Big Al: How ironic? Suddenly FDR speaks the truth when you right wingers want him to.

And suddenly he doesn't when you don't...strange how that works.

DeaH: Um, that mouth is way too large.

Link (new window)

The data is from that same link. Note that the graph you provided compared the top 20% to the remaining 80%.

eudemonist: xalres: What is it about people getting together to collectively bargain for better pay and benefits that just scares the everloving shiat out of republicans?

Something about having a small percentage of people being able to hold critical services hostage...maybe you should ask FDR.

Unions were created to help get workers a fair share of the profits, right? The problem is that governments aren't for-profit entities. The money public-sector unions get isn't profit--it's tax dollars.

Great point, it's ridiculous that government employees can hold critical services hostage. If only there were something we could do to stop them, maybe something like write in their contracts they are not allowed to strike and do that or they will be fired and replaced. It's too bad no one has ever thought of this. Ever. Nope, no one has thought of this. I'm completely sure, just like you, if we looked at the contracts of these government workers, there would be nothing in it that addresses this issue. So sure, just like you, that clearly there is no need to bother looking. Seriously, don't look. No, don't. Don't google it either. Because... we don't need to it's so obvious.

There's just something about the governor unilaterally deciding and mandating what fair compensation and benefits will be without any input whatsoever from the other side that seems... perfect because nothing could go wrong!

Spanky_McFarksalot: one of walkers heros is Ronnie R. He wants to be seen as union busting just like the gimper so his Kock Brother masters will throw him a bone.

Farkin douchebag.

This, basically. Walker knows that if he succeeds in destroying the unions in Wisconsin - regardless of whether or not he is recalled - his future as an employee of one of the various Koch-related companies is secure.

The issue is there is no competitive landscape or real alternative with regard to public sector unions. Take teachers, where is the competition? There is none. If you talk vouchers the Democrats heads start to spin.

You guys all oppose defense contractors, right? Where is the competition for Halliburton? We should make it ILLEGAL for them to negotiate. If they don't like the price, the cheaper competition will do the job and I'm sure this will result in no loss of quality.

eudemonist Quote 2011-02-24 12:01:54 PM

And suddenly he doesn't when you don't...strange how that works.

>>>

You do realize FDR was against a lot of things, including many New Deal policies that his administration created, right? He wasn't 100% right about anything, and you morans love painting pretty pictures of everyone, like everything the Founders said you want to believe, even though a lot of what they believed was wrong, slavery, womens rights, voting rights, etc.

deadcrickets: Pssstt ... Walker lovers:

Matthew 19:24

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

Supply-Side Jesus says fark Matthew 19:24.

blahpers: Okay, wise guy. Explain Texas.

Texas is full of morons.

qorkfiend: This, basically. Walker knows that if he succeeds in destroying the unions in Wisconsin - regardless of whether or not he is recalled - his future as an employee of one of the various Koch-related companies is secure.

It probably already is. His preposterous and anti-freedom stance has already tainted him (hee hee hee, taint) for any future work. If we're going to make mafia analogies in this thread, he's like a good capo that did time to help the don, and now he's going to be rewarded with a position where we won't attract the "heat" to the main operation.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

From The 14 Characteristics of Fascism by Lawrence Britt.

Fizpez: Not in general, but in specifics - Like the toll booth collector that works 1000 hours of overtime in a year because they have the most seniority and gets first pick, that pulls down $120k in a year. Those jobs - they're the story people seem to remember to justify their claim that all union workers make too much money.

Maybe I'm being dense, but as an aside: if you have a toll booth collector pulling down $120k a year, and most of it's in overtime, you need to hire more booth collectors.

(I vaguely remember a story on a bus driver who was making that sort of money, and there was some outrage - all I could think was, surely it's cheaper to hire in some more drivers?)

furiousxgeorge: You guys all oppose defense contractors, right? Where is the competition for Halliburton? We should make it ILLEGAL for them to negotiate. If they don't like the price, the cheaper competition will do the job and I'm sure this will result in no loss of quality.

No-bid contracts are totally fine when they do it. Becuase freedom, socialism and libs libs libs.... or something.

JohnCarter: xalres: What is it about people getting together to collectively bargain for better pay and benefits that just scares the everloving shiat out of republicans? It's almost like they want to go back to the days of robber barons.

