I guess I could tell people to turn it off and on again all day..

The government will just fill those positions with private contractors via Haliburton.

Just like it does in the Middle-East.

cbackous: I guess I could tell people to turn it off and on again all day..

Or have to call IT to plug in a mouse.

//Does the grunt IT work at my office, while the main IT guys sit at HQ a few hours away, in addition to regular stuff like software dev.

The military industrial complex strikes again, using our tax dollars to sit around and surf fark all day being a right wing troll is hard work, but someone's gotta do it.

"Reboot"

"Wait 15 minutes and try again"

Am I hired? Cause thats about all my IT department does. Biggest department in the company. I could save us millions to have a recording that plays those two comments on a loop when you call the helpless desk.

IT is only in demand because people are too lazy to fix their own computers/printers/servers/coding.

Once people figure out the secret to IT *cough*searching google*cough* it will lose its appeal and will soon join the other professions that used to be hot and then got cooled off(nursing, law, education, etc).

Hell half the people that do IT just do it so they can transition themselves to get towards the business end of things, the other half are simply consultants.

They will just look to India for Outsourcing a job that would pay my 70k a year for 20k.

The price is merely your soul and will to live. 30 years as a drone to earn a comfortable retirement for your hollowed out shell.

Only to find that the government no longer can borrow the money to pay for your retirement.

My brother works in university IT security and he's been saying this for years.

LegacyDL: IT is only in demand because people are too lazy to fix their own computers/printers/servers/coding.

Yeah, that's the ticket. I think the legal secretaries here would totally know what to do about the DNS errors popping up in the event logs of our Exchange server resulting in occasional NDRs. The only reason they haven't learned all that stuff yet is because I'm just holding their hands.

LegacyDL Quote 2011-01-27 11:54:43 AM
IT is only in demand because people are too lazy to fix their own computers/printers/servers/coding.

Once people figure out the secret to IT *cough*searching google*cough* it will lose its appeal and will soon join the other professions that used to be hot and then got cooled off(nursing, law, education, etc).

Hell half the people that do IT just do it so they can transition themselves to get towards the business end of things, the other half are simply consultants.


>>>


Bob we need to expand our wifi infrastructure and link up 2 remote offices securely.

Don't worry sir, I have IT figured out, I'll just search Google!

Brilliant! Fire IT and raises for all of us!

"Reboot"

"Wait 15 minutes and try again"

Am I hired? Cause thats about all my IT department does. Biggest department in the company. I could save us millions to have a recording that plays those two comments on a loop when you call the helpless desk.

I've worked for 3 very large corporations (fortune 50) and this has been the exact case in all scenarios. It took me 10 weeks to get my first system here, and that was the wrong one. So the real question is, "are you willing to sit on your smug, do-nothing butt all day, taking only one 3 hour lunch then trashing all your emails/voicemails and doing absolutely nothing?" Sign here:_______

JMel Quote 2011-01-27 11:52:22 AM

Am I hired? Cause thats about all my IT department does. Biggest department in the company. I could save us millions to have a recording that plays those two comments on a loop when you call the helpless desk.


>>>

Every time I call the help desk I want to smash my head in. But that's only because 15 hour wonders who couldn't tell you the difference between windows and mac and only read pre-determined sentences then submit a ticket to elevate the issue if their ignorance can't resolve it. most of the time they want to get you off the phone quickly so they can get back to surfing the web and talking on their cell phone.

And they will quit after 6 months because of the bullshiat 8570 rules and idiotic way we run things.

From the headline: "excellent pay"
From the article: "Government continues to have trouble competing with higher salaries in the private sector"

Pensions help maintain quality of life, if only we could get the people who promise to fund them to fund them... really complex stuff.

AcneVulgaris: The price is merely your soul and will to live. 30 years as a drone to earn a comfortable retirement for your hollowed out shell.

Only to find that the government no longer can borrow the money to pay for your retirement.

What if I told you 'insane' was working fifty hours a week in some office for fifty years at the end of which they tell you to piss off; ending up in some retirement village hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time? Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?

LegacyDL: IT is only in demand because people are too lazy to fix their own computers/printers/servers/coding.

Once people figure out the secret to IT *cough*searching google*cough* it will lose its appeal and will soon join the other professions that used to be hot and then got cooled off(nursing, law, education, etc).

Hell half the people that do IT just do it so they can transition themselves to get towards the business end of things, the other half are simply consultants.

Know how I know you don't know what you're talking about?

You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

That's great if the "Grey Ceiling" (people who won't retire) really retires. It's not likely.

bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

HAHA...

The average private sector worker gets about $60k/y if you count salary + benefits. The average government worker gets almost double that because of the ridiculous taxpayer-funded benefits and pensions.

We're broke.

dalevywasbri: Pensions help maintain quality of life, if only we could get the people who promise to fund them to fund them... really complex stuff.

It's hard, because divide and conquer is so effective.

If I'm some dude making 20K working in a warehouse; why do I give a damn whether or not some college-educated teacher making 68K a year gets a pension? I'm not going to get a pension whether she does or not. There's nothing in it for me.

So when some RW politician comes along and tells me that he's gonna stick it to those "parasites," I get amped up.

You know why... because no one is fighting for a real universal pension. Social Security is a joke. They don't even pretend it's adequate anymore.

bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs Linux all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

//FTFY
//Oh Shiat, they're the same thing now.

The_Pirate Quote 2011-01-27 12:01:49 PM
bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

HAHA...


>>

You can laugh but it's true. I have seen the IT dept at my company run around fixing virus outbreaks, windows corruptions, spyware, slowdown caused by everything from spyware viruses and registry errors, windows updates corrupting systems, etc.

Osx is such a superior platform in every respect, and deployment is built in with ARD, rather than buying expensive applications then learning how stupid they are like Altiris.

LegacyDL: IT is only in demand because people are too lazy to fix their own computers/printers/servers/coding.

Once people figure out the secret to IT *cough*searching google*cough* it will lose its appeal and will soon join the other professions that used to be hot and then got cooled off(nursing, law, education, etc).

Hell half the people that do IT just do it so they can transition themselves to get towards the business end of things, the other half are simply consultants.

Nope, they are still too lazy, even after learning it.

People ask me my IT secrets, and I tell them "Google". They still call my desk before calling the "official" IT people.

Big Al: The_Pirate Quote 2011-01-27 12:01:49 PM
bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

HAHA...


>>

You can laugh but it's true. I have seen the IT dept at my company run around fixing virus outbreaks, windows corruptions, spyware, slowdown caused by everything from spyware viruses and registry errors, windows updates corrupting systems, etc.

Osx is such a superior platform in every respect, and deployment is built in with ARD, rather than buying expensive applications then learning how stupid they are like Altiris.

If your network is set up properly this is a non issue. Virus on your computer? Reimage it tonight. Problem solved.

LegacyDL: IT is only in demand because people are too lazy to fix their own computers/printers/servers/coding.

Once people figure out the secret to IT *cough*searching google*cough* it will lose its appeal and will soon join the other professions that used to be hot and then got cooled off(nursing, law, education, etc).

Hell half the people that do IT just do it so they can transition themselves to get towards the business end of things, the other half are simply consultants.

Therein lies the problem. Sure you can "Google" how tos for certain things, but if you don't really know what you're doing you can end up making things worse.

IT Professionals (not your "geeks") understand the principles behind issues, not just following instructions on how to remedy them.

The people who call IT and are told to reboot and then berate them because it seems too simple a solution are also the same people too dumb to realize they actually don't have an issue. :P

The_Pirate: Big Al: The_Pirate Quote 2011-01-27 12:01:49 PM
bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

HAHA...


>>

You can laugh but it's true. I have seen the IT dept at my company run around fixing virus outbreaks, windows corruptions, spyware, slowdown caused by everything from spyware viruses and registry errors, windows updates corrupting systems, etc.

Osx is such a superior platform in every respect, and deployment is built in with ARD, rather than buying expensive applications then learning how stupid they are like Altiris.

If your network is set up properly this is a non issue. Virus on your computer? Reimage it tonight. Problem solved.

That'd be nice. Ours is a hodgepodge. I'm just a warm body to press keys, but everything else requires shipping the computer to HQ(they won't give me the image for some odd reason), and waiting.

It's also damn near impossible to get people to trust the server for storage of work, even though the server has never gone *poof* like their computers have.

Parent's basements will soon empty of unemployed geeks that attended college but couldn't get a job at starbucks because they were "over qualified".

bulok: The people who call IT and are told to reboot and then berate them because it seems too simple a solution are also the same people too dumb to realize they actually don't have an issue. :P

.... You're Welcome!!!

RussianPooper: I like how the only thing people think IT does is help desk.

That is all they are exposed to, the help desk side of things.

I love when I get to do actual IT stuff and not just help desk, but it is pretty rare anymore.

xynix:
It's happening in the private sector too. We've always had problems finding good IT folks and the .COM crash didn't help. A lot of students who were going into IT switched during 2003 so instead of having more come into the industry in 2007 we had much less than we needed.

In addition to that we have IT burn out where people leave the industry all together. I've had two friends move from IT, one went to go drive trucks, the other started a small produce company and drives trucks.

The money is good though and I try to encourage everyone I can to get into the field. An average salary of $70k a year and after 10 years you can easily be making $150k a year.


Uhhh, no. Really, no. Ten years ago, someone with a BS in CS, 2-3 years of real Oracle experience, maybe a year in Oracle Apps experience would get you $120-150. Today, it's an MBA, 5-8 years Oracle experience plus must have worked in every programming environment known to man for $65-80K/year AND they'll work you to death and typically offer little in return.

Glory days of IT are over.

Eshkar: Parent's basements will soon empty of unemployed geeks that attended college but couldn't get a job at starbucks because they were "over qualified".

That's a bit optimistic.

The coveted government jobs will go to 2 categories of people:

(1) the uberexperienced techmasters who are working in positions beneath them.
(2) the well-connected.

Recent grads are, as always, screwed.

bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

notsureifserious.jpg

meat0918: The_Pirate: Big Al: The_Pirate Quote 2011-01-27 12:01:49 PM
bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

HAHA...


>>

You can laugh but it's true. I have seen the IT dept at my company run around fixing virus outbreaks, windows corruptions, spyware, slowdown caused by everything from spyware viruses and registry errors, windows updates corrupting systems, etc.

Osx is such a superior platform in every respect, and deployment is built in with ARD, rather than buying expensive applications then learning how stupid they are like Altiris.

If your network is set up properly this is a non issue. Virus on your computer? Reimage it tonight. Problem solved.

That'd be nice. Ours is a hodgepodge. I'm just a warm body to press keys, but everything else requires shipping the computer to HQ(they won't give me the image for some odd reason), and waiting.

It's also damn near impossible to get people to trust the server for storage of work, even though the server has never gone *poof* like their computers have.

Yeah. There's not much you can do if the network was set up improperly in the first place. My company does managed it services and I have to deal with this shiat every day because they refuse to force users to store info on the servers.

RussianPooper: I like how the only thing people think IT does is help desk.

Of course it isn't just that. Ours frequently likes to change around the server names and software license locations without telling anyone. Which oddly then spurs more Help Desk calls....

flaminio: bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

notsureifserious.jpg

He's probably serious... And wrong.

RussianPooper: I like how the only thing people think IT does is help desk.
This.

"The flash player plugin has crashed."

Hair Salad: RussianPooper: I like how the only thing people think IT does is help desk.
This.

TROOF

HotSalsaZoot: Uhhh, no. Really, no. Ten years ago, someone with a BS in CS, 2-3 years of real Oracle experience, maybe a year in Oracle Apps experience would get you $120-150. Today, it's an MBA, 5-8 years Oracle experience plus must have worked in every programming environment known to man for $65-80K/year AND they'll work you to death and typically offer little in return.

