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(Christian Science Monitor)   Joe Biden: If you ignore that whole shutting down the Internet and blocking cell phones to stifle free speech thing, Mubarak is totally not a dictator   (csmonitor.com) divider line 186
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869 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Jan 2011 at 4:49 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-01-28 12:01:10 AM
AREN'T THEY TRYING TO DO THE SAME THING HERE?? WHERE'S THE OUTRAGE???
 
2011-01-28 12:11:14 AM
I actually heard a commentator today make the argument that we must continue to prop up dictatorships because otherwise, the people of the Middle East will elect governments that are unfriendly to US interests. Because they hate us for propping up dictatorships in the Middle East.

/sigh
 
2011-01-28 12:20:10 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: I actually heard a commentator today make the argument that we must continue to prop up dictatorships because otherwise, the people of the Middle East will elect governments that are unfriendly to US interests. Because they hate us for propping up dictatorships in the Middle East.


Well yeah, that's largely why we do it. If we let Average Joehadi elect the leader who best represents them, we'd have to pay more for oil and other goodies, and one of them dang Mooslim countries (though to be fair, we don't just meddle in Muslim countries' affairs, Latin America gets f*cked by us just as hard) might decide that they want nukes too. And then we couldn't bully them around. So we prop up idiots like Mubarak and Musharraf and the Saudis, who oppress the f*ck out of their people but know they're indebted to us, while praying that some of the citizenry there doesn't board a plane and crash it into our buildings. And we tell our people that they hate us because of our freedom.
 
2011-01-28 12:23:23 AM

4chan Ambassador: And we tell our people that they hate us because of our freedom.


The worst part is how many people believe it.
 
2011-01-28 12:32:21 AM
I just want to know WHAR IS GREEN RIBBON?! WHAR?!
 
2011-01-28 12:37:02 AM
I wasn't kidding before. If he gets deposed, I want all of that military aid back. We'll take treasure in lieu of cash. We bought Egypt fair and square!
 
2011-01-28 12:43:24 AM
-welcome to the future we won!!!

9/11
 
2011-01-28 01:08:27 AM
Hey Joe, why are United States citizens currently censored from accessing the website of our embassy in Cairo?

cairo.usembassy.gov
 
2011-01-28 01:30:43 AM

furiousxgeorge: Hey Joe, why are United States citizens currently censored from accessing the website of our embassy in Cairo?

cairo.usembassy.gov


i56.tinypic.com


Unless we sold the Egyptians one of these:

i53.tinypic.com

We're doing it.

Tomorrow should be interesting.
 
2011-01-28 02:16:57 AM
If revolutionaries were trying to overthrow the government here in the U.S. tomorrow, and they were using twitter and facebook to organize, our government would certainly block twitter and facebook.

It's common sense, and has nothing to do with being a dictatorship.
 
2011-01-28 02:25:10 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: they hate us for propping up dictatorships in the Middle East


You misspelled "our freedoms".
 
2011-01-28 02:31:12 AM
Hopefully we have some CIA operatives who will botch an operation ending in disaster, or have a successful operation ending in an even worse disaster.
 
2011-01-28 02:54:44 AM
tallguywithglasseson: Hopefully we have some CIA operatives who will botch an operation ending in disaster, or have a successful operation ending in an even worse disaster.

you mean like Operation Ajax?
 
2011-01-28 03:33:54 AM
Ummmm, nope.

Dictator.
 
2011-01-28 04:05:55 AM
Ahead of a day that could prove decisive, NewsHour host Jim Lehrer asked Biden if the time has "come for President Mubarak of Egypt to go?" Biden answered: "No. I think the time has come for President Mubarak to begin to move in the direction that - to be more responsive to some... of the needs of the people out there."

the obvious follow-up question is would Biden would support regime chage if Mubarak is unwilling to make needed changes.
 
2011-01-28 04:56:10 AM
Wow, very surprising, fark Joe Biden.

///and the troops
 
2011-01-28 05:15:41 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: I actually heard a commentator today make the argument that we must continue to prop up dictatorships because otherwise, the people of the Middle East will elect governments that are unfriendly to US interests. Because they hate us for propping up dictatorships in the Middle East.

/sigh


That's not entirely inaccurate, but it's what you call a short-term/long-term tradeoff. Short term, governments are elected that tell us to go fark ourselves. Longer-term, elected governments lead to democratic economies, which ends in them trading with us anyway.

Those couple intervening years or decades could be pretty uncomfortable, though.
 
2011-01-28 05:22:34 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: I actually heard a commentator today make the argument that we must continue to prop up dictatorships because otherwise, the people of the Middle East will elect governments that are unfriendly to US interests. Because they hate us for propping up dictatorships in the Middle East.

