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(Daily Kos)   You know the conventional wisdom that public sector employees are overpaid leeches? Yeah, about that   (dailykos.com) divider line 586
    More: Interesting, conventional wisdom, Economic Policy Institute, oligarchy, public sector, Daily Kos, nephew-in-law  
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6238 clicks; posted to Politics » on 21 Feb 2011 at 4:48 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-02-21 11:47:56 AM
You know the conventional wisdom Republican talking point that public sector employees are overpaid leeches?

Fixed.
 
2011-02-21 11:52:04 AM
Bullsh*t.

Every union member I know has a cell phone and most have cars and houses.

GIVE ME BACK MY COUNTRY!
 
2011-02-21 11:55:53 AM
We really don't need to compete with the private sector for decent employees. We expect a trip to the county hall or DMV to suck, why leave us happily surprised with a modicum of competence?
 
2011-02-21 11:56:25 AM
Wikipedia:

The Economic Policy Institute is a "nonpartisan but progressive" non-profit American think tank...

EPI notes that it offers policy recommendations "with the goal of influencing policy makers to adopt policies that are good for working people."...

In 2009, EPI argued that a higher minimum wage rate would benefit low-income working families and help boost consumer spending and the economy...

In 2005, the Bush Administration and its allies in Congress mounted a campaign to privatize Social Security. EPI joined forces with other progressive groups and organized labor to oppose this effort...

During the 2009 debate on Health care reform in the United States some union interests attacked proposals to replace the employer tax exclusion with a tax deduction that would apply to all Americans (not just those who enjoy the good employer benefits provided to many union members) including the Healthy Americans Act bill sponsored by Senator Ron Wyden. The EPI supported the perspective of these union interests in a series of reports, which provoked criticism from independent progressives...


Biased source is biased.
 
2011-02-21 11:59:38 AM

R.A.Danny: We really don't need to compete with the private sector for decent employees. We expect a trip to the county hall or DMV to suck, why leave us happily surprised with a modicum of competence?


I was at the BMV Saturday. The employees were pleasant, quick, and extremely professional. I've never had a bad experience at the BMV. I also work with the city and state governments a lot for my education/work. They're all extremely competent, professional, and nice to work with.
 
2011-02-21 12:07:02 PM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: I was at the BMV Saturday. The employees were pleasant, quick, and extremely professional. I've never had a bad experience at the BMV.


That's been my experience every time too. I wonder if Indiana is particulary good at that.
 
2011-02-21 12:14:56 PM

ne2d: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: I was at the BMV Saturday. The employees were pleasant, quick, and extremely professional. I've never had a bad experience at the BMV.

That's been my experience every time too. I wonder if Indiana is particulary good at that.


I lived in San Diego while I was in the Navy, and going to the DMV sucked. I live in Northern NJ now, and my trips to the MVC have been quick and pleasant. Maybe it's a regional thing.
 
2011-02-21 12:15:47 PM
hmmm... who to trust... facts, or Gary?
 
wee [TotalFark]
2011-02-21 12:16:04 PM
It's not the paychecks, it's the pensions that are going to be our downfall.
 
2011-02-21 12:17:37 PM
playblu
Biased source is biased.

Produce evidence that their data is wrong or go fark yourself.
 
2011-02-21 12:26:37 PM

ne2d: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: I was at the BMV Saturday. The employees were pleasant, quick, and extremely professional. I've never had a bad experience at the BMV.

That's been my experience every time too. I wonder if Indiana is particulary good at that.


The only time that I was not in-and-out of the BMV in under 30 minutes was when I turned 16. Also, most of the stuff that I regularly have to go to a branch to complete I can do online now.
 
2011-02-21 12:31:14 PM

wee: It's not the paychecks, it's the pensions that are going to be our downfall.


And the teachers union in Wisconsin has offered to negotiate. But the governor isn't interested. And if the pensions are the real worry...why exclude fire/police/state troopers? If public sector unions=bad/budget busting then there should be NO exceptions.
 
2011-02-21 12:43:00 PM
They mostly have ed degrees which are not as valuable or difficult to get as other degrees. They also don't work the same hours per year as most people who have a degree and work. If you calculate their per hour pay I'll bet it is a lot higher than the average.
 
