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(WLSAM)   Teachers union wants to improve education by having bad teachers kept on the job for over a year before being fired   (wlsam.com) divider line 229
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6290 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Feb 2011 at 11:37 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-02-26 11:20:04 AM  
This is why the teachers unions shouldn't exist.
 
2011-02-26 11:24:57 AM  
Money! MOAR MONEY!
 
2011-02-26 11:32:02 AM  
The key question is.... if you have a poorly performing teacher is it cheaper and quicker to try and train them to become better or fire them and hope their replacement is better (which is a risk since we've turned a lot of our Colleges of Educations into diploma mills).
 
2011-02-26 11:37:27 AM  
I think giving a sub-standard teacher a chance to improve is reasonable, and it doesn't seem like a school year is an unreasonable evaluation period.

/it certainly beats paying them indefinitely
 
2011-02-26 11:43:24 AM  
Hey subby, how long have you been performing your job substandardly?
 
2011-02-26 11:45:56 AM  

AcneVulgaris: Money! MOAR MONEY!


What money? Most teachers don't make jack shiat.
 
2011-02-26 11:46:05 AM  
Bankers can still kept their bonuses untaxed right?
 
2011-02-26 11:46:29 AM  
The reason the protections are there are in part so that teachers who handle socially controversial subjects (evolutionary biology, sex ed, politics) don't get fired when a parent or administrator doesn't like the teacher covering the facts of the curriculum - or simply doesn't like the teacher. Thus, there are due process hearings to establish that the teacher in fact is incompetent, is trying to indoctrinate students on topics they legally mayn't, or including the wrong sort of french-and-latin labwork with their students.

A notion that might help would be for the states to pass a law allowing local districts to pass along the bulk of the administrative and legal costs of termination hearings on to the state's central government - but only in cases where the hearings result in a termination. (Possibly have a limit on the number of such re-imbursements in a year; say, up to 3 teachers or 5% of their teaching force, whichever is larger.)

Of course, this ought to be accompanied by review of how these incompetents got hired in the first place....
 
2011-02-26 11:46:30 AM  

Arthur Jumbles: The key question is.... if you have a poorly performing teacher is it cheaper and quicker to try and train them to become better or fire them and hope their replacement is better (which is a risk since we've turned a lot of our Colleges of Educations into diploma mills).


RTFA. It's not about slightly below average teachers, it's about woefully incompetent ones.
 
2011-02-26 11:47:18 AM  
A teacher might get a bad rating because she got a particularly disruptive bunch of students or a teacher in the grade below wasn't doing their job. Or perhaps, somebody in administration has it in for her.

I don't think two years from when the problem was first noticed is unreasonable. If a teacher's end of year evaluation is sub-standard, they should get a year to show it was a special case. After all, these teachers got tenure in the first place, so it's reasonable to assume that they can teach well.
 
2011-02-26 11:49:16 AM  
I don't think this is them trying to get rid of a teacher who has had a bad year, I think this is them trying to get rid of teachers who have routinely had bad years or who have just not done their work.

Personally any public sector employees should not be allowed to unionize. Politicians make the contracts with the public sector employee's union (high wages, benefits, etc). Unions set dues on their workers who have no choice usually but to pay. Workers pay union dues. Unions make political donations to the same politicians that they just bargained with. Politicians use the money to get reelected. Contract is up... Rinse, repeat till it is no longer affordable and the government can't handle the debt it causes.

/just my $.02.
 
2011-02-26 11:51:50 AM  
On Thursday, the head of the largest national teachers union responded to the continued criticism by offering a major concession, a proposal to make it easier and faster to fire even tenured teachers who are not making the grade.
...
Many of the teacher's union protections have already been eroded and thousands of teachers are being fired as states and cities cut their budgets to close deficits.

In Providence, Rhode Island, all 1,900 teachers just received termination notices, ahead of what are expected to be massive layoffs. The city's mayor says state law will allow the dismissals outside of seniority rules.


so teachers unions are making concessions and we're still going out of our way to make this a "greedy fatcat teacher" thread?
 
