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(Telegraph)   Scientists claim seeds of criminal and anti-social behavior can be found in children as young as three ... so drug them all -- it's the only way to be sure   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 85
    More: Interesting, antisocial behavior, brain scans, criminologists, bad behaviour, Indiana University, England and Wales, tendency  
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3675 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Feb 2011 at 5:31 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-02-21 10:48:02 PM
"That scientist is a bad man ... a very bad man."
schadendude.files.wordpress.com
 
2011-02-21 10:48:45 PM
I thought skin color was from birth.

*ducks*
 
2011-02-21 11:35:18 PM
Is this really news? We've know for a long time that children who exhibit a greater degree of impulsive behavior and an inability to delay gratification tend to do poorly later on in life.
 
2011-02-22 12:20:55 AM

Arthur Jumbles: Is this really news? We've know for a long time that children who exhibit a greater degree of impulsive behavior and an inability to delay gratification tend to do poorly later on in life.


So why do we keep electing them?
 
2011-02-22 01:34:24 AM
Accompanied by a sloping criminal forehead?
 
2011-02-22 01:52:44 AM
Abortion does away with the need for brain scans.
 
2011-02-22 05:17:28 AM

FirstNationalBastard: Abortion does away with the need for brain scans.


An abortion could have saved us from that useless comment.
 
2011-02-22 05:35:14 AM
This is creepy.

Don't let them get their foot in the door.
 
2011-02-22 05:37:27 AM
So, if people can be shown to be violent before they start to learn how to do things, then maybe the scientists should send themselves to jail to prove their point that every human is violent, no matter how young they are!
 
2011-02-22 05:38:15 AM
Come on, The Onion has known this for years

New Study Reveals Most Children Unrepentant Sociopaths (new window)
 
2011-02-22 05:51:00 AM
Dr Raine said he acknowledged the ethical implications of treating children before they had done anything wrong, but argued that "biological" causes of crime could not be ignored.

"We could be ostriches and stick our heads in the sand but I believe we have to pursue the causes of crime at a biological and genetic level as well as at a social," he said.


I imagine Dr Raine would find certain genetic groups much more likely to commit crime than others. I'd also guess he would ascribe the over-representation of certain groups in prison to genetic predisposition to be criminals.

We've heard these racist arguments before, and they are refuted every time. Intellectual rigor is unfortunately not the strong suit of Dr Raines. I wonder if he's genetically predisposed to such beliefs.
 
2011-02-22 05:54:24 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Dr Raine said he acknowledged the ethical implications of treating children before they had done anything wrong, but argued that "biological" causes of crime could not be ignored.

"We could be ostriches and stick our heads in the sand but I believe we have to pursue the causes of crime at a biological and genetic level as well as at a social," he said.

I imagine Dr Raine would find certain genetic groups much more likely to commit crime than others. I'd also guess he would ascribe the over-representation of certain groups in prison to genetic predisposition to be criminals.

We've heard these racist arguments before, and they are refuted every time. Intellectual rigor is unfortunately not the strong suit of Dr Raines. I wonder if he's genetically predisposed to such beliefs.


I wonder about his opinion on parades.
 
2011-02-22 05:56:02 AM

AbbeySomeone: I wonder about his opinion on parades.


His European vacation stories are pretty boring.
 
2011-02-22 05:56:45 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Dr Raine said he acknowledged the ethical implications of treating children before they had done anything wrong, but argued that "biological" causes of crime could not be ignored.

"We could be ostriches and stick our heads in the sand but I believe we have to pursue the causes of crime at a biological and genetic level as well as at a social," he said.

I imagine Dr Raine would find certain genetic groups much more likely to commit crime than others. I'd also guess he would ascribe the over-representation of certain groups in prison to genetic predisposition to be criminals.

We've heard these racist arguments before, and they are refuted every time. Intellectual rigor is unfortunately not the strong suit of Dr Raines. I wonder if he's genetically predisposed to such beliefs.


You're arguing against something that wasn't even implied
 
2011-02-22 06:02:23 AM
4.bp.blogspot.com

Saw this coming.

Put 'em in freeze.
 
2011-02-22 06:02:49 AM
"PreCrime: It Works"

Like 1984, Philip K. Dick's works were supposed to be warnings, not blueprints.
 
2011-02-22 06:06:40 AM
Uh oh. They've discovered the secret formula to farkers.
 
2011-02-22 06:09:46 AM

Le French Boo: Uh oh. They've discovered the secret formula to farkers.


