So an unknown news site that quotes FOX news like it's fact? Yeah, that'll convince me.

It wouldn't suprise me though. I'm sure it's coming to that. You already can't work without a birth certificate, social security card and some type of photo ID.

I never understood how a national ID is supposed to be scary. You already have a state ID card. Even if you don't drive, you've probably got a non-drivers ID card from your state so you have a picture ID. We have two different national ID cards, in passports and Social Security cards. If you're my age, you have a selective service card floating around somewhere. You're in a national voter database.

And on the other side, a national ID cuts down on all kinds of fraud. It's pretty easy to pass a fake North Dakota ID in Alabama because nobody knows if it's fake. A national ID card stops that in it's tracks. How is it a bad thing?

GAT_00: How is it a bad thing?



The only problem is if I am stopped on the street by the cops randomly and asked to see it. Are there protections built into this system or are the police/FBI or whoever just use it willy-nilly and card me for no reason. I already have to show proof of identity as a passenger in a car that is stopped for speeding and nothign else, having done nothing and I have a huge problem with that. I can't see how this can make it any better.

Bigdogdaddy: The only problem is if I am stopped on the street by the cops randomly and asked to see it.

Ah yes, the government is coming to get you. Well, they can already ask you for ID, because as I said, everyone has a picture ID already. I see nothing that forces you to provide it, much as you might like to imply that you automatically can be forced to do that. And, well, if you have a problem with providing it, talk to the Republicans. They were totally cool with it in Arizona to catch the scary brown people.

GAT_00: Bigdogdaddy: The only problem is if I am stopped on the street by the cops randomly and asked to see it.

Ah yes, the government is coming to get you. Well, they can already ask you for ID, because as I said, everyone has a picture ID already. I see nothing that forces you to provide it, much as you might like to imply that you automatically can be forced to do that. And, well, if you have a problem with providing it, talk to the Republicans. They were totally cool with it in Arizona to catch the scary brown people.

But if I don't, then I am subject to a ticket for "non compliance" and then I have to pay a fine. THAT is what I have a problem with. I think it's a bad idea all the way around. And no, I'm not paranoid, that is a fact.

Great. I'm sure that mine will have a big red letter "A" across the front of it.

Wasn't one of the standards to have an RFID chip?

Bigdogdaddy: The only problem is if I am stopped on the street by the cops randomly and asked to see it.

No need to stop you citizen, unless your chip doesn't scan.

I'm being assured that the "smaller government", "fiscally responsible" Tea Baggers/Republicans/Troglodytes won't go for this at all, as it will expand the government and cost a bit more money*


*I'm sure it will make the cuts to CPB look like pocket change

At the risk of making everyone think, when you say 'we already have to carry ID to drive' etc, that's correct. You can avoid it by not driving. Carrying ID because you exist is a different proposition, and it's insipid.

meekychuppet: At the risk of making everyone think, when you say 'we already have to carry ID to drive' etc, that's correct. You can avoid it by not driving. Carrying ID because you exist is a different proposition, and it's insipid.

It's dull and tasteless?

LittleBlondeJug: meekychuppet: At the risk of making everyone think, when you say 'we already have to carry ID to drive' etc, that's correct. You can avoid it by not driving. Carrying ID because you exist is a different proposition, and it's insipid.

It's dull and tasteless?

Well, that's just America in general.

bulldg4life: My one hope for this thread is that the people who spend hours railing against illegal immigration also rail against this solution.


That doesn't make any sense. If stopping illegal immigration is a big issue for you, I would think that you would be in favor of a national ID card.

jbuist: GAT_00: I never understood how a national ID is supposed to be scary.

It'll be used in manners not currently intended.

GAT_00: We have two different national ID cards, in passports and Social Security cards.

... just like Social Security cards.

And it'll be counterfeited just like state cards are now.

That's one thing (of many, I assure you) that I've never understood. Social Security cards seem like they would be so easy to counterfeit.

mrshowrules: GAT_00: Bigdogdaddy: The only problem is if I am stopped on the street by the cops randomly and asked to see it.

Ah yes, the government is coming to get you. Well, they can already ask you for ID, because as I said, everyone has a picture ID already. I see nothing that forces you to provide it, much as you might like to imply that you automatically can be forced to do that. And, well, if you have a problem with providing it, talk to the Republicans. They were totally cool with it in Arizona to catch the scary brown people.

