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(Daily Mail)   Afghan judge to Red Cross worker: Convert back to Islam or you'll be hanged in three days. Red Cross worker: STFU   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 310
    More: Obvious, Red Cross, Afghans, islam, Christianity, STFU, Red Cross worker  
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27113 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Feb 2011 at 10:18 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-02-06 11:31:37 PM

Zamboro: WhyteRaven74: "Thanks for naming the only three where it is allowed. And extra judicial stuff, well it's extra judicial ie outside the law. What some yokel tries does not mean the government condones it."

On the other hand, there are a lot of moral directives in the Bible and Qur'an moderates simply pretend aren't there or rationalize away because they're untenably brutal in the modern world, and are inconsistent with what they imagine their religion "really means".

More power to 'em. It'd just be nice if they'd recognize that as they move further and further from the obvious intended meaning of certain portions of their holy book, and towards what we now consider civilized and ethical, what they're migrating towards is some kind of humanism. I guess I don't need them to be honest about that with themselves though, provided they keep progressing along that gradient.


Do you not feel that the ancient texts, so long as they are still taken seriously, act as a big ass road block to that progress?

It seems to me that at some point these texts are going to need a major revision if religious doctrine as a whole is to catch up with modern ethics. Because as long as those passages are there, some people will feel justified in living up to them.
 
2011-02-06 11:31:54 PM

Zamboro: It's so tragically, pointlessly brutal. They have no concept of how meaningless it is to kill or die for either religion.


Its got nothing to do with religion.
They just want you to think that way so you bang your head against our concept of freedom of religion instead of realizing its all about power and how they usurp it from the rightful authorities.

By making everyone a fearful member of faction X they allow a cleric three nations away to call the shots for people he couldn't give two craps about otherwise.
Wont matter how many taliban we kill or how many times a day we drive through a town liberating people. This judge is putting the cold hard pinch of an outside power directly on them and its being perceived as having the blessing of the state.

If we keep treating such men as religious leaders instead of enemy conspirators, we're not going to make any progress.
 
2011-02-06 11:32:35 PM
Can we finally retire this?

www.goldrush.com
 
2011-02-06 11:33:58 PM

way south: Its got nothing to do with religion.


Oh come on. Really? A Christian is killed for failing to convert to Islam, and you say it has nothing to do with religion.
 
2011-02-06 11:34:00 PM

genner: Can we finally retire this?


Once it starts happening in the United States, which, if I'm recalling correctly, is what the graph represents, sure.
 
2011-02-06 11:34:48 PM

untaken_name: shivashakti: Isn't one of the reasons that we went there to get rid of fundamentalist sh*t like this?

I mean, obviously 9/11 was the major part of it. But didn't we get rid of the Taliban? Why are the fundamentalists still running things and why are we doing business with them?


The Taliban got rid of these. Obviously, we couldn't have THAT. So what some guy's going to be murdered for his religion? We have our priorities straight.



You know that the Taliban stopped the growing of poppy's so that their own stockpiles of heroin would allow them to charge more? The Taliban hate competition.

A leaked 2009 Congressional Research Service Report looks at this development in some detail. "This strategy would reflect a desire by the Taliban to use their 'monopoly' position to maximize profits, i.e. restrict supply by restricting cultivation; drive prices up dramatically; and sell from an extensive supply of stockpiled opium."

Those stockpiles, the report says, reached up to sixty percent of the opium crop, according to the UN.[xv]

The document also says that "according to US drug enforcement data, the price of a kilo of opium in Afghanistan and bordering regions has jumped almost tenfold from $44 per kilo to between $350 and $400 per kilo" in 2001, and "UN officials report that the price has jumped as high as $700."
 
2011-02-06 11:35:40 PM

Oznog: Kirk IS The Messiah. We believe Picard was a wise man, but he is NOT our Savior.


What? How dare you blaspheme Picard! I should have your head!
 
2011-02-06 11:36:03 PM
I hope the media picks up on this and there's some type of intervention from our government.
 
2011-02-06 11:36:30 PM
I personally would have no beef with eviscerating that judge in a public square.

It's not because I'm Christian. I'm not. I think Christian churches of almost all denominations (except the Anglican family) are enormous hypocrites. But any religion still requires this irrational belief in an invisible sky father that I just can't get on board with. This is not religious.

Here's the thing. I believe that it makes perfect sense to execute those who think it's ok to execute people for thoughtcrime. It's not hypocritical in the slightest.

If you think someone should die for not thinking like you do, then you should die, because you are a blight on humanity. Not your victim.