2011-02-21 12:50:34 PM

ace in your face: They mostly have ed degrees which are not as valuable or difficult to get as other degrees. They also don't work the same hours per year as most people who have a degree and work. If you calculate their per hour pay I'll bet it is a lot higher than the average.


How many teachers do you know? I mean, personally? I do not know a SINGLE teacher who doesn't work more than 40+ hours/week. And in their "summers off" they usually take some sort of continuing ed class. And most of the teachers I know have masters in education as well as the subject they teach. Of course...they are primarily HS teachers. My sons went to public schools...there advanced math and science teachers all had doctorates. Their favorite history teacher had a masters in American History. Those folk were teaching because they loved to teach. And they were good at it.
 
2011-02-21 01:03:27 PM

mjsee: ace in your face: They mostly have ed degrees which are not as valuable or difficult to get as other degrees. They also don't work the same hours per year as most people who have a degree and work. If you calculate their per hour pay I'll bet it is a lot higher than the average.

How many teachers do you know? I mean, personally? I do not know a SINGLE teacher who doesn't work more than 40+ hours/week. And in their "summers off" they usually take some sort of continuing ed class. And most of the teachers I know have masters in education as well as the subject they teach. Of course...they are primarily HS teachers. My sons went to public schools...there advanced math and science teachers all had doctorates. Their favorite history teacher had a masters in American History. Those folk were teaching because they loved to teach. And they were good at it.


I have 15 family members that are teachers and several friends. I KNOW they don't work as many hours a year as pretty much every other person I know (especially those in the military).

Have you ever taken an Ed class or met anyone who is majoring in it in college? Simpletons. Even their masters program is simple. The only decent teachers I have met were NOT ed majors and did it despite the fact they could make more doing other jobs which at that point becomes a personal choice to make less money.
 
2011-02-21 01:18:57 PM

ace in your face: mjsee: ace in your face: They mostly have ed degrees which are not as valuable or difficult to get as other degrees. They also don't work the same hours per year as most people who have a degree and work. If you calculate their per hour pay I'll bet it is a lot higher than the average.

How many teachers do you know? I mean, personally? I do not know a SINGLE teacher who doesn't work more than 40+ hours/week. And in their "summers off" they usually take some sort of continuing ed class. And most of the teachers I know have masters in education as well as the subject they teach. Of course...they are primarily HS teachers. My sons went to public schools...there advanced math and science teachers all had doctorates. Their favorite history teacher had a masters in American History. Those folk were teaching because they loved to teach. And they were good at it.

I have 15 family members that are teachers and several friends. I KNOW they don't work as many hours a year as pretty much every other person I know (especially those in the military).

Have you ever taken an Ed class or met anyone who is majoring in it in college? Simpletons. Even their masters program is simple. The only decent teachers I have met were NOT ed majors and did it despite the fact they could make more doing other jobs which at that point becomes a personal choice to make less money.


Nice to know you hold even members of your own family in such low esteem.
 
2011-02-21 01:19:44 PM
I thought the conventional wisdom was that public sector workers are paid a little bit less, but have very good job security.
 
2011-02-21 01:21:54 PM

ace in your face: Have you ever taken an Ed class or met anyone who is majoring in it in college? Simpletons. Even their masters program is simple. The only decent teachers I have met were NOT ed majors and did it despite the fact they could make more doing other jobs which at that point becomes a personal choice to make less money.


Let me guess - your associates are elementary ed?

/former education major
//you're talking above you level here paco
 
2011-02-21 01:25:47 PM

propasaurus: ace in your face: mjsee: ace in your face: They mostly have ed degrees which are not as valuable or difficult to get as other degrees. They also don't work the same hours per year as most people who have a degree and work. If you calculate their per hour pay I'll bet it is a lot higher than the average.

How many teachers do you know? I mean, personally? I do not know a SINGLE teacher who doesn't work more than 40+ hours/week. And in their "summers off" they usually take some sort of continuing ed class. And most of the teachers I know have masters in education as well as the subject they teach. Of course...they are primarily HS teachers. My sons went to public schools...there advanced math and science teachers all had doctorates. Their favorite history teacher had a masters in American History. Those folk were teaching because they loved to teach. And they were good at it.