The issue is there is no competitive landscape or real alternative with regard to public sector unions. Take teachers, where is the competition? There is none. If you talk vouchers the Democrats heads start to spin.

The public sector unions basically hire their own bosses (the elected officials) who then give them pension, benefits, and in many cases pay that exceeds equivalent private sector positions. The money is not theirs, comes from taxes, so what the hell, give more.

In the market place there is a check and balance, i.e. the consumer of your product. If a firm is unionized and their product or service is not a "value" then other firms may offer the same at less. Car companies are a good example, or if you are having work done do you want a Union carpenter with inflexible work rules or a non-union who will get the job done?

With public sector unions the only check and balance is replacement of elected officials WHICH Wisconsin did, but then the minority party decided to try and overturn the will of the people by leaving the state to prevent the vote. Basically throwing a hissy fit.

Ask yourself, what if a Republican minority in a state had left to prevent action on a bill? The ABC's, NBC's, CNN's, and CBS's would have a much different slant than the "courageous" democrats they are now portraying.

Well, I think it would depend on whether or not there was a simultaneous public outcry and protest against the very issue your hypothetical Republican minority was preventing.

I get the point of 'hey, that's democracy - you get what you voted in' - but hey, democracy doesn't have to End at the ballot box. The Democrats are following the will of the public on this, and I think I'm good with that.

If they were just doing it to obstruct progress and appease their corporate masters, then you'd be right - but that really doesn't seem to be the case here.

I did enjoy the 'and next up it's crazy Glenn' line.

dwrash: RussianPooper: xalres: What is it about people getting together to collectively bargain for better pay and benefits that just scares the everloving shiat out of republicans? It's almost like they want to go back to the days of robber barons.

Almost? That's exactly what their policies scream for.

It's about coersion and freedom... Why should I have to join a union if I want to be a public school teacher? Especially when I have no say in what my union dues are going to be used for?.. and secondly, the union will force me to be a mediocre teacher.. which is why our public school system is failing in this country.

nice strawman asshat

a union doesn't force to be any more mediocre than you already are. From what i can tell mediocre is something you should strive for...maybe if you try reeeeeeeally hard...

/because fark you

Mercutio74: It's about making sure what's fair.

The "negotiations" of the past in WI were between the union and the government installed and financed by the union. Is that fair? Or is it a conflict of interest?
As a payback to the union, the union members receive pay and benefits that exceed the pay and benefits of those forced to pay those union members, the taxpayers of WI. Now we have a government that was installed and financed by business interests. Isn't that just as fair? Or is it more fair considering most people in WI don't work for a government union.
These union workers will still have pay and benefits that exceed those of the people who pay them. Is that still fair?
Life isn't fair, but turn-about is fair play.

Mercutio74: dwrash: It's about coersion and freedom... Why should I have to join a union if I want to be a public school teacher? Especially when I have no say in what my union dues are going to be used for?.. and secondly, the union will force me to be a mediocre teacher.. which is why our public school system is failing in this country.

Your unions dues are used to benefit the membership. If they're not, you vote in new leadership for your union. You have far more say in what your unions dues are used for than you do for your tax dollars.

The only thing that I do agree with you on is that unions should not be allowed to flat out prevent members from being fired, however if a member is fired and desires assistance in keeping their job or in a reasonable legal action against the employer, the union should back that member. But, you have to realize that if I union ever does have an absolute right of who gets hired and fired... that was negotiated, it's not like they just claimed that perk.

But when the union is entrenched with people looking out for medocrity and for the union to preserve jobs the no longer excel out, its pretty much impossible to vote the union out of the mind set.

Unions have their place if they have the welfare of their business in mind and work with management to become better and more profitable (or become better teachers for the kids)... we get there together. But right now companies view unions and nothing more then bullies and only deal with them as little as possible and are not interested in rewarding people for excellent work.

When was the last time a company offered bonuses to union employees for increasing productivity and profit?... I've never heard of such a thing in my entire life.

Skleenar: DeaH: Um, that mouth is way too large.

Link (new window)

The data is from that same link. Note that the graph you provided compared the top 20% to the remaining 80%.

The second graph (the bar chart) shows that the top 80% take up way more than the pie chart allows for the top 90%.

lennavan: If only there were something we could do to stop them, maybe something like write in their contracts they are not allowed to strike and do that or they will be fired and replaced.

Ooh, good idea! I'm sure they'll be happy to go for that! Maybe they should have done that back when Democrats had the power in Wisconsin...effect those simple solutions.