Glory days of IT are over.

You're talking about DBAs. That's one tiny aspect of IT. Trust me, people that actually know system and network architecture are making more than ever.

The_Gallant_Gallstone: It's hard, because divide and conquer is so effective.

If I'm some dude making 20K working in a warehouse; why do I give a damn whether or not some college-educated teacher making 68K a year gets a pension? I'm not going to get a pension whether she does or not. There's nothing in it for me.

So when some RW politician comes along and tells me that he's gonna stick it to those "parasites," I get amped up.

You know why... because no one is fighting for a real universal pension. Social Security is a joke. They don't even pretend it's adequate anymore.

AFAIK that is not the argument. the argument is two fold.

First they cut down the tax progression and create what is euphemistically referred to as a "larger tax base" or as anyone with an understanding of the English language would refer to it they tax poor people more. They proceed to throw their arms up in the air and proclaim they can't possibly pay for it now. (The ultimate extension of this is called the "Fair Tax")

Second they start to rip unions and how they hurt production and this and that. Ultimately people get duped because they don't get both sides of the story, yea unions do decrease production. But production is only as good as its increase to the quality of life, which unions do (ie you are happier if you have more control/flexibility with regards to hours and what not) so they are asking to you exchange happiness for consumer happiness... its a shiat deal. And people get all jacked up and call other people selfish.

IT worker. Just got a 5% raise


/woot!

Big Al: The_Pirate Quote 2011-01-27 12:01:49 PM
bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

HAHA...


>>

You can laugh but it's true. I have seen the IT dept at my company run around fixing virus outbreaks, windows corruptions, spyware, slowdown caused by everything from spyware viruses and registry errors, windows updates corrupting systems, etc.

Osx is such a superior platform in every respect, and deployment is built in with ARD, rather than buying expensive applications then learning how stupid they are like Altiris.

Your IT department sucks. Virus outbreak? Spyware? Not in a looooong time, sparky. A proper MS network with proper safeguards and proper GP restrictions doesn't really have a problem with this. I haven't seen one in at least seven years and I support ~4000 machines in an educational environment. Is it perfect? Naw. But, I can just about guarantee neither is your mythical OSX land of puppies and kittens where the pillows are oh so fluffy. I'm not automatically a MacOS hater, but most enterprise level software isn't written for it and most people don't know how to use it. You have to support the world you live in, not the one you wish you did.

/State IT worker getting a kick.

Many older IT workers postponed their retirement when the economy turned south, but they will still eventually leave.

So they do not in fact possess the gift of immortality - thank you for that useful piece of information.

Hmmm... State IT work != great pay. The article did say that states had problems getting and retaining good IT workers because they couldn't match private industry wages. Plus the fact that most states have older IT infrastructure to begin with, they tend to keep equipment in us for far longer than is reasonable, and when they do replace equipment, the bidding process pretty much ensures that the new installation will use proprietary hardware that does not meet private companies standards, it will be overpriced, and it will be undersupported. Training will be cursory, so when anything mildly complex happens, the vendor will be called in to "consult" on the issue.

Just as an example. 10 years ago I was brought in for a tour of the Kansas City (yes, I know this is a city, not state. It's just an example of government sluggishness overall) IT department, including the data center. They were still using Token Ring networks (and not the UTP cabling type, but the Coax type), and the servers were mostly old P2 servers running NT 4.51, with a few newer boxes with Server 2000 where new projects required it. Not a great setup.

The avg gov worker does not make 2x private to the dbag above. Bullshiat x2 on that. In reality you trade great pay for job security, that is about the only thing that is a benefit in working for the gov (state/fed). You don't read the news one day and figure out your co was full of shiat and the stock is now worth 50 cents and you don't have a job. With the Gov, you already knew that, but you aren't gonna get cut.

HotSalsaZoot: Uhhh, no. Really, no. Ten years ago, someone with a BS in CS, 2-3 years of real Oracle experience, maybe a year in Oracle Apps experience would get you $120-150. Today, it's an MBA, 5-8 years Oracle experience plus must have worked in every programming environment known to man for $65-80K/year AND they'll work you to death and typically offer little in return.

Glory days of IT are over.

It depends on the company. Some companies pay their IT for shiat and treat them like shiat, and it shows. The companies I've done work for treat their employees very well. Not the uber gods that they were once treated as, though.

FTFAFor several years state governments have warned that the graying of the baby boom generation would result in a "retirement wave" of public-sector employees whose institutional knowledge wouldn't be easily replaced.


That's a bad thing? I imagine a lot of those old geezers are part of the problem. Get some young blood in there and see how they can streamline things for more efficiency.

As to all the IT bashers in this thread: Call Centers and Help Desk does not encompass all of IT thankyouverymuch.

godofusa.com: The average private sector worker gets about $60k/y if you count salary + benefits. The average government worker gets almost double that because of the ridiculous taxpayer-funded benefits and pensions.

We're broke.

yeah, none of that is accurate.

/Government worker
//Does not make double $60k
///Does not have a pension, we get 401k matching like everyone else
////We pay about what everyone else pays for benefits
////slashies

I work for a government agency

and I'm currently teaching intro to computer classes / office training for employees

we have a woman who saves all her documents into a single word document.... and scrolls....

So yeah, an IT department is needed because apparently some people can't be trusted to google.

Geotpf: From the headline: "excellent pay"
From the article: "Government continues to have trouble competing with higher salaries in the private sector"

It's the benefits that really sell it. The US government doesn't skimp on benefits.

netweavr: The government will just fill those positions with private contractors via Haliburton.

Just like it does in the Middle-East.

I work for the State of CA and at 33 I am the youngest in my work group and as you look around IT, all you see are bald heads and gray hair. The stat is something like 65-75% of staff are within 5 years of retirement.

There have been many hiring freezes so there are not many younger workers in California.

The age of the department is apparent in the equipment that was installed and the policies in place. They actually said wireless was scary. Even with WPA2 AES encryption, web authentication and for our transactions we have the software encrypted and the connection is encrypted.

RFC 1925

Network Working Group R. Callon, Editor
Request for Comments: 1925 IOOF
Category: Informational 1 April 1996

The Twelve Networking Truths

Status of this Memo

This memo provides information for the Internet community. This memo
does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution of
this memo is unlimited.

Abstract

This memo documents the fundamental truths of networking for the
Internet community. This memo does not specify a standard, except in
the sense that all standards must implicitly follow the fundamental
truths.

Acknowledgements

The truths described in this memo result from extensive study over an
extended period of time by many people, some of whom did not intend
to contribute to this work. The editor merely has collected these
truths, and would like to thank the networking community for
originally illuminating these truths.

1. Introduction

This Request for Comments (RFC) provides information about the
fundamental truths underlying all networking. These truths apply to
networking in general, and are not limited to TCP/IP, the Internet,
or any other subset of the networking community.

2. The Fundamental Truths

(1) It Has To Work.

(2) No matter how hard you push and no matter what the priority,
you can't increase the speed of light.

(2a) (corollary). No matter how hard you try, you can't make a
baby in much less than 9 months. Trying to speed this up
*might* make it slower, but it won't make it happen any
quicker.

(3) With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is
not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they
are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them
as they fly overhead.

(4) Some things in life can never be fully appreciated nor
understood unless experienced firsthand. Some things in
networking can never be fully understood by someone who neither
builds commercial networking equipment nor runs an operational
network.

(5) It is always possible to aglutenate multiple separate problems
into a single complex interdependent solution. In most cases
this is a bad idea.

(6) It is easier to move a problem around (for example, by moving
the problem to a different part of the overall network
architecture) than it is to solve it.

(6a) (corollary). It is always possible to add another level of
indirection.

(7) It is always something

(7a) (corollary). Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick any two (you can't
have all three).

(8) It is more complicated than you think.

(9) For all resources, whatever it is, you need more.

(9a) (corollary) Every networking problem always takes longer to
solve than it seems like it should.

(10) One size never fits all.

(11) Every old idea will be proposed again with a different name and
a different presentation, regardless of whether it works.

(11a) (corollary). See rule 6a.

(12) In protocol design, perfection has been reached not when there
is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take
away.

Security Considerations

This RFC raises no security issues. However, security protocols are
subject to the fundamental networking truths.

References

The references have been deleted in order to protect the guilty and
avoid enriching the lawyers.

I've been planning on taking courses at the local community college to get my Microsoft Certification, so this is good news to me.

Your Black Muslim Credit Union: In reality you trade great pay for job security, that is about the only thing that is a benefit in working for the gov (state/fed).

Assuming you're highly skilled. If you're not highly skilled, the government as an employer is even more attractive.

GookNukem: You have to support the world you live in, not the one you wish you did.

Quoted For Truth

(Even though I love my Macs/OS X and have seen them widely used in a university setting, I don't think they're appropriate as the sole solution for a large enterprise.)

bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

If you think your average office worker has difficulty with a PC, hand them a Mac.

Us:
"That's not compatible with Mac."
"We don't support Mac."
"You have to run it in a Windows emulator."

Them:
"What's a 'web browser'? Is that Google/Bing?"
"My 'Start' button, what's that?"
"It's asking for my network login. It's never done that. I'm going to reboot."
"I just clicked okay on the errors, but no one has called me yet."

As long as there are non-IT people, you will need IT people and support departments. If you think the "Help Desk" is helpless, it's because the Help Desk doesn't like you and knows you're a complete moron.

Shut up and reboot.

ID-10 T error.

Jim DiGriz: Hmmm... State IT work != great pay. The article did say that states had problems getting and retaining good IT workers because they couldn't match private industry wages. Plus the fact that most states have older IT infrastructure to begin with, they tend to keep equipment in us for far longer than is reasonable, and when they do replace equipment, the bidding process pretty much ensures that the new installation will use proprietary hardware that does not meet private companies standards, it will be overpriced, and it will be undersupported. Training will be cursory, so when anything mildly complex happens, the vendor will be called in to "consult" on the issue.

Just as an example. 10 years ago I was brought in for a tour of the Kansas City (yes, I know this is a city, not state. It's just an example of government sluggishness overall) IT department, including the data center. They were still using Token Ring networks (and not the UTP cabling type, but the Coax type), and the servers were mostly old P2 servers running NT 4.51, with a few newer boxes with Server 2000 where new projects required it. Not a great setup.

Also I totally second this

We can't even run the newest version of office on the few macs we have, b/c our server is too old to be compatible. It's sad. We also still have a machine that uses DOS. It's horrible. They won't spend the money b/c the tax payers would freak.

Jobber8742: ///Does not have a pension, we get 401k matching like everyone else

You living in one of those red states?

RussianPooper: I like how the only thing people think IT does is help desk.

Add another to the "this" chorus.

Threads like these, and the attitudes, ignorance and arrogance expressed in them are just another reminder of the horrible way IT people are typically treated... the last group that is socially acceptable to mock and deride to their face... even lawyers get more respect culturally. "I set up my home PC just fine - you must be an idiot!" Ugh.

That said, I'll believe the job boom when I see it. Anybody in Balto/DC need a warm body to fill an abuse-laden and under-appreciated position? Sigh.

Macs in an enterprise environment? How are those Xserves working out for you 'hybrid' shops?

Also, after 10 years in the industry and putting in my time on a helpdesk I can say with certainty that you all get shiatty support because your employer either outsourced your helpdesk, or the domestic helpdesk you have is vastly underpaid because outsourcing tanked good support staff's market value.

You get what you pay for. 10 years ago it was possible to make a good living just taking inbound support calls and being good at it. Now, most help desks are treated the same as call centers, as though troubleshooting were exactly the same as customer service... Smart people will not work in this environment for long.