I have 15 family members that are teachers and several friends. I KNOW they don't work as many hours a year as pretty much every other person I know (especially those in the military).

Have you ever taken an Ed class or met anyone who is majoring in it in college? Simpletons. Even their masters program is simple. The only decent teachers I have met were NOT ed majors and did it despite the fact they could make more doing other jobs which at that point becomes a personal choice to make less money.

Nice to know you hold even members of your own family in such low esteem.


Not in low esteem, but I don't consider everyone in my family a genius if that's what you mean. Some fall into the "choose to be teachers despite a degree in Math/Engineering/Law/Forestry etc." and I respect a great deal and some are just fat dumb teachers like you find at any public school.

/Why are teachers such fatties anyway?
 
2011-02-21 01:27:34 PM

LasersHurt: ace in your face: Have you ever taken an Ed class or met anyone who is majoring in it in college? Simpletons. Even their masters program is simple. The only decent teachers I have met were NOT ed majors and did it despite the fact they could make more doing other jobs which at that point becomes a personal choice to make less money.

Let me guess - your associates are elementary ed?

/former education major
//you're talking above you level here paco


No, not all. Your lack of capitalization doesn't surprise me btw.
 
2011-02-21 01:31:34 PM
ace in your face
They mostly have ed degrees which are not as valuable or difficult to get as other degrees. They also don't work the same hours per year as most people who have a degree and work. If you calculate their per hour pay I'll bet it is a lot higher than the average.

I find it hard to believe that you have all these teachers for family members, yet so clearly have no farking clue what you're talking about. I have teachers in the family too and 40 hour weeks are a fantasy. It's almost always more. Your view that education degrees are for simpletons is just as idiotic as everything else you've posted in this thread.

They mostly have ed degrees which are not as valuable or difficult to get as other degrees.

100% pure, unadulterated bullshiat. Go fark yourself.
 
2011-02-21 01:34:11 PM

patrick767: ace in your face
They mostly have ed degrees which are not as valuable or difficult to get as other degrees. They also don't work the same hours per year as most people who have a degree and work. If you calculate their per hour pay I'll bet it is a lot higher than the average.

I find it hard to believe that you have all these teachers for family members, yet so clearly have no farking clue what you're talking about. I have teachers in the family too and 40 hour weeks are a fantasy. It's almost always more. Your view that education degrees are for simpletons is just as idiotic as everything else you've posted in this thread.

They mostly have ed degrees which are not as valuable or difficult to get as other degrees.

100% pure, unadulterated bullshiat. Go fark yourself.


Guess they didn't teach you emotional stability...
 
2011-02-21 01:46:43 PM
ace in your face
Guess they didn't teach you emotional stability...

I'm fine, just pissed off at people like yourself who keep shiatting on teachers. The only thing your ignorant screeds are missing is the fool's declaration that "those who can't, teach". Har har.

It's extremely obvious that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Teaching is a difficult job to do well and it's extremely important. Do your supposed 15 family and friends in education suck at their jobs? Something has given you a delusional, idiotically negative view of the profession, but the fact is that there are a lot of good teachers out there who bust their asses. They routinely work much more than 40 hours a week. Curriculums and lesson plans don't write themselves. Papers don't grade themselves. There are bad performers in any field, but many teachers are well-educated and hard working.
 
2011-02-21 01:50:47 PM
The elephant in the room:

i55.tinypic.com

How about you try to improve collective bargaining conditions at *YOUR* workplace instead of pissing, moaning, and trying to drag down the ones that are being fairly compensated.

/if you weren't being hosed in your non-unionized private sector job, you wouldn't be complaining
//equal. bargaining. power.
/fundamental tenet of economics and contract law
 
2011-02-21 01:54:18 PM
You trade job stability for slightly less pay. I was under the impression everyone in the public sector knew this?
 
2011-02-21 02:01:58 PM

patrick767: ace in your face
Guess they didn't teach you emotional stability...