Instead, they held the government over a barrel until the taxpayers were contributing forty times as much to their funds as they were.

If they had bargained in good faith when they had the chance, we wouldn't be here now.

Regarding Walker and his tape:

"This morning the Capital Times quotes the state's former Attorney General: "There clearly are potential ethics violations, and there are potential election-law violations and there are a lot of what look to me like labor-law violations," said Peg Lautenschlage"

Spanky_McFarksalot: one of walkers heros is Ronnie R. He wants to be seen as union busting just like the gimper so his Kock Brother masters will throw him a bone.


Funny story: David Koch was the VP candidate on the 1980 Libertarian Party ticket running AGAINST Reagan.

EnderX: Won't removing collective bargaining allow a person not to have to join a union? Isn't choice a good thing?

You know, I wondered who could be so ruthlessly uniformed, yet so certain of their rectitude as to ask that question, so I read your profile.

Then, I LOL'd.

Tyee: The "negotiations" of the past in WI were between the union and the government installed and financed by the union. Is that fair? Or is it a conflict of interest?
As a payback to the union, the union members receive pay and benefits that exceed the pay and benefits of those forced to pay those union members, the taxpayers of WI. Now we have a government that was installed and financed by business interests. Isn't that just as fair? Or is it more fair considering most people in WI don't work for a government union.
These union workers will still have pay and benefits that exceed those of the people who pay them. Is that still fair?
Life isn't fair, but turn-about is fair play.

So you oppose corporate involvement in the political process right? Can't have people who install the government negotiating contracts with it!

hurdboy: Stealthdozer: 10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

From The 14 Characteristics of Fascism by Lawrence Britt.

So, I'm counting 4/14 in the US right now.

/There's stuff missing there, like, paternalism in the national interest
//Obligatory, "your blog sucks"

Should be 12/14 if you counted correctly.

eudemonist: lennavan: If only there were something we could do to stop them, maybe something like write in their contracts they are not allowed to strike and do that or they will be fired and replaced.

Ooh, good idea! I'm sure they'll be happy to go for that! Maybe they should have done that back when Democrats had the power in Wisconsin...effect those simple solutions.

Instead, they held the government over a barrel until the taxpayers were contributing forty times as much to their funds as they were.

If they had bargained in good faith when they had the chance, we wouldn't be here now.

You know how I know you know nothing about this issue?

I see the new phrase du jour of the Republicans is that it's the teachers unions that are the reason why we're falling behind in education.

It couldn't be that we have a society that glorifies idiots like Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian, and Justin Bieber. Or the fact that people who are intelligent and interested in teaching take other career paths due to the incredible income difference.

Nope, it's those damned unions.

hurdboy: Stealthdozer: 10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

From The 14 Characteristics of Fascism by Lawrence Britt.

So, I'm counting 4/14 in the US right now.

/There's stuff missing there, like, paternalism in the national interest
//Obligatory, "your blog sucks"

The scary thing is that the Tea Party actually wants to hit all fourteen of those.

someonelse: As of this week, 61% of Americans wouldn't want Walker's budget repair bill to pass in their state. Disapproval for it is high not just among Democrats, but also among the highly coveted independents.

As a highly coveted independent I would welcome that bill in may state. The only poll that really matters is the one taken last Nov. in WI.
I'm not anti-union either. But I have rarely seen a union reverse or give anything back when time are tough, like now. My state needs to really cut back, and it is going to need a lot more than just the unions to make concessions, everyone will need to.

Bf+: Countdown to Shep being booted...3...2...1...

The same way he got fired over the 9/11 first responders health care bill commentary or the "this is the US and we don't farking torture" comments?

eudemonist: lennavan: If only there were something we could do to stop them, maybe something like write in their contracts they are not allowed to strike and do that or they will be fired and replaced.

Ooh, good idea! I'm sure they'll be happy to go for that! Maybe they should have done that back when Democrats had the power in Wisconsin...effect those simple solutions.

Instead, they held the government over a barrel until the taxpayers were contributing forty times as much to their funds as they were.

If they had bargained in good faith when they had the chance, we wouldn't be here now.

I know, right?!?!111!?!

Hehe, I get your sarcasm, I'm totally with you. We agree, there's no chance in hell a public worker in Wisconsin would ever go for allowing some sort of prohibition on them striking and shutting down necessary services. EVER. NEVER. Seriously, NEVER. Why do you keep looking at me? Seriously it won't, can't and will never happen. Zero chance.