Helpdesks used to be like the Farm team of IT. Young guys/gals got hired in and either sank or swam. The ones who could swim got that 1-3 years of experience that was required to get an analyst or senior level position, then the 3-5 required for an admin level position, then the 5+ for an engineering level position. It worked out for me, but, that same path is nearly impossible to take now in most of the industry.

bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: Smart people will not work in this environment for long.

They will if they have no other choice.

Jobber8742: godofusa.com: The average private sector worker gets about $60k/y if you count salary + benefits. The average government worker gets almost double that because of the ridiculous taxpayer-funded benefits and pensions.

We're broke.

yeah, none of that is accurate.

/Government worker
//Does not make double $60k
///Does not have a pension, we get 401k matching like everyone else
////We pay about what everyone else pays for benefits
////slashies

Maybe you personally, but on average, a US government worker gets 40k in benefits, a private employee 10k. Why do you think government at a federal and state level has over 1 trillion dollars in underfunded pension obligations alone?

Yeah osx, real great for a large business; spend twice the cash to get an OS/Hardware that you will have to boot to win7 (buy a license key too) to get some of the shiat you need to do anyway. Linux: flashy desktop interface (make it look like OSX and fool half the morons), solid servers. Run it on good hardware with a semi competent IT staff and you are doing much better for your $.

The_Gallant_Gallstone: Jobber8742: ///Does not have a pension, we get 401k matching like everyone else

You living in one of those red states?

nope Federal Government. We do have other aspects to our retirement plan, but the TSP (401k) matching is the main aspect. The days of putting in your 30 years and getting 60% of your pay in a pension are gone for us newer employees. What you always hear about are the older people around here, they did not have it taken away when it was changed. They'll still get that sweet deal.

SFSailor: Threads like these, and the attitudes, ignorance and arrogance expressed in them are just another reminder of the horrible way IT people are typically treated... the last group that is socially acceptable to mock and deride to their face... even lawyers get more respect culturally. "I set up my home PC just fine - you must be an idiot!" Ugh.

And yet, just like when people meet a lawyer or a doctor the first thing they start doing is asking for free legal or medical advice, the first thing they say when they find out you're IT is "Say... I've got this problem on my pc..."

As someone who is starting his masters in computer engineering this summer...I'm actually getting a kick out of this.

/utter terror replaced with cautious optimism?

BigMevy: SFSailor: Threads like these, and the attitudes, ignorance and arrogance expressed in them are just another reminder of the horrible way IT people are typically treated... the last group that is socially acceptable to mock and deride to their face... even lawyers get more respect culturally. "I set up my home PC just fine - you must be an idiot!" Ugh.

And yet, just like when people meet a lawyer or a doctor the first thing they start doing is asking for free legal or medical advice, the first thing they say when they find out you're IT is "Say... I've got this problem on my pc..."

I tell them to stop looking at porn.

bump: "Reboot"

"Wait 15 minutes and try again"

Am I hired? Cause thats about all my IT department does. Biggest department in the company. I could save us millions to have a recording that plays those two comments on a loop when you call the helpless desk.

I've worked for 3 very large corporations (fortune 50) and this has been the exact case in all scenarios. It took me 10 weeks to get my first system here, and that was the wrong one. So the real question is, "are you willing to sit on your smug, do-nothing butt all day, taking only one 3 hour lunch then trashing all your emails/voicemails and doing absolutely nothing?" Sign here:_______

There are different aspects of IT, and lots of depth. The people and situations you are describing are of a helpdesk employee. They represent the kiddie pool next to the Olympic sized pool. They have their own issues. I think the article is talking about more technical IT folk, the ones in the deep end of the Olympic pool.

/I am such a technical folk

RussianPooper: I like how the only thing people think IT does is help desk.

I believe this is part of the problem. If IT does their job well, and the servers/services keep working correctly, all the end users see the IT staff doing is help desk. I've had people demand that I not wear headphones and listen to music because they might have a problem, and just want to be able to yell at me. They have no idea that we spend most of our time keeping things running smoothly...er...in theory.

>> Lots of IT jobs to be available soon

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

clip - Information technology has turned into one of the biggest job-growth disappointments of all time.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_39/b4002001.htm

RussianPooper: Also, the days of just taking a few classes and expecting a bunch of money are over because there are a lot more people that know how to do all this stuff. If you have good experience and can understand how to do more than the textbooks show, you can make decent money. If you can combine it with knowledge of another field (such as finance) you can be invaluable, since most IT people only know IT.

I have to disagree. People may have more gadgets and understand computer basics but they are still just as clueless. You won't have to show them how to use word but anything outside of the absolute basics are foreign still. More connected and plugged in does not mean they know what they are doing.

BigMevy:
And yet, just like when people meet a lawyer or a doctor the first thing they start doing is asking for free legal or medical advice, the first thing they say when they find out you're IT is "Say... I've got this problem on my pc..."

I heart you so much.

I know of a lot of fellow ArcGIS Analyst/Developers that are about to retire. These old bastards have been around since the Avenue/AML days and have left a mountain of code update work for the next generation to sort out.

Municipal and State government mapping departments, however, aren't the best GIS positions out there; get a job with an Electric Membership Cooperative like I did and you'll strike paydirt.

And as a side gripe....as bad as the economy is, I would think it would be easier to find good developers. I am having such a hard time finding a good Java developer. They just don't seem to be unemployed at all. Any advice on where to look?

Jobber8742: What you always hear about are the older people around here, they did not have it taken away when it was changed. They'll still get that sweet deal.

Plot bloody rebellion. Join the PSL or grin and bear it.

JoeCamelToe: I tell them to stop looking at porn.

You sound female.

As someone who does IT for the government I'm getting a kick...

If you aren't getting a positive response from your IT department, maybe it has something to do with you. Maybe you are high maintenance. Maybe you keep screwing things up, because you don't know the difference between a computer and a box of rocks. Maybe it is your attitude.

The problem with outsourcing is that you end up paying $50/hr for a low level technician who only earns $15/hr. That's not an exaggeration of the mark up. The contract company has to pay their workers the going rate, they have overhead, and they want to make a hefty profit. Any company or agency that has enough work to justify it is better off hiring in house IT.

Don't forget the mindless and massive bureaucracy, the ungodly amounts of wasted money, acres of cubicle farms, a higher proportion of clinically brain-dead employees, and a socially sterilized work environment.

Other than that, it's a good living.

LegacyDL: IT is only in demand because people are too lazy to fix their own computers/printers/servers/coding.

Once people figure out the secret to IT *cough*searching google*cough* it will lose its appeal and will soon join the other professions that used to be hot and then got cooled off(nursing, law, education, etc).

because google can help a complete technical novice to set up a series of linux servers, or an entire network ,DNS, nameservers, or countless other things that IT actually does besides fix little problems for the stupid and/or uninitiated. you're retarded

ventmonkey: And as a side gripe....as bad as the economy is, I would think it would be easier to find good developers. I am having such a hard time finding a good Java developer. They just don't seem to be unemployed at all. Any advice on where to look?

By "good" do you "unattainably perfect given the meager wage I'm offering"?

I'm not saying that's the case, but part of this economic death we're experiencing involves employers expecting demigods to work for practically nothing.

hufnmouth: bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs Linux all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

//FTFY
//Oh Shiat, they're the same thing now.

Not if you factor in price.

What working in IT is really like.

Link (new window)

Used to work for a boss stupider than Jen.

HotSalsaZoot: xynix:
It's happening in the private sector too. We've always had problems finding good IT folks and the .COM crash didn't help. A lot of students who were going into IT switched during 2003 so instead of having more come into the industry in 2007 we had much less than we needed.

In addition to that we have IT burn out where people leave the industry all together. I've had two friends move from IT, one went to go drive trucks, the other started a small produce company and drives trucks.

The money is good though and I try to encourage everyone I can to get into the field. An average salary of $70k a year and after 10 years you can easily be making $150k a year.


Uhhh, no. Really, no. Ten years ago, someone with a BS in CS, 2-3 years of real Oracle experience, maybe a year in Oracle Apps experience would get you $120-150. Today, it's an MBA, 5-8 years Oracle experience plus must have worked in every programming environment known to man for $65-80K/year AND they'll work you to death and typically offer little in return.

Glory days of IT are over.

I am a DBA and with only a mid-range experience and making your $65-80k as most DBAs I know are (and I am involved in many DBA user groups). From all the articles I am reading the demand for both data professionals (DBAs, architects, etc.) and IT security officials is expected to dramatically increase in the next 10 years. You don't realize how many small to mid-size business like law firms, medical offices, etc. still have no IT infrastructure at all.

My first ten years in the workforce I did a number of IT jobs, some enjoyable, some not. Then one day I realized I had been doing the same repairs and upgrades for two years and even though i occasionally got the chance to program or at least script a little I had hit the wall. Wasn't on the management track, had a good reputation as a troubleshooter but the challenge just wasn't there anymore.

So I took a 'sabbatical' and drove a Boston taxi for a little over a year. Best move I ever made. Learned 15 ways to get to Fenway Paaahk at rush hour. Tried every diner from Southie to Somerville. Cleared my head out real good. Got my next IT job driving that cab. But I got downsized two years later, which was a real shame; that was a great gig.

Big Al: The_Pirate Quote 2011-01-27 12:01:49 PM
bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

HAHA...


>>

You can laugh but it's true. I have seen the IT dept at my company run around fixing virus outbreaks, windows corruptions, spyware, slowdown caused by everything from spyware viruses and registry errors, windows updates corrupting systems, etc.

Osx is such a superior platform in every respect, and deployment is built in with ARD, rather than buying expensive applications then learning how stupid they are like Altiris.

Your IT department doesn't know how to secure their network. PCs on our managed network very seldom get viruses, and if they do, the IT dept knows about it before the user does. In 8 years, I have seen ONE virus effect one of our servers, and that's because it was new and Symantec hadn't seen it yet. Within 4 hours of it being noticed by one of the server guys, Symantec had a patch out and added it to their automatic updates.

ventmonkey: RussianPooper: I like how the only thing people think IT does is help desk.

I believe this is part of the problem. If IT does their job well, and the servers/services keep working correctly, all the end users see the IT staff doing is help desk. I've had people demand that I not wear headphones and listen to music because they might have a problem, and just want to be able to yell at me. They have no idea that we spend most of our time keeping things running smoothly...er...in theory.

I work in Network Infrastructure so what I do is sitting and typing or after work hours or on holidays, weekends, etc. So during the week if I am not running around people assume I am doing nothing even if I was there until 10 pm the night before or worked all weekend.

The_Gallant_Gallstone: Jobber8742: What you always hear about are the older people around here, they did not have it taken away when it was changed. They'll still get that sweet deal.

Plot bloody rebellion. Join the PSL or grin and bear it.

JoeCamelToe: I tell them to stop looking at porn.

You sound female.

Oh, I'm not complaining about our retirement. I just hate when people complain about us Government employees get this sweet pension when really the policy was changed over 20 years ago. A raise would be nice, but you jerks put an end to that.

The_Gallant_Gallstone: ventmonkey: And as a side gripe....as bad as the economy is, I would think it would be easier to find good developers. I am having such a hard time finding a good Java developer. They just don't seem to be unemployed at all. Any advice on where to look?

By "good" do you "unattainably perfect given the meager wage I'm offering"?

I'm not saying that's the case, but part of this economic death we're experiencing involves employers expecting demigods to work for practically nothing.

Oh, not at all. We can pay quite well. I just can't find anyone very good. Everyone seems to know PHP, not so many available people doing enterprise Java.

