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(The News & Observer (NC))   North Carolina DOT chief engineer wants citizen criminally charged for disagreeing with his agency. Not because the criticism was wrong -- because it was right   (newsobserver.com) divider line 283
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26888 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Feb 2011 at 1:10 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-02-04 10:45:30 AM  
If they make any attempt to charge him with anything, he should sue (assuming he has money and time to do so) claiming they are violating his first amendment rights to petition the government.
 
2011-02-04 10:47:45 AM  
FTFA: Cox and his North Raleigh neighbors are lobbying city and state officials to add traffic signals at two intersections as part of a planned widening of Falls of Neuse Road.

The City Council agreed last year to add signals at the two intersections if DOT agrees that they are warranted by traffic conditions. But an engineering firm hired by the city concluded that the signals were not needed.

The North Raleigh group contends that the city's engineer erred by failing to predict how traffic conditions will change after Falls is widened to four lanes and medians are installed to block left turns from some side streets.
(which would be sloppy engineering, but after four years spent surrounded by engineers, would not surprise me)

At no point does the article say either side is correct. It reports the facts, i.e. one group said something, another group disagrees and wrote a refutation that appeared to be "engineering level" but was not claimed to be engineer work. The data provided could be interpreted at least a half dozen ways.

The analysis written by Cox's group here (new window)
 
2011-02-04 10:51:03 AM  
I think I know a chief traffic engineer who is about to lose his job for being an idiot.
 
2011-02-04 10:53:51 AM  

Yomoxu: FTFA: Cox and his North Raleigh neighbors are lobbying city and state officials to add traffic signals at two intersections as part of a planned widening of Falls of Neuse Road.

The City Council agreed last year to add signals at the two intersections if DOT agrees that they are warranted by traffic conditions. But an engineering firm hired by the city concluded that the signals were not needed.

The North Raleigh group contends that the city's engineer erred by failing to predict how traffic conditions will change after Falls is widened to four lanes and medians are installed to block left turns from some side streets. (which would be sloppy engineering, but after four years spent surrounded by engineers, would not surprise me)

At no point does the article say either side is correct. It reports the facts, i.e. one group said something, another group disagrees and wrote a refutation that appeared to be "engineering level" but was not claimed to be engineer work. The data provided could be interpreted at least a half dozen ways.

The analysis written by Cox's group here (new window)


THAT is the high end engineering study in question?

oh my f'ing god
 
2011-02-04 10:54:42 AM  

SouthernManDunWrong: I_Hate_Iowa: You can't practice engineering without a license? What the fark does that mean!? You can't do math without a license?

I can see if you're peddling your engineering skills to a company and you're not licensed, but this guy simply put a report together to say "Put in a traffic light."

Of all the government bullshiat great googly moogly...

If you call yourself an engineer and are not an Engineering Intern, Engineer in Training, or a Professional Engineer, you can get in trouble by the state board of engineers. It is really funny too, because the board of engineers is comprised of licensed engineers that do not like it when you call yourself an engineer and aren't one.

The only exception to the rule is that you work under the direct supervision of a licensed engineer. But if you quit your job, you have to quit calling yourself an "engineer".

About the only way around this is to call yourself a project manager or say you have a degree in an engineering field and have worked in the industry for "x" years.

It is highly likely that the bureaucrat is on the board and that is why he complained.

/ used to work for an environmental consulting company as an "engineer" and was not a PE, EI or EIT. It was funny reading the engineering journals discussing people practicing without a license. Why, they could build something that may kill people. You know, like the Challenger, the Mississippi River Bridge in Minneapolis, or other things that collapse and squish you like a bug.


It does tend to vary by state though. Especially in regards to EI/EIT thing. There are some states (or were 10 years ago when I went through the process) that did not require PE applicants to take the FE exam or go to an ABET accredited school.
 
2011-02-04 10:58:04 AM  
Sounds like Mr. Lacy is envious of Cox. I'm sure he thought this was the proper way to handle Cox, but it seems it blew up in his face.
 
2011-02-04 10:58:56 AM  
So much for people being naturally intelligent.
 
