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(The (Fading) American Dream)   The once thought to be dead idea of a national ID card is now alive and kicking down your door this May 11th   ( endoftheamericandream.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Real ID Act, personal identification, United States Nationality law, Coming into force, U S Capitol, u.s. congressman, Department of Homeland Security, fundamental rights  
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3228 clicks; posted to Politics » on 01 Mar 2011 at 12:23 PM (6 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



193 Comments     (+0 »)
 


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2011-03-01 12:58:10 PM  

Jackson Herring: keylock71: Eh... Already have two - My passport and my driver's license. Why would I need another?

It's actually just a set of national standards for state-issued IDs.


Ah, well, I'll just shut up about, then. Not sure what the big deal is, at any rate.

I can buy a marketing list of any particular demographic I'm looking for info on that contains more personal info than is on a driver's license. (Minus the SSN if someone is stupid enough to use it as their license number, that is.)
 
2011-03-01 12:58:20 PM  

Hillbilly Jim: LittleBlondeJug: Great. I'm sure that mine will have a big red letterbig red letters "AW" across the front of it.

ftfy


ftfy
 
2011-03-01 12:58:22 PM  

Bigdogdaddy: So an unknown news site that quotes FOX news like it's fact? Yeah, that'll convince me.

It wouldn't suprise me though. I'm sure it's coming to that. You already can't work without a birth certificate, social security card and some type of photo ID.


You know they're real because they're selling platinum coins.
 
2011-03-01 12:58:53 PM  

squidgod2000: *reads paranoid ranty blog post*

State drivers licences will be standardized so they all include the same information and meet security standards? Oh noes...

/blogger is batshiat crazy


I agree, the idea of standards is fairly benign and the main quibble there seems to be States' asking for financial assistance to comply with the standards.

The main concern is where such compliant ID must be presented...airlines, federal buildings...those sort of things. Maybe an argument can be made for airlines (I disagree that ID should be needed, but that's beside the point), but a federal building?
 
2011-03-01 12:59:17 PM  
Great! I'll get a haircut now for the photo.

/Hates that freshly cut look!
 
2011-03-01 12:59:43 PM  

LittleBlondeJug: Hillbilly Jim: LittleBlondeJug: Great. I'm sure that mine will have a big red letterbig red letters "AW" across the front of it.

ftfy

ftfy


ftfm
 
2011-03-01 01:02:13 PM  

Bigdogdaddy: GAT_00: How is it a bad thing?

The only problem is if I am stopped on the street by the cops randomly and asked to see it. Are there protections built into this system or are the police/FBI or whoever just use it willy-nilly and card me for no reason. I already have to show proof of identity as a passenger in a car that is stopped for speeding and nothign else, having done nothing and I have a huge problem with that. I can't see how this can make it any better.


Can't you argue that that's unreasonable search and seizure? (well, "search" anyways) If they have no probable cause to search, then they can't search, if I understand it correctly.

Frankly, if a card can consolidate a birth certificate, drivers liscense, maybe even pilots liscense, passport, visa, etc etc etc, that's less paperwork to worry about. The military uses smart cards, why not use the same system here? Just implement a chip that has all your paperwork in electronic form.
 
2011-03-01 01:03:04 PM  

Bigdogdaddy: GAT_00: Bigdogdaddy: The only problem is if I am stopped on the street by the cops randomly and asked to see it.

Ah yes, the government is coming to get you. Well, they can already ask you for ID, because as I said, everyone has a picture ID already. I see nothing that forces you to provide it, much as you might like to imply that you automatically can be forced to do that. And, well, if you have a problem with providing it, talk to the Republicans. They were totally cool with it in Arizona to catch the scary brown people.

But if I don't, then I am subject to a ticket for "non compliance" and then I have to pay a fine. THAT is what I have a problem with. I think it's a bad idea all the way around. And no, I'm not paranoid, that is a fact.