StrangeQ: As someone who is starting his masters in computer engineering this summer...I'm actually getting a kick out of this.

/utter terror replaced with cautious optimism?

If you end up with an IT job with that degree, you have failed.

I would also like to throw a CSB out there.

When I moved to a new state I had to go whore myself out in the IT contracting scene again. For those of you not in the industry, as a network engineer it's not always very easy to find a solid steady job (especially a direct hire). Once your skillset gets to a certain level, a company would prefer to only bring you in for the design and implementation phases of a project, then roll it over to some idiot that they pay half your salary for "operation and support". So anyway, contracting it was for a while.

One 8 week contract I took was for the State's Department of Revenue. I have never worked in public sector before so I had no idea what I was in for. Never have I seen a culture of such undeserved self-congratulatory circle jerking. First off, not one single person that was actually an employee of DOR had any farking clue how to do the job that their job titled implied was their responsibility. NONE OF THEM. Their 'network person' was a moderately attractive MILFy type that after 5 years in the job did not know how to set ANY of the passwords on a Cisco router. Not only that, she got mad when I tried to explain to her HOW to do it instead of just doing it for her. They essentially survived by getting budget approval for boondoggle projects so they could bring in contractors for a few weeks at a time just so they could have people on site that understood technology for a few weeks. It was very very sad.

The worst part is that they constantly had catered meetings to congratulate each other on what a wonderful job they did... and by job I mean hiring contractors for a few weeks. Then to add insult to injury, they did some MORE of their annual asbestos removal in the building.

fark government work. Apparently everything centers around that pension.... positions are filled not based on qualification but rather who the other people want to look at for 30 years while they are waiting to punch out. They are terrible with their budget since they don't have to raise their own revenue or compete with anybody, and if you are luckly enough to be hired, you have 30 years of coworker incompetence to look forward to.

/Not naming the state but it isn't MI

dr.zaeus: I know of a lot of fellow ArcGIS Analyst/Developers that are about to retire. These old bastards have been around since the Avenue/AML days and have left a mountain of code update work for the next generation to sort out.

Municipal and State government mapping departments, however, aren't the best GIS positions out there; get a job with an Electric Membership Cooperative like I did and you'll strike paydirt.

At CA Dept of Fish and Game GIS is very important but the pay is not so great. The benefits are ok, not as good as people believe they are.

LittleSmitty: (2a) (corollary). No matter how hard you try, you can't make a baby in much less than 9 months.

I've heard this phrased as "you can't get nine women to make a baby in one month".

BigMevy: And yet, just like when people meet a lawyer or a doctor the first thing they start doing is asking for free legal or medical advice, the first thing they say when they find out you're IT is "Say... I've got this problem on my pc..."

As a programmer, I always respond: "I only write the software. I don't actually know how to use it."

ventmonkey: Oh, not at all. We can pay quite well. I just can't find anyone very good. Everyone seems to know PHP, not so many available people doing enterprise Java.

Where are you looking for people?

altinos: BigMevy: And yet, just like when people meet a lawyer or a doctor the first thing they start doing is asking for free legal or medical advice, the first thing they say when they find out you're IT is "Say... I've got this problem on my pc..."

As a programmer, I always respond: "I only write the software. I don't actually know how to use it."

I've always gone with "I only know how to use Unix...not windows"

Government IT worker here.

6 years into my career with 3 here. On the 'Special Implementations' (installing all the new big expensive systems) team after putting my dues in helpdesk and deskside.

Currently 80K/year + fair amount of OT, 5 weeks vacation per year to start, 4 weeks sick leave, full pension, casual work-environment. Lots of training.

It's a decent gig.

Could I be making more in the private sector? Who knows. My first three jobs out of college were in the private sector (QA, Helpdesk, Helpdesk/Junior Sys Admin) paid 26K, 30K, and 35K respectively. I do know that I was treated like just a cog in the first two jobs, and like dirt in the third.

But I like it here, and I don't see myself anywhere else in the forseeable future.

altinos: ventmonkey: Oh, not at all. We can pay quite well. I just can't find anyone very good. Everyone seems to know PHP, not so many available people doing enterprise Java.

Where are you looking for people?

Phoenix, AZ.

I'm now starting to do a lot of IT/Entrepreneur meet-ups. I figure networking will hopefully help me find the right people.

Jobber8742: raise would be nice, but you jerks put an end to that.

Yeah... people who can't get anything are going to vote for the Republicans to shut off your gravy train until they get a better deal. The philosophy is "if I'm going to wither into financial nothingness, so should you."

Practically speaking, they should vote Democratic, but they know that's a dead-end. Democrats will either fluff out (Carter, maybe Obama) or turn Republican-lite (Clinton, maybe Obama).

That's why we need a militant socialist party in this country... not necessarily to seize power, but to scare the elite into providing the people decently.

I used to work on the help desk for large law firms, and then one of the big 4 accounting firms. I moved to the IT audit side and am now the game keeper instead of the game.

It is a much better existence, never on call, and CIOs have to listen to my recommendations and implement them.

If you can get into the Compliance side you are much better off. I worked for Deloitte for the first 2 years and wanted to quit my job every day, but the knowledge I gained there has been priceless.

I get calls from recruiters often trying to steal me away, and my resume isn't even on any job boards.

I do miss the troubleshooting from the help desk though, that was fun.

ventmonkey: Phoenix, AZ.

I'm now starting to do a lot of IT/Entrepreneur meet-ups. I figure networking will hopefully help me find the right people.

For the longest time in the Detroit area, the only people who applied for PHP jobs were teens and early 20s programmers who hacked it on their own. Has it really come that far in the enterprise?

I can tap on a keyboard...pay me 200k a year...and a pension...

/waaaaaaa!

BUT DID YOU REBOOT 3 TIMES?? (new window)

/seems relevant

TheRedMonkey: The benefits are ok, not as good as people believe they are.

RC Cola sounds delicious when all you have to drink is mud water.

EditorialSpace: I can tap on a keyboard...pay me 200k a year...and a pension...

What do you do, shiatbird? I can bet it's nothing too damn important.

ventmonkey: The_Gallant_Gallstone: ventmonkey: And as a side gripe....as bad as the economy is, I would think it would be easier to find good developers. I am having such a hard time finding a good Java developer. They just don't seem to be unemployed at all. Any advice on where to look?

By "good" do you "unattainably perfect given the meager wage I'm offering"?

I'm not saying that's the case, but part of this economic death we're experiencing involves employers expecting demigods to work for practically nothing.

Oh, not at all. We can pay quite well. I just can't find anyone very good. Everyone seems to know PHP, not so many available people doing enterprise Java.

Describe "pay quite well". Realize a good Java dev is making at least a $100k in MN... I'd expect it to be higher on better talent or the coasts, were people think they are naturally worth more.

Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage

http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/glut.html

altinos: ventmonkey: Phoenix, AZ.

I'm now starting to do a lot of IT/Entrepreneur meet-ups. I figure networking will hopefully help me find the right people.

For the longest time in the Detroit area, the only people who applied for PHP jobs were teens and early 20s programmers who hacked it on their own. Has it really come that far in the enterprise?


No, it hasn't. The problem I am having is that too many people know PHP, and not enough know Enterprise Java.

The_Gallant_Gallstone: TheRedMonkey: The benefits are ok, not as good as people believe they are.

RC Cola sounds delicious when all you have to drink is mud water.

True, but its the non IT jobs that are really gravy. The IT jobs are underpaid or staffed by unskilled workers mostly. But then again, expectations are very low.

DrewFL: EditorialSpace: I can tap on a keyboard...pay me 200k a year...and a pension...

What do you do, shiatbird? I can bet it's nothing too damn important.

- - -

you can curse, too? I bet that's a 10k a year bonus.

/be careful on who you step on with yur ascent, you will surely see tham on the way down. I don't give to bums. sorry!

rumpelstiltskin: Thank God the Hyderabad School of Bicycle Repair is cranking out IT workers. Otherwise, we'd have to pay these glorified janitors what we used to pay them, and that sucked.

Bicycle Repairmen! But how?

Falcon Hunter:

As long as there are non-IT people, you will need IT people and support departments. If you think the "Help Desk" is helpless, it's because the Help Desk doesn't like you and knows you're a complete moron.

Shut up and reboot.

ID-10 T error.


THIS. Worked IT in the medical field for 2 years. If you think the average person is tech illiterate try dealing with a doctor. Combine technical illiteracy with a douchey sense of entitlement. "No Doctor, your clinical records app is not going to work, you're on a beach in the Bahamas, you have no connection to our network....Sorry, no we can't magically give you network access over the phone. Yes sir, I realize the hotel gave you free wireless but that doesn't give you access to our HIPAA-protected network. Sure, call my CIO, he'll laugh in your face. Goodbyehaveaniceday."

LegacyDL: IT is only in demand because people are too lazy to fix their own computers/printers/servers/coding.

Once people figure out the secret to IT *cough*searching google*cough* it will lose its appeal and will soon join the other professions that used to be hot and then got cooled off(nursing, law, education, etc).

Hell half the people that do IT just do it so they can transition themselves to get towards the business end of things, the other half are simply consultants.

I didn't realize google was a secret. I do that right in front of them and nobody's taken the initiative to try that themselves before calling. The average user can't even comprehend an error message, let alone type it into google and figure out which response applies to their situation then use the information to fix their problem.

ventmonkey: I'm now starting to do a lot of IT/Entrepreneur meet-ups. I figure networking will hopefully help me find the right people.

I need to get in meet-ups too... But I haven't really found any in my county, which is odd, considering I'm only 30 miles from New York City.

Bag of Hammers: Falcon Hunter:

As long as there are non-IT people, you will need IT people and support departments. If you think the "Help Desk" is helpless, it's because the Help Desk doesn't like you and knows you're a complete moron.

Shut up and reboot.

ID-10 T error.


THIS. Worked IT in the medical field for 2 years. If you think the average person is tech illiterate try dealing with a doctor. Combine technical illiteracy with a douchey sense of entitlement. "No Doctor, your clinical records app is not going to work, you're on a beach in the Bahamas, you have no connection to our network....Sorry, no we can't magically give you network access over the phone. Yes sir, I realize the hotel gave you free wireless but that doesn't give you access to our HIPAA-protected network. Sure, call my CIO, he'll laugh in your face. Goodbyehaveaniceday."


I can confirm that doctors are the worst. Followed closely by car dealerships, then small financial firms, Lawyers, and that small segment of computer based training places that teach non-technical people how to use a specific piece of software.

As an Oldskool IT type, I can say that the article speaks truth. In fact, a few years ago I was able to make some extra money via side contracts with the Govt, and there were a LOT of fulltime openings even then they could not fill (with the caveat that I am in a very specialized category, Oracle/Unix and SQL Server DBA work/architecture).

A few things that you need to know if you are looking for a place to land in IT.

1) Security is great, as the article says, but I would say database work is better (and a lot more common of a need). That and a CISSP is REQUIRED for security, and it is a REALLY hard test to pass I understand.

2) ERP experience (Peoplesoft, Oracle Financials, GP, etc) is golden. I know ERP folks who can still get 200$ an Hour today.

3) Coding/Programming isn't as great as people make it out to be, it depends on the situation. It's a lot better to have the idea than create it (in other words, being an architect is a 6-figure gig, but base coding that design is 50k). Being a coder is the IT analogue of an assembly line (unless of course you work for you, in which case all bets are off an you can make ... or lose... your own destiny.

4) Coding deprecates all the time, in fact from year to year people wash out because they can't keep up with the complex changes. Databases are a steeper learning curve at the start, but really don't change that often (Codd's relational theory goes back to the early 70s, and Oracle essentially hasn't changed anything but interfaces in about 10 years so that if you learn it once you can probably coast for awhile ... if that's your thing).

