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(Denver Channel)   68-year old woman attacked and nearly killed by chihuahuas while walking her chihuahua. Nah, just kidding, they were all pit bulls   (thedenverchannel.com ) divider line 128
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3862 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Feb 2011 at 12:28 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-02-24 01:25:24 PM  

Subtonic: timujin: Also, ten will get your twenty that these dogs were made this way by their owners, people who didn't even get a license for them.

How can you claim that a dog bred over many generations to dop nothing but fight and kill can be tamed by a handful of snasausages. Cue the "oh my little flopsy wouldn't harm a fly". Trust me, it's just biding its time til it comes time to tear a baby's face off.


Dachshunds were bred for nearly the same skills, only aimed at badgers and other tunnel dwelling creatures. Dachshunds rarely attack people. The difference is the attitude of the owners.
 
2011-02-24 01:25:35 PM  

farfigneugan: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: Or we could post a bunch of gun porn and discuss why some people feel a dog breed should be banned completely but not handguns,

Because the handgun doesn't have a central nervous system, and can't just decide it feels like going off the handle when the fark ever it feels like?
/moron


For the record, I am both a dog AND gun owner. You are the moron however. There are about 1500 "accidental" gun deaths caused in this country every year. How many fatal dog maulings? Yet you can't even entertain the comparison even when the issue being discussed is the potential lethality of owning something.

/seriously, you are a moron
 
2011-02-24 01:26:35 PM  
for the record, I'm aware that Chow's and Dalmatians are just as bad. More likely to bite you, but less likely to kill you.
 
2011-02-24 01:27:10 PM  

BradleyUffner: Subtonic: timujin: Also, ten will get your twenty that these dogs were made this way by their owners, people who didn't even get a license for them.

How can you claim that a dog bred over many generations to dop nothing but fight and kill can be tamed by a handful of snasausages. Cue the "oh my little flopsy wouldn't harm a fly". Trust me, it's just biding its time til it comes time to tear a baby's face off.

Dachshunds were bred for nearly the same skills, only aimed at badgers and other tunnel dwelling creatures. Dachshunds rarely attack people. The difference is the attitude of the owners.


Or Westies... Carnes... or pretty much any EU terrier. People seem to gloss over that.


/my mom's old westie bit me more than any other dog i've ever been around
//I still have some good scars from that little bastard
///quite skilled at catching rabbits, though.
 
2011-02-24 01:29:34 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: farfigneugan: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: Or we could post a bunch of gun porn and discuss why some people feel a dog breed should be banned completely but not handguns,

Because the handgun doesn't have a central nervous system, and can't just decide it feels like going off the handle when the fark ever it feels like?
/moron

For the record, I am both a dog AND gun owner. You are the moron however. There are about 1500 "accidental" gun deaths caused in this country every year. How many fatal dog maulings? Yet you can't even entertain the comparison even when the issue being discussed is the potential lethality of owning something.

/seriously, you are a moron


And how many fatal car accidents? you farking moron. Trying to compare a living, breathing animal with it's own set of teeth to a farking inanimate object is laughable.
 
2011-02-24 01:35:32 PM  
BlackCat23: ...the Private Pyle of Pits.
Turns out she was the sweetest dog i ever met. I have a TON of friends with pits, so my experiences have always been good, either way.


Sounds a lot like our pit. Loves our cat and will run away from a fight.
 
2011-02-24 01:40:08 PM  
someone in my bldg has a chow mixed with a lab and it is the creepiest looking thing in the world.

not every breed should be mixed. imagine a golden lab (as naturally beautiful as it is) with the mane of a chow.

it makes me sad to know that there was a whole litter of them. yeesh.
 
2011-02-24 01:40:15 PM  

farfigneugan: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: farfigneugan: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: Or we could post a bunch of gun porn and discuss why some people feel a dog breed should be banned completely but not handguns,

Because the handgun doesn't have a central nervous system, and can't just decide it feels like going off the handle when the fark ever it feels like?
/moron

For the record, I am both a dog AND gun owner. You are the moron however. There are about 1500 "accidental" gun deaths caused in this country every year. How many fatal dog maulings? Yet you can't even entertain the comparison even when the issue being discussed is the potential lethality of owning something.

/seriously, you are a moron

And how many fatal car accidents? you farking moron. Trying to compare a living, breathing animal with it's own set of teeth to a farking inanimate object is laughable.


The inanimate object requires a living breathing animal in order for it to kill someone, like some idiot mouth-breathing gun owner. Trust me, it makes sense if you aren't completely retarded.

I will say it again. There are ~ 1500 'accidental' gun deaths in this country annually, and remember, I'm just talking about 'accidental' deaths as well for a better comparison. These gun owners didn't mean for their gun to kill someone just as the shiatty dog owners didn't mean for their dogs to kill anyone. Yet, there were only 23 fatal dog maulings in the U.S. in 2008.

You support unnecessary legislation to prevent the 23 deaths but not the 1500? And I am the moron?
 
2011-02-24 01:41:07 PM  
My 14-pound Peke absolutely terrifies my neighbor's 50-pound pit bull.

Bad owners, not bad dogs.
 