2011-02-26 11:52:22 AM  
As someone who taught in the past, a year to improve isn't unreasonable. If they're ranking performance by student scores, those can change wildly just due to the small sample size. I taught the same subjects for six years, and did largely the same lessons and graded with the same rubric, but the final scores could vary considerably just due to the crop of students.
 
2011-02-26 11:52:48 AM  
Hell yeah... That should fix shiat.
 
2011-02-26 11:55:03 AM  
<
I don't think two years from when the problem was first noticed is unreasonable. If a teacher's end of year evaluation is sub-standard, they should get a year to show it was a special case.
>

Let's turn this around: 85% of the teachers' students failed the subject. Your child is in that teacher's class next year. Do you want your child to fail that class while the teacher is under "evaluation?"

You can always make excuses for poor performance, especially in the school system. It's not like the teacher suddenly realized their students were disruptive at the end of the school year when they all failed. By the first few weeks they should know if they got a bunch of dim bulbs. Big percentages of failing students shouldn't be a surprise - if it is, then it's a problem with the teacher, not the students.

<
After all, these teachers got tenure in the first place, so it's reasonable to assume that they can teach well.
>

Upon reflection, you will realize that this statement is ridiculous. "You have a job, so you must know what you're doing."
 
2011-02-26 11:55:25 AM  
ALL unions are bad, mmmkay?

Hurr durr derp
 
2011-02-26 11:56:27 AM  
VOUCHERS!
 
2011-02-26 11:58:16 AM  
i n floriduh you have teachers retireing, taking their pension and then getting rehired and start accumulating a second pension. then to make things even better, some are getting 3 pensions.
 
2011-02-26 12:00:08 PM  
But there's no such thing as a "bad teacher". All teachers are sacred cows that work with children.

Won't you think of the children? They teach our children. It's all for the children. Children.

Thats the kind of backwards logic I keep hearing from my lib friends. If you really want to actually help the children lose the unions, and replace/fire the teachers that don't perform well. Since schools & teachers currently aren't subject to market conditions, what incentive do they have??
 
2011-02-26 12:02:15 PM  
interesting, i was just pointing stuff exactly like this out a couple weeks ago and someone called me on it saying "how often does this really happen"


it happens way too much is how often...
 
2011-02-26 12:02:33 PM  

farkinawsome: i n floriduh you have teachers retireing, taking their pension and then getting rehired and start accumulating a second pension. then to make things even better, some are getting 3 pensions.


Apparently your teacher was under evaluation, too.
 
2011-02-26 12:05:17 PM  

BitwiseShift: Bankers can still kept their bonuses untaxed right?


This is the best argument teachers unions suporters can come up with to defend their position? "Well executives make millions!"
 
2011-02-26 12:08:15 PM  
The same union rules that make it difficult to arbitrarily fire someone because their boss doesn't like them also make it difficult to fire people who actually should be fired. It's a double-edged sword, like putting up with freedom of speech you disagree with.

Deal with it.
 
2011-02-26 12:09:08 PM  
Another reason why unions are shoving themselves into oblivion.
 
2011-02-26 12:09:55 PM  

farkinawsome: i n floriduh you have teachers retireing, taking their pension and then getting rehired and start accumulating a second pension. then to make things even better, some are getting 3 pensions.



Some retire and come back to double dip while others never. Frakkin'. Leave.
I'm in Ohio and both of my kids have had teachers that Mrs. D had while in elementary school.
 
2011-02-26 12:10:57 PM  

farkinawsome: i n floriduh you have teachers retireing, taking their pension and then getting rehired and start accumulating a second pension. then to make things even better, some are getting 3 pensions.


evidence please
 
2011-02-26 12:11:22 PM  

eeeleeet: AcneVulgaris: Money! MOAR MONEY!

What money? Most teachers don't make jack shiat.


Bullshiat. Just like any job you have to pay your dues. Just because you got a degree doesn't guarantee you a $50K job to start. I have a handfull of friends that are teachers and they are all doing very well. They started off at about $30K a year and worked their way up to a great wage. My ex GF mom has been teaching a little over 25 years and was making a little over $90K last I heard, and because of the union she doesn't need to worry about losing her job and will retire with nearly 100% salary and benefits.
 
