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(Daily Kos)   You know the conventional wisdom that public sector employees are overpaid leeches? Yeah, about that   (dailykos.com) divider line 586
    More: Interesting, conventional wisdom, Economic Policy Institute, oligarchy, public sector, Daily Kos, nephew-in-law  
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6238 clicks; posted to Politics » on 21 Feb 2011 at 4:48 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-02-21 07:15:00 PM  

clusterfrak: To all of the tea party FARKers, WHY?? Why do you want the poor to be crushed by the wealthy?


Because a return to feudalism is much more cheap and economically viable.
 
2011-02-21 07:15:24 PM  

Corn_Fed: The graph you gave only measures from 1995. Why not from the early 1970's? Why not from 1959, like the graph I linked to?


Almost universally, graphs from such sources tend to go back as far as the data exists for it. It's very, very common to wade through Fed data and see that key pieces of data first started to be measured in the 1990s.

The EPI is obviously using a different data set. Probably one that goes back to 1959.

Because that would tell a very different story...

Feel free then to go to my CBO source. It goes back to the 1970s, and it explains the data in far far more ways using many more dimensions. And it has the nice benefit of coming from a nonpartisan source.
 
2011-02-21 07:15:27 PM  

vernonFL: birdboy2000: While we've been busy internet arguing, the workers of Wisconsin have been protesting

And schools are closed and work is not getting done.


Remember that next time teacher's unions say how much they care about the children.
 
2011-02-21 07:16:04 PM  

ragekage: Wow. Nobody bothered to answer my question, except for a guy who said I should gladly take a pay cut to handle tougher medical work. I guess he's all for cutting pay for anesthesiologists, too.


It's the price the market will bear.
 
2011-02-21 07:16:48 PM  

LasersHurt: ace in your face: Have you ever taken an Ed class or met anyone who is majoring in it in college? Simpletons. Even their masters program is simple. The only decent teachers I have met were NOT ed majors and did it despite the fact they could make more doing other jobs which at that point becomes a personal choice to make less money.

Let me guess - your associates are elementary ed?

/former education major
//you're talking above you level here paco


HAHA, as if a teacher or education major has ANY intellectual high-ground. You are a walking example of the entitlement mindset.
 
2011-02-21 07:16:49 PM  

sard: I think the US needs to rethink the way it's teaching math and science right now, but I'm all for getting qualified teachers in there. It's hard to find people who really know a technical field and are good teachers. If we want those people to actually become teachers, we need to pay them a lot more. Unions won't let good math/science teachers be paid much more than liberal arts teachers, though. Specifically, we're pushing towards an overabundance of mediocre math/science teachers and an overabundance of early ed/liberal arts teachers.


Which sounds suspiciously like my field is awesome and everyone else sucks.

I strongly advocate completely open borders (and outsourcing, if it makes sense.) If some random software developer in India can competently do my job for 1/10th the price, I'm overpaid. As companies have painfully discovered over the last decade, though, good luck with that.


Even if they don't it still lowers the value of people in that profession. You can ask the technical people who thought they were one of a kind who are now collecting unemployment.
 
2011-02-21 07:17:49 PM  

vonster: No, but I'm sure they're still using Hitler comparisons and crosshairs - even though libs never do that.


Still grasping at strawmen, I see.
 
2011-02-21 07:17:57 PM  
Hai guys! What's going on in this thread? Everyone being calm and rational? Just checking. OKTHXBAI.
 
2011-02-21 07:18:24 PM  
Oh sh*t. I quoted the troll.
 
2011-02-21 07:18:24 PM  

helix400:

Wait wait wait, if wages have stagnated, how does that mean our buying power is less? And lower quality of life? You're turning an apple into an orange on this.

And lower quality of life? Wages alone aren't quality of life my friend. That's why total compensation is frequently used.

Over the last three decades we are wealthier, we're compensated more, we have bigger homes, we travel more, we fly more, we have access to far better healthcare, better education, better communication, cars are safer, crime is down, pollution is down, and we have access to things that didn't even exist in the prior generation (i.e. cell phones, the web), etc.

And you're trying to argue our quality of life is worse?


I won't argue crime, communication, pollution (for some areas, anyway), etc.

And I already conceded that electronics are cheaper, mostly across the board.