2011-02-24 01:42:45 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: The inanimate object requires a living breathing animal in order for it to kill someone, like some idiot mouth-breathing gun owner. Trust me, it makes sense if you aren't completely retarded.


Okay, mr. strawman, address my pointing out that what you're describing is about the same as fatal car accidents.
 
2011-02-24 01:44:00 PM  
Pitbulls are violence prone because they are genetically predisposed to attracting douchebag owners.

/got attacked by a dog when I was 4.
/had to break a doberman's back with a baseball bat when I was 7.
/not a cool story, bro
 
2011-02-24 01:46:56 PM  
So what I'm gathering from the dog people on here is that Pit Bulls are typically owned by farking idiots. Got it.
 
2011-02-24 01:51:09 PM  

BlackCat23: BradleyUffner: Subtonic: timujin: Also, ten will get your twenty that these dogs were made this way by their owners, people who didn't even get a license for them.

How can you claim that a dog bred over many generations to dop nothing but fight and kill can be tamed by a handful of snasausages. Cue the "oh my little flopsy wouldn't harm a fly". Trust me, it's just biding its time til it comes time to tear a baby's face off.

Dachshunds were bred for nearly the same skills, only aimed at badgers and other tunnel dwelling creatures. Dachshunds rarely attack people. The difference is the attitude of the owners.

Or Westies... Carnes... or pretty much any EU terrier. People seem to gloss over that.


/my mom's old westie bit me more than any other dog i've ever been around
//I still have some good scars from that little bastard
///quite skilled at catching rabbits, though.


Bred for fighting, killing or generally doing bad things:
2.bp.blogspot.com

www.thebreedsofdogs.com

www.petplanet.co.uk
 
2011-02-24 01:52:03 PM  

BlackCat23: BradleyUffner: Subtonic: timujin: Also, ten will get your twenty that these dogs were made this way by their owners, people who didn't even get a license for them.

How can you claim that a dog bred over many generations to dop nothing but fight and kill can be tamed by a handful of snasausages. Cue the "oh my little flopsy wouldn't harm a fly". Trust me, it's just biding its time til it comes time to tear a baby's face off.

Dachshunds were bred for nearly the same skills, only aimed at badgers and other tunnel dwelling creatures. Dachshunds rarely attack people. The difference is the attitude of the owners.

Or Westies... Carnes... or pretty much any EU terrier. People seem to gloss over that.


/my mom's old westie bit me more than any other dog i've ever been around
//I still have some good scars from that little bastard
///quite skilled at catching rabbits, though.


My childhood dog was a Westie, Laddie. He was sweet and a better mouser than the cats but he HATED strangers and the mailman.
 
2011-02-24 01:52:49 PM  

BradleyUffner: Subtonic: timujin: Also, ten will get your twenty that these dogs were made this way by their owners, people who didn't even get a license for them.

How can you claim that a dog bred over many generations to dop nothing but fight and kill can be tamed by a handful of snasausages. Cue the "oh my little flopsy wouldn't harm a fly". Trust me, it's just biding its time til it comes time to tear a baby's face off.

Dachshunds were bred for nearly the same skills, only aimed at badgers and other tunnel dwelling creatures. Dachshunds rarely attack people. The difference is the attitude of the owners.


Dachshunds can be angry little bastards. However, most are small and their owners were idiots not taking training seriously.

My issue with the term "pit bull" in the news is a lot of times they aren't pit bulls, or rather, no one defined the breed really.
 
2011-02-24 01:55:07 PM  

ashinmytomatoes: BlackCat23: BradleyUffner: Subtonic: timujin: Also, ten will get your twenty that these dogs were made this way by their owners, people who didn't even get a license for them.

How can you claim that a dog bred over many generations to dop nothing but fight and kill can be tamed by a handful of snasausages. Cue the "oh my little flopsy wouldn't harm a fly". Trust me, it's just biding its time til it comes time to tear a baby's face off.

Dachshunds were bred for nearly the same skills, only aimed at badgers and other tunnel dwelling creatures. Dachshunds rarely attack people. The difference is the attitude of the owners.

Or Westies... Carnes... or pretty much any EU terrier. People seem to gloss over that.


/my mom's old westie bit me more than any other dog i've ever been around
//I still have some good scars from that little bastard
///quite skilled at catching rabbits, though.

My childhood dog was a Westie, Laddie. He was sweet and a better mouser than the cats but he HATED strangers and the mailman.


We used to joke that ours was shipped UPS, since the only person he truly hated was the UPS guy. Didn't matter if it was the normal dude, or a sub, brown getup? You're gettin' chased outta the yard.

/he really was a sweet dog, but being what they are, they're quick to nip, and even into old age he was rather hyper and playful, so shiat happened. I never held it against him, though.
 
2011-02-24 02:04:13 PM  

animal900: So what I'm gathering from the dog people on here is that Pit Bulls are typically owned by farking idiots. Got it.


Yep.

Add to that, most people don't know what the fark a pit bull looks like. I've seen people freak the fark out over a bulldog/lab cross because they thought it was a "pit bull", and I once suprised an owner by correctly calling her dog an American Bulldog. My next door neighbor has a rottie/boxer mix. To the average person these are all "pit bulls" despite having nothing to do with the breed(s). If any of them had bitten someone, guess what it would be reported in the newspaper as?