Don't know if this was answered up-thread already, but it's illegal & unconstitutional for cops to ask to see your ID unless you're engaging in an activity that requires a license of certification. Driving, fishing, hunting, shooting a movie, etc., yes. Out walking the dog or a bike ride? Nope. Furthermore, you don't have to have one on you or even produce it if you do. You ONLY have to give your correct name. No time to look it up, but check the anti-vagrancy laws the Supreme Court shot down in the mid-70s for a citation.
 
2011-03-01 01:04:26 PM  

heinekenftw:

Frankly, if a card can consolidate a birth certificate, drivers liscense, maybe even pilots liscense, passport, visa, etc etc etc, that's less paperwork to worry about. The military uses smart cards, why not use the same system here? Just implement a chip that has all your paperwork in electronic form.


We could call the law implementing that the "Identity Theft Simplification and Encouragement Act"
 
2011-03-01 01:04:53 PM  

LittleBlondeJug: LittleBlondeJug: Hillbilly Jim: LittleBlondeJug: Great. I'm sure that mine will have a big red letterbig red letters "AW" across the front of it.

ftfy

ftfy

ftfm


I'm a hillbilly, no way I was going to get it right the first time.
 
2011-03-01 01:06:44 PM  

LittleBlondeJug: mrshowrules: GAT_00: Bigdogdaddy: The only problem is if I am stopped on the street by the cops randomly and asked to see it.

Ah yes, the government is coming to get you. Well, they can already ask you for ID, because as I said, everyone has a picture ID already. I see nothing that forces you to provide it, much as you might like to imply that you automatically can be forced to do that. And, well, if you have a problem with providing it, talk to the Republicans. They were totally cool with it in Arizona to catch the scary brown people.

I don't think a police officer can ask you for ID unless he has a reasonable belief that you are committing a crime or a witness to a crime. You can't card people in public and it should remain that way. It is an unnecessary Government control. If you can't clearly identify the need for it, it should not exist. In this case, the slippery slope argument may actually apply. The next logical step would be to swipe your ID when entering any public place. Lose your ID, and you might temporarily limit your freedom. Imagine losing your ID a Friday night before a long weekend, might screw up your plans for the weekend. It a small infringement on your personal freedom. A small one but these things are incremental.


Okay, but if you are in a car and the car is stopped, and you are not driving, are you required to show I.D. to the police officer if asked?


No. I don't care what threats the police levy against you, you DO NOT have to show ID if you're just the passenger. He's not even supposed to ask for it but a lot of them just don't know that (or, at least, hope you don't).
 
2011-03-01 01:07:19 PM  
About damn time too I read 1984 in high school and I for one am sick of all this "freedom" and these "rights." Voter apathy proves most people feel the same way I do.
 
2011-03-01 01:08:03 PM  

GoodyearPimp: GAT_00: If you're my age and male, you have a selective service card floating around somewhere.

Don't be discriminatin' against the wimmins just because you have something they don't.


There is one loophole to the Selective Service registration. I never registered and was exempt from registering.

I went to boot camp at 17. There was some special paperwork with my enlistment that went to the Selective Service system to tell them I was exempt.
 
2011-03-01 01:11:28 PM  

neversubmit: About damn time too I read 1984 in high school and I for one am sick of all this "freedom" and these "rights." Voter apathy proves most people feel the same way I do.


Considering that even the briefest skim of the thread reveals this to be a complete non-story, I think your charge of apathy qualifies as legitimate irony.
 
2011-03-01 01:12:40 PM  

Nuclear Monk: squidgod2000: *reads paranoid ranty blog post*

State drivers licences will be standardized so they all include the same information and meet security standards? Oh noes...

/blogger is batshiat crazy

I agree, the idea of standards is fairly benign and the main quibble there seems to be States' asking for financial assistance to comply with the standards.

The main concern is where such compliant ID must be presented...airlines, federal buildings...those sort of things. Maybe an argument can be made for airlines (I disagree that ID should be needed, but that's beside the point), but a federal building?


Some states require photo id to vote, laws passed by GOP state legislatures in states with large populations that *ahem* don't own cars.
 