But in terms of the most important, significant costs in a middle-class life, which are housing and health insurance, they are far, far higher relative to inflation than a generation ago, in the early 70's.

Combine that with stagnating wages, and you have a middle-class that is less able to live at the standard their parents did. They are less able to afford housing, and less able to weather a significant medical need--both more intrinsic to quality of life than some new electronic gizmo.

Further, the middle-class itself is shrinking from a generation ago, with the difference dropping into "working-class." This has occurred with middle-class jobs like manufacturing transitioning into a more service-oriented economy, with lower wages.
 
2011-02-21 07:18:56 PM  

ace in your face: Mentat: ace in your face: They mostly have ed degrees which are not as valuable or difficult to get as other degrees. They also don't work the same hours per year as most people who have a degree and work. If you calculate their per hour pay I'll bet it is a lot higher than the average.

$30K and year is $30K a year whether you work 9 months or 12.

I can't believe I have to explain to you what an hourly salary breakdown is. Teachers are paid a salary, they are not paid by the hour. Similarly most jobs for those with degrees are also paid by salary not by the hour. Should either of those jobs have their salary broken down to how much each is paid by the hour teachers would come out pretty darn well. Is that so hard to understand?


Yes, moron, I understand that. I calculated my hourly wages once in grad school and I was making more per hour than my parents. It still only amounted to $15K a year. No one cares what the hourly wage is for salary employees. $30K per year is $30K per year. It doesn't matter how it's distributed, on April 15 it's counted as $30K.
 
2011-02-21 07:20:39 PM  
The drive up in public sector employee wages is the double (sometimes triple and quad) dipping that takes place. Handle those public workers that "retire" at 55, pull their full pension, get rehired at the same wage they left at and then get a second pension for their troubles.

So yes, entry level sucks same as the private sector.
 
2011-02-21 07:21:11 PM  

Skleenar: That's the immediate effect on premiums, and the cost control measures are intended to control the long-term cost growth over time.


I don't have the sources handy, but I've seen this question tackled from two different approaches. Both approaches had that the long term effects would either make health care prices about the same or 1-2% cheaper than what they would have been without the reform.

But you're right, it's hard to compare this. One is measuring how much we have to pay as a result of legislation. Another is measuring how much costs will go up. The take home message I've get is that if we have to pay 1-2% more on account of the reform, and if costs may go down 1-2%, then ultimately, it sounds like a wash. And if it's not a wash, it's so insignificantly small that it's a non-factor.

This means the health care reform isn't going to do anything to substantially reduce costs to any meaningful degree.

Anyway, I've love to stay, but I've got a huge project due Thursday. Need to keep working on it. Sorry to anyone else that I don't reply to. It was nice this thread was at least driven by having correct info, and not just annoying random partisan assertions.
 
2011-02-21 07:21:18 PM  

Penman: ragekage: Wow. Nobody bothered to answer my question, except for a guy who said I should gladly take a pay cut to handle tougher medical work. I guess he's all for cutting pay for anesthesiologists, too.

It's the price the market will bear.


Uh huh, that's right. But it's trying to be affected artificially here by Governor Walker. Read my Boobies.
 
2011-02-21 07:22:19 PM  

Mentat: ace in your face: Mentat: ace in your face: They mostly have ed degrees which are not as valuable or difficult to get as other degrees. They also don't work the same hours per year as most people who have a degree and work. If you calculate their per hour pay I'll bet it is a lot higher than the average.

$30K and year is $30K a year whether you work 9 months or 12.

I can't believe I have to explain to you what an hourly salary breakdown is. Teachers are paid a salary, they are not paid by the hour. Similarly most jobs for those with degrees are also paid by salary not by the hour. Should either of those jobs have their salary broken down to how much each is paid by the hour teachers would come out pretty darn well. Is that so hard to understand?

Yes, moron, I understand that. I calculated my hourly wages once in grad school and I was making more per hour than my parents. It still only amounted to $15K a year. No one cares what the hourly wage is for salary employees. $30K per year is $30K per year. It doesn't matter how it's distributed, on April 15 it's counted as $30K.


Right, and they have extra days/months to make up that "missing" salary if they want to. Most don't though, they would rather hang out at the beach.
 
2011-02-21 07:22:36 PM  

vernonFL: Just raising taxes isn't the solution, either.

For example, I live in the city with some of the higest taxes in the country. The 4th highest, actually.