/knows a border collie that jumped through a window to attack a postman
//was reported in the newspaper as a 'pit bull' attack
 
2011-02-24 02:04:53 PM  
The whole "it's the owner, not the dog" thing is mostly true but not entirely in the way that it's used. Some dogs, such as pit bulls or akitas are more prone to being violent than some other dogs. How you raise them has a huge effect on this, but properly raising and socializing these kinds of dogs is a lot more difficult and requires more than say, a springer spaniel.

Pit bulls can be very sweet, but it's generally more work to get them there. The person raising it is the relevant issue, but some people who get pit bulls really don't know what they're getting into. It's not the dog's fault, but it's still a huge problem for everyone around.

Same is true about parrots, oddly enough.
 
2011-02-24 02:04:55 PM  

Free Range Fetus Farmer: BradleyUffner: Subtonic: timujin: Also, ten will get your twenty that these dogs were made this way by their owners, people who didn't even get a license for them.

How can you claim that a dog bred over many generations to dop nothing but fight and kill can be tamed by a handful of snasausages. Cue the "oh my little flopsy wouldn't harm a fly". Trust me, it's just biding its time til it comes time to tear a baby's face off.

Dachshunds were bred for nearly the same skills, only aimed at badgers and other tunnel dwelling creatures. Dachshunds rarely attack people. The difference is the attitude of the owners.

Dachshunds can be angry little bastards. However, most are small and their owners were idiots not taking training seriously.

My issue with the term "pit bull" in the news is a lot of times they aren't pit bulls, or rather, no one defined the breed really.


The American Pit Bull Terrier is a breed. The problem is that people use "pit bull" as a catch-all for a lot of different breeds and all kinds of mutts that vaguely resemble an APBT.

Play "Spot the Pit Bull" a couple times.


Also, regarding dogs "bred over many generations to dop nothing but fight and kill" -- they were bred to fight and kill other dogs. In dog-fighting pits. Hence the name.
 
2011-02-24 02:10:27 PM  
Pet dog ownership should be heavily restricted. I don't know the stats, but as far as I can see, the majority of people should not have dogs as pets. It is the stupidest most antiquated practice. They are domesticated wolves for fark sake. Most people do not know how to train them or control them (not that I'm an expert at all). Every week (actually every day I'd wager), someone in N.A. is killed or seriously injured because someone wanted their little pet-snuggle-bum/status symbol. And usually the person killed or injured is an innocent bystander minding their own business.

And if it's not a human being effected by rampant irresponsibility, it's the dogs themselves. Again, every week just in my neck of the woods, a story of extreme animal cruelity comes out. Then there's the stuff you don't hear about in the newspaper, but see around you. Dogs left to suffer in passive neglect, tied up in their own shiat ladden 3 foot patch in the backyard.

Then there's the little annoyances. Poop everywhere. Dogs off leash on streets. I can stand on my front porch every night at around 10pm and listen to about 3 to 4 dogs barking incessantly within 4 blocks of me at any one time. Thank god I ended up not next to one of those dogs, for the time being anyway.

I love animals beleive me, I'm a vegetarian. But, dog ownership should follow the same controls of livestock or exotic pet ownership.

But, guns don't kill people, people kill people, right?
Dogs don't kill people, people kill people because they're not the dog whisperer you are, right?
Dynamite doesn't kill people, irresponsible dynamite owners kill...wait...scratch that. Never mind there actually are things we don't let untrained people have.
 
2011-02-24 02:10:33 PM  
Glock.jpg
 
2011-02-24 02:28:35 PM  
Big dogs? Not APBTs then.

List of breeds bigger than APBTs

•Airedale Terrier
•Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog
•Alaskan Malamute
•American Bulldog
•American Foxhound
•Ardennes Cattle Dog
•Appenzeller Sennenhund
•Ariege Hound
•Australian Dingo
•Auvergne Pointer
•Belgian Groenendael
•Belgian Laekenois
•Belgian Malinois
•Belgian Tervueren
•Bergamasco
•Bernese Mountain Dog
•Billy
•Blue Picardy Spaniel
•Bourbonnais Pointer
•Boxer
•Briard
•Bullmastiff
•Black and Tan Coonhound
•Câo Fila de Sâo Miguel
•Central Asian Shepherd
•Collie
•Chesapeake Bay Retriever
•Drentsch Partridge Dog
•Dutch Shepherd Dog
•English Foxhound
•English Setter
•Eurasier
•Flat Coated Retriever
•German Shepherd
•German Shorthaired Pointer •Afghan
•Azawakh
•Beauceron
•Black Russian Terrier
•Bloodhound
•Borzoi
•Bouvier des Flandres
•Cane Corso
•Caucasian Ovtcharka
•Chinook
•Curly Coated Retriever
•Doberman Pinscher
•Dogo Argentino
•Dogo Canario
•Dogue de Bordeaux
•Gordon Setter
•Fila Brasiliero
•Great Pyrenees
•Greyhound
•Ibizan Hound
•Irish Setter
•Hovawart
•Japanese Akita
•Japanese American Akita
•King Shepherd
•Kuvasz
•Landseer Newfoundland
•Leonberger
•Maremma Sheepdog
•Mastiff
•Neapolitan Mastiff
•Newfoundland
•Pointer
•Portuguese Podengo Grande (large)
•Rhodesian Ridgeback
•Romanian Carpathian Shepherd Dog
•Saarloos Wolfdog
•Tatra Shepherd Dog
•Akbash Dog
•Anatolian Shepherd Dog
•Great Dane
•Irish Wolfhound
•Polish Greyhound
•Scottish Deerhound
•Spanish Mastiff
 
