If you have to be licenced to make life and death decisions why can any schmuck go to the booth and vote when he doesnt even know the current Sec of State? Start there and then i will support Lacey's investigation

markcant: What a frivolous argument. How hard can it be to run a train?

First you have to get a sorority girl...

mongbiohazard: Stupid charges. Being that he isn't even alleged to be claiming to be an engineer I'm not sure how they think he wouldn't be protected by the first amendment.

I'm not sure how the law is written in NC, but you don't necessarily have to represent yourself as a member of a certain profession. In some states it depends on the perception of a reasonable person.

If you were practicing medicine for example, but never referred to yourself as Dr. Mong, it would still be obvious to a reasonable person you were practicing. I could see why an engineer would be upset about someone moonlighting, it's his profession and perhaps he feels he is protecting its integrity.

fracas: markcant: What a frivolous argument. How hard can it be to run a train?

First you have to get a sorority girl...

+ 1 million

/first thing that came to my mind too.

Thought criminal.

Hang him.

ReverendJasen: Sun Khan: So it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that the authorities are looking at this report may have concluded that a licensed engineer (the key here) drafted this report and failed to take responsibility for its contents, which is not cool.

If the author of the document never claimed to be an engineer, then the only one at fault would be whoever *assumed* it was created by one, and the author did not "practice without a license."

Anyone can write a professional looking legal document without fear of practicing law without a license, so long as they don't attempt to tell anyone they're a lawyer.
Anyone can write a letter in perfect medical terminology without fear of practicing medicine without a license.
This is no different.

He wrote a report. It's more akin to filing a brief or writing a medical history. There are certain conventions that are used and using those conventions could give a reasonable individual the impression that you were a lawyer, physician or engineer. If that's the case, then it's enough to prosecute in most states. Try putting a on a white coat in a hospital and walking in a patients room with a stethoscope to ask them a few questions. I'm 100% sure you will still be prosecuted even if you never call yourself "doctor".

My God.

It's full on idiocracy.

"You think you're real smart, don't ya', boy?"

Obviously that part of NC is a lot less stop light happy than my part of NC. Where I live you have to beg them not to put up stop lights at every intersection. I hate sitting at the same stop lights everyday for all those invisible cars to get through the intersection.

Wow...so all of those married couples who are working their problems out on their own? Practicing Marriage Counseling without a license.

Brushing your own teeth? Practicing dental hygiene without a license.

Wiping your own ass? Practicing proctology without a license.

Whee! This is fun!

gwowen: Nice try subby, but nowhere in the article is there the slightest suggestion that the petitioner is right -- or that his report is in any sense more accurate than that written by the person who actually is an engineer.

That's all the DOT chief had to say then, no?

fanbladesaresharp: Ivo Shandor: Speaking as an official not-an-Engineer*, this is bullshiat. If somebody hires a contractor to build a bridge based on his designs then yeah, he'd better be properly licensed. Merely doing the work and showing it to someone is fair game for anyone.

*B.A.Sc degree, but didn't follow through for the full P.Eng

Isn't this like MIT and other techie schools and their "open course" programs? You get all the info to read and learn as you wish, but none of the certifications?

A degree is only the first step to getting your PE (or P.Eng in Canada), you can't get the PE until you have passed a couple tests and have several years of experience. You only need the PE for some career tracks. Typically industrial design or government (at least federal) work you don't need the PE. If you are a consultant or are doing design for buildings, roads, bridges, etc., you do need to be licensed. Or you can work under a licensed PE and do the work, but won't get paid as much because you aren't taking responsibility for the work.

The PE is really a way of ensuring someone qualified is taking the responsibility (blame) for the project.

Regarding the licensing board, if he was trying to pass himself off as an engineer they typically have the power to fine you (civil, not criminal, penalty). Since he wasn't, the most he would likely get is the letter (as stated in the article). Based only on the article, I doubt he will even get that. From the states I am licensed in most of these complaints are dismissed during the investigation (which is a couple hours of work by one case worker, so not a huge investment).

As much as I would love to be outraged at government red tape - the article is about a home owners assocation wanker wanting tax payers to foot the bill to improve their own safety/property value.

fark em. If you can't find a legal reason to fark em, make shiat up.

We should support more of this. fark HOA's.