What's more, they never went for that stuff in the past. Ever. And if you googled it or looked it up yourself, you'd definitely find proof that we're both right. You'd find so much proof and it's so obvious, there's not even a point in looking it up, amirite?

And hey, I agree, if the unions had bargained in good faith, there would not be a problem. Look, we're in a financial crisis here. Some people are gonna biatch and moan that the crisis didn't exist previously and was caused by giving more tax cuts to big business but wah wah wah. Why do people hate profits and capitalism? Farking commies. The unions clearly need to pay more for their benefits. Had the unions just agreed to these cuts in the first place there would be no issue. But the unions didn't agree to any of the cuts, what's more, they asked, no they DEMANDED raises and better benefits and free cars and more vacations and unicorns. There's no way in hell they agreed to any of the cuts. So to think they agreed to all of the cuts is just to be retarded. It's so obvious, again, you don't need to actually bother looking any of this stuff up.

Farking Unions. WTF is their problem?

Tyee: someonelse: As of this week, 61% of Americans wouldn't want Walker's budget repair bill to pass in their state. Disapproval for it is high not just among Democrats, but also among the highly coveted independents.

As a highly coveted independent I would welcome that bill in may state. The only poll that really matters is the one taken last Nov. in WI.
I'm not anti-union either. But I have rarely seen a union reverse or give anything back when time are tough, like now. My state needs to really cut back, and it is going to need a lot more than just the unions to make concessions, everyone will need to.

The Wisconsin unions have already agreed to concessions because times are tough. The issue is Walker denying them the right to renegotiate when times aren't tough.

I'm sure you know that though, FUD away.

We are in a financial crisis thanks to the wealthy and corporations, mainly banks. So why then, lennavan, should workers be the ones making all the sacrifices? How much is the CEO of Bank of America and Goldman making this year?

DeaH: The second graph (the bar chart) shows that the top 80% take up way more than the pie chart allows for the top 90%.

?

I think you are confused.

Source

dwrash: When was the last time a company offered bonuses to union employees for increasing productivity and profit?... I've never heard of such a thing in my entire life.

Seriously?

Never?

Not once?

In your entire life?

You must not be paying much attention, then.

airsupport: Shep from the Three Stooges?

This should be HILARIOUS!

Fail.

Thank was Shemp.

Tyee: someonelse: As of this week, 61% of Americans wouldn't want Walker's budget repair bill to pass in their state. Disapproval for it is high not just among Democrats, but also among the highly coveted independents.

As a highly coveted independent I would welcome that bill in may state. The only poll that really matters is the one taken last Nov. in WI.
I'm not anti-union either. But I have rarely seen a union reverse or give anything back when time are tough, like now. My state needs to really cut back, and it is going to need a lot more than just the unions to make concessions, everyone will need to.

Personally I am anti-union. However, I don't feel that this is the right way to do it. Taking away their rights they have under the Bill of Rights is dangerous.

Big Al: Corporations and the wealthy should hold all the power and all the cards in bargaining, it's the only way to create a fair and healthy society... just ask Andrew Carnegie.

That was weird... I'm listening to NPR and the guest is talking about social darwinism and says Carnegie's name RIGHT when I looked up at your post.

/Waves hand mysteriously

dwrash: But when the union is entrenched with people looking out for medocrity and for the union to preserve jobs the no longer excel out, its pretty much impossible to vote the union out of the mind set.

I don't know about your experience, but if I were hiring a bunch of people and starting a company there are a lot of people in my union that I would be overjoyed to come work with me. And there are a lot of my wife's non-union co-workers that would be near the bottom of my list. There's nothing about a union that specifically protects poor employees. There is a protection for union members however.

Honestly, and maybe my industry is different than most, we want to have the best of the best in our guild. It makes hiring one of our members mean something positive for a production. And I also work in a industry where if you can't pull your weight, you will be removed. You can file a grievance if you like, and the union will help you, but you're not going to automatically win simply because you're in a professional organization.

Unions have their place if they have the welfare of their business in mind and work with management to become better and more profitable (or become better teachers for the kids)... we get there together. But right now companies view unions and nothing more then bullies and only deal with them as little as possible and are not interested in rewarding people for excellent work.