You would think that the city with the 4th highest taxes in the country would have excellent schools and safe streets, right?

I live in Baltimore.


Of course, every city is different, raising taxes is no more a magical cure then lowering taxes. If Baltimore has high taxes and shiatty services then clearly there is an issue that needs to be corrected in Baltimore. But trying to apply the same logic to a different city, lets say Fresno is not wise.

Fresno may very well need higher taxes to fix its problems. (Fresno is just an example, this may not apply to Fresno)
 
2011-02-21 07:23:25 PM  

HowDareYouCallMeAHoser: KOS and their source trimmed Less than high school, Some college, and Associate's to be dicks.


That doesn't change the validity of the chart. The chart represents the data for the stated education levels. For each stated level it is accurate.

Corn_Fed: Because that would tell a very different story...


It would, a bit, but not all that much. Because it's a chart showing spending on consumption, it doesn't show the same thing that a chart that factors in inflation shows.

helix400: If you have another source, feel free to send it over.


Income, by several percentiles, from 1967 to 2003 measured in constant 2003 dollars

upload.wikimedia.org

Note the bottom three lines, which measure, from top to bottom, the bottom 50 percent, 20 percent and 10 percent of income earners, are near flat or entirely flat. Which means that if you're in the bottom 50 percent of income earners, you might have seen your real income increase a bit, though not much. If you're the bottom ten percent? Then you've seen no real growth. If you're the top 5 percent of income earners, then since 1967 you've seen your real income increase by 80% and change. If you're in the top 20 percent of income earners, then you're income has grown by about one third. Of course, this includes the gains of those in the top 5 percent. So if you're just barely in the top 20 percent, your gains may not actually be so much.
 
2011-02-21 07:23:30 PM  

Corn_Fed: Further, the middle-class itself is shrinking from a generation ago, with the difference dropping into "working-class." This has occurred with middle-class jobs like manufacturing transitioning into a more service-oriented economy, with lower wages.


Well at some point, the economy will improve. Probably when businesses gain confidence and start hiring, because they know their taxes won't be suddenly raised.
 
2011-02-21 07:24:34 PM  

The Fourth Karamazov: ne2d: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: I was at the BMV Saturday. The employees were pleasant, quick, and extremely professional. I've never had a bad experience at the BMV.

That's been my experience every time too. I wonder if Indiana is particulary good at that.

I lived in San Diego while I was in the Navy, and going to the DMV sucked. I live in Northern NJ now, and my trips to the MVC have been quick and pleasant. Maybe it's a regional thing.


You know how I know you moved to New Jersey within the last 10 years. It used to be a nightmare. Now it's practically a dream compared to how it used to be.
 
2011-02-21 07:25:02 PM  

Scerpes: Illinois has a history of underfunding their pension plan, don't they? I mean, it's been a lot longer than just a couple of years.


Yep.

helix400: Wages + benefits have been increasing nicely over the last decade.


Surely some of that is just reflecting the increased cost of health care premiums though?

I mean, it used to be (decades ago) that any big company offered a pension - it's what hordes of retirees are living off of now. Now hardly anywhere outside of the public sector does, and the public sector is cutting back hard on that for new hires (particularly for non-unionized jobs - not all public sector jobs are unionized, far from it).

Scerpes: Governments should honor their current obligations, and change plans going forward. That may mean you earn half your pension under plan A and the rest under a new plan B.


Sorry but that's not how it works.

You can implement plan B for NEW HIRES, and in fact Illinois has just done that.

The states might be kicking themselves for signing generous contracts in past years, but they signed 'em - so they're stuck with those terms, exactly as anyone else signing a contract is stuck with it, exactly how private companies too are still paying out pensions to long-time employees too.

...which is why absolutely they're trying to never sign contracts with those kinds of terms AGAIN, but they're stuck with the current people.

WhyteRaven74: I know that it's just the last two years where there have been no payments at all by the state to the plan. There have been some issues at times in the past, but flat out not contributing is just in the last two years.


Hell, the state is flat out not even paying its BILLS anymore - and demanding takebacks on the amount it did pay, on top of it. They take forever to come out with the budget, but when they do, we still can't plan, because we have to consider that we'll be asked to give back 15% later on in the year. It's insane.