I'm fine, just pissed off at people like yourself who keep shiatting on teachers. The only thing your ignorant screeds are missing is the fool's declaration that "those who can't, teach". Har har.

It's extremely obvious that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Teaching is a difficult job to do well and it's extremely important. Do your supposed 15 family and friends in education suck at their jobs? Something has given you a delusional, idiotically negative view of the profession, but the fact is that there are a lot of good teachers out there who bust their asses. They routinely work much more than 40 hours a week. Curriculums and lesson plans don't write themselves. Papers don't grade themselves. There are bad performers in any field, but many teachers are well-educated and hard working.


Even if teachers worked 40 hours per week they still don't work as many hours per year.
 
2011-02-21 02:05:09 PM

LasersHurt: /former education major
//you're talking above you level here paco


Argueing that "Education" is anything but a Mrs. Degree doesn't hold any water. Not that there aren't some people who really just want to be a teacher, but that doesn't mean the classes aren't a joke.
 
2011-02-21 02:15:50 PM

ne2d: I thought the conventional wisdom was that public sector workers are paid a little bit less, but have very good job security.


The main reason being the employer is relatively unlikely to go out of business. Higher benefits along with lower salary is another relatively standard trade-off.
 
2011-02-21 02:18:34 PM

Thoguh: LasersHurt: /former education major
//you're talking above you level here paco

Argueing that "Education" is anything but a Mrs. Degree doesn't hold any water. Not that there aren't some people who really just want to be a teacher, but that doesn't mean the classes aren't a joke.


I'm sorry, but this is stupid. Maybe it varies from school to school, or what program you're in, but our classload was, you know, real work. You had to know your subject matter.

/unless you're talking elementary ed
 
2011-02-21 02:21:07 PM
That's been my experience every time too. I wonder if Indiana is particulary good at that...I lived in San Diego while I was in the Navy, and going to the DMV sucked. I live in Northern NJ now, and my trips to the MVC have been quick and pleasant. Maybe it's a regional thing.

DMV in Michigan, North Dakota, Oklahoma and Iowa was great. Even in the large cities like Detroit and Tulsa.

California was awful, but the worst is AZ. I waited over 4 hours in a Phoenix DMV, most of it standing in a line. I read an entire scholarly book with footnotes (new window) for graduate school while there that day.
 
2011-02-21 02:26:37 PM

ace in your face: I have 15 family members that are teachers and several friends. I KNOW they don't work as many hours a year as pretty much every other person I know (especially those in the military).


Every teacher I've known does not work as many hours as the average professional. Maybe you consider the afterhours grading homework, but that's sort of simple work you can do in front of the TV or at a bar even if so inclined.

And indeed, most of them take the full summer off and don't take classes in the summer. Maybe younger teachers do... but I'm thinking your average 35-40 year old does not.

This isn't a bad thing. I respect most of the teachers I know, and most of them are doing a good job and really do care about the kids.

But just for the sake of getting the facts straight, thems the facts.
 
2011-02-21 02:27:44 PM

Somacandra: DMV in Michigan, North Dakota, Oklahoma and Iowa was great. Even in the large cities like Detroit and Tulsa.

California was awful, but the worst is AZ. I waited over 4 hours in a Phoenix DMV, most of it standing in a line. I read an entire scholarly book with footnotes (new window) for graduate school while there that day


Come on down and register a car in New Orleans. You'll want to bring an entire library of books if thats what you do to pass the time.
 
2011-02-21 02:29:18 PM

ace in your face: LasersHurt: ace in your face: Have you ever taken an Ed class or met anyone who is majoring in it in college? Simpletons. Even their masters program is simple. The only decent teachers I have met were NOT ed majors and did it despite the fact they could make more doing other jobs which at that point becomes a personal choice to make less money.

Let me guess - your associates are elementary ed?

/former education major
//you're talking above you level here paco

No, not all. Your lack of capitalization doesn't surprise me btw.


If the classes were cakewalks, they went to a shiatty university. There's nothing more to it - a decent education program will make you work for your degree, and you owe it to yourself and your future students to work hard at it. If it was a gimme degree, your associates went to a shiatty university.
 