Your victim is a human being. You are an animal, a predator, who kills human beings, and for the good of our species you need to be removed from the planet.
 
2011-02-06 11:38:32 PM
evaned: Oznog: Kirk IS The Messiah. We believe Picard was a wise man, but he is NOT our Savior.

What? How dare you blaspheme Picard! I should have your head!


Infidel treckies, I find your lack of faith disturbing.
 
2011-02-06 11:39:22 PM
Reconquista.
 
2011-02-06 11:40:05 PM
We don't agree with him...let's kill him! Those kooky Muslims.
 
2011-02-06 11:40:41 PM
If he was at the German embassy seeking asylum, why did the Germans let him arrested? The embassy grounds are German territory, if he's there seeking asylum, he can't be touched.
 
2011-02-06 11:42:27 PM

Poppa Boner: Mock26: Sure it was part of the deal. We brought them democracy and the freedom to run the country as they see fit.

Well then I want our Canadian troops back home. Now!


we're too busy fighting for our internets
 
2011-02-06 11:43:13 PM

WhyteRaven74: If he was at the German embassy seeking asylum, why did the Germans let him arrested? The embassy grounds are German territory, if he's there seeking asylum, he can't be touched.


Because all of the people in Afghanistan are known as law abiding citizens, right?
 
2011-02-06 11:45:30 PM
way south: "Its got nothing to do with religion."

Nigerian please. This whole "religion is all sunshine, lollipops and rainbows and never causes any harm whatsoever" thing is silly. Granted, so is the opposite extreme of "everything bad that ever happened including last wednesday when I fell of my bike and got road rash is the fault of religion" is equally silly, but you need to allow for the outlandish possibility that when people hold mistaken beliefs about reality and act on them it will often result in disaster.

way south: "They just want you to think that way so you bang your head against our concept of freedom of religion instead of realizing its all about power and how they usurp it from the rightful authorities."

Right, and the fact that religion factually does make people vulnerable to this is one of my principle complaints. The same is potentially true of other types of ideology, but the study linked above showed the strongest effect in devout religious believers.
 
2011-02-06 11:47:17 PM
We shouldn't be getting entangled in the affairs of foreign and sovereign nations.

How would we feel if other nations meddled directly in ours?
 
2011-02-06 11:47:34 PM
So you say "Sure, buddy... I'll do it. Bam! I'm Muslim now."

They spring you from the cage, you hop a bus to wherever, and you send them a postcard saying "Just kidding, ay-holes! I'm still down with Jeezuz! Suck it!"

We're making this harder than it has to be.
 
2011-02-06 11:52:23 PM
farm2.static.flickr.com
 
2011-02-06 11:53:36 PM

yesanded: So you say "Sure, buddy... I'll do it. Bam! I'm Muslim now."

They spring you from the cage, you hop a bus to wherever, and you send them a postcard saying "Just kidding, ay-holes! I'm still down with Jeezuz! Suck it!"

We're making this harder than it has to be.


Matthew 10:

32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
 
2011-02-06 11:53:51 PM
FTA: Said Musa, 45, has been held for eight months in a Kabul prison were he claims he has been tortured and sexually abused by inmates and guards.

This makes him gay now, god hates teh gays.
 
2011-02-06 11:57:19 PM
This is bullshiat and a half goddammit. Now is the time for no words and more farkin' NAPALM!!!

:D

/I kid, I kid.
//But seriously, remember Allah, we have it. And we ain't afraid to bring it rainin' down on ya'll muthatruckers if you keep this shizz up.
 
2011-02-07 12:01:16 AM

shivashakti: Isn't one of the reasons that we went there to get rid of fundamentalist sh*t like this?

I mean, obviously 9/11 was the major part of it. But didn't we get rid of the Taliban? Why are the fundamentalists still running things and why are we doing business with them?


Bolded for the part that answers the question.
 
2011-02-07 12:03:11 AM
Has anyone posted this yet?

i302.photobucket.com
 
2011-02-07 12:03:16 AM

SJKebab: Gulper Eel: So what happens when the guy asks for pork chops as his last meal?

May as well throw a carton of beer in there, just to be sure.


Don't forget a bag of pork rinds
 
2011-02-07 12:05:51 AM
I still wanna know...

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
 
2011-02-07 12:05:59 AM

evaned: Oznog: Kirk IS The Messiah. We believe Picard was a wise man, but he is NOT our Savior.

What? How dare you blaspheme Picard! I should shave your head!


/FTFY
//Make it so.
 