2011-02-24 02:29:36 PM  
Continued

•German Wirehaired Pointer
•Giant Schnauzer
•Golden Retriever
•Great Swiss Mountain Dog
•Hällesforshund
•Hamilton Hound
•Irish Red and White Setter
•Irish Water Spaniel
•Italian Pointer
•Komondor
•Labrador Retriever
•Labrador Retriever
•Pharaoh Hound
•Plott Hound
•Picardy Shepherd
•Redbone Coonhound
•Rottweiler
•Saluki
•Siberian Husky
•Spinone Italiano
•Standard Poodle
•Swedish Elkhound
•Thai Ridgeback
•Vizsla
•Weimaraner
•Wirehaired Pointing Griffon •Saint Bernard
•Shiloh Shepherd
•Shiloh Shepherd
•Sloughi
•South African Boerboel
•Tibetan Mastiff
•Tosa
 
2011-02-24 02:37:31 PM  

FlashHarry: by chihuahua's


Came for grammar lesson and leaving satisfied. Missed the "one & done" by that much.
 
2011-02-24 02:50:56 PM  

farfigneugan: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: The inanimate object requires a living breathing animal in order for it to kill someone, like some idiot mouth-breathing gun owner. Trust me, it makes sense if you aren't completely retarded.

Okay, mr. strawman, address my pointing out that what you're describing is about the same as fatal car accidents.


Well, I would start by pointing out that both driving and (in many states) gun ownership requires training and a license. Yet about 1500 accidental deaths occur every year. In spite of this the idea of banning either cars or guns is absurd to most people around here. Dogs on the other hand, kill 20-30 people a year but people are surprisingly alright with the idea of banning them, but nobody suggests mandated training or licensing measures.

Get it?
 
2011-02-24 02:56:15 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: Dogs on the other hand, kill 20-30 people a year but people are surprisingly alright with the idea of banning them, but nobody suggests mandated training or licensing measures.


I think the problem here is that for 90% of dog breeds it's really not an issue. If my kid wants a puppy and I get him a black lab, chances are good it'd take some doing to turn it mean. Instead of taking some effort to make it nice.
Get it?
 
2011-02-24 02:57:13 PM  
And a great big [citation needed] to anyone claiming pits are "more prone to violence" than any other breed.
 
2011-02-24 02:57:59 PM  

farfigneugan: If my kid wants a puppy and I get him a black lab pit bull, chances are good it'd take some doing to turn it mean. Instead of taking some effort to make it nice.
Get it?


Get it?
 
2011-02-24 03:01:29 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: And a great big [citation needed] to anyone claiming pits are "more prone to violence" than any other breed.


oh good.

http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2011.htm

http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2010.htm

Citations provided.
 
2011-02-24 03:05:23 PM  

socratesthekidd: The whole "it's the owner, not the dog" thing is mostly true but not entirely in the way that it's used. Some dogs, such as pit bulls or akitas are more prone to being violent than some other dogs. How you raise them has a huge effect on this, but properly raising and socializing these kinds of dogs is a lot more difficult and requires more than say, a springer spaniel.

Pit bulls can be very sweet, but it's generally more work to get them there. The person raising it is the relevant issue, but some people who get pit bulls really don't know what they're getting into. It's not the dog's fault, but it's still a huge problem for everyone around.

Same is true about parrots, oddly enough.


This.

The phrase "it's the owner, not the dog" is not the whole story. It makes it sound that all dogs are behaviorally created equal. This point really needs no evidence. Any discription of any breed, by any expert authority will describe different behaviors, between different breeds. A no brainer. So what is the behavior of pitbulls? See article.

On another unrelated note, isn't interesting that in domesticated animals, it is shown that living things can have behavior manipulated and controlled? Makes you wonder about the whole nature-vs-nurture thing.
 
2011-02-24 03:10:51 PM  

vactech: socratesthekidd: The whole "it's the owner, not the dog" thing is mostly true but not entirely in the way that it's used. Some dogs, such as pit bulls or akitas are more prone to being violent than some other dogs. How you raise them has a huge effect on this, but properly raising and socializing these kinds of dogs is a lot more difficult and requires more than say, a springer spaniel.

Pit bulls can be very sweet, but it's generally more work to get them there. The person raising it is the relevant issue, but some people who get pit bulls really don't know what they're getting into. It's not the dog's fault, but it's still a huge problem for everyone around.

Same is true about parrots, oddly enough.

This.

The phrase "it's the owner, not the dog" is not the whole story. It makes it sound that all dogs are behaviorally created equal. This point really needs no evidence. Any discription of any breed, by any expert authority will describe different behaviors, between different breeds. A no brainer. So what is the behavior of pitbulls? See article.