2011-02-04 10:59:39 AM  

I_Hate_Iowa: You can't practice engineering without a license? What the fark does that mean!? You can't do math without a license?

I can see if you're peddling your engineering skills to a company and you're not licensed, but this guy simply put a report together to say "Put in a traffic light."

Of all the government bullshiat great googly moogly...


Actually, the law makes sense. Lives depend on engineering, thus there are laws against practicing certain kinds of engineering without a license the same as there are laws against practicing medicine without a license.

He's not claiming a status he doesn't have, though, and his work is not intended (nor could it be used) for any safety-critical matter so I can't see how he violated the law.

Sim Tree: So basically they're after this guy because his report looked too good? Too professional? It sounds like those teachers who demand, if you made 100% on the test, "you must have been cheating".

I believe the real reason for all this: they want to force out which "traitor" engineer created this report, so they can blacklist him somewhere for city projects.


That makes a lot of sense.
 
2011-02-04 11:02:29 AM  

Yomoxu: The North Raleigh group contends that the city's engineer erred by failing to predict how traffic conditions will change after Falls is widened to four lanes and medians are installed to block left turns from some side streets.


But they don't matter, because it should have been the engineering firm hired by the city that concluded the signals were not needed that they have a problem with. And they also don't matter because they don't have a professional opinion. It'd be different if they hired an engineering firm to assess the situation and give THEIR professional opinion. That would hold actual weight. They are a whining group of homeowners that didn't get their way. Yes, they made a spiffy professional looking presentation. Doesn't matter. I do agree the charges that may be filed against them are ridiculous, but that doesn't make them right.

It'd be like if you (or anyone) order a roast beef and provolone sub. The person at the deli makes you a roast beef and provolone sub. You think the cheese is muenster and produce a slide show documenting the intricacies of the difference of texture,color, and smell of muesnter vs. provolone, and you complain...but the manager comes over and confirms it is indeed provolone, and yet you still complain.
 
2011-02-04 11:03:12 AM  

Salacious Salad: Here is the actual law.

Link (new window)

The definition of Practice of Engineering is so broad, he might be screwed.



Not really, "to practice" typically means you're getting paid for it, or you're offering work with expectation of payment.

This guy's stuff just amounts to an informed opinion until he starts seeking money for it.
 
2011-02-04 11:03:55 AM  

Alathea: So much for people being naturally intelligent.


Where ever did you get that idea from? Five minutes on the internet should've cured you of that.
 
2011-02-04 11:05:17 AM  

maxwellhauser: What would be awesome is if the DOT came back and said, "Fine. We'll put in a roundabout." I wonder what the reaction would be?

Traffic projections, much like most engineering, is essentially playing with historical statistics and making an educated guess as to what is going to happen in the future. I bet if you had 10 firms do that same study, they'd all come up with different projections and would even come to some different conclusions (like a traffic signal isn't warranted at this point in time, but at some point in the future....).

/blah blah blah "standard of care" blah blah blah....


"Traffic Engineer" is a subset of Civil Engineer. Civil Engineers have to learn 2 things: Sh*t runs downhill, and payday is every other Friday.

The guy wouldn't feel threatened if he knew what he was doing.
 
2011-02-04 11:06:01 AM  

OldManDownDRoad: MythDragon:
Yeah, they work only if drivers arn't stupid. And from the two roundabouts I've seen in VA, they are closer to circular death-traps. People not yielding to the drivers in the loop, people driving the wrong farking direction because the street is closer that way...yeah maybe in European counties, but people lose their damn minds in roundabouts in the U.S.

Dude, you have no idea. They have started building roundabouts here in NC and they are clusterfarks of amazingly bad driving and idiocy. I've almost been nailed in a roundabout so many times I actually avoid taking streets where they are located.

There's a roundabout in front of the WalMart (!!) in Hillsborough - and H-boro is one of those towns that's half filled with slack-jawed hicks and half filled with imported Yankee yuppies. So if you don't get hit by MeMaw in her '86 Buick (the one with the broken window regulators so she has to open the door at the drive-thru) driving the wrong way around, you have to deal with Carmen or Peter in their SUV, yapping on the cell phone while cutting across the median because they can't deal with it.