Someone ought to call up Mark Chilton. He's a pretty big fan of the NC Department of Roads Transportation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_H._Chilton

Sadly, all of these negative comments are dead on the money. About three years ago, the NCDOT spent a mega a$$load of ca$h shutting down a pair of on/off ramps near Hickory NC. No one wanted these ramps shut down, and despite numerous pleas/protests/lawsuits to leave the ramps alone (because they were convenient and often used)NCDOT bulldozed those bad boys. The cherry on the on the top was when concrete barriers were built to keep we, the people from using what was left of the ramps.

It was just coincidence that this change diverted all traffic to a newly built, nearby Wal-Mart.

/NC is a beautiful state.
//But our leaders in Raleigh think that Deliverance was a documentary.

moothemagiccow: The second some sixteen year old dies while trying to make a left at the intersection, the city's going to be falling over itself trying to put up a light there.

Hopefully this link works. You civil engineers can judge for yourselves

lol looks more like a case of we are throwing your own information back at you using the standards you should have used in the first place argument, not doing any engineering there. Yep, caught with your pants down not doing the work you are paid to do.
/Kevin Lacy is doing the cover my arse tard dance

some worthless government bureaucrat is proven to be wrong and he starts a pissing contest over it? Happens all the time, and it's always farking retarded. This is why we can't have nice things.

moothemagiccow: And the street signs are farking TINY! I'm on the goddamn highway, not standing on the corner. How can anyone read that shiat? Hang the damned sign by the light!

Yeah, municipalities control that. Try driving around in Greensboro sometime. Great signage. Big, reflective, mixed case... Everything that makes for a readable sign. Then drive to high point. The dopes there don't have a clue. One tiny sign that would be inadequate for a neighborhood at the intersection of two four lane roads.

wait a sec it was an HOA and an ego-picked-on-too-much-as-a-kid government worker with some inkling of influence?

I rescind my comment entirely, as this will need a different approach. Take the two shiatstains of existence and just put 'em in a soundproof room together. Give them food and water and just let them argue and whine for the rest of their pathetic lives at each other about how each one has more of a right to try to run the other's business.

Every single other being in the universe will be grateful for it.

Radio announcer:

Professional Lacey OWNED by amateur Cox!



See exclusive video on Eyewitness News TV!

He said he was surprised to see engineering-quality work in a report that was not signed by a licensed professional.

To me, that pretty much ends this stupidity right there. Signing your work is a SOP for professional work, ergo this isn't one.

Should have used Comic Sans font.

He wrote a report. It's more akin to filing a brief or writing a medical history. There are certain conventions that are used and using those conventions could give a reasonable individual the impression that you were a lawyer, physician or engineer. If that's the case, then it's enough to prosecute in most states. Try putting a on a white coat in a hospital and walking in a patients room with a stethoscope to ask them a few questions. I'm 100% sure you will still be prosecuted even if you never call yourself "doctor".


Note that Cox isn't delivering unfounded opinions to those who might now know better. He sent a report to the head of the state DOT. He is hardly praying on some patient ignorant about how to treat cancer.

ReverendJasen: If the author of the document never claimed to be an engineer, then the only one at fault would be whoever *assumed* it was created by one, and the author did not "practice without a license."

Anyone can write a professional looking legal document without fear of practicing law without a license, so long as they don't attempt to tell anyone they're a lawyer.
Anyone can write a letter in perfect medical terminology without fear of practicing medicine without a license.
This is no different.

I think you're only half right. Lots of software companies have been sued by bar associations (and lost) because of software that allowed people to draft legal and legal-ish documents by basically asking survey questions and then translating the answers into the proper legalese. If I recall correctly, in some cases the software comes with multiple huge disclaimers saying that the authors aren't lawyers and the software isn't legal advice. Doesn't necessarily work.

You have to realize that for all of these professional licenses and the like, only a small fraction of the justification is to ensure high-quality services. The bulk of the reason is to limit competition and artificially inflate prices.

If you stop thinking about this as a public welfare law and start thinking about it as the industry profit protection law that it is, then the charges here make total sense. By doing the work themselves, they took money out of some professional engineer's pockets, and marginally decreased the value of engineering service in that locality overall by increasing supply! That's against the law!

It's just one of many examples of the government passing laws requiring individual citizens to purchase goods and services from private vendors.

I'm siding with the government on this one. What if they were fooled into following this non-engineering citizen's recommendations and someone was killed due to the absence of a streetlight?