On another unrelated note, isn't interesting that in domesticated animals, it is shown that living things can have behavior manipulated and controlled? Makes you wonder about the whole nature-vs-nurture thing.


On the nature vs nurture bit... if you view is as a spectrum rather than a polar issue, the whole argument gets a lot muddier, but this particular situation gets less so. You can, in fact, manipulate and train a person to be just about anyone you want them to be with proper (I don't know a better word, but i'm not trying call it morally right) methods and the will to follow through. The less complicated the brain, the less difficult it is to do this, though selective breeding can make it harder. Tendencies can be genetic, but behavior is learned... or at least that's how I see it.

/neither a psychologist or a geneticist
 
2011-02-24 03:15:55 PM  

farfigneugan: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: Dogs on the other hand, kill 20-30 people a year but people are surprisingly alright with the idea of banning them, but nobody suggests mandated training or licensing measures.

I think the problem here is that for 90% of dog breeds it's really not an issue. If my kid wants a puppy and I get him a black lab, chances are good it'd take some doing to turn it mean. Instead of taking some effort to make it nice.
Get it?


No, the problem here is that you are just wrong about pits. The same treatment required to make a vicious pit would also make a vicious lab. What I will concede is that a vicious pit can do more damage. That is NOT a valid reason to ban ownership any more than it is to ban the ownership of SUVs or any gun chambered larger than 9mm.

The website that you posted looks like a spin-off of MADD. The data they are using on number of bites has time and time again been debunked because of a lack of reporting of less serious bites from smaller breeds. Nobody reports a small cut on their finger from a chihuahua, or yorkie, or pom or whatever. That said, the data is not indicative of pits being more prone to aggression than other breeds. The percentage of fatalities can easily be explained by the popularity of the breed with DBs that have no business owning ANY dog, as well as what I admitted earlier that pits are exceptionally powerful dogs.

What you are not answering is why you believe a breed ban is a good idea. We don't ban guns to keep them out of the hands of irresponsible or dangerous people, we don't ban cars to prevent ourselves from being killed by terrible drivers, so why is banning a dog breed a good idea when it kills far fewer people?
 
2011-02-24 03:20:11 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: No, the problem here is that you are just wrong about pits. The same treatment required to make a vicious pit would also make a vicious lab. What I will concede is that a vicious pit can do more damage. That is NOT a valid reason to ban ownership any more than it is to ban the ownership of SUVs or any gun chambered larger than 9mm.


You're not done reading my provided citations yet. You can read, right? Read every single story. If you still think that pitbulls are naturally friendly, (most dogs are naturally friendly, but a pitbull owner might never guess that), then you are certifiably retarded.
 
2011-02-24 03:20:23 PM  

socratesthekidd: vactech: socratesthekidd: The whole "it's the owner, not the dog" thing is mostly true but not entirely in the way that it's used. Some dogs, such as pit bulls or akitas are more prone to being violent than some other dogs. How you raise them has a huge effect on this, but properly raising and socializing these kinds of dogs is a lot more difficult and requires more than say, a springer spaniel.

Pit bulls can be very sweet, but it's generally more work to get them there. The person raising it is the relevant issue, but some people who get pit bulls really don't know what they're getting into. It's not the dog's fault, but it's still a huge problem for everyone around.

Same is true about parrots, oddly enough.

This.

The phrase "it's the owner, not the dog" is not the whole story. It makes it sound that all dogs are behaviorally created equal. This point really needs no evidence. Any discription of any breed, by any expert authority will describe different behaviors, between different breeds. A no brainer. So what is the behavior of pitbulls? See article.

On another unrelated note, isn't interesting that in domesticated animals, it is shown that living things can have behavior manipulated and controlled? Makes you wonder about the whole nature-vs-nurture thing.

On the nature vs nurture bit... if you view is as a spectrum rather than a polar issue, the whole argument gets a lot muddier, but this particular situation gets less so. You can, in fact, manipulate and train a person to be just about anyone you want them to be with proper (I don't know a better word, but i'm not trying call it morally right) methods and the will to follow through. The less complicated the brain, the less difficult it is to do this, though selective breeding can make it harder. Tendencies can be genetic, but behavior is learned... or at least that's how I see it.

/neither a psychologist or a geneticist


Granted.

and I did mean this (added in bold):
isn't interesting that in domesticated animals, it is shown that living things can have behavior manipulated and controlled through genetics?

We are a long way off in understanding the brain. It's true.
 
2011-02-24 03:22:27 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: The website that you posted looks like a spin-off of MADD. The data they are using on number of bites has time and time again been debunked because of a lack of reporting of less serious bites from smaller breeds


I didn't look up "bites", I looked up fatalities. I dont' give a shiat if some dog nips at you to get you to fark off. Pitbulls don't let go til you're not moving, and sometimes not even after that. You're farking braindead.
 
2011-02-24 03:27:22 PM  

socratesthekidd: vactech: socratesthekidd: The whole "it's the owner, not the dog" thing is mostly true but not entirely in the way that it's used. Some dogs, such as pit bulls or akitas are more prone to being violent than some other dogs. How you raise them has a huge effect on this, but properly raising and socializing these kinds of dogs is a lot more difficult and requires more than say, a springer spaniel.