2011-02-21 02:30:07 PM
As a state employee, I've already endured pay cuts, mandated furlough days and a year long hiatus in employer contributions to my retirement. Last year I had to take a second job for three months in another city to make ends meet for my family for a time. So don't try to tell me we're overpaid and underworked. fark anyone who bloody well thinks that.
 
2011-02-21 02:30:20 PM

downstairs: Every teacher I've known


Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
 
2011-02-21 02:41:20 PM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: R.A.Danny: We really don't need to compete with the private sector for decent employees. We expect a trip to the county hall or DMV to suck, why leave us happily surprised with a modicum of competence?

I was at the BMV Saturday. The employees were pleasant, quick, and extremely professional. I've never had a bad experience at the BMV. I also work with the city and state governments a lot for my education/work. They're all extremely competent, professional, and nice to work with.


The Indiana BMV as notoriously awful. Service sucked. They'd screw up your paperwork. And it was usually a 3+ hour wait. Then a Republican governor came on the scene. He agreed to the budget expense that revamped the system and brought the computers into the 21st century. The system was down intermittently for 6 months...making service even worse. Then presto. Once it was fully operational and functioning, the BMV became the model of government service and efficiency from online renewals, to no lines for in person service. And all with fewer employees and fewer locations.

I didn't think it could be done. I was wrong. Now the BMV is, if not fun, tolerable.
 
2011-02-21 02:44:13 PM

IdBeCrazyIf: You trade job stability for slightly less pay. I was under the impression everyone in the public sector knew this?


Less pay, but they get job stability and better insurance.
 
2011-02-21 02:48:59 PM

I_C_Weener: Less pay, but they get job stability and better insurance.


Not always on the insurance part. It varies from state to state, but I know personally on the federal level, you have to be a direct employee of a program to qualify for the health insurance buy in.
 
2011-02-21 02:59:19 PM

playblu: Wikipedia:

The Economic Policy Institute is a "nonpartisan but progressive" non-profit American think tank...

EPI notes that it offers policy recommendations "with the goal of influencing policy makers to adopt policies that are good for working people."...

In 2009, EPI argued that a higher minimum wage rate would benefit low-income working families and help boost consumer spending and the economy...

In 2005, the Bush Administration and its allies in Congress mounted a campaign to privatize Social Security. EPI joined forces with other progressive groups and organized labor to oppose this effort...

During the 2009 debate on Health care reform in the United States some union interests attacked proposals to replace the employer tax exclusion with a tax deduction that would apply to all Americans (not just those who enjoy the good employer benefits provided to many union members) including the Healthy Americans Act bill sponsored by Senator Ron Wyden. The EPI supported the perspective of these union interests in a series of reports, which provoked criticism from independent progressives...

Biased source is biased.


and conservative talking points are based on 100% irrefutable fact
 
2011-02-21 03:02:36 PM

IdBeCrazyIf: I_C_Weener: Less pay, but they get job stability and better insurance.

Not always on the insurance part. It varies from state to state, but I know personally on the federal level, you have to be a direct employee of a program to qualify for the health insurance buy in.


I think Indiana state employees, and most county employees get better and cheaper insurance than Federal employees.
 
2011-02-21 03:04:20 PM

Hender: downstairs: Every teacher I've known

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.


Of course. I didn't claim to do a fully funded study.
 
2011-02-21 03:25:17 PM

I_C_Weener: I think Indiana state employees, and most county employees get better and cheaper insurance than Federal employees.


Yes they do. The state gets around it though by sponsoring field offices for specific programs, much in the same way HUD has Housing Authorities manage their programs. They end up technically being private like contractors. Private entities who classify for 513 status because 100% of their money is federally derived.

I like in a very bizzare world in the public sector.
 
2011-02-21 03:56:16 PM

ace in your face: propasaurus: ace in your face: mjsee: ace in your face: They mostly have ed degrees which are not as valuable or difficult to get as other degrees. They also don't work the same hours per year as most people who have a degree and work. If you calculate their per hour pay I'll bet it is a lot higher than the average.