5) Certifications only mean something if they represent knowledge of practical use. Nobody want to pay an MCSE 100k/yr with no experience, so don't expect your community college to vault you into some great career. It's like any other business, no matter who you are you pay your dues.

6)Govt Work is VERY boring. If you have any skills at all it will probably bore you into burnout. Quickly. They are seriously change averse, expect to argue every change you intend to make to any system to death. Seriously.

Good luck to guys hoping to switch over. It's a myth (at least in IT) that it's hard to get a job as an old guy. I'm a development officer for a startup, and we actually have 4 generations of coders on our team right now. My oldest guy is almost 60, and he's sharp as a tack. IT is one job you can do until you're dead (in other words, at any age as long as you got skills).

Bag of Hammers:"No Doctor, your clinical records app is not going to work, you're on a beach in the Bahamas"

Here's my CSB:

I had a user call me once, screaming, that he couldn't get his email. After a few minutes into the conversation, come to find that he's in Namibia. Farkin' Namibia. His "hotel" had no internet, and even our last-resort dial-up provider didn't work in Namibia.

And somehow, this was my fault.

GookNukem: Big Al: The_Pirate Quote 2011-01-27 12:01:49 PM
bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

HAHA...


>>

You can laugh but it's true. I have seen the IT dept at my company run around fixing virus outbreaks, windows corruptions, spyware, slowdown caused by everything from spyware viruses and registry errors, windows updates corrupting systems, etc.

Osx is such a superior platform in every respect, and deployment is built in with ARD, rather than buying expensive applications then learning how stupid they are like Altiris.

Your IT department sucks.

Yeah - I was just going to add: you know how I know he sucks at his job?

I worked for the Department of Energy a few years ago as a low-level Desktop Support/Jr. Sys Admin. At that time, I was one of THREE people under the age of 30. And all three of us were contractors - not Department employees.

And that was the Department. Not just IT.

The main problem isn't that they will be able to find technical or experienced people. But the issue is that the people coming in won't have the years of training their predecessors had. They won't know processes or procedures, contacts, federal laws, etc that you pick up as someones protege.

I've seen entire laboratories and agencies "Red Flagged" and shutdown because of one or two policy issues. And this is with people that have been doing things for years. The coming issues over the next two decades are going to be AMAZING to witness.

If we want to correct this we need to spend money. We've got to hire young people into the Department NOW if we don't want to fall behind. But that would swell the ranks of Federal employees, something the American people are against (and in fact are attacking them by reducing wages).

So my options as a well-skilled, and educated Millennials are this:

1. Work for the Government:
-Stagnant or decreasing wages & benefits.
-Some people are contractors for years(which in Gov. Service means a lot).
-Crushed with red-tape/processes/procedures.
-Generally hated by politicians and the populous.

2. Work for the private sector:
-Stagnant or decreasing wages. But a possibility of advancement.
-Some people are contractors for years.

The problem is now that companies insist on hiring "nerd managers" who can solve all sorts of Unix, J2EE, Python, Exchange and other technical issues, but fall down horribly on completion of day-to-day activities such as employee reviews, processing time sheets, budgeting, customer/vendor relationship etc while they get caught up in solving technical issues. Morale suffers but nobody can quit because there are no jobs out there now. We just keep getting more stressed and miserable.

Yet the corporations continue to hunt for this mythical beast of "perfect guru-manager" because paying for one body instead of two keeps those "short-term-thinking" shareholders happy.

Really, short-term thinking is killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

I work in desktop support (trying to get into a sysadmin position). Our helpdesk manager is a state secretary, and the desktop support manager is a logistician. The prior manager was a personnel clerk. Helpless desk? Much.

bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

Or just have a handful of competent people format every computer the company receives and install a standard Linux distro.

BigMevy: SFSailor: Threads like these, and the attitudes, ignorance and arrogance expressed in them are just another reminder of the horrible way IT people are typically treated... the last group that is socially acceptable to mock and deride to their face... even lawyers get more respect culturally. "I set up my home PC just fine - you must be an idiot!" Ugh.

And yet, just like when people meet a lawyer or a doctor the first thing they start doing is asking for free legal or medical advice, the first thing they say when they find out you're IT is "Say... I've got this problem on my pc..."

How true!

When I was on the help desk I made up a bunch of business cards and started handing them out for side jobs. I would give them my card and tell them issues are hard to diagnose without seeing them on site.

Charged $50 an hour cash and people would give me beer when I would go to their houses and set up home networks, remove viruses, etc. I was charging less until people kept telling me I wasn't charging enough. Well, I fixed that.

LegacyDL: IT is only in demand because people are too lazy to fix their own computers/printers/servers/coding.

Once people figure out the secret to IT *cough*searching google*cough* it will lose its appeal and will soon join the other professions that used to be hot and then got cooled off(nursing, law, education, etc).

Hell half the people that do IT just do it so they can transition themselves to get towards the business end of things, the other half are simply consultants.

LOL You've just confused IT and Helpdesk very thoroughly. Helpdesk says "reboot" "try again" "oh good it works". IT says "did you reflash the firmware after upgrading to XOCS2.3 standard?" "pull the chip and get a new one in there ASAP, the failover server is starting to run hot" etc.

It's unfortunate that these two very different classes of work are listed as "IT", because they require completely different skills.

xynix: It's happening in the private sector too. We've always had problems finding good IT folks and the .COM crash didn't help. A lot of students who were going into IT switched during 2003 so instead of having more come into the industry in 2007 we had much less than we needed.

In addition to that we have IT burn out where people leave the industry all together. I've had two friends move from IT, one went to go drive trucks, the other started a small produce company and drives trucks.

The money is good though and I try to encourage everyone I can to get into the field. An average salary of $70k a year and after 10 years you can easily be making $150k a year.

I am one of the burned-out IT people you speak of. Mainframe work pays really well and still does.

/Did not work help desk or Tech Support

JMel: "Reboot"

"Wait 15 minutes and try again"

Am I hired? Cause thats about all my IT department does. Biggest department in the company. I could save us millions to have a recording that plays those two comments on a loop when you call the helpless desk.

Trust me, no one listens to the recording when they call the help desk.

HallsOfMandos: Trust me, no one listens to the recording when they call the help desk.

They're more worried about a specific site. When the entire network goes down, these people say "I can't access thissite.com." then call back and say "Now I can't access thatsite.com" and then "I'm not getting any email!" No matter how much you say "You can't get anywhere right now!" they think they must log separate tickets for each.

Big Al: The_Pirate Quote 2011-01-27 12:01:49 PM
bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

HAHA...


>>

You can laugh but it's true. I have seen the IT dept at my company run around fixing virus outbreaks, windows corruptions, spyware, slowdown caused by everything from spyware viruses and registry errors, windows updates corrupting systems, etc.

Osx is such a superior platform in every respect, and deployment is built in with ARD, rather than buying expensive applications then learning how stupid they are like Altiris.

Unless a company wants to build Hackintoshes, I doubt they would want to plunk down the insane prices to replace their entire network with Macs without a good reason. Most of the planet still uses Windows, and companies usually don't like spending time and money to retrain their staff just because they want to get away from a system that is so commonly used. On top of that, fixing bugs and taking care of computer issues is what supplies job security for IT people. If computers never needed fixing, IT people would go the way of elevator operators.

Besides, if MacOS becomes more mainstream, it's just a matter of time before some 13 year old kid writes up viruses to target them. It can be done, there's just no incentive for it right now since Windows still dominates a huge portion of the PC market.

JMel: "Reboot"

"Wait 15 minutes and try again"

Am I hired? Cause thats about all my IT department does. Biggest department in the company. I could save us millions to have a recording that plays those two comments on a loop when you call the helpless desk.

Trust me, no one listens to the recording when they call the help desk.



"Hello IT, have you turned it off and on again?"

The IT Crowd, BBC via Netflix == Priceless.

Osx is such a superior platform in every respect, and deployment is built in with ARD, rather than buying expensive applications then learning how stupid they are like Altiris.

As a long time Mac Administrator...I disagree that they easier to manage than a Windows machine. They can actually be more problematic and lead to more abuse by the users. I have managed large deployments to small deployments...they can be a nightmare sometimes.

I have seen Windows deployments go smoothly and never have a virus outbreak unless a user is an idiot(like most are).

Sure you don't have to deal with Virus/spyware problems, but you do have to deal with Apple. I have never seen a company that hates their customers so damn much...seriously...we spent 100k in one month on new Macs and they acted like we were nothing. I get they have people spending millions a year, but a customer who spends 100k+ every year or two should get at least some respect. Trying to talk to their Systems Engineers is just a joke...trying to get support escalated properly and getting a call back can take months.

I would never really want to support a large Mac OS deployment at a corporate level again...

Working at a university I make less than the average person in the same field.

Having said that, the perks of 12 holidays a year, 180 sick days a year, 85% matched pension are pretty nice.

I cannot wait for all of the old guys to leave soon because they're useless. Old people = Old knowledge = old methods of doing IT work.

I'm just starting my IT career after having worked in the computer store business for 10 years, 5 of which I had my own.

Bring on the easy climb to the top!

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: fark government work. Apparently everything centers around that pension.... positions are filled not based on qualification but rather who the other people want to look at for 30 years while they are waiting to punch out. They are terrible with their budget since they don't have to raise their own revenue or compete with anybody, and if you are luckly enough to be hired, you have 30 years of coworker incompetence to look forward to.

/Not naming the state but it isn't MI

Doesn't sound like my state, either. Our people are, for the most part, very competent at what they do. We do earn our own revenue by securing grant monies and fundraising (this is my specific group, not the entire State), and employees have an automatic check-jack of around 10-15% to go directly to fund the pension plan, one of the few that's apparently still in the black because of it. Most of us know we could make more in the private sector, but we enjoy what we do, we're good at it, and we know the work matters, and can see the benefits of it on a regular basis. It's not Happyworldland by any stretch, but it's not a horrible place to be, either.

/And I need to get back to it now that break's over
//Then off to the gym in 26 minutes...

Cooper420: 180 sick days a year,

Yeah... that's pretty awesome!

I Mash Grains: I used to work on the help desk for large law firms, and then one of the big 4 accounting firms. I moved to the IT audit side and am now the game keeper instead of the game.

It is a much better existence, never on call, and CIOs have to listen to my recommendations and implement them.

If you can get into the Compliance side you are much better off. I worked for Deloitte for the first 2 years and wanted to quit my job every day, but the knowledge I gained there has been priceless.

I get calls from recruiters often trying to steal me away, and my resume isn't even on any job boards.

I do miss the troubleshooting from the help desk though, that was fun.

Any chance you are looking to hire in any IT Audit functions? Currently working as an "IT Analyst" but am the only IT person in this division location (of a fortune 200 company) running the servers/network/security system/phones/test stands/et all and would greatly appreciate an opportunity to further my career beyond what I see capable with this company.


/even suggestions of where to look or what my next move should be are greatly appreciated
//EIP

Yeah, tdyak: xynix: It's happening in the private sector too. We've always had problems finding good IT folks and the .COM crash didn't help. A lot of students who were going into IT switched during 2003 so instead of having more come into the industry in 2007 we had much less than we needed.

In addition to that we have IT burn out where people leave the industry all together. I've had two friends move from IT, one went to go drive trucks, the other started a small produce company and drives trucks.

The money is good though and I try to encourage everyone I can to get into the field. An average salary of $70k a year and after 10 years you can easily be making $150k a year.

I am one of the burned-out IT people you speak of. Mainframe work pays really well and still does.