Course, I saw some of the same behavio(u)r while living in England, so I don't think nationality has anything to do with it. I'm about convinced that driver's licenses should only be issued after taking a driving test similar to that imposed on F1 drivers.

/native
//but not slack-jawed hick
///or yuppie


They put one in where I live and I've almost been in accidents in it several times in the last couple of years. Yet in the 18 years I lived here where that intersection had a traffic light I never even had one close call.
 
2011-02-04 11:06:40 AM  
Sounds like North Carolina needs to get better engineers.
 
2011-02-04 11:07:09 AM  
Where did it indicate the citizen was right?
 
2011-02-04 11:20:33 AM  
"But Lacy says he filed the complaint because the report "appears to be engineering-level work" by someone who is not licensed as a professional engineer.

Read more: http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/03/964781/citizen-activist-grates-on-state.h tml#ixzz1D0Tr66PD"

Not to troll here, but as someone who was also a Nuclear engineer in the Navy, and started out as a computer engineer in college (but instead graduated in computer science because engineering was too easy), perhaps what Lacy is *really* saying here is that the work was *too good* for an engineer to have done.

Based on the work I've seen from most engineers, I think part of the licensing process for engineers must require that you screw several things up so badly that multiple people curse you on a daily basis.

-Remember all engineering projects are built by the lowest bidder, and you get what you pay for. Next time, hire a computer scientist who can actually model the project for you without ignoring other people's input, physically building it and wasting money, time, and effort first.
 
2011-02-04 11:23:32 AM  

onearmedninja: Obviously that part of NC is a lot less stop light happy than my part of NC. Where I live you have to beg them not to put up stop lights at every intersection. I hate sitting at the same stop lights everyday for all those invisible cars to get through the intersection.


In your part of NC the electrical contractors are paying kickbacks to people in the county government, or they are basically the same people.
 
2011-02-04 11:24:15 AM  

Gabrielmot: Based on the work I've seen from most engineers, I think part of the licensing process for engineers must require that you screw several things up so badly that multiple people curse you on a daily basis.


That and not being able to spell/or the prevalence of dislexia. Seriously some of the plans I've seen horrify me.
 
2011-02-04 11:26:14 AM  

GoSurfing: Yomoxu: The North Raleigh group contends that the city's engineer erred by failing to predict how traffic conditions will change after Falls is widened to four lanes and medians are installed to block left turns from some side streets.

But they don't matter, because it should have been the engineering firm hired by the city that concluded the signals were not needed that they have a problem with. And they also don't matter because they don't have a professional opinion. It'd be different if they hired an engineering firm to assess the situation and give THEIR professional opinion. That would hold actual weight. They are a whining group of homeowners that didn't get their way. Yes, they made a spiffy professional looking presentation. Doesn't matter. I do agree the charges that may be filed against them are ridiculous, but that doesn't make them right.

It'd be like if you (or anyone) order a roast beef and provolone sub. The person at the deli makes you a roast beef and provolone sub. You think the cheese is muenster and produce a slide show documenting the intricacies of the difference of texture,color, and smell of muesnter vs. provolone, and you complain...but the manager comes over and confirms it is indeed provolone, and yet you still complain.


AND then he presses criminal charges against you for unlawful cheese engineering level work
 
2011-02-04 11:27:19 AM  
I take this portion of Falls fairly regularly on the bike to get to the good country roads for riding. And I can see Mr. Cox's point very easily. The entire reason for widening that stretch of Falls is a direct result of RTP traffic trying to find different routes besides congested highways. If you add more lanes, you're adding more RTP traffic, and there are a fair number of neighbors around right on the edge of Raleigh City limits.

/common sense, deductive logic, yadda yadda
// Kevin Lacy's email address is very easily attainable through NCDOT's website, fyi
 
2011-02-04 11:27:19 AM  
Damn...he's in a tight spot.
i55.tinypic.com

\dapper dan man, myself.
 