2011-03-01 01:12:46 PM  
"Now security goons will be able to ask us for our "papers" just like they used to do in Nazi Germany and the USSR."

License and Registration, please.
 
2011-03-01 01:13:49 PM  
trafficticketteam.files.wordpress.com

/over 100 posts before this shows up
//Fark, I am dissapoint
 
2011-03-01 01:13:55 PM  

brigid_fitch: LittleBlondeJug: mrshowrules: GAT_00: Bigdogdaddy: The only problem is if I am stopped on the street by the cops randomly and asked to see it.

Ah yes, the government is coming to get you. Well, they can already ask you for ID, because as I said, everyone has a picture ID already. I see nothing that forces you to provide it, much as you might like to imply that you automatically can be forced to do that. And, well, if you have a problem with providing it, talk to the Republicans. They were totally cool with it in Arizona to catch the scary brown people.

I don't think a police officer can ask you for ID unless he has a reasonable belief that you are committing a crime or a witness to a crime. You can't card people in public and it should remain that way. It is an unnecessary Government control. If you can't clearly identify the need for it, it should not exist. In this case, the slippery slope argument may actually apply. The next logical step would be to swipe your ID when entering any public place. Lose your ID, and you might temporarily limit your freedom. Imagine losing your ID a Friday night before a long weekend, might screw up your plans for the weekend. It a small infringement on your personal freedom. A small one but these things are incremental.

Okay, but if you are in a car and the car is stopped, and you are not driving, are you required to show I.D. to the police officer if asked?

No. I don't care what threats the police levy against you, you DO NOT have to show ID if you're just the passenger. He's not even supposed to ask for it but a lot of them just don't know that (or, at least, hope you don't).


Okay, I am just worried because there is a warrant out for my arrest.
 
2011-03-01 01:13:56 PM  

xtragrind: GAT_00: Ah yes, the government is coming to get you. Well, they can already ask you for ID, because as I said, everyone has a picture ID already. I see nothing that forces you to provide it, much as you might like to imply that you automatically can be forced to do that. And, well, if you have a problem with providing it, talk to the Republicans. They were totally cool with it in Arizona to catch the scary brown people.

Fun Fact: A federal agent can stop and ask you for your identification, for no reason, at any time. I believe it has been like that for 30+ years. But keep believing that it was just those big meanies in Arizona that came up with the idea recently... Both Democrats and Republicans have been "cool" with it since the 70's.


Got a citation for that? Because Papachristou v. Jacksonville says you're wrong.
 
2011-03-01 01:14:41 PM  
They want to play like that? Fine. Just throw it in the microwave for about 5 seconds and it will toast any chip and swiping features it once had.

Hey government: come at me, bro.
 
2011-03-01 01:17:17 PM  

LockeOak: Some states require photo id to vote, laws passed by GOP state legislatures in states with large populations that *ahem* don't own cars.


But it doesn't have to be a Driver's license. It only has to be a photo id. Local DMV charges $5 for a State Issued Photo ID that is good for 10 years.

Like other people have pointed out, so many other things in life, like getting a job, require a photo ID of some kind that it doesn't seem like much of an additional burden.
 
2011-03-01 01:17:36 PM  
This is one of my favorite issues for idiots to freak out over. Love it. Bunch of whackos.
 
2011-03-01 01:17:44 PM  
assuming there's no RFID and the protections against unreasonable search and seizure are upheld... who the fark cares if there is a Federal standard?
 
2011-03-01 01:18:04 PM  
One word- Not Sure.
 
2011-03-01 01:19:23 PM  

skullkrusher: assuming there's no RFID and the protections against unreasonable search and seizure are upheld... who the fark cares if there is a Federal standard?


Don't you get it! DON'T YOU GET IT? As soon as there is a standard for cards, everyone has to be forced to get one at gunpoint! Then you'll be asked for it at every street corner!
 