I don't think a police officer can ask you for ID unless he has a reasonable belief that you are committing a crime or a witness to a crime. You can't card people in public and it should remain that way. It is an unnecessary Government control. If you can't clearly identify the need for it, it should not exist. In this case, the slippery slope argument may actually apply. The next logical step would be to swipe your ID when entering any public place. Lose your ID, and you might temporarily limit your freedom. Imagine losing your ID a Friday night before a long weekend, might screw up your plans for the weekend. It a small infringement on your personal freedom. A small one but these things are incremental.

Okay, but if you are in a car and the car is stopped, and you are not driving, are you required to show I.D. to the police officer if asked?

Flab: Random blogger: or a moment, imagine a future where you are not able to drive a car, get on a plane, get on a train, vote, enter a federal building, open a bank account or get a job without a national ID card. You don't think that could ever happen in America? Well, you might want to brush up on the Real ID Act because it is going to go into effect on May 11, 2011 unless something is done to stop it.

Reality: The REAL ID Act requires state-issued driver's licenses and identification cards to meet federal standards by May 11, 2011.

Not quite the same thing.

Flab: Moreover, here's what those federal standards are:

(b) Minimum Document Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall include, at a minimum, the following information and features on each driver's license and identification card issued to a person by the State:

(1) The person's full legal name.

(2) The person's date of birth.

(3) The person's gender.

(4) The person's driver's license or identification card number.

(5) A digital photograph of the person.

(6) The person's address of principle residence.

(7) The person's signature.

(8) Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.

(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements. source


/Oooooooh! Scary stuff!

So, this is a non-story.

Thanks for the info and clearing it up for us.

This is not a national id card. It's a set of guidelines for the states to make all their ID's more similar. Am I missing something here?

birchman: This is not a national id card. It's a set of guidelines for the states to make all their ID's more similar. Am I missing something here?

Nope. See Flab's post above.

Why come you got no tatoo?

GAT_00: I never understood how a national ID is supposed to be scary. You already have a state ID card. Even if you don't drive, you've probably got a non-drivers ID card from your state so you have a picture ID. We have two different national ID cards, in passports and Social Security cards. If you're my age, you have a selective service card floating around somewhere. You're in a national voter database.

And on the other side, a national ID cuts down on all kinds of fraud. It's pretty easy to pass a fake North Dakota ID in Alabama because nobody knows if it's fake. A national ID card stops that in it's tracks. How is it a bad thing?

The question is where you'll be asked to show it, and if your movements will thereby be tracked.

That SAID, however:

(1) Already in the US people are asked to show their "driver's licenses" as ID in all sorts of situations where your ID shouldn't matter. I don't drive, and yes, I have a "state ID card" just because there's too many things I have trouble doing without it - when I was younger and still got carded at bars, they didn't really want to see my passport. But go into the bank or whatever else, yeah, they ask to see ID (for legitimate reasons) and people all use their driver's licenses and state ID. Or a passport. The bank is cool with a passport.

(2) IF the US really does want to be serious about cracking down on foreigners illegally working or living in the US, then they will have to have some form of ID proving citizenship that they will require all job prospects to show. For this of course, a passport is the obvious solution, I don't see any need for a NEW ID card.

Particularly in regards to (2), it would mean that everyone applying for jobs shows either a US passport, a US green card, or a foreign passport with a legal and current visa in it. That would be a legitimate information need, just as they ask for your SSN now (because they actually need it to process your employment).

As long as people are unwilling to go there, though, all the frothing about getting "strict" is just laughable. Which of course makes it obvious that usually all that rhetoric is assuming they only really want to grill non-white people, but that's another thread.

Of course there are issues with supposedly "one size fits all" ID too, namely if it gets hacked you can really be in for some hassles and trouble.

But I do think the "ZOMG National ID!" needs to be separated from the "authorities shouldn't need to be asking for ID for every little tiny thing" issue. I agree, they shouldn't need to hassle people for ID all the time. But if they're already asking for ID, the type of ID isn't really the issue.

itazurakko: some form of ID proving citizenship that they will require all job prospects to show. For this of course, a passport is the obvious solution, I don't see any need for a NEW ID card.

I should add too that yes, I realize a passport is a little book[1] and inconvenient to carry everywhere. Ideally that should not be a PROBLEM because you shouldn't need to be providing this ID everywhere.

[1] Though they do have cards, now. I have one.

birchman: This is not a national id card. It's a set of guidelines for the states to make all their ID's more similar. Am I missing something here?

Shh! It's the mark of the beast!

/kill the beast!

OBEY!