2011-02-07 12:06:04 AM
Looking around, it was mentioned in a cnn blog and a bunch of Christian websites. Here's an example, in which another little nugget was revealed: access to a lawyer for Afghanis is apparently restricted to other citizens of Afghanistan, so Amnesty International's lawyers are not able to help him.

I think the issues with Islam are not really that it mentions killing the crap out of people who aren't Muslims -- most of the other big religions are pretty mean-spirited as well. Less educated cultures don't have a finely-honed sense of satire, so when they read the parts of their religious texts that tell tell them to kill infidels, they actually believe it. I believe the writers of these texts just put stuff like that in so they could put it on tests and see if their students actually read the chapters.

With Afghanistan, you've still got tribes and their culture still has many relics from the old days. Example: the burkha is only mentioned in passing in like one or two places in the Koran, but in some areas women can get stoned (by their own family members, no less) for not wearing them because of vestigial cultural misogyny, not because the Koran tells them so.
 
2011-02-07 12:08:10 AM

we_hates: yesanded: So you say "Sure, buddy... I'll do it. Bam! I'm Muslim now."

They spring you from the cage, you hop a bus to wherever, and you send them a postcard saying "Just kidding, ay-holes! I'm still down with Jeezuz! Suck it!"

We're making this harder than it has to be.

Matthew 10:

32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.


HA HA HA HA HA!!


What?
 
2011-02-07 12:08:34 AM
mjbok: Because all of the people in Afghanistan are known as law abiding citizens, right?

If he was on the grounds of the German embassy it's up to them to see to it he's left alone.
 
2011-02-07 12:08:48 AM

HumanBeingsSuck:
Here's the thing. I believe that it makes perfect sense to execute those who think it's ok to execute people for thoughtcrime. It's not hypocritical in the slightest.

If you think someone should die for not thinking like you do, then you should die, because you are a blight on humanity. Not your victim.

Your victim is a human being. You are an animal, a predator, who kills human beings, and for the good of our species you need to be removed from the planet.

So should we be expecting you to report to the nearest termination booth sometime soon? You are quite blatantly thinking someone should die for not thinking as you do. If you're truly being 'not hypocritical', about it, the only polite thing to do is set a proper example.

People who do horrible things to others are still people. They deserve the same protections under the law, whether domestic or international, that we accuse them of denying to others. Otherwise we're no better than we claim they are.
 
2011-02-07 12:10:41 AM
Amused by anger from right wing Americans at someone suffering an unjust case of direct violence but they are okay with indirect structural violence that results in the deaths/lowered life quality of millions of Americans.
 
2011-02-07 12:11:23 AM
And now presenting the outrage from moderate muslims....

...hello, moderates?

hello? Moderate outrage? You're on now.


...guess there isn't any.
 
2011-02-07 12:11:53 AM

yesanded: HA HA HA HA HA!!


What?


That last part wasn't strictly germane, but I thought it added some nice context for the discussion.
 
2011-02-07 12:15:41 AM
Seriously, don't we have a few hundred thousand well armed sumbiatches over there? How much worse could our position over there be if walked in and said "Let us take this problem heretic off your hands." and bundled the guy into a waiting helicopter, never to be seen again?
 
2011-02-07 12:17:50 AM
This is the problem when making your own religion. You need to be careful about the things you say when you are mad because they will stick around for centuries and cause problems.
 
2011-02-07 12:18:04 AM

neenerist: Problem: vengeful, blood thirsty cleric. Solution:


Unfortunately, vengeful, blood thirsty clerics are more readily available than competent snipers, and the probability of losing the sniper in the attempt is non-zero.

way south: Its got nothing to do with religion.
They just want you to think that way so you bang your head against our concept of freedom of religion instead of realizing its all about power and how they usurp it from the rightful authorities.


Except that ignores that the "rightful authorities" are religious authorities; the law is rooted in Islamic religious tradition against apostasy.

That said, yes, the underlying problem may well be rooted in (excessive) authoritarian submission, conventionalism, aggressiveness directed against outliers from authoritative norms, and desire for personal and in-group social dominance. Contrariwise, while not the only mode of expressing these, religion is one very prevalent mode.

Zamboro: Right, and the fact that religion factually does make people vulnerable to this is one of my principle complaints.


But is religion the cause, or merely an expression of tendency to authoritarian submission that may arise from genetic and/or non-religious environmental factors?

imgs.xkcd.com
 
2011-02-07 12:24:04 AM
Well, what would you do? Tell them you want remain a Christian?

Cause guess what.. that's like running around in a country where blue shirts are outlawed, and wearing a blue shirt. Take a wild guess on what is going to happen...

/ have a nice rest of your day...
 