2011-02-26 12:11:55 PM  
face it parents: your kid's going to be a ditchdigger
 
2011-02-26 12:14:57 PM  

titwrench: My ex GF mom has been teaching a little over 25 years and was making a little over $90K last I heard, and because of the union she doesn't need to worry about losing her job and will retire with nearly 100% salary and benefits.


where? i just glanced at the chicago public school pay scale (which is one of the more generous) and you have to hold a phd, be at the highest tenure step, and work in a 52-week position just to get to 90k.
 
2011-02-26 12:15:42 PM  

eeeleeet: AcneVulgaris: Money! MOAR MONEY!

What money? Most teachers don't make jack shiat.


So they don't wan't more?
 
2011-02-26 12:20:06 PM  
This is good and about farking time. Bad teachers are a right biatch to get out of the classroom.

Another way to possibly grade teachers on classroom performance is to have that teacher present to other teachers, parents, administrators who are NOT ASSOCIATED with the teacher or school under evaluation their lessons in a normal classroom fashion at random times throughout the year. If those teachers feel that the lesson presentation is less than sufficient, then it gets added to that teacher's file. I'd say 6 failing grades from these lessons in a 2 year period means that the teacher can go pound sand.
 
2011-02-26 12:21:55 PM  
Your opinion is noted.
 
2011-02-26 12:21:56 PM  

thomps: titwrench: My ex GF mom has been teaching a little over 25 years and was making a little over $90K last I heard, and because of the union she doesn't need to worry about losing her job and will retire with nearly 100% salary and benefits.

where? i just glanced at the chicago public school pay scale (which is one of the more generous) and you have to hold a phd, be at the highest tenure step, and work in a 52-week position just to get to 90k.


Sweetwater school district San Diego. My mom's BFF just retired from her "district administration" job after 35 years and she is collecting a pension that is over $100K. That's income and benefits. It's disgusting. She was basically a secretary.
 
2011-02-26 12:25:55 PM  
You should get 3 days max to turn it around, if you're bad at your job.
 
2011-02-26 12:26:07 PM  
The directly-solvable issue isn't that incompetent teachers are keeping their jobs, although that is certainly happening; I encountered some incredibly stupid teachers while learning in one of the better public school districts in the southeast. The directly-solvable issue is not the power of the "unions," no matter how determined you are to be terrified of them. The SC teachers' union is almost nonexistent on the political scene, and we've been consistently getting relatively little in state funding.

The issue is that the metrics to MEASURE the skill level of these teachers is poorly-designed and misapplied. It was an issue started by the previous President and perpetuated by the current one. Standardized testing will never be the answer; it leads to desperate "teaching the test" by teachers, pressured by their administrators and the frothing of parents howling to see that extra meaningless point. Fix the scale, get the terrible teachers out, and the committed, well-educated ones can go back to being happy to make blue-collar wages.

/ not a teacher.
// or a dirty librul hippie.
 
2011-02-26 12:26:29 PM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: A teacher might get a bad rating because she got a particularly disruptive bunch of students or a teacher in the grade below wasn't doing their job. Or perhaps, somebody in administration has it in for her.


That.

There's all kinds of reasons the admin may want to fire a teacher. If a teacher is really performing poorly, the admin shouldn't have a difficulty in showing it. They apparently did have such a difficulty if an arbitrator threw out the claims.
 
2011-02-26 12:28:02 PM  
titwrench: It's disgusting.

Why is it disgusting?

That was a position that was offered to her 35 years ago. She did her part of the contract. Why should the district not fulfill its part of the contract?

Do you also think it's disgusting that sports players get multi-million dollar contracts for a few years? Or that CEOs of companies get their golden parachutes?
 
2011-02-26 12:28:25 PM  

titwrench: Sweetwater school district San Diego. My mom's BFF just retired from her "district administration" job after 35 years and she is collecting a pension that is over $100K. That's income and benefits. It's disgusting. She was basically a secretary.


If your mom's BFF is working in district administration, she's not a teacher in any measurable sense. Administrators are an entirely different sack of crap.
 
2011-02-26 12:29:03 PM  
There are many teachers that have tenure and are just gliding along to retirement. Those are 'bad' teachers. Evaluation of performance is the only way to maintain a decent standard.
 