/Did not work help desk or Tech Support

Yeah, baby, MAINFRAMES. How many lines of COBOL code are still out there? It's all gotta be maintained, too.

You can try to outsource it to Narendar in Mumbai, but believe me, the first time they screw up the the monthly claim reconciliation run, and try to cover it up, (I've seen this happen), that stuff will come back in house quick.

//DD DUMMY

The_Pirate: bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

HAHA...

Yup, all those legacy apps that have been coded for Windows are going to automagically work on those shiny new Macs. fark IT, we got Macs.

Bag of Hammers: Falcon Hunter:

As long as there are non-IT people, you will need IT people and support departments. If you think the "Help Desk" is helpless, it's because the Help Desk doesn't like you and knows you're a complete moron.

Shut up and reboot.

ID-10 T error.


THIS. Worked IT in the medical field for 2 years. If you think the average person is tech illiterate try dealing with a doctor. Combine technical illiteracy with a douchey sense of entitlement. "No Doctor, your clinical records app is not going to work, you're on a beach in the Bahamas, you have no connection to our network....Sorry, no we can't magically give you network access over the phone. Yes sir, I realize the hotel gave you free wireless but that doesn't give you access to our HIPAA-protected network. Sure, call my CIO, he'll laugh in your face. Goodbyehaveaniceday."

Dude, doctors are the worst.

CSB
When I first started civilian helpdesk right out of the Marine Corps, I was working for a healthcare company. Got a call from a doc that was having issues. I called him by his first name. He corrected me saying he was a doctor. I proceeded to tell him he could call me Sergeant if that were the case. We were on a first name basis after that because he was to vein to call me by my title.

/not helpdesk anymore
//server admin at Fortune 100 company

I mean my comment (and I stand by it) for work within my specific industry - advertising/graphic design/2D&3D animation/compositing/etc. Mac is the standard cause they work. I don't want/need to know how to rebuild the transmission on my car, but still need it to do it's job - why is the PC camp so rabid about this?

Couple all of this with the fact that I've been waiting for over a month, enduring all the processes, copying all the bosses, etc. and I am STILL losing files/work due to crashes, bugs and such. I had to file an IT ticket in the Phoenix office, so they could send it to India, who finally called last week, they couldn't remote login to my PC, and were to escallate the ticket to our service center (one floor below me.) They either lost the ticket or someone downstairs did - cause I've been told I need to refile. All the while loosing valuable production time - a cost that would be easily offset by any increased initial cost of a good powerful mac system.

The_Pirate: bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

HAHA...

Yup, all those legacy apps that have been coded for Windows are going to automagically work on those shiny new Macs. fark IT, we got Macs.

THIS!

The irony of what this guy is saying is that converting from Windows (business) to Mac (Interior Design?) would make said IT shop 10X larger in any real-sized shop. The conversion would be... Epic.

Thunderpipes: Jobber8742: godofusa.com: The average private sector worker gets about $60k/y if you count salary + benefits. The average government worker gets almost double that because of the ridiculous taxpayer-funded benefits and pensions.

We're broke.

yeah, none of that is accurate.

/Government worker
//Does not make double $60k
///Does not have a pension, we get 401k matching like everyone else
////We pay about what everyone else pays for benefits
////slashies

Maybe you personally, but on average, a US government worker gets 40k in benefits, a private employee 10k. Why do you think government at a federal and state level has over 1 trillion dollars in underfunded pension obligations alone?

Assuming these numbers are correct, you can't just average each set. I would imagine that the government has a larger percentage of skilled and/or educated employees than private businesses as a whole. How many fry cooks does McDonalds employ? How many cashiers at Safeway? What are their benefits like? What are they responsible for and held accountable for? How many jobs in the federal government compare to these positions with private companies?

Ludendorff's Ghost:
Yeah, baby, MAINFRAMES. How many lines of COBOL code are still out there? It's all gotta be maintained, too.

You don't need mainframes for that... Our ERP system is written in COBOL. Yay for that. I think they still got one guy who's writing it, possibly in his mom's basement. I've been pushing for replacement ERP for a long, looooong time, but it's an uphill battle. I wish it would just implode so I could say "I told you so".

bump: I mean my comment (and I stand by it) for work within my specific industry - advertising/graphic design/2D&3D animation/compositing/etc. Mac is the standard cause they work. I don't want/need to know how to rebuild the transmission on my car, but still need it to do it's job - why is the PC camp so rabid about this?

Couple all of this with the fact that I've been waiting for over a month, enduring all the processes, copying all the bosses, etc. and I am STILL losing files/work due to crashes, bugs and such. I had to file an IT ticket in the Phoenix office, so they could send it to India, who finally called last week, they couldn't remote login to my PC, and were to escallate the ticket to our service center (one floor below me.) They either lost the ticket or someone downstairs did - cause I've been told I need to refile. All the while loosing valuable production time - a cost that would be easily offset by any increased initial cost of a good powerful mac system.

It sounds more like the executives at the company are incompetent than the IT guys. What dumbass designed that organizational structure and process?

About to take a $62 an hour job. I currently make $35.90. Remote SAN backup and OS support for a major state contract, through my current employer, so a promotion of sorts. Should be 20-30 hours of OT a week at time and a half as well. I will work from my home office. Get my benefits through my wife's plan. Things are looking very much up for me. It is also going to be extremely challenging, which I look forward to. First on the list will be to start getting certifications I never had time/money for, Cisco, EMC, etc. But I put my time and my hours in for the last 11 years starting out as a pegboy and working my way up. Also finally finishing my bachelor degree this Spring. Try going to school and working 50+ hours a week and getting married and makin babies. It takes a toll on you after a while, but the payoffs are there.

The people I work with now are incredibly talented and professional. The new people will be even more so. People really do need to stop thinking that all of IT is the dork that guides idiots through broken mice. You also don't have to be in management to make big bucks. I should clear 200k a year easy, and will be doing technical work. I will drink many, many beers.

bump: I mean my comment (and I stand by it) for work within my specific industry - advertising/graphic design/2D&3D animation/compositing/etc. Mac is the standard cause they work. I don't want/need to know how to rebuild the transmission on my car, but still need it to do it's job - why is the PC camp so rabid about this?

Couple all of this with the fact that I've been waiting for over a month, enduring all the processes, copying all the bosses, etc. and I am STILL losing files/work due to crashes, bugs and such. I had to file an IT ticket in the Phoenix office, so they could send it to India, who finally called last week, they couldn't remote login to my PC, and were to escallate the ticket to our service center (one floor below me.) They either lost the ticket or someone downstairs did - cause I've been told I need to refile. All the while loosing valuable production time - a cost that would be easily offset by any increased initial cost of a good powerful mac system.

As has been said, your IT department sucks. You don't need to know how to rebuild your transmission - but I should hope your mechanic does.

I know this is going to sound mean, but if you're in advertising its probably a PEBCAC situation.

Yeah, that was mean.

HotSalsaZoot: Uhhh, no. Really, no. Ten years ago, someone with a BS in CS, 2-3 years of real Oracle experience, maybe a year in Oracle Apps experience would get you $120-150. Today, it's an MBA, 5-8 years Oracle experience plus must have worked in every programming environment known to man for $65-80K/year AND they'll work you to death and typically offer little in return.

Glory days of IT are over.


This IT field employed college dropout snickers. But the fewer people in my field the better it is for me, so... "Yes, please believe everything this person just said. It is all true."

/trying to keep a straight face.

ventmonkey: [looking for Java people in] Phoenix, AZ.

I know one Java guy who's pretty good, but he already has a full-time job. Maybe he knows some people. Tried the PLUG list? Lots of technical people hang out there. EIP if you'd like more detail.

Me? PHP, MySQL, Apache, Perl, Ruby, C/++, anything relating to Linux including DRBD/HA/LVS, writing docs, troubleshooting, support, JOAT. But not Java. And right now I'm too busy for conslutting work.

finnished: Ludendorff's Ghost:
Yeah, baby, MAINFRAMES. How many lines of COBOL code are still out there? It's all gotta be maintained, too.

You don't need mainframes for that... Our ERP system is written in COBOL. Yay for that. I think they still got one guy who's writing it, possibly in his mom's basement. I've been pushing for replacement ERP for a long, looooong time, but it's an uphill battle. I wish it would just implode so I could say "I told you so".


And sadly, for every day that you can manage to keep the system limping along without imploding, some bean counter somewhere gets to crow about how much money he's saving the company by avoiding replacement/revamping.

I Mash Grains: When I was on the help desk I made up a bunch of business cards and started handing them out for side jobs. I would give them my card and tell them issues are hard to diagnose without seeing them on site.

Charged $50 an hour cash and people would give me beer when I would go to their houses and set up home networks, remove viruses, etc. I was charging less until people kept telling me I wasn't charging enough. Well, I fixed that.

I've become so tired of doing side jobs that I charge $75 an hour (hour minimum) to help people with side projects. People are still willing to pay it. I would guess I get a 2-3 phone calls a week on average asking for personal computer help.

ScottRiqui: And sadly, for every day that you can manage to keep the system limping along without imploding, some bean counter somewhere gets to crow about how much money he's saving the company by avoiding replacement/revamping.

And I know exactly who that person is too! Yes, it's a lot of money to replace it, yes it's a lot of resources that are needed, but the alternatives are much worse. And changing an ERP system will never get any easier. It makes me so angry I want to quit, but I guess I'm still looking for my balls. I think my boss might have them.

Heard the same thing in 1995.

Thunderpipes: People really do need to stop thinking that all of IT is the dork that guides idiots through broken mice. You also don't have to be in management to make big bucks. I should clear 200k a year easy, and will be doing technical work. I will drink many, many beers.

And I will shout "Cool Story Bro" until my throat is sore!

Skeet Skeet: Any chance you are looking to hire in any IT Audit functions? Currently working as an "IT Analyst" but am the only IT person in this division location (of a fortune 200 company) running the servers/network/security system/phones/test stands/et all and would greatly appreciate an opportunity to further my career beyond what I see capable with this company.



I didn't see EIP.
I don't hire, but I would look into the Price Waterhouse Cooper, Deloittes, KPMG, or Ernst and Young for a good start. You might work a lot of hours the first 2 years with them, but with a big 4 on your resume you have a lot to choose from. Look into getting a CISA or CISM certification.

Or you can look into IT Compliance with the company you are with now. Come to think of it, you might even look into the Security and Privacy services with one of those firms, and in that case you would want to get a CISSP.

Might be a pay cut to start for you with the skills you have, but you would never be on call, etc.

My pay went up probably 45% in the 4 years I have been doing IT audit. I probably work about 38 hours a week, haven't gone over 45 hours since I left the big 4.

Bag of Hammers: Falcon Hunter:

As long as there are non-IT people, you will need IT people and support departments. If you think the "Help Desk" is helpless, it's because the Help Desk doesn't like you and knows you're a complete moron.

Shut up and reboot.

ID-10 T error.


THIS. Worked IT in the medical field for 2 years. If you think the average person is tech illiterate try dealing with a doctor. Combine technical illiteracy with a douchey sense of entitlement. "No Doctor, your clinical records app is not going to work, you're on a beach in the Bahamas, you have no connection to our network....Sorry, no we can't magically give you network access over the phone. Yes sir, I realize the hotel gave you free wireless but that doesn't give you access to our HIPAA-protected network. Sure, call my CIO, he'll laugh in your face. Goodbyehaveaniceday."

Dude, doctors are the worst.

CSB
When I first started civilian helpdesk right out of the Marine Corps, I was working for a healthcare company. Got a call from a doc that was having issues. I called him by his first name. He corrected me saying he was a doctor. I proceeded to tell him he could call me Sergeant if that were the case. We were on a first name basis after that because he was to vein to call me by my title.