2011-02-07 12:24:15 AM

abb3w: But is religion the cause, or merely an expression of tendency to authoritarian submission that may arise from genetic and/or non-religious environmental factors?


They most likely both feed off each other, but what is clear is that religion doesn't help. The best that can be said about it is that it gets in the way of progress. The worst - it creates problems that wouldn't otherwise exist, and it exacerbates and exaggerates pre-existing problems to an absurd degree.
 
2011-02-07 12:25:11 AM
But we're going to let them kill this guy.

Now I see why we're In Afghanistan.
 
2011-02-07 12:26:46 AM

RammaLamma: Well, what would you do? Tell them you want remain a Christian?

Cause guess what.. that's like running around in a country where blue shirts are outlawed, and wearing a blue shirt. Take a wild guess on what is going to happen...

/ have a nice rest of your day...


This guy appears happy to sacrifice himself for the Christian faith. So Christianity isn't entirely off the hook here.
 
2011-02-07 12:27:23 AM

steamingpile: When will the rest of the world wake up to this bullshiat, if the religious right were stoning people you would farking raise hell, islam does it and you say to respect their religion.


Um, no, we don't. Not most of us. Most of us condemn religious violence and laws which violate freedom of religion equally whether the religion in question is Islam, Christianity, or FSM-ism.
 
2011-02-07 12:27:51 AM
abb3w: "But is religion the cause, or merely an expression of tendency to authoritarian submission that may arise from genetic and/or non-religious environmental factors?"

Could be both. I'd like to see more studies. What I'd bet my last dime on, though, is that a child who grows up in an environment where the notion that faith is virtuous will wind up with diminished capacity for critical thought, at least when it comes to the claims they've been coached to have faith in.

Again, this may extend to many other kinda of ideology, but the study didn't explore that. What it did show was that the effect was strongest in the very religiously devout sample, and that it didn't work if the charismatic figure just happened to be Christian, only if they claimed to be some sort of special figure, in this case a healer.
 
2011-02-07 12:28:52 AM

Tickle Mittens: Free Range Deranged: Well, why not? Their country, their rules. You don't want to keep the faith? Then leave the country.

Might makes rights if not right? I like that line of logic. Well, at least where it leads Islam.


No, when in Rome, do as the Romans. If you want to question the Holocaust, don't do it in Europe, Australia or Canada. Want to chew gum or spit on the sidewalk, don't do it in Singapore.
 
2011-02-07 12:29:18 AM

tarvuz: Amused by anger from right wing Americans at someone suffering an unjust case of direct violence but they are okay with indirect structural violence that results in the deaths/lowered life quality of millions of Americans.


Just curious, can you given an example, or a somewhat more defined explanation of the indirect structural violence?
 
2011-02-07 12:30:57 AM

elchip: steamingpile: islam does it and you say to respect their religion.

Look at all the people in this thread echoing that sentiment!


They dont mean it, christianity is the only real evil in this world because it is taught and practiced by white peoples, islam is practiced by brown people so thats why its the real truthful religion.
 
2011-02-07 12:32:22 AM
ciberido: "Um, no, we don't. Not most of us. Most of us condemn religious violence and laws which violate freedom of religion equally whether the religion in question is Islam, Christianity, or FSM-ism."

Many who consider themselves tolerant, ordinary Christians nonetheless react very badly when their beliefs are called into question, especially when it is done so in a clear and convincing manner.

farm6.static.flickr.com

It seems to hit them in a very soft spot, and they react as if you've done something monstrous no matter how polite your tone was.
 
2011-02-07 12:35:21 AM

yesanded: So you say "Sure, buddy... I'll do it. Bam! I'm Muslim now."

They spring you from the cage, you hop a bus to wherever, and you send them a postcard saying "Just kidding, ay-holes! I'm still down with Jeezuz! Suck it!"


Three guys named Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego would like to have a word with you.
 
2011-02-07 12:36:52 AM
And people say I was nuts for advocating using nuclear weapons in Tora Bora. We could have cleaned that whole mess up inside of a matter of weeks instead of looking at losing after 10 years.
 
2011-02-07 12:38:04 AM
abb3w: Unfortunately, vengeful, blood thirsty clerics are more readily available than competent snipers, and the probability of losing the sniper in the attempt is non-zero.

Don't be too hasty now, how many would it take? I'm guessing clerics like this are driven by the knowledge they're untouchable. They can indulge their darkest fantasies through religion without consequence. It's cowardice. Change the equation though, enter them into the involuntary head shot lottery and that certainty evaporates.
Beats the blast-em-all used so far.
 
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