Now there's gonna be cheap knock-offs everywhere since everyone knows how it's made
 
2011-02-22 06:11:42 AM

Schlock: AverageAmericanGuy: Dr Raine said he acknowledged the ethical implications of treating children before they had done anything wrong, but argued that "biological" causes of crime could not be ignored.

"We could be ostriches and stick our heads in the sand but I believe we have to pursue the causes of crime at a biological and genetic level as well as at a social," he said.

I imagine Dr Raine would find certain genetic groups much more likely to commit crime than others. I'd also guess he would ascribe the over-representation of certain groups in prison to genetic predisposition to be criminals.

We've heard these racist arguments before, and they are refuted every time. Intellectual rigor is unfortunately not the strong suit of Dr Raines. I wonder if he's genetically predisposed to such beliefs.

You're arguing against something that wasn't even implied


Really? Except for the part about some people being genetically predisposed to crime...

I'll assume you aren't up on your codewords. "Genetic predisposition" when talking about IQ, test scores, crime, and athleticism really means "Blacks are mentally inferior and more violent than whites".
 
2011-02-22 06:11:48 AM
Nice way to predict future members of Wall Street, Governers and members of congress...
 
2011-02-22 06:14:10 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Really? Except for the part about some people being genetically predisposed to crime...

I'll assume you aren't up on your codewords. "Genetic predisposition" when talking about IQ, test scores, crime, and athleticism really means "Blacks are mentally inferior and more violent than whites".


The entire article is about people being biologically predisposed to crime. The only time the word genetic is even used is that quote about how both biological and genetic causes should be pursued. Saying that you have a brain formation that makes you predisposed to crime is not the same as saying it's genetic.
 
2011-02-22 06:14:33 AM
So, can anybody show me any studies that have shown that brain development is *not* dependent on your genes?

Now, can anybody show me any studies that show that brain development *is* dependent on your genes?

Can we all stop this myth that the brain is the only part of a human that is formed somehow independent of genetics and if you had the genes of a mouse or horse or jellyfish for example you would still have the same potential for behaviour and learning...

It`s like people are so scared of being called racist that they have a blind spot about the brain and the genes resposible for forming it. If genes do not express to make differences in brains then womens brains are the same as mens, every humans brain is the same as everyone elses and cows brains are the same as chickens brains are the same as pig brains are the same as sheep brains...

/it`s an argument to go vegan
//they all think like you
///not vegan
 
2011-02-22 06:19:20 AM

dready zim: So, can anybody show me any studies that have shown that brain development is *not* dependent on your genes?

Now, can anybody show me any studies that show that brain development *is* dependent on your genes?


farking epigenetics, how do they work?
 
2011-02-22 06:23:57 AM
Dr Nathalie Fontaine, who also spoke at the conference, argued that children as young as four exhibited "callous unemotional traits" such as lack of guilt and empathy that could also suggest future bad behaviour.

No, that suggests they're children. It's your job as a parent to teach them morals rather than throwing your hands up in the air.
 
2011-02-22 06:25:21 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Schlock: AverageAmericanGuy: Dr Raine said he acknowledged the ethical implications of treating children before they had done anything wrong, but argued that "biological" causes of crime could not be ignored.

"We could be ostriches and stick our heads in the sand but I believe we have to pursue the causes of crime at a biological and genetic level as well as at a social," he said.

I imagine Dr Raine would find certain genetic groups much more likely to commit crime than others. I'd also guess he would ascribe the over-representation of certain groups in prison to genetic predisposition to be criminals.

We've heard these racist arguments before, and they are refuted every time. Intellectual rigor is unfortunately not the strong suit of Dr Raines. I wonder if he's genetically predisposed to such beliefs.

You're arguing against something that wasn't even implied

Really? Except for the part about some people being genetically predisposed to crime...

I'll assume you aren't up on your codewords. "Genetic predisposition" when talking about IQ, test scores, crime, and athleticism really means "Blacks are mentally inferior and more violent than whites".


knowyourmeme.com

/oblig
 
2011-02-22 06:28:10 AM

vgss: Dr Nathalie Fontaine, who also spoke at the conference, argued that children as young as four exhibited "callous unemotional traits" such as lack of guilt and empathy that could also suggest future bad behaviour.

No, that suggests they're children. It's your job as a parent to teach them morals rather than throwing your hands up in the air.