Then it would be their fault for poor street design, its their job to keep the roads safe. That isn't the point here. Maybe the state is right, maybe Cox is right about whether the street needs a light. I don't think anyone thinks that it is awful the state and Cox might disagree.
The problem is that the NC DOT is pissed that Cox would dare argue his side of things in an intelligent, reasoned manner.

Your point here is essentially the same as saying that someone without a law degree shouldn't be allowed to campaign against a law because they might be effective and convince someone to vote against a good law.

Also, note that Cox is the one wants the state to put in a light. So if government went with his idea the worst that could happen would be that the street would have one more streetlight than it needs.

One of these days I'd like to see something positive about Upper Cack here on Fark.

moothemagiccow: Strange how every medical student on the planet isn't currently in prison.

Every medical student makes it clear that IANAD.

If a patient interprets a student's advice as that of a doctor's it can become legally problematic for the student.

/medical student
//which is why I'm awake and sober at 3:14 am on a friday.

If you were practicing medicine for example, but never referred to yourself as Dr. Mong, it would still be obvious to a reasonable person you were practicing. I could see why an engineer would be upset about someone moonlighting, it's his profession and perhaps he feels he is protecting its integrity.


I think the fact that Cox isn't going around and just suggesting road design plans willy-nilly is an important distinction here.
He research and reported on one specific topic. To me, that is different that pretending to practice a profession on a larger, general scale.

Ivo Shandor: Speaking as an official not-an-Engineer*, this is bullshiat. If somebody hires a contractor to build a bridge based on his designs then yeah, he'd better be properly licensed. Merely doing the work and showing it to someone is fair game for anyone.

*B.A.Sc degree, but didn't follow through for the full P.Eng

Do they still do the iron ring ceremony up there?

drewkumo: He wrote a report. It's more akin to filing a brief or writing a medical history. There are certain conventions that are used and using those conventions could give a reasonable individual the impression that you were a lawyer, physician or engineer. If that's the case, then it's enough to prosecute in most states.

Oh, BS. I've represented myself (successfully) in a lawsuit against my county government, and filed an amicus brief in a case before my state's Supreme Court. In both cases I looked up existing filings to copy the structure, and had a law student critique my final formatting. So you're saying that because I made it look good, I'm prima facie practicing law without a license?

zzrhardy: As much as I would love to be outraged at government red tape - the article is about a home owners assocation wanker wanting tax payers to foot the bill to improve their own safety/property value.

No, it's about the state DOT not wanting to do their farking job. The whole point of a DOT is to make sure the highways are safe and efficient. Here they have manifestly failed in their duty, as is easily seen by looking at the report: what NCDOT did was look at what currently exists, without accounting for what's planned to be built.

Sun Khan:
Almost every profession has best practices and style sheets, whether it's journalism, medicine, law or yes, engineering - accepted ways and means to assemble and show data. For example, you could write a incisive commentary on a ruling just by having intelligence and wisdom, but your style of delivery would make that argument look nothing like a legal brief, as there's generally accepted conventions for writing those within the legal profession. So it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that the authorities are looking at this report may have concluded that a licensed engineer (the key here) drafted this report and failed to take responsibility for its contents, which is not cool

The article notes that Cox is, the writer of the report, is a "computer scientist" by trade. I have no skill or expertise in anything relating to engineer or computer science but isn't it conceivable that the style and conventions for writing a report in the field of computer science might be similar to those in engineering fields?
I know at many college engineering and computer science departments are related.

Kensey: Oh, BS. I've represented myself (successfully) in a lawsuit against my county government, and filed an amicus brief in a case before my state's Supreme Court. In both cases I looked up existing filings to copy the structure, and had a law student critique my final formatting. So you're saying that because I made it look good, I'm prima facie practicing law without a license?

Representing yourself in a lawsuit and writing a document that gives the appearance of a lawyers work are two different things. Now, I'm not a lawyer but I'm sure someone could explain what the exact distinction there is. I would imagine it has to do with the right to defend oneself's in court. I think if you distributed a document around the community that the appearance of legal work you would have an issue. Say perhaps writing a "strongly worded letter" to someone that made you appear to be a lawyer.

My point is that I think engineers have every right to defend their profession, so if people are playing part-time engineer then I can see why an engineer would be upset. It might be that the guy in this situation is just a huge douche though.