Pit bulls can be very sweet, but it's generally more work to get them there. The person raising it is the relevant issue, but some people who get pit bulls really don't know what they're getting into. It's not the dog's fault, but it's still a huge problem for everyone around.

Same is true about parrots, oddly enough.

This.

The phrase "it's the owner, not the dog" is not the whole story. It makes it sound that all dogs are behaviorally created equal. This point really needs no evidence. Any discription of any breed, by any expert authority will describe different behaviors, between different breeds. A no brainer. So what is the behavior of pitbulls? See article.

On another unrelated note, isn't interesting that in domesticated animals, it is shown that living things can have behavior manipulated and controlled? Makes you wonder about the whole nature-vs-nurture thing.

On the nature vs nurture bit... if you view is as a spectrum rather than a polar issue, the whole argument gets a lot muddier, but this particular situation gets less so. You can, in fact, manipulate and train a person to be just about anyone you want them to be with proper (I don't know a better word, but i'm not trying call it morally right) methods and the will to follow through. The less complicated the brain, the less difficult it is to do this, though selective breeding can make it harder. Tendencies can be genetic, but behavior is learned... or at least that's how I see it.

/neither a psychologist or a geneticist


Now things get interesting....

The behavioral psychology aspect IS the key. In regards to your nature vs. nurture remark: check out a nova special called "Dogs Decoded" if you are honestly interested, it's on Netflix instant queue.

The most important thing to remember is that ALL domesticated dog breeds come from gray wolves. Not just any gray wolves though, but those who thousands of years ago cooperated with humans for survival. Dogs and humans being two of very few species that are truly social hunters, it was a pretty natural partnership. The interesting part about this is that it means that ALL domestic dog breeds have had THOUSANDS of years of selecting for non-aggression to humans in their genes. They have all evolved with a desire to please humans because it will ensure their own survival.

The traits that define individual breeds of domestic dog are secondary, all built upon that foundation of it being natural to be a part of a human / dog pack. Humans that act like a pack leader to that dog will satisfy the dog's low-level psychological needs and earn its trust, respect, and obedience. People who let the dog do whatever the fark it wants will have a dominant dog that thinks itself master of its own destiny because nobody ever told it what to do. This is true for poodles, pits and everything in between.
 
2011-02-24 03:29:22 PM  
vactech:

I'd never really though of this before... it's a good question and I wish I knew more about it. I'll have to find a geneticist, psychologist, and perhaps a dog trainer and get them drunk. drunken conversations are the best way to learn
 
2011-02-24 03:29:49 PM  

animal900: So what I'm gathering from the dog people on here is that Pit Bulls are typically owned by farking idiots. Got it.


And you're a farking moron. Got it?
 
2011-02-24 03:31:28 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD:
The traits that define individual breeds of domestic dog are secondary, all built upon that foundation of it being natural to be a part of a human / dog pack. Humans that act like a pack leader to that dog will satisfy the dog's low-level psychological needs and earn its trust, respect, and obedience. People who let the dog do whatever the fark it wants will have a dominant dog that thinks itself master of its own destiny because nobody ever told it what to do. This is true for poodles, pits and everything in between.


And that's why most chihuahuas are raging assholes.
 
2011-02-24 03:33:27 PM  

farfigneugan: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: The website that you posted looks like a spin-off of MADD. The data they are using on number of bites has time and time again been debunked because of a lack of reporting of less serious bites from smaller breeds

I didn't look up "bites", I looked up fatalities. I dont' give a shiat if some dog nips at you to get you to fark off. Pitbulls don't let go til you're not moving, and sometimes not even after that. You're farking braindead.


I asked for a citation that proved pits as more aggressive than other breeds. You gave me no such thing. What you did give me was a site that said pits killed 52 people in 3 years. That is small fries compared to accidental gun deaths, but you only think a ban is absurd in one case.... the case of far fewer fatalities. Tell me again who is brain dead?
 
2011-02-24 03:36:38 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD:
Now things get interesting....

The behavioral psychology aspect IS the key. In regards to your nature vs. nurture remark: check out a nova special called "Dogs Decoded" if you are honestly interested, it's on Netflix instant queue.

The most important thing to remember is that ALL domesticated dog breeds come from gray wolves. Not just any gray wolves though, but those who thousands of years ago cooperated with humans for survival. Dogs and humans being two of very few species that are truly social hunters, it was a pretty natural partnership. The interesting part about this is that it means that ALL domestic dog breeds have had THOUSANDS of years of selecting for non-aggression to humans in their genes. They have all evolved with a desire to please humans because it will ensure their own survival.

The traits that define individual breeds of domestic dog are secondary, all built upon that foundation of it being natural to be a part of a human / dog pack. Humans that act like a pack leader to that dog will satisfy the dog's low-level psychological needs and earn its trust, respect, and obedience. People who let the dog do whatever the fark it wants will have a dominant dog that thinks itself master of its own destiny because nobody ever told it what to do. This is true for poodles, pits and everything in between.