Are you suggesting that people actually parent their own children and take responsibility?
That's some crazy sh*t idea you got.
 
2011-02-22 06:28:23 AM

vgss: Dr Nathalie Fontaine, who also spoke at the conference, argued that children as young as four exhibited "callous unemotional traits" such as lack of guilt and empathy that could also suggest future bad behaviour.

No, that suggests they're children. It's your job as a parent to teach them morals rather than throwing your hands up in the air.


They can throw them up in the air, just as long as they don't wave them like they just don't care.
 
2011-02-22 06:29:20 AM

Hawnkee: vgss: Dr Nathalie Fontaine, who also spoke at the conference, argued that children as young as four exhibited "callous unemotional traits" such as lack of guilt and empathy that could also suggest future bad behaviour.

No, that suggests they're children. It's your job as a parent to teach them morals rather than throwing your hands up in the air.

They can throw them up in the air, just as long as they don't wave them like they just don't care.


word up
 
2011-02-22 06:37:30 AM
In some countries it's a crime to insult the king. Can I find out about someone's predisposition toward that now ?
 
2011-02-22 06:37:39 AM
Way to avoid the questions ponce, epigenetics shows that the expression of genes can be altered without changing the underlying DNA. When the actual DNA changes are there any studies that show unchanged ability and potential?

Could epigenetics turn a horse brain into a chicken brain for example?

no. The DNA determines whether you are a chicken, horse or human.
A well fed chicken, horse or human in a stimulating low toxin environment will perform better than malnourished and stressed animals. A horse though will stil run faster than a chicken. Both can run faster than me.

A car engine for example expresses it`s potential depending on the conditions, if the air is thin and low oxygen with poor fuel it makes low power. With better fuel and good airflow the engine makes more power. This is epigenetics. (to make the analogy properly lets assume carbon buildup which changes the engine characteristics)

Taking out the pistons, replacing them with lighter, stronger ones. Adjusting valve timings and replacing the crankshaft to allow faster RPM. This also makes more power. This is genetics.

However you treat a horse, it will not lay eggs.


not every persons brain is the same.

/averageamericanguy, do you call your wife an anti-semite every time she puts the oven on?
 
2011-02-22 06:40:52 AM
You know who else was child?
 
2011-02-22 06:41:01 AM
3 year olds still have 3 years of shiatty parenting. 3 of the most important formulative years, mind you. I don't think you can look at toddlers, find differences, and claim it's genetic. A baby that is ignored, hit, listens to parents screaming at each other, etc is gonna end up being a very different toddler
 
2011-02-22 06:42:16 AM
Now, whilst I am sure not all brains are the same and DNA plays a part I agree with

Coming on a Bicycle: In some countries it's a crime to insult the king. Can I find out about someone's predisposition toward that now ?


How do you choose what behaviour you treat at age 3? Shall we medicate for jaywalking?
 
2011-02-22 06:46:53 AM
Also, libertyordeath has a good point, this should be genetic testing followed by life observance. correlate pure double blind genetic testing with records of what people did in life. I remember age 3, I had opinions based upon experience.

A lot can happen in 3 years.
 
2011-02-22 06:48:41 AM

AbbeySomeone: Are you suggesting that people actually parent their own children and take responsibility?
That's some crazy sh*t idea you got.


Are you saying that some people are genetically predisposed to being poor parents?
 
2011-02-22 06:54:52 AM

HAMMERTOE: AbbeySomeone: Are you suggesting that people actually parent their own children and take responsibility?
That's some crazy sh*t idea you got.

Are you saying that some people are genetically predisposed to being poor parents?


Ha.
Genetics, environment, whatever. Most people should.not.reproduce.
 
2011-02-22 06:58:20 AM

dready zim: Could epigenetics turn a horse brain into a chicken brain for example?


Did anyone suggest that it could? However, the actual process of wiring of the developing brain is much more dynamic than a simple genetic translation. Could an epigenetic change in extremely early development [prenatal] cause some progenitor neurons of someone's amygdala to atrophy? Absofarkinglutely. Especially when it's been shown that fetal alcohol syndrome, which also causes gross differences in brain structure is caused by something as simple as the radial glia being slightly drunk. Granted, the window for "abnormality" these kids have would be much later.

/seriously spent all last week trying to find a way to use SEFL on newborns without completely traumatizing the poor little rats.
 