At least they finally passed the tax increase... if only they can get rid of the flat tax idiocy they might get some more benefit. As it is, any discussion of increasing revenue has people screaming about how it will hurt the poor, because since 1970 it's been a flat tax mandated by the state constitution. Any sane system will have a way to exempt people on the bottom, so they can't be used as pawns in the cheap game.
 
2011-02-21 07:25:35 PM  

ragekage: It's the price the market will bear.

Uh huh, that's right. But it's trying to be affected artificially here by Governor Walker. Read my Boobies.


Right. Because unions don't artificially inflate the market by negotiating higher salaries and better benefits.
 
2011-02-21 07:25:45 PM  
reason.com

He seems like a reasonable fellow.
 
2011-02-21 07:26:18 PM  
I think the CA Prisons Guard Union is a good example of why states have some problems.

1. Republicans find law and order as an effective strategy to win political power.
2. Create laws to put more people in prison for longer periods of time
3. Does not raise taxes, but create bond issues to build new prisons
4. Prisons are built in undesirable locations (NIMBYism)
5. Hire armies of prison guards at prime premiums and overtime due to poor location, long hours, and difficult work conditions.
5. Pay to house, feed, and care for worlds largest prison population
6. Create underfunded pension entitlements for people who will work the absolute minimum number of years, collect lifelong pension from 45 years old, and get new job in private sector.

Republicans answer to problem: Destroy the unions.
 
2011-02-21 07:26:47 PM  

itazurakko: Any sane system will have a way to exempt people on the bottom, so they can't be used as pawns in the cheap game.


Why should people on the bottom get out of paying their fair share? They already pay less than everyone else, we shouldn't give any more incentive to be lazy.
 
2011-02-21 07:27:50 PM  

Penman: Corn_Fed: Further, the middle-class itself is shrinking from a generation ago, with the difference dropping into "working-class." This has occurred with middle-class jobs like manufacturing transitioning into a more service-oriented economy, with lower wages.

Well at some point, the economy will improve. Probably when businesses gain confidence and start hiring, because they know their taxes won't be suddenly raised.


You do know businesses are sitting on a record surplus of money and can easily weather any raise in taxes with an increase in profits from newly energized and employed workforce?
 
2011-02-21 07:29:05 PM  

Scerpes: WhyteRaven74: That comes down to what's required by the state and local school board. I know there are school districts around Chicago where if you want to teach high school, you pretty much have no prayer without a masters in the subject area you wish to teach.

Aren't those districts the exception and not the rule, though?


Varies from state to state. A few years ago, Texas was so hard up for teachers that they offered to accept anyone with a degree to teach. Some districts even offered to cover the cost to get certified.
 
2011-02-21 07:29:32 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Note the bottom three lines, which measure, from top to bottom, the bottom 50 percent, 20 percent and 10 percent of income earners, are near flat or entirely flat. Which means that if you're in the bottom 50 percent of income earners, you might have seen your real income increase a bit, though not much. If you're the bottom ten percent? Then you've seen no real growth. If you're the top 5 percent of income earners, then since 1967 you've seen your real income increase by 80% and change. If you're in the top 20 percent of income earners, then you're income has grown by about one third. Of course, this includes the gains of those in the top 5 percent. So if you're just barely in the top 20 percent, your gains may not actually be so much.


This, I think, really gets to the crux of things.

Tens of thousands of people don't march in a state capital because of pretend erosion of real wages.

And it's the erosion in real paychecks, not in a mythical "average" paycheck that matters--because that "average" paycheck is affected by the earnings of the top 2% who own as much as the bottom 50%.
 
2011-02-21 07:29:51 PM  
The people have spoken and elected a Republican.

Do the libs only like democracy when it favors their candidate and policies?


Remember when Obama said he won?

Suck it you hypocritical losers.

Wonder how my single malt would taste with a splash of your tears.
 
2011-02-21 07:30:32 PM  

clusterfrak: You do know businesses are sitting on a record surplus of money...


A mighty bold claim to make without a shred of proof to support it.
 
2011-02-21 07:30:33 PM  

itazurakko: Scerpes: Governments should honor their current obligations, and change plans going forward. That may mean you earn half your pension under plan A and the rest under a new plan B.

Sorry but that's not how it works.

You can implement plan B for NEW HIRES, and in fact Illinois has just done that.