2011-03-01 01:20:23 PM  

skullkrusher: assuming there's no RFID and the protections against unreasonable search and seizure are upheld... who the fark cares if there is a Federal standard?


distractible.org
 
2011-03-01 01:20:37 PM  

skullkrusher: assuming there's no RFID and the protections against unreasonable search and seizure are upheld... who the fark cares if there is a Federal standard?


As I noted the Teabaggers who are constantly bleating "Where does the Constitution say they can do that?" should have a big problem with a Federal standard. Interestingly they seem not to.
 
2011-03-01 01:20:44 PM  
We already have a national ID card, it's your social security card.
 
2011-03-01 01:20:55 PM  
Came for the multipass, leaving satisfied.
 
2011-03-01 01:21:35 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: skullkrusher: assuming there's no RFID and the protections against unreasonable search and seizure are upheld... who the fark cares if there is a Federal standard?

As I noted the Teabaggers who are constantly bleating "Where does the Constitution say they can do that?" should have a big problem with a Federal standard. Interestingly they seem not to.


I'm gonna guess this article was written by one at least sympathetic to the teabag cause
 
2011-03-01 01:22:20 PM  
I'm the most paranoid person I know and I like the idea of a national ID card.

All you people who are scared of this probably all have Facebook accounts, where they sell every digital byte you put out there to whoever wants it, whereas the government will issue you an ID card so you can... go in a federal building? prove you did not break in to the country? are not a terrorist?

All ths talk of "show me your papers" fear mongering is just retarded.
 
2011-03-01 01:22:51 PM  

Latinwolf: We already have a national ID card, it's your social security card.


Passport is another National ID system. They even have a card version of it now
 
2011-03-01 01:22:57 PM  

ianthetexan: Came for the multipass, leaving satisfied.


and here's Mila in her gauzesuit

www.lowlightshighvolume.com
 
2011-03-01 01:23:17 PM  
So I see the proposal is simply for national standards. On the face of it: big whoopty.

Except what does it matter what they look like? Cops already have a national database they can access to determine whether a license is suspended or even extant (for the out and out forgeries).

So what, exactly is the point of fed involvement in the design?
 
2011-03-01 01:23:32 PM  

weiserfireman: Latinwolf: We already have a national ID card, it's your social security card.

Passport is another National ID system. They even have a card version of it now


and the new ones have chips in them
 
2011-03-01 01:23:40 PM  

Casey_S777: I'm the most paranoid person I know and I like the idea of a national ID card.

All you people who are scared of this probably all have Facebook accounts, where they sell every digital byte you put out there to whoever wants it, whereas the government will issue you an ID card so you can... go in a federal building? prove you did not break in to the country? are not a terrorist?

All ths talk of "show me your papers" fear mongering is just retarded.


How would a National ID prove you aren't a terrorist?
 
2011-03-01 01:23:41 PM  

LittleBlondeJug: brigid_fitch: LittleBlondeJug: mrshowrules: GAT_00: Bigdogdaddy: The only problem is if I am stopped on the street by the cops randomly and asked to see it.

Ah yes, the government is coming to get you. Well, they can already ask you for ID, because as I said, everyone has a picture ID already. I see nothing that forces you to provide it, much as you might like to imply that you automatically can be forced to do that. And, well, if you have a problem with providing it, talk to the Republicans. They were totally cool with it in Arizona to catch the scary brown people.

I don't think a police officer can ask you for ID unless he has a reasonable belief that you are committing a crime or a witness to a crime. You can't card people in public and it should remain that way. It is an unnecessary Government control. If you can't clearly identify the need for it, it should not exist. In this case, the slippery slope argument may actually apply. The next logical step would be to swipe your ID when entering any public place. Lose your ID, and you might temporarily limit your freedom. Imagine losing your ID a Friday night before a long weekend, might screw up your plans for the weekend. It a small infringement on your personal freedom. A small one but these things are incremental.

Okay, but if you are in a car and the car is stopped, and you are not driving, are you required to show I.D. to the police officer if asked?