2011-02-04 11:27:44 AM  

GoSurfing: Yomoxu: The North Raleigh group contends that the city's engineer erred by failing to predict how traffic conditions will change after Falls is widened to four lanes and medians are installed to block left turns from some side streets.

But they don't matter, because it should have been the engineering firm hired by the city that concluded the signals were not needed that they have a problem with. And they also don't matter because they don't have a professional opinion. It'd be different if they hired an engineering firm to assess the situation and give THEIR professional opinion. That would hold actual weight. They are a whining group of homeowners that didn't get their way. Yes, they made a spiffy professional looking presentation. Doesn't matter. I do agree the charges that may be filed against them are ridiculous, but that doesn't make them right.

It'd be like if you (or anyone) order a roast beef and provolone sub. The person at the deli makes you a roast beef and provolone sub. You think the cheese is muenster and produce a slide show documenting the intricacies of the difference of texture,color, and smell of muesnter vs. provolone, and you complain...but the manager comes over and confirms it is indeed provolone, and yet you still complain.


So, without an engineering degree and a consulting firm, your mathematically backed opinions don't matter?

And you didn't read it properly. They didn't contend that the provolone was muenster, they contended the sandwich maker didn't put in cheese at all (did not do the work of extrapolating for greater traffic flow). Basically, they called them on a shoddy job.

Don't let the Iron Ring cut off blood flow to your brain, bud.
 
2011-02-04 11:28:10 AM  
Maybe they'll spend this chief engineer's retirement fighting for his law suit all the way up to the supreme court.
 
2011-02-04 11:28:59 AM  

GoSurfing: That and not being able to spell/or the prevalence of dislexia


LOLNOTSUREIFSIRIUS.JPG

\not dissin'
\\jes sayin'
 
2011-02-04 11:33:30 AM  

red5ish: I'm not claiming Kevin Lacy is a douche-bag, but he appears to be doing douche-bag level work.


Cheers!
 
2011-02-04 11:36:25 AM  
I hope they get William Atherton to play this DOT chief engineer in the afterschool special they make about this incident
 
2011-02-04 11:38:43 AM  

Bartleby the Scrivener: \not dissin'
\\jes sayin'


I saw the red wavy line under it, and went with it anyways for the lulz.
 
2011-02-04 11:40:17 AM  
"The City of Raleigh had the responsibility of conducting a signal warrant analysis according to the guidelines of the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices. We contend that the
engineers who did the study placed too much emphasis on current conditions and did not fully consider future conditions after Falls of Neuse Road is widened. The MUTCD is very explicit
that future conditions must be considered."

the above is from there report. little do they know that this is all of NC. It is a reqirement that you ingnore the part about "future conditions must be considered" if you are doing traffic control in NC. (as for wilmington they throw the book out the window and guess at trafic control)
 
2011-02-04 11:42:22 AM  

farkin_Gary: They better hang this fake engineering guy up good, or the next thing you know we'll have community organizers thinking that they can run the whole damn country.


+1
 
2011-02-04 11:44:22 AM  

Grass Hopper: So, without an engineering degree and a consulting firm, your mathematically backed opinions don't matter?


They matter, but they aren't necessarily correct unless you are actually a professional. Doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong either, but I don't go to sandwich makers when I need to know the torsional strength of a piece of steel.

Besides, their opinion on the traffic flow wasn't from the standpoint of an independent observer. This is important to note. They were biased in their decision, and they reported accordingly. An independent third party DID study the location, and they found it didn't need a traffic signal. I don't know what more can be said.
 
2011-02-04 11:48:44 AM  
All I read was "Shut up citizen, you're too smart for your own good."
 
2011-02-04 11:49:47 AM  

Grass Hopper: Basically, they called them on a shoddy job.


They called it a shoddy job because they didn't like the decision. Is that not obvious? Let's say they DID put up a traffic signal, and it caused unnecessary traffic. Then these SAME people would be whining about the supposed shoddy job done.
 