/sigh


1. Say something so unbelievably stupid that intelligent people's brains short circuit as a protective measure
2. Claim victory because no one else disputed your "claim."

It would appear we're on the verge of "the system" making an abrupt jump between two states... May be interesting.
 
2011-01-28 05:25:05 AM
There's no good answer here. No way to gloss over our nation's support of 'presidents' that rule harshly for decades.
 
2011-01-28 05:28:15 AM
Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich
I actually heard a commentator today make the argument that we must continue to prop up dictatorships because otherwise, the people of the Middle East will elect governments that are unfriendly to US interests. Because they hate us for propping up dictatorships in the Middle East.

Exactly what Biden said is absolute gold-
"Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he's been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with - with Israel. ... I would not refer to him as a dictator."

So, he's not not a dictator because Egypt actually has democracy... he's not a dictator because he serves US interests.

I had to re-read that a couple times to make sure it wasn't a hyperbolic Chomsky quote. it's not, he's just coming out and saying it... maybe after Wikileaks all the motherfarkers are just saying, "fark it, they'll find out anyway so let's just stop pretending!"
 
2011-01-28 05:31:22 AM

erik-k: 1. Say something so unbelievably stupid that intelligent people's brains short circuit as a protective measure
2. Claim victory because no one else disputed your "claim."


You have to be careful to inject just enough retardation to get them to mentally go "WTF, surely this guy is retarded" do it too much and they go "WTF why am I listening to this retard"

This is actually a very effective propaganda technique. You can go overboard though, like Sarah Palin did the other night. She went full retard.
 
2011-01-28 05:32:30 AM
I'm getting really sick of the fact that no matter the party or the administration in power, the US keeps propping up dictators if they serve our interests. If Mubarak didn't like the US, we'd probably have spent the last decade or so talking about the need for regime change and pretending Egypt had WMDs.
 
2011-01-28 05:39:23 AM
When Iran was protesting in the streets, our dear leaders were in overwhelming support of the brave freedom fighters.

When Iraqi's were in the street, the U.S. was bombing any large gatherings.

WTF, these guys are hypocrites. The way things are going, Iraq and Afghanistan will be the last countries that don't spawn major liberation movements in the middle east.

fark our so called leaders and especially fark the troops/mercs.
 
2011-01-28 06:20:50 AM
Joe is brilliant so it must be true.
 
2011-01-28 06:38:19 AM
Biden is carrying forward Obama's message laid out in the State of the Union, Winning The Future.

/Biden also said Mubarak is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy
 
2011-01-28 06:42:49 AM

Death to New Rome: When Iran was protesting in the streets, our dear leaders were in overwhelming support of the brave freedom fighters.

When Iraqi's were in the street, the U.S. was bombing any large gatherings.

WTF, these guys are hypocrites. The way things are going, Iraq and Afghanistan will be the last countries that don't spawn major liberation movements in the middle east.

fark our so called leaders and especially fark the troops/mercs.


first off our dear leaders did not overwhelming supporting the Iranian green party. second, what's the over under on the percentage of fark posters that understand what the word hypocrisy means? 5%? the u.s. has been pretty clear over the decades what it desires most of all is stable allies and expanded commerce (democratic governments would be nice, but despotic is ok if that's required for a stable and an at least nominally friendly regime). I don't think we've made a pretense of always backing popular insurrections or nascent democratic movements regardless of their propensity to muck up our interests. the only reason democracy is even a goal at all is because it is assumed that democratic governments will likely provide friendlier governments and more trade opportunities in the long run. ok, you may get some lip service about the desirability of democratic movements at state of the union speeches but those are made for domestic political consumption only.
 
2011-01-28 06:46:11 AM
i.imgur.com

/looking at you subby
 
2011-01-28 06:55:56 AM
Wikileaks (Those fascist farks who I hate) are about to release more cables! WooooHooooo!
 
2011-01-28 07:05:05 AM
This is why we fail in the Middle East.
 
2011-01-28 07:10:04 AM

furiousxgeorge: Hey Joe, why are United States citizens currently censored from accessing the website of our embassy in Cairo?

cairo.usembassy.gov


Probably because it´s routed through Egyptian DNS which are disabled.

/don´t know much about how these interwebby things work
 
2011-01-28 07:22:55 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: I actually heard a commentator today make the argument that we must continue to prop up dictatorships because otherwise, the people of the Middle East will elect governments that are unfriendly to US interests. Because they hate us for propping up dictatorships in the Middle East.

/sigh


Well, it's that exact line of thought which keeps getting us tangled up in absurd adventures in the Middle East.
 