The states might be kicking themselves for signing generous contracts in past years, but they signed 'em - so they're stuck with those terms, exactly as anyone else signing a contract is stuck with it, exactly how private companies too are still paying out pensions to long-time employees too.

...which is why absolutely they're trying to never sign contracts with those kinds of terms AGAIN, but they're stuck with the current people.


You don't know what you're talking about. Public employers can absolutely stop a pension plan tomorrow. They then place everyone (current employees and new hires) into a new plan.

You can't take away what the current employees earned in the first plan, but you're not obligated to continue kicking into that plan until they retire. Essentially, they are entitled (at retirement) to any vested benefits as of the date they stop the old plan. They then begin accruing future benefits under the new plan (presumably at a lower level).

There are a lot of states that have done just that, and many more that have considered it.
 
2011-02-21 07:30:54 PM  

Giltric: Wonder how my single malt would taste with a splash of your tears.


Dude, Mickey's sucks.
 
2011-02-21 07:30:54 PM  
Liberal BS is BS. Get off the Government Tit and Get to work
 
2011-02-21 07:30:59 PM  

Skleenar: Tens of thousands of people don't march in a state capital because of pretend erosion of real wages.


They march because their union got them out of work and it seems like a good time for a party. Guess who's picking up the tab?
 
2011-02-21 07:31:27 PM  

s1ugg0: The Fourth Karamazov: ne2d: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: I was at the BMV Saturday. The employees were pleasant, quick, and extremely professional. I've never had a bad experience at the BMV.

That's been my experience every time too. I wonder if Indiana is particulary good at that.

I lived in San Diego while I was in the Navy, and going to the DMV sucked. I live in Northern NJ now, and my trips to the MVC have been quick and pleasant. Maybe it's a regional thing.

You know how I know you moved to New Jersey within the last 10 years. It used to be a nightmare. Now it's practically a dream compared to how it used to be.


So did they privatize the BMV? I'm pretty sure anytime the government does something wrong its because the government is inherently bad. The only way you can fix it is with free market bootstraps.
 
2011-02-21 07:32:15 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Income, by several percentiles, from 1967 to 2003 measured in constant 2003 dollars


Nice, thanks. You went out and got the data I requested, so I'll make one more reply for you. (Then I really need to get back to my project).

Is that data per earner, or per household? If it's per household, then it needs to adjust for the trend that the number of people per household is going down. If it's per earner, then it looks very similar to what I posted here.

Real wages alone for the bottom has somewhat flatlined. But when you factor in all compensation, the bottom is still getting wealthier. See my CBO link I posted above.
 
2011-02-21 07:32:44 PM  

vernonFL: He seems like a reasonable fellow.


Looks like a teabagger instigator to me, note the flag jacket.
 
2011-02-21 07:32:48 PM  

Harry_Seldon: 4. Prisons are built in undesirable locations (NIMBYism)


Here in Illinois, towns FIGHT to win a prison. It's the only job left in so many places... and when the state starts talking about cuts, and decides to cut a PRISON, oh my, the wailing that comes up about "b...b...but our JERBS!!!!"

Prison-industrial complex, indeed.

Penman: Why should people on the bottom get out of paying their fair share? They already pay less than everyone else, we shouldn't give any more incentive to be lazy.


That sound you hear is the rest of the world laughing.

I stand by my assertion. The flat tax absolutely needs to go.
 
2011-02-21 07:32:50 PM  

Scerpes: ragekage: It's the price the market will bear.

Uh huh, that's right. But it's trying to be affected artificially here by Governor Walker. Read my Boobies.

Right. Because unions don't artificially inflate the market by negotiating higher salaries and better benefits.


Hell, no, I'd say that the health care system overall does that. Why d'you think there aren't any general practitioners any more? you want to complain about unions affecting what health care professionals are getting paid? You find someone to work at a State Prison or mental hospital for $12/hour, then.

and the same way with the Children's Hospital- alright, well, we'll get paid what the market can bear for the single mom whose kid develops a B-cell ALL. Guess we'll hafta gear up those death panels after all.
 
2011-02-21 07:33:03 PM  

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: R.A.Danny: We really don't need to compete with the private sector for decent employees. We expect a trip to the county hall or DMV to suck, why leave us happily surprised with a modicum of competence?