2011-02-04 11:50:05 AM  
The article makes this sound super bad but it actually sounds like the DOT guy did the right thing.

If an engineer prepared it then he should get in trouble for not signing it a/o for charging for engineering services when not being licensed, or something similar.

If it was prepared by the homeowners themselves though, and they did that high quality of work by just studying and working hard, then they won't get in any trouble for it.

The DOT guy is only concerned about the first issue, but the article makes it sound like it is about the second possibility.
 
2011-02-04 11:50:28 AM  
But Lacy says he filed the complaint because the report "appears to be engineering-level work" by someone who is not licensed as a professional engineer.

Could someone try to explain the legal aspects of this to me in layman's terms? Be careful not to use any big words when you do so, that might be a misdemeanor.

/no, not rly srs
 
2011-02-04 11:54:09 AM  

Nuuu: CrimsonAndCream: So if government went with his idea the worst that could happen would be that the street would have one more streetlight than it needs.

That's not the worst that could happen.

The worst that could happen is that the addition of the new stop lights causes traffic to back up across a railroad track. The first time this happens, a school bus full of kids from a local orphanage is stuck across the tracks where it is annihilated by an oncoming freight train. The super-elastic bones of the spry, young orphans fly out like an enfilade fire of human remains, squarely directed at a line of people waiting to enter a fundraising event from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. The subsequent lawsuits against the foundation cause its bankruptcy and the fear of copycat suits causes a total worldwide halt to charitable donations. Consequently, diseases targeted by these charitable foundations experience a dramatic resurgence against a worldwide population with no experience against them and therefore no inherent immunities. Soon, the human race is extinguished by small pox. Had humanity not been eradicated by disease, our distant descendants would have eventually discovered a way to prevent the entropy death of the universe. Because no other civilization would ever be capable of such a discovery, the universe ends, quashing all things, everywhere, for all time thereafter.

That's the worst that could happen.


That's pretty good, do you write copy for the Brady Bunch to? If not you should sue them for copying your style.
 
2011-02-04 11:55:12 AM  
So you only need to be a licensed engineer if you do "engineering-level work", right?
Works for me - I always make a point of doing my engineering shoddy and half-assed.
 
2011-02-04 12:03:40 PM  

Salacious Salad: Here is the actual law.
Link (new window)
The definition of Practice of Engineering is so broad, he might be screwed.


Nah, it's so broad it's utterly unenforceable. For instance, a strict reading forbids you from observing any professional (not just engineers) performing any service needed for either planning or completion of virtually anything (service or product) for the purpose of evaluating whether they are doing satisfactory work, or complying with plans or specifications, even if they are doing the work for you and you are doing so only to form your own opinion, if you use math, or compare the work to drawings or plans.

This means it would be illegal for a home purchaser to walk through a house being built for them and compare the work to the blueprints to evaluate such things as correct layout, electrical in the right locations, or satisfactory construction quality in general.

The definition of 'practice' is defined in the law, but is different and much broader than the definitions in either the standard dictionary or the law dictionary I checked.
Oh! Wait! Under their definition, by just forming an opinion about a professionals work I am practicing law without a licence!
 
2011-02-04 12:05:22 PM  

GoSurfing: Grass Hopper: So, without an engineering degree and a consulting firm, your mathematically backed opinions don't matter?

They matter, but they aren't necessarily correct unless you are actually a professional. Doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong either, but I don't go to sandwich makers when I need to know the torsional strength of a piece of steel.

Besides, their opinion on the traffic flow wasn't from the standpoint of an independent observer. This is important to note. They were biased in their decision, and they reported accordingly. An independent third party DID study the location, and they found it didn't need a traffic signal. I don't know what more can be said.


GoSurfing: Grass Hopper: Basically, they called them on a shoddy job.

They called it a shoddy job because they didn't like the decision. Is that not obvious? Let's say they DID put up a traffic signal, and it caused unnecessary traffic. Then these SAME people would be whining about the supposed shoddy job done.


I notice you left out the middle bit, where I, you know, actually explained what I was talking about.