How many teachers do you know? I mean, personally? I do not know a SINGLE teacher who doesn't work more than 40+ hours/week. And in their "summers off" they usually take some sort of continuing ed class. And most of the teachers I know have masters in education as well as the subject they teach. Of course...they are primarily HS teachers. My sons went to public schools...there advanced math and science teachers all had doctorates. Their favorite history teacher had a masters in American History. Those folk were teaching because they loved to teach. And they were good at it.

I have 15 family members that are teachers and several friends. I KNOW they don't work as many hours a year as pretty much every other person I know (especially those in the military).

Have you ever taken an Ed class or met anyone who is majoring in it in college? Simpletons. Even their masters program is simple. The only decent teachers I have met were NOT ed majors and did it despite the fact they could make more doing other jobs which at that point becomes a personal choice to make less money.

Nice to know you hold even members of your own family in such low esteem.

Not in low esteem, but I don't consider everyone in my family a genius if that's what you mean. Some fall into the "choose to be teachers despite a degree in Math/Engineering/Law/Forestry etc." and I respect a great deal and some are just fat dumb teachers like you find at any public school.

/Why are teachers such fatties anyway?


Oh! So you're just an asshole, then. Got it.
 
2011-02-21 04:04:01 PM

propasaurus: ace in your face: propasaurus: ace in your face: mjsee: ace in your face: They mostly have ed degrees which are not as valuable or difficult to get as other degrees. They also don't work the same hours per year as most people who have a degree and work. If you calculate their per hour pay I'll bet it is a lot higher than the average.

How many teachers do you know? I mean, personally? I do not know a SINGLE teacher who doesn't work more than 40+ hours/week. And in their "summers off" they usually take some sort of continuing ed class. And most of the teachers I know have masters in education as well as the subject they teach. Of course...they are primarily HS teachers. My sons went to public schools...there advanced math and science teachers all had doctorates. Their favorite history teacher had a masters in American History. Those folk were teaching because they loved to teach. And they were good at it.

I have 15 family members that are teachers and several friends. I KNOW they don't work as many hours a year as pretty much every other person I know (especially those in the military).

Have you ever taken an Ed class or met anyone who is majoring in it in college? Simpletons. Even their masters program is simple. The only decent teachers I have met were NOT ed majors and did it despite the fact they could make more doing other jobs which at that point becomes a personal choice to make less money.

Nice to know you hold even members of your own family in such low esteem.

Not in low esteem, but I don't consider everyone in my family a genius if that's what you mean. Some fall into the "choose to be teachers despite a degree in Math/Engineering/Law/Forestry etc." and I respect a great deal and some are just fat dumb teachers like you find at any public school.

/Why are teachers such fatties anyway?

Oh! So you're just an asshole, then. Got it.


You sound fat.

/Oblig
 
2011-02-21 04:04:30 PM
DAILY
1.bp.blogspot.com
Kos
 
2011-02-21 04:51:00 PM
Your blog sucks.
 
2011-02-21 04:55:26 PM

gameshowhost: The elephant in the room:



How about you try to improve collective bargaining conditions at *YOUR* workplace instead of pissing, moaning, and trying to drag down the ones that are being fairly compensated.

/if you weren't being hosed in your non-unionized private sector job, you wouldn't be complaining
//equal. bargaining. power.
/fundamental tenet of economics and contract law


That chart is meaningless.
 
2011-02-21 04:56:03 PM

Somacandra: As a state employee, I've already endured pay cuts, mandated furlough days and a year long hiatus in employer contributions to my retirement. Last year I had to take a second job for three months in another city to make ends meet for my family for a time. So don't try to tell me we're overpaid and underworked. fark anyone who bloody well thinks that.


Um, welcome to the rest of the country? Do you think that you should be exempt from feeling the consequences of the economic downturn simply because you're a State employee?

A year long haitus in employer contributions to your retirement? Do you know how many people go without this perk FOR YEARS? Some people don't even have access to this perk that you are moaning about.
 
2011-02-21 04:56:53 PM
When I looked at government jobs they all paid about 30% worse with the same benefits.
 
2011-02-21 04:58:20 PM
I won't be happy until there are only 5 people left in the world who can afford to eat more than once every other day.
 
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