I have no netflix, but I will see if i can hunt it down somewhere because I am actually really curious right now.

in regards to the pack bit there at the end... and I admit, I'm kind of speculating based on brief wiki searches and personal experience... but some dogs do seem to be more prone to being aggressive than others. I remember an npr thing i heard a while back on akitas, and how apparently they're absolutely wonderful to whoever they view as "leader" but will royally fark up just about anyone else. My brother had one for a while, and that was kind of what we saw. He and my mother were allowed near him, anyone else, he'd get super angry super fast. That said, my brother had no idea how to properly socialize the dog and should never have had it.

On the other hand, you just don't hear about springer spaniels doing that kind of thing. They seem to have a generally less aggressive temperament. I would suspect that this comes from the different ways they were selectively bread to achieve specific goals for the groups of people raising them. Akitas were the samurai's loyal pet meant to protect the master from anyone else... springer spaniels flushed birds out of bushes... different traits are desirable for those jobs.

I'm not trying to take the blame off the owners, I'm just saying that the dog does have a little bit to do with it also.
 
2011-02-24 03:37:59 PM  

erst: KiTTeNs_on_AciD:
The traits that define individual breeds of domestic dog are secondary, all built upon that foundation of it being natural to be a part of a human / dog pack. Humans that act like a pack leader to that dog will satisfy the dog's low-level psychological needs and earn its trust, respect, and obedience. People who let the dog do whatever the fark it wants will have a dominant dog that thinks itself master of its own destiny because nobody ever told it what to do. This is true for poodles, pits and everything in between.

And that's why most chihuahuas are raging assholes.


EXACTLY! In fact that's why so many little dogs and pits are raging assholes.... shiatTY OWNERS!

shiatty little dog owners let their dogs do whatever the fark they want because they think it's "cute". shiatty big dog owners let their dogs do whatever the fark they want because they either don't know how to handle them, are afraid of them themselves, or are just retarded.

This does not make it the breeds fault, and taking it out on responsible owners with a ban is dumb, ineffective, and unamurican.

I just adopted a "special needs" vicious chihuahua back in November. Had been given up twice already and was only 2 years old. After 3 months of living with my wife and I and a lot of work, she is an angel.
 
2011-02-24 03:42:39 PM  

socratesthekidd: On the other hand, you just don't hear about springer spaniels doing that kind of thing.


Oh! CSB time! I've been attacked by a dog twice in my life. Both times, it was a Springer Spaniel. However, I don't run around telling everybody that they're a terrible breed of dog and that no one should own one, because I'm not a farking moron. Not saying you are, but there's definitely a few in this thread.
 
2011-02-24 03:44:01 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: I asked for a citation that proved pits as more aggressive than other breeds. You gave me no such thing. What you did give me was a site that said pits killed 52 people in 3 years. That is small fries compared to accidental gun deaths, but you only think a ban is absurd in one case.... the case of far fewer fatalities. Tell me again who is brain dead?


Who the fark is talking about guns? I don't give a shiat one way or another, but if someone's holding a gun I'm going to assume they're going to shoot someone. Or else why would you have a gun? Whereas a dog owner doesn't treat their dog like it's a loaded gun.

ps, pitbull=gun
all these other breeds you're talking about with less severe bites? they range from super soaker to bb gun. Those don't require a license either.
So how about we compromise and pitbull mix breeds require a license, and all the normal dogs that aren't likely to kill you don't require a license. Deal?
 
2011-02-24 03:48:19 PM  

I am Ahab: socratesthekidd: On the other hand, you just don't hear about springer spaniels doing that kind of thing.

Oh! CSB time! I've been attacked by a dog twice in my life. Both times, it was a Springer Spaniel. However, I don't run around telling everybody that they're a terrible breed of dog and that no one should own one, because I'm not a farking moron. Not saying you are, but there's definitely a few in this thread.


Well done.

I would contend that like anything with a brain, each individual dog is just that, an individual. Some dogs seem to be more prone to certain behaviors than others, but an individual dog can be anything.

Just found the nova episode that was suggested earlier and am going to watch it, so i may have more intelligent things to say eventually. I admit, I'm kind of speculating.

//also not saying that pits are terrible and should be banned.... just saying they may not be inherently wonderful either. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.
///still thinks springer spaniels are adorable in a hyperactive spazzy way
 
2011-02-24 03:49:55 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: she is an angel.


So you finally decided to just euthanize her?

/I haven't got a dog in this fight

//Seriously, I do - I gave in to the firearms analogy a long time ago. Guns don't kill people, irresponsible people kill people. Pitty's don't kill people, irresponsible owners result in pittys killing people...though I would never own a pitty, I couldn't trust them. Personal anecdotes are personal.
 
2011-02-24 03:51:19 PM  

socratesthekidd: I am Ahab: socratesthekidd: On the other hand, you just don't hear about springer spaniels doing that kind of thing.


There is an entity called "Springer Rage," and it isn't limited to the TV show.

-TMYK
 
2011-02-24 03:51:36 PM  
socratesthekidd:

in regards to the pack bit there at the end... and I admit, I'm kind of speculating based on brief wiki searches and personal experience... but some dogs do seem to be more prone to being aggressive than others. I remember an npr thing i heard a while back on akitas, and how apparently they're absolutely wonderful to whoever they view as "leader" but will royally fark up just about anyone else. My brother had one for a while, and that was kind of what we saw. He and my mother were allowed near him, anyone else, he'd get super angry super fast. That said, my brother had no idea how to properly socialize the dog and should never have had it.