2011-02-26 12:35:16 PM  
They could help by making a teaching degree a bit more difficult to obtain.
 
2011-02-26 12:41:43 PM  

preciousmetal: They could help by making a teaching degree a bit more difficult to obtain.


While there's little the teachers' unions or state legislatures could do about this, THIS. Teaching degrees are inevitably where the dumb girls go, diluting what would otherwise be a pretty dedicated bunch.

/went to a teaching college.
//rage.
 
2011-02-26 12:42:00 PM  

SpaceyCat: titwrench: It's disgusting.

Why is it disgusting?

That was a position that was offered to her 35 years ago. She did her part of the contract. Why should the district not fulfill its part of the contract?

Do you also think it's disgusting that sports players get multi-million dollar contracts for a few years? Or that CEOs of companies get their golden parachutes?


Yes I do. Grown men playing a kids sport for a living shouldn't be making that much money and some shiatty incompatent CEO should not get a multi million dollar severence package when he is let go either. Should a savvy businessperson that performs well and makes ass loads of money for shareholders should be compensated well because they did their job well? Yes but multi millions of dollars? I don't think that is right unless every person that worked hard to meet that goal is also compensated at the same rate. If the CEO gets a 20% bonus then so should a R&D person or a factory worker etc.
 
2011-02-26 12:42:51 PM  
Teachers think they're all that. I wouldn't pay them any more than the worst MLB ballplayer. The worst.
 
2011-02-26 12:42:56 PM  

SpaceyCat: Why is it disgusting?

That was a position that was offered to her 35 years ago. She did her part of the contract. Why should the district not fulfill its part of the contract?


Because we're paying her salary at a time when budgets are being cut, deficits are running high, the private sector is losing jobs, the public sector isn't hiring. But if we ask public employees to make some cuts they go fleeing into other states and making a huge spectacle.

I don't pay for some athletes salary, the idiot with the football jersey is. And if you haven't noticed, fark biatches about CEOs plenty.
 
2011-02-26 12:43:00 PM  
I think the law is more to protect the good teachers with the misfortune of a getting a particularly under-performing class than it is to protect bad teachers. Given a year, a bad teacher may improve or the good teacher may get a better class. Either way, I don't see it as unreasonable.

You don't take a steady salesman of average or above average sales and then fire him the first week he misses the quota.
 
2011-02-26 12:44:08 PM  

SnarkyPants: titwrench: Sweetwater school district San Diego. My mom's BFF just retired from her "district administration" job after 35 years and she is collecting a pension that is over $100K. That's income and benefits. It's disgusting. She was basically a secretary.

If your mom's BFF is working in district administration, she's not a teacher in any measurable sense. Administrators are an entirely different sack of crap.


Good point. I was off topic. I just get riled up when I know my tax dollars are spent on bull shiat like this.
 
2011-02-26 12:47:22 PM  

titwrench: SnarkyPants: titwrench: Sweetwater school district San Diego. My mom's BFF just retired from her "district administration" job after 35 years and she is collecting a pension that is over $100K. That's income and benefits. It's disgusting. She was basically a secretary.

If your mom's BFF is working in district administration, she's not a teacher in any measurable sense. Administrators are an entirely different sack of crap.

Good point. I was off topic. I just get riled up when I know my tax dollars are spent on bull shiat like this.


Yep. And I guarantee you that at least one teacher was laid-off or retired and not replaced so that "crucial" darling could keep her job. Hopefully said teacher(s) sucked. You're right, even if it wasn't the point you were trying to make.
 
2011-02-26 12:48:06 PM  

titwrench: eeeleeet

I'll just leave this here...
www.teachersalaryinfo.com
 
2011-02-26 12:49:29 PM  
You get rid of tenure rules and I'll take the probationary teacher rules.

JC
 
2011-02-26 12:49:46 PM  

preciousmetal: They could help by making a teaching degree a bit more difficult to obtain.


In CT we have some of the highest paid teachers in the country. Being a teacher is a golden career path. High pay, good benefits, low work.

However, I know some people who've got their masters degree and their education cert and still can't get jobs.

Pretty shiatty when you go to school for 6 years and can't get the only job your education provided for. I feel like it's Karma for the generation that proceeded them.
 
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