I was at the BMV Saturday. The employees were pleasant, quick, and extremely professional. I've never had a bad experience at the BMV. I also work with the city and state governments a lot for my education/work. They're all extremely competent, professional, and nice to work with.


Ditto. I commend the DMV workers for not shooting every single person who comes in there and asks the same idiotic questions and can't even follow basic directions, even when those are repeated to them five times. I could not possibly take that much shiat on a constant basis.

Also, the abuse that teachers take is incredible. That's not to say that the teachers' unions aren't corrupt, and that there are tons of layers of wasteful administrators, and that there aren't some lousy teachers, but the vast majority of them are doing a job that few of us could handle for more than a day or two. Between the children/teens with no discipline, the helicopter parents as well as the indifferent ones, and the political hacks who want to gut the teaching force so that they can institute their fundie brainwashing, they're in a vise.
 
2011-02-21 07:33:13 PM  

Skleenar: Tens of thousands of people don't march in a state capital because of pretend erosion of real wages.


They're marching because they were told to.
 
2011-02-21 07:33:22 PM  

Penman: They march because their union got them out of work and it seems like a good time for a party. Guess who's picking up the tab?


I realize you are just being flippant. But really, if this were the case, why wouldn't unions have their people marching every single time something they didn't like happened in the legislature?
 
2011-02-21 07:34:30 PM  

clusterfrak: Penman: Corn_Fed: Further, the middle-class itself is shrinking from a generation ago, with the difference dropping into "working-class." This has occurred with middle-class jobs like manufacturing transitioning into a more service-oriented economy, with lower wages.

Well at some point, the economy will improve. Probably when businesses gain confidence and start hiring, because they know their taxes won't be suddenly raised.

You do know businesses are sitting on a record surplus of money and can easily weather any raise in taxes with an increase in profits from newly energized and employed workforce?


I am also pretty sure taxes don't work in such a way that the government just shows up and goes "Taxes went up, give us 500,000 dollars!"

"Oh no" says the business man "I just hired 2 employees now I have to be broke and out of business! damn you Obama, Damn youse all to hell!"
 
2011-02-21 07:34:42 PM  
GoldSpider

clusterfrak: You do know businesses are sitting on a record surplus of money...

A mighty bold claim to make without a shred of proof to support it.


its the anybody but Obama, blame game

Unemployment stuck at 10%, find a business to bash

after all, we can't blame Obama who did it, after wasting a Trillion dollars
 
2011-02-21 07:34:48 PM  

Scerpes: You don't know what you're talking about. Public employers can absolutely stop a pension plan tomorrow. They then place everyone (current employees and new hires) into a new plan.


If they're unionized, they have to negotiate those things, though. And it depends on the exact terms they signed when they started the thing, not all states are the same.

At any rate, Illinois didn't go there, and they certainly have incentive. They were only able to slash it for the new hires.
 
2011-02-21 07:34:52 PM  

helix400: Real wages alone for the bottom has somewhat flatlined. But when you factor in all compensation, the bottom is still getting wealthier.


Having a larger and large amount of your paycheck essentially being a pass-through to health insurers really doesn't qualify as making you "wealthier".
 
2011-02-21 07:35:03 PM  

GoldSpider: Skleenar: Tens of thousands of people don't march in a state capital because of pretend erosion of real wages.

They're marching because they were told to.


Feel free to post the union memo that backs up your claim, circling the mandatory part in bright red plsthx.
 
2011-02-21 07:36:37 PM  

whidbey: Feel free to post the union memo that backs up your claim, circling the mandatory part in bright red plsthx.


In a union, you walk out when you're told and march when you're told or you get kicked out and lose your job.
 
2011-02-21 07:36:55 PM  

Giltric: The people have spoken and elected a Republican.

Do the libs only like democracy when it favors their candidate and policies?


Remember when Obama said he won?

Suck it you hypocritical losers.

Wonder how my single malt would taste with a splash of your tears.



Are you responding to a different perhaps made up debate? because your angry words seem to have nothing to do with the discussion that is going on here.
 
2011-02-21 07:37:10 PM  

whidbey: Feel free to post the union memo that backs up your claim, circling the mandatory part in bright red plsthx.


Funny, isn't it, how the authoritarian personality seems to be so transparent about their projecting?
 
2011-02-21 07:37:47 PM  

Penman: In a union


In a Fark thread, you can make up anything you want. It's sort of like a cartoon.
 
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