That the engineering firm in question did not extrapolate for changes to traffic flow based on projected changes to the road. Or in other words, did a shoddy, shoddy job.

So you can keep talking about whining homeowners if you like, but it does not change the fact that the engineers were either incompetent for failing to do so, or unprofessional for deliberately leaving it out because that's the finding the city was paying them for.

Feel free to only cut out what you want to to reply to in this post too. It's such a clever strategy.
 
2011-02-04 12:05:36 PM  
From the end of the article, which apparently most of you skipped:

Cox would not identify the report's authors.

"I helped pull the report together," he said. "Because of this investigation, I'm not going to say who was involved in it and who wasn't involved. All we're saying is our association prepared the report."


If he didn't have an engineer prepare the report, why is Cox being so cagey?
 
2011-02-04 12:05:39 PM  

Nuuu: CrimsonAndCream: So if government went with his idea the worst that could happen would be that the street would have one more streetlight than it needs.

That's not the worst that could happen.

The worst that could happen is that the addition of the new stop lights causes traffic to back up across a railroad track. The first time this happens, a school bus full of kids from a local orphanage is stuck across the tracks where it is annihilated by an oncoming freight train. The super-elastic bones of the spry, young orphans fly out like an enfilade fire of human remains, squarely directed at a line of people waiting to enter a fundraising event from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. The subsequent lawsuits against the foundation cause its bankruptcy and the fear of copycat suits causes a total worldwide halt to charitable donations. Consequently, diseases targeted by these charitable foundations experience a dramatic resurgence against a worldwide population with no experience against them and therefore no inherent immunities. Soon, the human race is extinguished by small pox. Had humanity not been eradicated by disease, our distant descendants would have eventually discovered a way to prevent the entropy death of the universe. Because no other civilization would ever be capable of such a discovery, the universe ends, quashing all things, everywhere, for all time thereafter.

That's the worst that could happen.


No railroads around there
 
2011-02-04 12:11:25 PM  

Loren: Actually, the law makes sense. Lives depend on engineering, thus there are laws against practicing certain kinds of engineering without a license the same as there are laws against practicing medicine without a license.


A professional engineering license really only gives you the ability to sign off on drawings submitted for permitting, in _some_ fields. Those where engineering mistakes cause things to fall down or blow up. Oh yeah a PE also allows you to hold certain government jobs and thus engage in pretty graft.
 
2011-02-04 12:25:36 PM  

Sim Tree: So basically they're after this guy because his report looked too good? Too professional? It sounds like those teachers who demand, if you made 100% on the test, "you must have been cheating".

I believe the real reason for all this: they want to force out which "traitor" engineer created this report, so they can blacklist him somewhere for city projects.


Came here to say this. The anonymous engineer is probably a DOT employee as well. That depth of knowledge of traffic engineering is not likely to be present in a "hobbiest", although it's certainly possible.

Kevin Lacy, however, appears to have an advanced degree in asshattery. His current asshattery does not serve the citizens of North Carolina well. He owes Cox an apology for defaming him and owes North Carolina an apology for being an asshat.
 
2011-02-04 12:29:53 PM  

d000fus: From the end of the article, which apparently most of you skipped:

Cox would not identify the report's authors.

"I helped pull the report together," he said. "Because of this investigation, I'm not going to say who was involved in it and who wasn't involved. All we're saying is our association prepared the report."

If he didn't have an engineer prepare the report, why is Cox being so cagey?


Because there's no reason to toss another few craniums to these headhunters. What Cox is saying is "I'll take the blame on this one, thanks."
 
2011-02-04 12:33:50 PM  

gibbon1: onearmedninja: Obviously that part of NC is a lot less stop light happy than my part of NC. Where I live you have to beg them not to put up stop lights at every intersection. I hate sitting at the same stop lights everyday for all those invisible cars to get through the intersection.

In your part of NC the electrical contractors are paying kickbacks to people in the county government, or they are basically the same people.


Fark Wilson Energy.

/'Wide Awake' my ass
 
2011-02-04 12:41:16 PM  

GoSurfing: FormlessOne: It's punitive, nothing more - he made the DOT look bad, and so they're going after him.