No. I don't care what threats the police levy against you, you DO NOT have to show ID if you're just the passenger. He's not even supposed to ask for it but a lot of them just don't know that (or, at least, hope you don't).

Okay, I am just worried because there is a warrant out for my arrest.


LOL--wow, did I come across as harsh. It's just that the issue of people not really knowing their rights bugs me. I come from a family of cops and even THEY roll their eyes at the amount of ignorance out there.

And TFA bugs me, too. The REAL ID Act was just state standardization of driver's licenses, not a "National ID" card that would have to be produced like a "Show Me Card" from Fringe. And REAL ID deadline has been pushed back twice already because a lot of the states didn't have the budget or the technology to comply with it. My state, NJ, was one and I think I read that they won't be ready by the May deadline, anyway.
 
2011-03-01 01:25:26 PM  

ryarger: neversubmit: About damn time too I read 1984 in high school and I for one am sick of all this "freedom" and these "rights." Voter apathy proves most people feel the same way I do.

Considering that even the briefest skim of the thread reveals this to be a complete non-story, I think your charge of apathy qualifies as legitimate irony.


I was going for goofy seems I missed the mark. ;P
 
2011-03-01 01:25:43 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: So it's an unfunded mandate abridging the States rights to make determinations about their own IDs in favor of greater Federal Control.

I can see how this is popular with Republicans.


A real effort to limit illegal immigration rather than a pointless boondoggle of a wall covering a small fraction of the border with Mexico - of course it will be unpopular with Republicans. After all if the amount of illegal immigrants in the country went down, they couldn't use them as a boogeyman and cause of all economic ills in the country. Just like they can't afford to do anything meaningful about abortion as then half their voters would no longer have a reason to vote for them.
 
2011-03-01 01:26:00 PM  

GAT_00: I never understood how a national ID is supposed to be scary. You already have a state ID card. Even if you don't drive, you've probably got a non-drivers ID card from your state so you have a picture ID. We have two different national ID cards, in passports and Social Security cards. If you're my age, you have a selective service card floating around somewhere. You're in a national voter database.

And on the other side, a national ID cuts down on all kinds of fraud. It's pretty easy to pass a fake North Dakota ID in Alabama because nobody knows if it's fake. A national ID card stops that in it's tracks. How is it a bad thing?


Came here to ask this.

This bill mostly standardizes the appearance and data found on IDs that are ALREADY BEING ISSUED.

Can someone explain the problem? (seriously)
 
2011-03-01 01:27:31 PM  
I am nto up to speed ont he latest national ID tinfoil hattery.

is there anything in it that requires you to get one or is it still just a national database and standard for state ID's/Liscences?
 
2011-03-01 01:27:34 PM  

brigid_fitch: LittleBlondeJug: brigid_fitch: LittleBlondeJug: mrshowrules: GAT_00: Bigdogdaddy: The only problem is if I am stopped on the street by the cops randomly and asked to see it.

Ah yes, the government is coming to get you. Well, they can already ask you for ID, because as I said, everyone has a picture ID already. I see nothing that forces you to provide it, much as you might like to imply that you automatically can be forced to do that. And, well, if you have a problem with providing it, talk to the Republicans. They were totally cool with it in Arizona to catch the scary brown people.

I don't think a police officer can ask you for ID unless he has a reasonable belief that you are committing a crime or a witness to a crime. You can't card people in public and it should remain that way. It is an unnecessary Government control. If you can't clearly identify the need for it, it should not exist. In this case, the slippery slope argument may actually apply. The next logical step would be to swipe your ID when entering any public place. Lose your ID, and you might temporarily limit your freedom. Imagine losing your ID a Friday night before a long weekend, might screw up your plans for the weekend. It a small infringement on your personal freedom. A small one but these things are incremental.

Okay, but if you are in a car and the car is stopped, and you are not driving, are you required to show I.D. to the police officer if asked?

No. I don't care what threats the police levy against you, you DO NOT have to show ID if you're just the passenger. He's not even supposed to ask for it but a lot of them just don't know that (or, at least, hope you don't).