That's because companies would rather not deal with unions. Collective bargaining is a tool to get the balance closer to rewarding people's hard work on one side and making sure that the company is healthy enough to need workers on the other. Without the ability to bargain collectively, the balance usually trends towards low pay and crap conditions for workers and increased profits for the owners and shareholders. If you can't see that corporate America has run a smear campaign against unions for decades, I think you're maybe not being totally objective.

Are there bad and unreasonable unions? Definitely. Are most of them good? Probably because we never hear about them in the news. And the unions in WI seem to be among the good ones because they negotiated a concession in the gov't's favour before any of this happened. The membership was willing to help the state... now the state wants to crush them.

When was the last time a company offered bonuses to union employees for increasing productivity and profit?... I've never heard of such a thing in my entire life.

Profit sharing?

furiousxgeorge: So you oppose corporate involvement in the political process right? Can't have people who install the government negotiating contracts with it!

Did I say that? The pendulum has swung from union involvement to corporate involvement. I'd prefer neither had control, and that the government fostered and encouraged an environment of free competition both on the labor and corporate side. How to accomplish that is another issue.

A very good summarization from Mr. Williams and Mr. Smith.

airsupport: Shep from the Three Stooges?

This should be HILARIOUS!

It'll be okay, but let's face facts: Curly is the funniest third stooge.

Jster422: JohnCarter: xalres: What is it about people getting together to collectively bargain for better pay and benefits that just scares the everloving shiat out of republicans? It's almost like they want to go back to the days of robber barons.

The issue is there is no competitive landscape or real alternative with regard to public sector unions. Take teachers, where is the competition? There is none. If you talk vouchers the Democrats heads start to spin.

The public sector unions basically hire their own bosses (the elected officials) who then give them pension, benefits, and in many cases pay that exceeds equivalent private sector positions. The money is not theirs, comes from taxes, so what the hell, give more.

In the market place there is a check and balance, i.e. the consumer of your product. If a firm is unionized and their product or service is not a "value" then other firms may offer the same at less. Car companies are a good example, or if you are having work done do you want a Union carpenter with inflexible work rules or a non-union who will get the job done?

With public sector unions the only check and balance is replacement of elected officials WHICH Wisconsin did, but then the minority party decided to try and overturn the will of the people by leaving the state to prevent the vote. Basically throwing a hissy fit.

Ask yourself, what if a Republican minority in a state had left to prevent action on a bill? The ABC's, NBC's, CNN's, and CBS's would have a much different slant than the "courageous" democrats they are now portraying.

Well, I think it would depend on whether or not there was a simultaneous public outcry and protest against the very issue your hypothetical Republican minority was preventing.

I get the point of 'hey, that's democracy - you get what you voted in' - but hey, democracy doesn't have to End at the ballot box. The Democrats are following the will of the public on this, and I think I'm good with that.

If they were just doing it to obstruct progress and appease their corporate masters, then you'd be right - but that really doesn't seem to be the case here.


Really - so the will of the people is a small minority (the teachers) or the bussed in union folks from out of state? The reason that the teachers etc are able to protest and WALK OFF THEIR JOB is because of the union work rules, etc. The people of Wisconsin that want change are not able to protest because they are PRODUCERS and are saddles with paying for the teacher's pay and benefits.

Elections have consequences, do the business elected to do, if you are not pleased, settle it at the ballot box, not running away.

Also the comment:

If they were just doing it to obstruct progress and appease their corporate masters

The WI democrat lawmakers corporate masters are not the people that elected them, they are they Unions who contribute huge amounts of cash to elections , much more than Koch or any business.

So yes they are obstructing for their puppet masters

Tyee: I'd prefer neither had control, and that the government fostered and encouraged an environment of free competition both on the labor and corporate side. How to accomplish that is another issue.

You do it by letting labor and business negotiate with each other. Bargain, if you will.

someonelse:
Let's wait until he weighs in on whether Wisconsinites' native garb frightens him or not.



This frightens me and I'm a native.

Stealthdozer: 10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

From The 14 Characteristics of Fascism by Lawrence Britt.

Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

So... the USA has the world's strongest military. It has for decades. Does that mean because one point of 14 has the same agenda that the US is suddenly on the fast track to fascism?

Here... let me do another one:

From "14 ways to become a monkey":
10: Eat a lot of bananas

So, if you are eating bananas, you're on the way to becoming a monkey!