2011-01-28 07:26:20 AM

SchlingFocker: If revolutionaries were trying to overthrow the government here in the U.S. tomorrow, and they were using twitter and facebook to organize, our government would certainly block twitter and facebook.

It's common sense, and has nothing to do with being a dictatorship.


If the govt took away our right to assemble and speech (which shutting down the internet is an attempt to do0 I would say we have taken a step closer to a dictatorship.
 
2011-01-28 07:43:51 AM

CaptainWes: AREN'T THEY TRYING TO DO THE SAME THING HERE?? WHERE'S THE OUTRAGE???


Now, now. You know it's only the right that can't be trusted with power. If we just vote straight democrat and neve allow another republican in office again, that kind of power will never, ever be used for corrupt or evil purposes.

I mean, really, come on.
 
2011-01-28 08:05:37 AM
Look, the USA has propped up dictators for most of her recent history.

Pinochet, Suharto, Pol Pot, the Duvaliers, Saddam Hussein, the enitre Saud royal family, etc.

It's to ensure that the countries follow US policy (trade, foreign, etc). EVEN if it is directly opposed to the desires of the actual population. Because the only way to enact laws that the populace will be in opposition to is to have a strong military dictatorship, so that when people complain, you massacre them.

I mean, Suharto was IN THE PROCESS OF killing hundreds of thousands of people in East Timor, and the USA was actually saying that Suharto was "our kind of guy".

Look it up.

Americans don't know these things because they're not told. The people who suffer and whose families are massacred tend to never forget.

If you go around the world propping up heinous dictators who enact terrible suffering on their populations, but who are good to YOU, you will always face a day of reckoning eventualy.
 
2011-01-28 08:05:39 AM
Sure Joe, and neither is Khamenei.
 
2011-01-28 08:10:07 AM

jakomo002: Look, the USA has propped up dictators for most of her recent history.

Pinochet, Suharto, Pol Pot, the Duvaliers, Saddam Hussein, the enitre Saud royal family, etc.


What's your definition of "propping up", not being at war with a leader for the entirety of his tenure?
 
2011-01-28 08:14:50 AM

wolvernova: What's your definition of "propping up"


Do you have any idea how much aid we send to Egypt each year? And the Muslim brotherhood doesn't see it as humanitarian development, they see it as a subside to the government that actively suppresses them.

That's "propping up."
 
2011-01-28 08:15:18 AM

jakomo002: Look, the USA has propped up dictators for most of her recent history.

Pinochet, Suharto, Pol Pot, the Duvaliers, Saddam Hussein, the enitre Saud royal family, etc.


So it's the US who does this? What does Canada and the EU do while the US is propping up dictators?
 
2011-01-28 08:16:30 AM

jakomo002: Pinochet, Suharto, Pol Pot, the Duvaliers, Saddam Hussein, the enitre Saud royal family, etc.


?
 
2011-01-28 08:20:49 AM

DarnoKonrad: wolvernova: What's your definition of "propping up"

Do you have any idea how much aid we send to Egypt each year? And the Muslim brotherhood doesn't see it as humanitarian development, they see it as a subside to the government that actively suppresses them.

That's "propping up."


We are "propping up" Egypt.

But Pol Pot?
 
2011-01-28 08:22:01 AM

tomWright: CaptainWes: AREN'T THEY TRYING TO DO THE SAME THING HERE?? WHERE'S THE OUTRAGE???

Now, now. You know it's only the right that can't be trusted with power. If we just vote straight democrat and neve allow another republican in office again, that kind of power will never, ever be used for corrupt or evil purposes.

I mean, really, come on.


Except for Bradley Manning's incarceration without trial, you mean. Obama seems to have no problem with treating Manning as an "unlawful enemy combatant" was treated under Bush, however this is something even Bush didn't do to a U.S. citizen. In fact, we were assured by Republicans that this treatment would never be used on U.S. citizens, as such a thing would clearly be illegal. Yet here we are, allowing one of our own to face penalty without trial. Where's the outrage?
 
2011-01-28 08:22:42 AM

SchlingFocker: If revolutionaries were trying to overthrow the government here in the U.S. tomorrow, and they were using twitter and facebook to organize, our government would certainly block twitter and facebook.

It's common sense, and has nothing to do with being a dictatorship.


That would be the exact wrong thing to do. Attempting to shut down free speech and communication would be a very bad idea.
 
2011-01-28 08:23:00 AM

liam76: DarnoKonrad: wolvernova: What's your definition of "propping up"

Do you have any idea how much aid we send to Egypt each year? And the Muslim brotherhood doesn't see it as humanitarian development, they see it as a subside to the government that actively suppresses them.

That's "propping up."

We are "propping up" Egypt.

But Pol Pot?