I'm an engineer - though of a different sort. Licensing is ostensibly so that when you build a bridge or power plant you have someone Certified(TM) to say 'Yeah we can build this and it won't collapse.' And if it does then you have someone to go after. I'm not willing to say it's a bad thing to require someone be qualified to sign off on a public megastructure.

That said, it also serves the other purpose of a trade guild - keeping everyone else out so they don't compete, thereby artificially keeping rates for the licensed members high. In this way it acts like a union - only shop members are eligible to participate.

Lacy is just full of crap here - Cox would be violating the licensing regs if the city hired him to design their lights, but in this case he's submitting a well reasoned and backed up /opinion/ for further consideration. Which is engineering, but is not doing professional engineering design work on a project. If the city decided to just take Cox's design, then a licensed engineer would have to sign off on it so Somebody is Accountable and all the pointyheads are happy.

Just think of it as a union action protecting NCDOT's right to laze around and do substandard work and you've got the picture here.

CrimsonAndCream: So if government went with his idea the worst that could happen would be that the street would have one more streetlight than it needs.

That's not the worst that could happen.

The worst that could happen is that the addition of the new stop lights causes traffic to back up across a railroad track. The first time this happens, a school bus full of kids from a local orphanage is stuck across the tracks where it is annihilated by an oncoming freight train. The super-elastic bones of the spry, young orphans fly out like an enfilade fire of human remains, squarely directed at a line of people waiting to enter a fundraising event from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. The subsequent lawsuits against the foundation cause its bankruptcy and the fear of copycat suits causes a total worldwide halt to charitable donations. Consequently, diseases targeted by these charitable foundations experience a dramatic resurgence against a worldwide population with no experience against them and therefore no inherent immunities. Soon, the human race is extinguished by small pox. Had humanity not been eradicated by disease, our distant descendants would have eventually discovered a way to prevent the entropy death of the universe. Because no other civilization would ever be capable of such a discovery, the universe ends, quashing all things, everywhere, for all time thereafter.

That's the worst that could happen.

At no point did Cox purport to be an engineer.

He did, however, prove the DOT doesn't have very good engineers on staff if they cannot distinguish between professional and amateur work.

drewkumo: Representing yourself in a lawsuit and writing a document that gives the appearance of a lawyers work are two different things. Now, I'm not a lawyer but I'm sure someone could explain what the exact distinction there is. I would imagine it has to do with the right to defend oneself's in court. I think if you distributed a document around the community that the appearance of legal work you would have an issue.

Well, I've done that too. Finding my county government spectacularly unhelpful with my tax appeal, I wrote up 8 pages or so on "how to appeal your property tax assessment" and have posted it on local message boards and mailing lists and circulated it other ways as well. So far nobody's come after me.

Nuuu: CrimsonAndCream: So if government went with his idea the worst that could happen would be that the street would have one more streetlight than it needs.

That's not the worst that could happen.

The worst that could happen is that the addition of the new stop lights causes traffic to back up across a railroad track. The first time this happens, a school bus full of kids from a local orphanage is stuck across the tracks where it is annihilated by an oncoming freight train. The super-elastic bones of the spry, young orphans fly out like an enfilade fire of human remains, squarely directed at a line of people waiting to enter a fundraising event from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. The subsequent lawsuits against the foundation cause its bankruptcy and the fear of copycat suits causes a total worldwide halt to charitable donations. Consequently, diseases targeted by these charitable foundations experience a dramatic resurgence against a worldwide population with no experience against them and therefore no inherent immunities. Soon, the human race is extinguished by small pox. Had humanity not been eradicated by disease, our distant descendants would have eventually discovered a way to prevent the entropy death of the universe. Because no other civilization would ever be capable of such a discovery, the universe ends, quashing all things, everywhere, for all time thereafter.

That's the worst that could happen.


I was thinking the exact same thing. Depressing.

On the bright side, there would be no one left to worry about it.

I_Hate_Iowa: You can't practice engineering without a license? What the fark does that mean!? You can't do math without a license?

It's called a PE, Professional Engineer certification. It's what allows an engineer to sign off on both their own work and the work of other engineers who do not possess PE certifications. It also makes the engineer liable for any faults in the design they have missed.