Okay, I am just worried because there is a warrant out for my arrest.

LOL--wow, did I come across as harsh. It's just that the issue of people not really knowing their rights bugs me. I come from a family of cops and even THEY roll their eyes at the amount of ignorance out there.

And TFA bugs me, too. The REAL ID Act was just state standardization of driver's licenses, not a "National ID" card that would have to be produced like a "Show Me Card" from Fringe. And REAL ID deadline has been pushed back twice already because a lot of the states didn't have the budget or the technology to comply with it. My state, NJ, was one and I think I read that they won't be ready by the May deadline, anyway.


You weren't being harsh at all. In fact, I truly appreciate the info.

/there really IS a warrant out for my arrest
 
2011-03-01 01:29:00 PM  

Stoj: Flab: (5) A digital photograph of the person.

How are they going to store a digital photo on my driver's license?

/kidding, but duh


That might actually be part of the

I remember looking over the VWP, and it had some requirements for storing bioinformatic data on the RFID chip. Most countries just ended up putting something like a digital photograph on the chip to meet that requirement, and if I recall correctly Real ID was being proposed as a way to meet the VWP requirements. Though I could be confusing this with something else.
 
2011-03-01 01:30:28 PM  

keylock71: skullkrusher: assuming there's no RFID and the protections against unreasonable search and seizure are upheld... who the fark cares if there is a Federal standard?


consumerist.com
 
2011-03-01 01:31:49 PM  

itazurakko: (2) IF the US really does want to be serious about cracking down on foreigners illegally working or living in the US, then they will have to have some form of ID proving citizenship that they will require all job prospects to show. For this of course, a passport is the obvious solution, I don't see any need for a NEW ID card.

Particularly in regards to (2), it would mean that everyone applying for jobs shows either a US passport, a US green card, or a foreign passport with a legal and current visa in it. That would be a legitimate information need, just as they ask for your SSN now (because they actually need it to process your employment).



You're going to require everyone to get a passport, when like 30% of Americans actually use it?

A passport is for international travel, a driving license is for driving. I don't understand the big deal with carrying one extra card in your wallet. Throw out your subway club card and you've got room.

/Also, since we're talking about passports, did you know they charge you $82 to add pages to your passport? Thanks, Obama!
 
2011-03-01 01:32:47 PM  

CoffeeCup: Stoj: Flab: (5) A digital photograph of the person.

How are they going to store a digital photo on my driver's license?

/kidding, but duh

That might actually be part of the

I remember looking over the VWP, and it had some requirements for storing bioinformatic data on the RFID chip. Most countries just ended up putting something like a digital photograph on the chip to meet that requirement, and if I recall correctly Real ID was being proposed as a way to meet the VWP requirements. Though I could be confusing this with something else.


We can only hope that it IS a part of the
 
2011-03-01 01:33:14 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Casey_S777: I'm the most paranoid person I know and I like the idea of a national ID card.

All you people who are scared of this probably all have Facebook accounts, where they sell every digital byte you put out there to whoever wants it, whereas the government will issue you an ID card so you can... go in a federal building? prove you did not break in to the country? are not a terrorist?

All ths talk of "show me your papers" fear mongering is just retarded.

How would a National ID prove you aren't a terrorist?


It's really complicated. There's like algorithms and shiat involved...I think.
 
2011-03-01 01:33:46 PM  
We should ditch the entire plan because it was implemented during a time when we money and there weren't billion dollar debts at the state level.

If its good enough to bust the unions, it should be good enough for this stupid crap.

/already have a passport
 
2011-03-01 01:33:48 PM  

skullkrusher: weiserfireman: Latinwolf: We already have a national ID card, it's your social security card.

Passport is another National ID system. They even have a card version of it now

and the new ones have chips in them


Yep my new one has an rfid chip
 
2011-03-01 01:34:07 PM  
* That might actually be part of the
(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements.*

Damn it.
 
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