He never made them look bad in my opinion, because he was never actually correct. A third party engineering firm studied the location, and determined traffic signals weren't required.


And that means what exactly?

I can hire a third party engineering firm and politely ask them to report anything I want. Money talks.

Now, hire 2 or more firms and compare the outputs. Oh wait, we have 2 reports on the subject. One, for money, claims no lights are required. Another, for safety, says they should have lights.

Personally, I say split the difference and put in 1 light in the middle of the block between the intersections.
 
2011-02-04 12:51:10 PM  

Kahabut: Personally, I say split the difference and put in 1 light in the middle of the block between the intersections.


Or, split the difference and put up half-lights -- just the green part. Problem solved.
 
2011-02-04 12:53:26 PM  

d000fus: From the end of the article, which apparently most of you skipped:

Cox would not identify the report's authors.

"I helped pull the report together," he said. "Because of this investigation, I'm not going to say who was involved in it and who wasn't involved. All we're saying is our association prepared the report."

If he didn't have an engineer prepare the report, why is Cox being so cagey?


Because he's been talking to a lawyer who said don't say jack shiat about whether you did or who did because we're trying to avoid a practicing w/o a license charge. This is not rocket science, for which one does need a license.
 
2011-02-04 12:57:41 PM  

lelio: I'm siding with the government on this one. What if they were fooled into following this non-engineering citizen's recommendations and someone was killed due to the absence of a streetlight?


Actually, it's the other way around.

The busybodies are trying to get another traffic-impeding light put in, when they don't need one. They're within their rights to do so, but I do wish more traffic engineers would say "we don't need another light here" more often.

There are considerations other than some piddly little neighborhood, like keeping traffic moving. Every traffic light adds time to lots of people's commutes, and significantly increases pollution.
 
2011-02-04 12:59:34 PM  

GoSurfing: Yomoxu: The North Raleigh group contends that the city's engineer erred by failing to predict how traffic conditions will change after Falls is widened to four lanes and medians are installed to block left turns from some side streets.

But they don't matter, because it should have been the engineering firm hired by the city that concluded the signals were not needed that they have a problem with. And they also don't matter because they don't have a professional opinion. It'd be different if they hired an engineering firm to assess the situation and give THEIR professional opinion. That would hold actual weight. They are a whining group of homeowners that didn't get their way. Yes, they made a spiffy professional looking presentation. Doesn't matter. I do agree the charges that may be filed against them are ridiculous, but that doesn't make them right.

It'd be like if you (or anyone) order a roast beef and provolone sub. The person at the deli makes you a roast beef and provolone sub. You think the cheese is muenster and produce a slide show documenting the intricacies of the difference of texture,color, and smell of muesnter vs. provolone, and you complain...but the manager comes over and confirms it is indeed provolone, and yet you still complain.


They have every right to their opinion. It's *their neighborhood*. They have every right to attempt to buttress their opinion and strengthen their case.

Whether a traffic light is needed is *not* a matter of right or wrong, but a matter of "is it worth it, and will it make the situation better or worse", for all concerned. The city, and the residents disagree. Just because a bunch of engineers hired by the city, to buttress *their* arguments, are unhappy that their professional opinions are dared to be questioned doesn't make the residents wrong, or *criminals*.

In a court case, both sides present their arguments as best as they are capable. These arguments are presented to someone, or a group, tasked with *deciding* which is better for the community at large.

The residents put up their case, the city put up theirs, and the whining engineer is an arse.

And if you believe traffic patterns are cut-and-dried True or False, you're as much of an arse as that city engineer.

\get that stick out of there
\\get back with me when you actually care about your neighborhood
\\\then tell me you and your neighbors should STFU, and let the City handle it
 
2011-02-04 01:11:01 PM  

Nuuu: ...the universe ends, quashing all things, everywhere, for all time thereafter.i>.


Doesn't time itself end when the universe ends, so that there would be no "all time thereafter"?

Otherwise I'm with you
 
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