/not helpdesk anymore
//server admin at Fortune 100 company

Doctors are just a pain in the ass to deal with all the way around. We make PACS (radiology.. like the systems attached to a CT machine... sort of) workstations and EMR control software, and I can say with certainty that the techno-illiterate doc is a non-endangered species. Part of the problem is that they have gone out of their way as an industry to create a scarcity of doctors, and that has made for an aging (read 50+) physician demographic which grew up and was trained without any kind of technology. The last numbers I heard were that 6% of docs used an electronic EMR, and around 30% of docs were using electronic images (most still print film, silver and the whole bit).

Arrogance? OMG. I used to work with a doc who REFUSED to fly commerical, to the point of owning and maintaining his own air force. A few year ago he presented at RSNA (the big radiology conference) and flew the damn things back and forth so he could sleep at home. This cost him 1200$/hr in fuel + 2 crew. He felt that this was an entitlement he deserved, and he made a ton of sacrifices for everyone else around him in order to do it (read: 'hey guys, sorry no raises this year, fuel went up').

Doctors are both bad to work for, and are nearly impossible to get money from as a vendor. There is a deep seated feeling (by them) that everyone else can just chill and wait for them to be ready... except if the printer breaks (in which case its a farking crisis because THEY need it now... nevermind that it hasn't worked for two weeks while everyone else needed it, etc).

Does this mean I have to learn COBOL?

I have the least respect for COBOL programmers due to some experiences I had about 15-20 years ago. They were lazy farking idiots, but they had data I needed to manipulate (using such cutting edge technology as C and SQL).

Could you maybe split the data up into easily parsed fields or some shiat like that?

No, that's too complicated for us COBOL programmers. We can send you what we send to the printer as a text-file though.

I never wrote so much convoluted code in my farking life.

I had to figure out First, Middle (possibly initial) and last names from a text file. How did I determine what the middle name of "Anita De La Rosa" was or even if there was a middle name? Well how would you do it?

I hard-coded a lot of shiat. "De La Rosa" was just my favorite last name. There were plenty of others. "Van Douchebag" I think was another of them. And how did I figure out that the 'D' in MacDonald of McDonald should be capitalized? Well, the COBOL programmers didn't understand lower-case. Everything was upper-case to them. Again I had to hard-code that shiat.

It was messy and very very ugly. I'm ashamed of that code, but what else could I do?

The only thing I can say in my defense is that my code is still running their retail operation over 15 years after I quit that job.

Every once in a while I visit one of their stores and casually take a look at their POS terminals. And I say "Yup, still my software. I wonder if they ever changed the root password".

The last time I did that the salesgirl told me how much she thought it sucked. I hadn't told her that I wrote 90% of it or that it was 15 years old but I could see her point. 15 years ago it looked ancient.

At least they aren't putting Wyse terminals in their stores anymore. I think they're still using Epson printers though.

IT jobs are needed now because the older generation of workers have no clue how to do basic things with a computer, such as hyperlinking. Seriously, my boss calls that magic... Once these useless older workers retire or die, the business world will be a lot different and IT will be almost unneccessary.

Nick Spiceyweiner: IT jobs are needed now because the older generation of workers have no clue how to do basic things with a computer, such as hyperlinking. Seriously, my boss calls that magic... Once these useless older workers retire or die, the business world will be a lot different and IT will be almost unneccessary.

Uh huh. Not like there are actually computers and networks out there that have nothing to do with end user workstations. Knowing how to hyperlink means you can build and run a huge storage network, yup.

Happy Hours:
I have the least respect for COBOL programmers due to some experiences I had about 15-20 years ago.

Funny... This actually explains a lot of idiosyncrasies in our ERP software.

Dear employer:
Please withhold a significant amount of my pay for a period of up to 40 years. Please continue to withhold that money even after I leave your employ. Please keep that money if I leave your employ before I have fully vested. Please do not seek any significant investment opportunities with that money. Please do nothing to reduce my tax liability for the money you are withholding. Please do not let me withdraw that money as a lump sum, even once I'm eligible to make withdrawals.

HotSalsaZoot: xynix:
It's happening in the private sector too. We've always had problems finding good IT folks and the .COM crash didn't help. A lot of students who were going into IT switched during 2003 so instead of having more come into the industry in 2007 we had much less than we needed.

In addition to that we have IT burn out where people leave the industry all together. I've had two friends move from IT, one went to go drive trucks, the other started a small produce company and drives trucks.

The money is good though and I try to encourage everyone I can to get into the field. An average salary of $70k a year and after 10 years you can easily be making $150k a year.


Uhhh, no. Really, no. Ten years ago, someone with a BS in CS, 2-3 years of real Oracle experience, maybe a year in Oracle Apps experience would get you $120-150. Today, it's an MBA, 5-8 years Oracle experience plus must have worked in every programming environment known to man for $65-80K/year AND they'll work you to death and typically offer little in return.

Glory days of IT are over.

This. Changed my major to business.

RussianPooper:
In IT, the amount of praise you receive is inversely proportional to the difficulty and amount of work a task or project requires.

I worked out some oddities in our DFS implementation that fixed some snafu with our nearline backups. *crickets*

BUT, I make a farking email alias for a bunch of interns, and I get a standing ovation at the staff meeting.

facepalm.jpg

I'm a software engineer. I've worked for one of the biggest global corporations, and for a handful of small companies.

The bigger the company, the stupider the work force.

At the big company, the sys admin was the dumbest fark I'd ever encountered in the IT trade. His authentication server took a shiat and he asked me what was wrong with my program. Folks couldn't connect to it anymore.

*SIGH*

Hey man. Need a DB app? A cute GUI? A nice web service hosted in a windows service? No? Then why in the fark are you asking me? Do YOUR job, I'll do mine.

He ended up on the phone with Microsoft for 3 working days (major bank) to find out how he had misconfigured Kerberos with a patch.

Big companies can afford to have stupid employees.

Give me a small company any day where you and your colleagues have to know their shiat to keep the company going.

SlothB77: FTFA subby: Government continues to have trouble competing with higher salaries in the private sector and restrictions in the civil service system, Grant said. "More than 78 percent of state CIOs confirmed that state salary rates and pay grade structures present a challenge in attracting and retaining skilled IT talent," the report said.


Goddamnit! And we were all set up for a good anti-Government circle-jerk masterbatorithon!

Subby should probably find some way to work in "Palin" and "Obongo" into this, too, just for effect.

/apparently works for the wrong Government

AcneVulgaris: The price is merely your soul and will to live. 30 years as a drone to earn a comfortable retirement for your hollowed out shell.

Only to find that the government no longer can borrow the money to pay for your retirement.

Do states still even have pensions for new workers? Last time I worked federal it was a Thrift Savings Plan, like a 401K, or nothing.

LegacyDL: IT is only in demand because people are too lazy to fix their own computers/printers/servers/coding.

Once people figure out the secret to IT *cough*searching google*cough* it will lose its appeal and will soon join the other professions that used to be hot and then got cooled off(nursing, law, education, etc).


Once they "figure it out"? It's not a secret. shiat, I go out of my way to try to train people to do that, and they still don't.

Thunderpipes: Nick Spiceyweiner: IT jobs are needed now because the older generation of workers have no clue how to do basic things with a computer, such as hyperlinking. Seriously, my boss calls that magic... Once these useless older workers retire or die, the business world will be a lot different and IT will be almost unneccessary.

Uh huh. Not like there are actually computers and networks out there that have nothing to do with end user workstations. Knowing how to hyperlink means you can build and run a huge storage network, yup.

Not what I was saying, but thanks for the sarcastic comment. I am saying that even simple things like hyperlinking are freaking beyond the grasp of most older workers, so there is no chance they can handle anything IT related. I am in training and education for a Bankers Association, and I also know more about IT than our IT people.

Happy Hours
Does this mean I have to learn COBOL?

Today, Cobol == SQL.

Bag of Hammers: "No Doctor, your clinical records app is not going to work, you're on a beach in the Bahamas, you have no connection to our network....Sorry, no we can't magically give you network access over the phone. Yes sir, I realize the hotel gave you free wireless but that doesn't give you access to our HIPAA-protected network. Sure, call my CIO, he'll laugh in your face. Goodbyehaveaniceday."

Is VPN against HIPAA? Just wondering.

I used to support lawyers so can feel your pain. I can't tell you how many times I heard "The longer you have my laptop, the less billable hours I will be able to charge".

hufnmouth: bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs Linux all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

//FTFY
//Oh Shiat, they're the same thing now.

One can dream. Hell we do 90% of our development utilizing IBM Websphere environment on Windows boxes only to deploy to Solaris or Linux servers. Can't get management to understand we should go to Linux on the desktop with some sort of GUI for most users. Personally I would love to be all command line, VI, Linux based.

Ludendorff's Ghost: Yeah, tdyak: xynix: It's happening in the private sector too. We've always had problems finding good IT folks and the .COM crash didn't help. A lot of students who were going into IT switched during 2003 so instead of having more come into the industry in 2007 we had much less than we needed.

In addition to that we have IT burn out where people leave the industry all together. I've had two friends move from IT, one went to go drive trucks, the other started a small produce company and drives trucks.

The money is good though and I try to encourage everyone I can to get into the field. An average salary of $70k a year and after 10 years you can easily be making $150k a year.

I am one of the burned-out IT people you speak of. Mainframe work pays really well and still does.

/Did not work help desk or Tech Support

Yeah, baby, MAINFRAMES. How many lines of COBOL code are still out there? It's all gotta be maintained, too.

You can try to outsource it to Narendar in Mumbai, but believe me, the first time they screw up the the monthly claim reconciliation run, and try to cover it up, (I've seen this happen), that stuff will come back in house quick.

//DD DUMMY

Outsourcing MF is next to impossible. Most outsourcing countries (India, Brazil, etc) don't even have mainframe systems.

They're simply to expensive and they have no experience.

Nice JCL reference by the way.

/34 year old Mainframe Systems Programmer.

BigMevy: FTFAFor several years state governments have warned that the graying of the baby boom generation would result in a "retirement wave" of public-sector employees whose institutional knowledge wouldn't be easily replaced.


That's a bad thing? I imagine a lot of those old geezers are part of the problem. Get some young blood in there and see how they can streamline things for more efficiency.

As to all the IT bashers in this thread: Call Centers and Help Desk does not encompass all of IT thankyouverymuch.

IT experts hate their own help desks and call centers almost as much as the users, because the help desk can fark things up worse then the standard user and gives us all a bad reputation.

ScottRiqui: finnished: Ludendorff's Ghost:
Yeah, baby, MAINFRAMES. How many lines of COBOL code are still out there? It's all gotta be maintained, too.

You don't need mainframes for that... Our ERP system is written in COBOL. Yay for that. I think they still got one guy who's writing it, possibly in his mom's basement. I've been pushing for replacement ERP for a long, looooong time, but it's an uphill battle. I wish it would just implode so I could say "I told you so".


And sadly, for every day that you can manage to keep the system limping along without imploding, some bean counter somewhere gets to crow about how much money he's saving the company by avoiding replacement/revamping.

You know they still make "new" mainframes...right? And OS's, and software, etc.?

most .gov IT jobs require secret clearance

secret clearance requires good credit

good credit requires one to be lucky enough to no get laid off

/got laid off once
//wife got laid off twice
///do not have good credit

Many older IT workers postponed their retirement when the economy turned south, but they will still eventually leave... in a pine box.

Such hate for helpdesk in this thread (mostly deserved, I admit).