On the other hand, you just don't hear about springer spaniels doing that kind of thing. They seem to have a generally less aggressive temperament. I would suspect that this comes from the different ways they were selectively bread to achieve specific goals for the groups of people raising them. Akitas were the samurai's loyal pet meant to protect the master from anyone else... springer spaniels flushed birds out of bushes... different traits are desirable for those jobs.

I'm not trying to take the blame off the owners, I'm just saying that the dog does have a little bit to do with it also.


You touched on a few things there. What you are saying about some breeds being more aggressive by nature is only true if they are not told what they are supposed to do. In other words, if you don't tell a doberman what to do, it may give itself the job of being a guard dog. Telling a dog what it's supposed to be doing is a combination of consistently correcting unwanted behavior and giving it constructive things to do like walking on a leash, retrieving a tennis ball and so on.

An akita that hasn't been taught to be a housedog, may consider itself a bodyguard dog. The breed will come out where discipline and training are not present. Dogs just don't sit idle by default, they are going to do something. If you don't teach them what to do and what not to do, they will decide for themselves.

That aside, there are also dominant dogs and submissive dogs by nature. Canine species in the wild form packs, someone has to lead, thus there are dominant traits. These dogs will take someone with more experience to get them balanced and submissive, but it is far from impossible. These things apply across the board to all domestic dogs lower level psychology, the breed traits are secondary to this.
 
2011-02-24 03:56:55 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: socratesthekidd:

in regards to the pack bit there at the end... and I admit, I'm kind of speculating based on brief wiki searches and personal experience... but some dogs do seem to be more prone to being aggressive than others. I remember an npr thing i heard a while back on akitas, and how apparently they're absolutely wonderful to whoever they view as "leader" but will royally fark up just about anyone else. My brother had one for a while, and that was kind of what we saw. He and my mother were allowed near him, anyone else, he'd get super angry super fast. That said, my brother had no idea how to properly socialize the dog and should never have had it.

On the other hand, you just don't hear about springer spaniels doing that kind of thing. They seem to have a generally less aggressive temperament. I would suspect that this comes from the different ways they were selectively bread to achieve specific goals for the groups of people raising them. Akitas were the samurai's loyal pet meant to protect the master from anyone else... springer spaniels flushed birds out of bushes... different traits are desirable for those jobs.

I'm not trying to take the blame off the owners, I'm just saying that the dog does have a little bit to do with it also.

You touched on a few things there. What you are saying about some breeds being more aggressive by nature is only true if they are not told what they are supposed to do. In other words, if you don't tell a doberman what to do, it may give itself the job of being a guard dog. Telling a dog what it's supposed to be doing is a combination of consistently correcting unwanted behavior and giving it constructive things to do like walking on a leash, retrieving a tennis ball and so on.

An akita that hasn't been taught to be a housedog, may consider itself a bodyguard dog. The breed will come out where discipline and training are not present. Dogs just don't sit idle by default, they are going to do something. If you don't teach them what to do and what not to do, they will decide for themselves.

That aside, there are also dominant dogs and submissive dogs by nature. Canine species in the wild form packs, someone has to lead, thus there are dominant traits. These dogs will take someone with more experience to get them balanced and submissive, but it is far from impossible. These things apply across the board to all domestic dogs lower level psychology, the breed traits are secondary to this.


I guess that's kind of my point. I suspect that, if left to their own devices, breeds like pits are more likely to default to aggression than some other dogs.
 
2011-02-24 03:58:26 PM  

farfigneugan: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: I asked for a citation that proved pits as more aggressive than other breeds. You gave me no such thing. What you did give me was a site that said pits killed 52 people in 3 years. That is small fries compared to accidental gun deaths, but you only think a ban is absurd in one case.... the case of far fewer fatalities. Tell me again who is brain dead?

Who the fark is talking about guns? I don't give a shiat one way or another, but if someone's holding a gun I'm going to assume they're going to shoot someone. Or else why would you have a gun? Whereas a dog owner doesn't treat their dog like it's a loaded gun.

ps, pitbull=gun
all these other breeds you're talking about with less severe bites? they range from super soaker to bb gun. Those don't require a license either.
So how about we compromise and pitbull mix breeds require a license, and all the normal dogs that aren't likely to kill you don't require a license. Deal?



Dude, that is all I've been saying the entire time.

My only point from the original post that you quoted and called me a name over was a tongue-in-cheek way of saying that people are willing to accept a large number of accidental gun deaths without the word "ban" getting much support... Yet a much smaller number of people are killed by dogs and we get a 50/50 thread supporting a breed ban. No one ever mentions holding owners accountable and requiring training for dogs that are physically capable of killing someone, they skip straight to ban them all. It makes me angry and I will go to great lengths to point out how silly it sounds to me.

My fair compromise would be if everyone could just farking stop perpetuating the myth that pits are prone to violence by nature, and instead say simply that since it is physically powerful enough to kill a human, its handler should be compelled by law to take a training course and apply for a license.
 
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