And for the record so is the EU.


Any country with an international pressence has a hand in these things.
 
2011-01-28 08:23:15 AM
wlovernova: What's your definition of "propping up", not being at war with a leader for the entirety of his tenure?

No, I'm talking about direct military aid (weapons and training) and direct political support.

I'm talking about large amounts of military dudes from South and Central America going to the United States of America to places like the School of the Americas, where they are trained in interrogation, torture and murder.

Then they take their training and head back to their former country to join a death squad and go out and massacre political dissidents or some Jesuit priests, in the name of the regime. The regime that is being funded and trained by the United States to unleash horror on the people.

There's a REASON why South America and Central America have embraced leftist government, and why they've frozen the US out of a bunch of trade agreements (ALBA, etc)

Do you know how I know Chavez ISN'T a dictator? Because if he was, the US would be giving him suitcases full of money to enact policies that would benefit a few American economic or political sectors while impoverishing a wide swath of his own country. And if the people revolted, Chavez would be "their guy" to kill and jail dissidents to his hearts content, and at no time would the money train stop until Chavez turned rogue.

Ask you average Filipino how happy they were that Ferdinand Marcos was the recipient of billions of dollars of US funding while he was in power.
 
2011-01-28 08:29:23 AM

DarnoKonrad: wolvernova: What's your definition of "propping up"

Do you have any idea how much aid we send to Egypt each year? And the Muslim brotherhood doesn't see it as humanitarian development, they see it as a subside to the government that actively suppresses them.

That's "propping up."


Read the portion I quoted. I was challenging his list of tyrants he said we're propping up, not talking about Egypt. Or you can just mind your own business.
 
2011-01-28 08:29:58 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: tomWright: CaptainWes: AREN'T THEY TRYING TO DO THE SAME THING HERE?? WHERE'S THE OUTRAGE???

Now, now. You know it's only the right that can't be trusted with power. If we just vote straight democrat and neve allow another republican in office again, that kind of power will never, ever be used for corrupt or evil purposes.

I mean, really, come on.

Except for Bradley Manning's incarceration without trial, you mean. Obama seems to have no problem with treating Manning as an "unlawful enemy combatant" was treated under Bush, however this is something even Bush didn't do to a U.S. citizen. In fact, we were assured by Republicans that this treatment would never be used on U.S. citizens, as such a thing would clearly be illegal. Yet here we are, allowing one of our own to face penalty without trial. Where's the outrage?


He will have a fair trial and be in jail until he is an old man.
 
2011-01-28 08:31:14 AM
We should really have more threads on this. Looking at the live view on Al Jazeera, it seems like a revolution is going down in Egypt.

The internet was cut off completely in Egypt, SMS was cut off, so the protesters organized around Friday prayers at mosques and just hit the streets.

In Suez, they've freed prisoners from the police station and set armoured trucks on fire.

In Alexandria, some police have put down their helmets and arms.

They've burned a bunch of NDP (ruling party) HQs.

In Cairo, one girl is confirmed dead, probably a dozen or more international journalists have been arrested and beaten. The journalists and analysts seem stunned. I'm stunned. Mohammed ElBaradei has been cordoned off in a mosque. Ayman Nour is in intensive care in hospital with a head injury.

There are hundreds of thousands of people on the streets right now, occupying bridges and central squares. It's chaos. It's mid-afternoon Cairo time. Nobody knows what will happen.
 
2011-01-28 08:32:18 AM

jakomo002: Do you know how I know Chavez ISN'T a dictator?


This is where you go off the deep end.

I am fully aware that the US has backed some farked up regimes but it appears in your head that they have done so solely in opposition to freedom loving democracies.

If your litmus test for being a dictator has more to do with does the US back them than what kind of policies they are enacting you need to grow up.
 
2011-01-28 08:37:46 AM

wolvernova: DarnoKonrad: wolvernova: What's your definition of "propping up"

Do you have any idea how much aid we send to Egypt each year? And the Muslim brotherhood doesn't see it as humanitarian development, they see it as a subside to the government that actively suppresses them.

That's "propping up."

Read the portion I quoted. I was challenging his list of tyrants he said we're propping up, not talking about Egypt. Or you can just mind your own business.




I am minding my own business on a public forum. It's not your private email account.

Egypt is typical of those places is the point. And you're not challenging anything, just drawing attention to your ignorance of American foreign policy.
 
2011-01-28 08:45:31 AM

badhatharry: He will have a fair trial and be in jail until he is an old man.


I don't doubt that he'll be in jail until he's an old man, but I know the trial will be unfair. They're trying to make him crack psychologically with abnormal treatment in his prison, that's already unfair, and will certainly affect the trial.
 
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