi with a G? When I was a kid it was with a K. Then a QU. I mean it doesn't matter. Since they don't have the same alphabet as us, it's all arbitrarily made up anyway. I just think there should be a consensus.

"Gadhafi" is how the man himself spelled it, in a letter.


Bullshiat, we all know they can't write over there.
 
2011-03-05 10:29:06 PM

FlyingJ: Barfmaker I suppose I'll go ahead and call bullshiat.

Not @ all impossible, this Marine got a Navy Cross for figuring out how to use a dead Iraqi's RPG on a bunch of Saddam's Guards


Ooh rah
 
2011-03-05 10:30:10 PM
Just think, they're doing all this without the help of Rambo or Chuck Norris.
 
2011-03-05 10:34:06 PM
Good for him.
 
2011-03-05 10:37:47 PM
Viva la Lybian liberation!

/Mind the foreign trolls, dudes
 
2011-03-05 10:44:01 PM

Kar98: RobbieFal: So, is this war a last hurrah for Soviet-era weaponry

Not by a long shot. Turkey for instance has shiat tons still. Link (new window)


Huh?

Turkey's been a NATO country for decades. They operate almost exclusively locally built or western equipment. Your own link lists almost no Soviet systems.

Lots of folks still use old Soviet stuff, but Turkey ain't one of them.
 
2011-03-05 11:02:17 PM

ThisNameSux: stirfrybry: CliChe Guevara: ThisNameSux: Any proof other than a downed jet?

You know, after claiming to have downed a jet, 'only' having a downed jet to show for it seems like pretty good evidence, actually.

LOL this^^^

I could drive down to Detroit, stand beside a crumbled house and tell you that I knocked it down with my cock.


Please do so. I'll link video of such cockwreckage on my FB page.
 
2011-03-05 11:10:07 PM

tiiger: RocketRay: Youtube video (new window) of the jet, anti-aircraft fire, big explosion in the desert, smoking wreckage, and dead pilot (graphic). From TV5Monde.

That seems pretty cut and dried actually. Nice find.


Twitter. #Libya

Usually my opinion of Twitter is "OK poop is coming out". But for things like revolutions it's pretty awesome.
 
2011-03-05 11:13:37 PM
t0.gstatic.com
 
2011-03-05 11:27:21 PM

socratesthekidd: Yup, the highly disorganized and untrained military totally broke rank right away and went over to the rebels. It's amazing that gadaffwhatever is still alive, considering how many bullets, bombs and gunships that have been falling on him.

//not wearing tinfoil
//would rather not have to find out which side the mil would fall on
//everyone loses


Well, I'm not sure what you are saying. If you are calling Libya's military highly disorganized and untrained, I don't know where you got this information. Also, nothing "totally broke rank". There are still many military units loyal to Gaddafi. The point I was making was in reference to people talking about how unlikely any uprising in America would ever be because it would be our military vs civilians. But the reality is that our military is made up of civilians that would be hesitant to follow through with orders to bomb civilian areas where their or their buddy's families may live and there would be some overturning of military supply depots and it wouldn't be as slick as some people imagined.

So I am not certain at all what you are trying to say but for farks sake misspelling a dictator's name is only an insult to all of us. Unless it's really witty.
 
2011-03-05 11:29:50 PM

RocketRay: But for things like revolutions it's pretty awesome.


Twitter is great for people watching, and for stuff where people are accessing the net from mobile phones.

Yay technology!
 
2011-03-05 11:29:57 PM

Now That's What I Call a Taco!: What flag are they flying? I thought Libya's flag was just plain green


It's the pre-Khadaffi Flag of the old monarchy.
 
2011-03-05 11:36:06 PM

MeroteTroncoll: Norad: Mugato: I just think there should be a consensus.

There wasn't a consensus back in the mid 1980's, when Libya was front and center in the news either. There were similar "How do we spell this guy's name?" sidebar stories back then, too.

Some things never change.

War. War never changes.


Or does it? No. It is war.
Unless it is different?
 
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