There was the famous case of a walkway collapse at a Hyatt Regency hotel in Kansas City back in 1981. The support for the walkway had been changed but the structural engineers in charge didn't bother working out whether or not it would actually work. And the original plans he sent off to the steel company that made the supports, wasn't even a finished plan. As a result the engineers involved lost their licenses, and the engineering firm lost its license to operate.

WhyteRaven74: I_Hate_Iowa: You can't practice engineering without a license? What the fark does that mean!? You can't do math without a license?

It's called a PE, Professional Engineer certification. It's what allows an engineer to sign off on both their own work and the work of other engineers who do not possess PE certifications. It also makes the engineer liable for any faults in the design they have missed.

There was the famous case of a walkway collapse at a Hyatt Regency hotel in Kansas City back in 1981. The support for the walkway had been changed but the structural engineers in charge didn't bother working out whether or not it would actually work. And the original plans he sent off to the steel company that made the supports, wasn't even a finished plan. As a result the engineers involved lost their licenses, and the engineering firm lost its license to operate.

At what point did they sign their title as professional engineer? It was the DOT's responsibility to reject it on a basis of engineering science. not because some pompous dick got pwned by an amateur

all i hear about are budgets for snow removal. tuesday night around 8:30 PM EST, asheville time , i saw dump truck sized vehicles with salt laying mechanisms on the back and plows on the front driving around my area(kenilworth) and it hadn't snowed in ten days.

waste of money?

WhyteRaven74: I_Hate_Iowa: You can't practice engineering without a license? What the fark does that mean!? You can't do math without a license?

It's called a PE, Professional Engineer certification. It's what allows an engineer to sign off on both their own work and the work of other engineers who do not possess PE certifications. It also makes the engineer liable for any faults in the design they have missed.

There was the famous case of a walkway collapse at a Hyatt Regency hotel in Kansas City back in 1981. The support for the walkway had been changed but the structural engineers in charge didn't bother working out whether or not it would actually work. And the original plans he sent off to the steel company that made the supports, wasn't even a finished plan. As a result the engineers involved lost their licenses, and the engineering firm lost its license to operate.

Exactly.

I'm an Engineering student myself and naturally we are all school on the definition of what it takes to be a licensed engineer and what legal obligations and liabilities you have. The issue here seems to be that the quality and professional level of the work are in line with what an Engineer would produce and not a computer scientist.

What I would like to know is, does he have an education in Computer Science (Mathematics in many places) or does he have an education in Software Engineering or Computer Engineering (my field) and is only employed as a computer scientist.

The other concern is that there may be a rogue engineer out there who is not accepting responsibility for his work by putting his name and signature on it.

Kensey: Well, I've done that too. Finding my county government spectacularly unhelpful with my tax appeal, I wrote up 8 pages or so on "how to appeal your property tax assessment" and have posted it on local message boards and mailing lists and circulated it other ways as well. So far nobody's come after me.

Like I said before, I'm not that familiar with the law. I'm sure there's a blurry line that can be crossed. If you put that information up, and someone considered it "legal advise" then that may qualify.

What_Would_Jimi_Do: all i hear about are budgets for snow removal. tuesday night around 8:30 PM EST, asheville time , i saw dump truck sized vehicles with salt laying mechanisms on the back and plows on the front driving around my area(kenilworth) and it hadn't snowed in ten days.

waste of money?

It had however recently become warm enough to melt much of the snow on the mountains into water. This water then trickled onto the roads making them wet, as water tends to do. Though it was 50ish on Tuesday temperature the rest of the week were predicted to be quite cold, into the 20s. Icing the roads now would prevent the water that had melted onto the from turning to dangerous ice when the temperatures dropped again.

drewkumo:
Representing yourself in a lawsuit and writing a document that gives the appearance of a lawyers work are two different things.

What? What does this even farking mean? That I can't do work that sounds too close to what a professional would do because then I would be unintentionally pretending to be a professional?

I go up against lawyers all the time in my job. I argue against them in cases both in writing and verbally. Many of the arguments are about the letter of the law and its interpretation. I have to cite multiple legal precedents to support my cases, and be able to provide responses to their arguments off the cuff. I win far more often than I lose. Since I beat actual properly schooled and certified legal professionals, am I guilty of working in a manner which gives the appearance of a lawyer's work?

Sheesh.

/Does a lawyer's work
//At about 1/20th of the hourly rate they get paid to lose to me