2011-02-22 07:00:35 AM

PonceAlyosha: Could an epigenetic change in extremely early development [prenatal] cause some progenitor neurons of someone's amygdala to atrophy? Absofarkinglutely. Especially when it's been shown that fetal alcohol syndrome, which also causes gross differences in brain structure is caused by something as simple as the radial glia being slightly drunk.


Granted being drunk isn't an epigenetic change, but it down-regulated most of the guidance factors so you understand why it is pertinent.
 
2011-02-22 07:15:32 AM

FloydA: Arthur Jumbles: Is this really news? We've know for a long time that children who exhibit a greater degree of impulsive behavior and an inability to delay gratification tend to do poorly later on in life.

So why do we keep electing them?


Explains the 2010 elections completely.
 
2011-02-22 07:29:34 AM
I thought nuking them from orbit was the only way to be sure.
 
2011-02-22 07:33:30 AM

dready zim: /averageamericanguy, do you call your wife an anti-semite every time she puts the oven on?


No, but I might be concerned if she started doodling "88", "14", or "HH" in her sketchpad.

/she's not Chinese.
 
2011-02-22 07:46:34 AM

FloydA: Arthur Jumbles: Is this really news? We've know for a long time that children who exhibit a greater degree of impulsive behavior and an inability to delay gratification tend to do poorly later on in life.

So why do we keep electing them?


Win.
 
2011-02-22 07:47:57 AM

snuff3r: FirstNationalBastard: Abortion does away with the need for brain scans.

An abortion could have saved us from that useless comment.


so could a BJ - don't be such a prude
 
2011-02-22 07:52:02 AM
There's something very British and progressive about screening and medicating toddlers for future criminal behavior.

How about some good old fashioned parenting instead?

If your kid has serious behavior problems, the real problem is most likely you, or more exactly your unwillingness to deal with the behavior.
 
2011-02-22 08:02:07 AM

Animatronik: There's something very British and progressive about screening and medicating toddlers for future criminal behavior.


FTFA: "The theories were put forward by two leading criminologists at the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Washington."

You were saying?

/Yes, yes, one's a Brit.
 
2011-02-22 08:02:34 AM

geekbikerskum: "PreCrime: It Works"

Like 1984, Philip K. Dick's works were supposed to be warnings, not blueprints.


Yeah, Minority Report does come to mind.

The question is, was PreCrime such a bad concept? Would you rather live in a world where there was no murder or other violent crime, but extraordinarily rarely you had a false positive?

Or would you rather live in today's world of constant murders with false positives being quite common?

The only bad thing with the PreCrime of Minority Report was that they didn't try to rehabilitate the people they arrested. If they would have had a program for rehabilitation, it would have been a utopia. Wouldn't you want someone to keep you from committing murder as much as you'd want someone to prevent you from being murdered?
 
2011-02-22 08:16:05 AM

vgss: Dr Nathalie Fontaine, who also spoke at the conference, argued that children as young as four exhibited "callous unemotional traits" such as lack of guilt and empathy that could also suggest future bad behaviour.

No, that suggests they're children. It's your job as a parent to teach them morals rather than throwing your hands up in the air.


Your statement suggests you don't have children, that you have only one, or that the genetic lottery gave you very similar ones so you don't notice the typical dominance of nature over nurture.

No one is talking about throwing their hands up in the air and giving up. The guy seems to be just acknowledging propensities and saying that we should deal with predisposition proactively.

If you know that a child has a predisposition to develop Type 2 diabetes and that you can dramatically reduce the full blown disease with dietary restrictions, are you going to scoff at the doctor telling you about the predisposition?

Probably not. People get so sensitive when you start talking about the genetically influenced characteristics of the brain, though. It makes no sense biologically. It's one of those religious things that people seem to cling to despite all evidence to the contrary.
 
2011-02-22 08:23:29 AM

osgeek: Your statement suggests you don't have children, that you have only one, or that the genetic lottery gave you very similar ones so you don't notice the typical dominance of nature over nurture.


This doesn't have to be genetic, there could be a critical period for amygdalar development that these kids are missing. The amygdala is a very delicate piece of brain, too much stimulation and it become hyperactive; this is what causes PTSD. But there is a mechanism for switching "levels" of amygdalar activity, but we only have evidence it can increase. These kids could missing it, causing their amygdala to be HYPOactive, causing it to deteriorate from lack of stimulation.
 
2011-02-22 08:27:35 AM
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
 
2011-02-22 08:32:45 AM
xenophilius.files.wordpress.com
 
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