I've been in IT for about 17 years, currently as a senior sysadmin but I've worked my way through helpdesk, programming, a stint in management, and it's not all "reboot" answers. When you get to a certain level of IT knowledge, you stop having to answer such foolishness and can get to more of an architect position. The only people who should be fielding helpdesk calls (and saying "please reboot" are those who have no IT knowledge and are operating from a binder (either from lack of experience or inability to retain knowledge).

The glory days are over, late 90s were really it. You could get a 100k job with minimal experience and a 50-70k job by fogging up a mirror and passing your MSCE. Those days are gone and they are not going to come back. Those that rode the wave a number took pay cuts, even more got out of the field all together after downsizing.

/15 years experience in the field
//now doing IT for health care
///feels damn lucky to the gig
////fark consulting, fark it hard, I worked 60-80 hour weeks making some other farker rich

deconstructed: most .gov IT jobs require secret clearance

secret clearance requires good credit

good credit requires one to be lucky enough to no get laid off

/got laid off once
//wife got laid off twice
///do not have good credit

Yup, worked at a AFB datacenter for one month while they were doing my background check. I had a 7 year old bankrupcy (due to layoff) and it kept me from getting the job.

That's ok, my previous employer (who had just laid me off as well)
took me back as a contractor making rediculous amounts of money.

But then they brought me back on as an employee and my pay went back to garbage.

Slaves2Darkness: hufnmouth: bump: You wouldn't even need an IT department if you'd ween them off of the PC teet. Macs Linux all around and you might actually get some productive work out of people...

//FTFY
//Oh Shiat, they're the same thing now.

One can dream. Hell we do 90% of our development utilizing IBM Websphere environment on Windows boxes only to deploy to Solaris or Linux servers. Can't get management to understand we should go to Linux on the desktop with some sort of GUI for most users. Personally I would love to be all command line, VI, Linux based.

We've tried Ubuntu with KDE to make it pretty. People thought we were going to Macs.

Odd The Viking Quote 2011-01-27 12:41:41 PM

Your IT department doesn't know how to secure their network. PCs on our managed network very seldom get viruses, and if they do, the IT dept knows about it before the user does. In 8 years, I have seen ONE virus effect one of our servers, and that's because it was new and Symantec hadn't seen it yet. Within 4 hours of it being noticed by one of the server guys, Symantec had a patch out and added it to their automatic updates.

>>

Nobody said a virus outbreak was crippling the network or infecting multiple computers. (they do use Norton though so when it happens is anyone surprised?)

The problem is the amount of manpower it takes to go around in large work environments and reimage those computers that were infected. That's time that the hardware monkey could be doing something else, like deploying new computers, or tracking rogue computers down that did not get updated automatically for some reason. In a campus of thousands of computers it's far harder to have a perfect network setup... especially when a lot of your workers just like academia and are computer clueless except they "just like macs" like almost everyone else who graduates college for some reason.

I have worked in an all mac environment, and while the servers are a little more expensive, you have just as many options as windows, and any good program will run on a unix/linux base. Plus, who the fark wants to deal with exchange anyway? Talk about a time wasting money drain.

Bag of Hammers:
THIS. Worked IT in the medical field for 2 years. If you think the average person is tech illiterate try dealing with a doctor. Combine technical illiteracy with a douchey sense of entitlement. "No Doctor, your clinical records app is not going to work, you're on a beach in the Bahamas, you have no connection to our network....Sorry, no we can't magically give you network access over the phone. Yes sir, I realize the hotel gave you free wireless but that doesn't give you access to our HIPAA-protected network. Sure, call my CIO, he'll laugh in your face. Goodbyehaveaniceday."

Seconded. I love working in the health care field, but holy fark are people that are good at care giving bad with tech, on top of that I have never seen so many damaged laptops. WTF do they do play volleyball with their gear?

IT for a state government? Hmmmm, I think I still remember some VMS and DECnet.

Ludendorff's Ghost: Yeah, baby, MAINFRAMES. How many lines of COBOL code are still out there? It's all gotta be maintained, too.

You can try to outsource it to Narendar in Mumbai, but believe me, the first time they screw up the the monthly claim reconciliation run, and try to cover it up, (I've seen this happen), that stuff will come back in house quick.

I'm not really sure if you're trolling or not, but I'm going to give a 6/10 for it.

/Still not as good as a Nonstop.
//Nothing ever will be.

Devlik: Bag of Hammers:
THIS. Worked IT in the medical field for 2 years. If you think the average person is tech illiterate try dealing with a doctor. Combine technical illiteracy with a douchey sense of entitlement. "No Doctor, your clinical records app is not going to work, you're on a beach in the Bahamas, you have no connection to our network....Sorry, no we can't magically give you network access over the phone. Yes sir, I realize the hotel gave you free wireless but that doesn't give you access to our HIPAA-protected network. Sure, call my CIO, he'll laugh in your face. Goodbyehaveaniceday."

Seconded. I love working in the health care field, but holy fark are people that are good at care giving bad with tech, on top of that I have never seen so many damaged laptops. WTF do they do play volleyball with their gear?

HAHA, our customer base is psychiatrists, they want you to feel the pain that their outage has caused

Devlik: Bag of Hammers:
THIS. Worked IT in the medical field for 2 years. If you think the average person is tech illiterate try dealing with a doctor. Combine technical illiteracy with a douchey sense of entitlement. "No Doctor, your clinical records app is not going to work, you're on a beach in the Bahamas, you have no connection to our network....Sorry, no we can't magically give you network access over the phone. Yes sir, I realize the hotel gave you free wireless but that doesn't give you access to our HIPAA-protected network. Sure, call my CIO, he'll laugh in your face. Goodbyehaveaniceday."

Seconded. I love working in the health care field, but holy fark are people that are good at care giving bad with tech, on top of that I have never seen so many damaged laptops. WTF do they do play volleyball with their gear?

I've seen how traveling in home care nurses work with laptops, mostly it is a case of not having enough hands and caring more about the human in front of you then the piece of plastic and silicon the company forces you to carry. They end up on the floor a lot.

Slaves2Darkness:
I've seen how traveling in home care nurses work with laptops, mostly it is a case of not having enough hands and caring more about the human in front of you then the piece of plastic and silicon the company forces you to carry. They end up on the floor a lot.

That could be we are a hospice facility with an IPU/Residence but the bulk of it is in home. They were seven levels of pissed when I told them that the laptops had to be in padded bags, that yes we needed passwords longer than 4 characters and yes you need to change them 4 times a year at a minimum.

I work with our help desk staff to try to minimize the disruption technology brings to their day to day job but it is hard. I am looking at rolling out smart phones that CNAs can chart on so they will no longer need laptops or any other devices. Personally I can't wait.

/HIPPA it has teeth
//RSA tokens might be our next step
///Just happy I run the servers instead of what our CNA due. Those folks are amazing.

Cubansaltyballs: The Southern Dandy: IT for a state government? Hmmmm, I think I still remember some VMS and DECnet.

That reminds me of a State IT douchebag I met. This guy was so useless and I think borderline retarded. He was the embodiment of every state worker stereotype. I could tell stories about useless this guy was. It's no surprise that California is drowning in debt. They've paid this guy for 25 years, and now they're going to pay his pension. He should have been fired for incompetence 1 month into his job. If this were a just world, he would be sent to the death panels.

The funny part is, his last name was "Smart", so everyone around had their own way of saying it. Some people would refer to him in emails as Mr. Smrt. Most people called him "Notso", which became his whole name. Firstname Notso Smart.

Every time his name came up it was Firstname Notso Smart won't be attending the meeting.

The sad thing is, this horrible douchebag retired with a full pension, then they brought him back as a consultant so he could 'help'.

Was he really stupid or had he been doing the same thing for the last 25 years and nobody forced him to re-train or do something different?

One of the problems you have in government, at all levels, is training. Government rarely sees the need to train their workers for something new or even to keep up their skills. When working in the IT or software this is deadly to your career if you are not self directing.

Sad thing is most Government IT workers won't pay for their own training and most Government departments I've worked for routinely gut their training budget, but hey an X thousand dollar a year training benefit is counted against you every year.

So - all you non-helpdesk IT people - any advice for a helpdesk monkey that is desperately trying to move on to bigger and better things in IT field? I have some experience (from college) with coding but it really isn't my thing. I really want to get into sysadmin or network architecture but I am very hesitant to pay one of these Certification mills thousands of $$ for the training/test when the Cert will probably be deemed worthless with no actual sysadmin/network tech experience. I have 5+ years help desk experience and the A+ (yawn) cert.

Burl Swift: You know they still make "new" mainframes...right? And OS's, and software, etc.?

We weren't talking about mainframes, or hardware even, but ERP systems. And sure you can throw new hardware in, but at the end of the day, it's still that same old COBOL code that keeps the ERP system ticking. And that's what worries me.

HallsOfMandos: So - all you non-helpdesk IT people - any advice for a helpdesk monkey that is desperately trying to move on to bigger and better things in IT field? I have some experience (from college) with coding but it really isn't my thing. I really want to get into sysadmin or network architecture but I am very hesitant to pay one of these Certification mills thousands of $$ for the training/test when the Cert will probably be deemed worthless with no actual sysadmin/network tech experience. I have 5+ years help desk experience and the A+ (yawn) cert.

Set up a network of systems in your home and keep adding functions to it. Then way when you are at the "entry level sysadmin" job interview, you actually have some experience that is applicable.

If you use VMware and linux, it can be pretty cheap.

--

Worked at a place where the help desk tickets actually had a check box for "Prefers to be called Doctor". So the poor dears wouldn't have to correct you.

HallsOfMandos: So - all you non-helpdesk IT people - any advice for a helpdesk monkey that is desperately trying to move on to bigger and better things in IT field? I have some experience (from college) with coding but it really isn't my thing. I really want to get into sysadmin or network architecture but I am very hesitant to pay one of these Certification mills thousands of $$ for the training/test when the Cert will probably be deemed worthless with no actual sysadmin/network tech experience. I have 5+ years help desk experience and the A+ (yawn) cert.

Hate to say it but your odds are not good. This is how I did it back in the day.

Step 1) Quit your help desk gig for a job that will pay for your certs
Step 2) Work for shiat wages and many hours for said job at some low level bullshiat admin job
Step 3) Quit said bullshiat job and join up with a reputable consulting firm that will work you to near death. This will give you the experience you need to work with multiple systems in different environments faster than any place else.
Step 4) Become very very good at what you do, pick a system and really learn it damn well, Exchange, SQL, AD, WebAdmin all good choices pick at least 2 perferbly 3.
Step 5) Get a solid rep for being good at Step 4. Your rep is every thing treat it better than your g/f, your car, value it more than your life.
Step 6) Find a company looking for a high end admin in your area of choice preferably in either distribution or health care.
Step 7) Finally enjoy your life now that your not on call 24/7 to 50+ clients and working 40-50 hour weeks instead of 60-80

/marrying the most understanding woman who puts up with all of the above is optional but recommended.

HallsOfMandos: I really want to get into sysadmin or network architecture but I am very hesitant to pay one of these Certification mills thousands of $$ for the training/test when the Cert will probably be deemed worthless with no actual sysadmin/network tech experience.

You could go to one of the training places that sets you up on an actual network for training and testing.

HallsOfMandos: So - all you non-helpdesk IT people - any advice for a helpdesk monkey that is desperately trying to move on to bigger and better things in IT field? I have some experience (from college) with coding but it really isn't my thing. I really want to get into sysadmin or network architecture but I am very hesitant to pay one of these Certification mills thousands of $$ for the training/test when the Cert will probably be deemed worthless with no actual sysadmin/network tech experience. I have 5+ years help desk experience and the A+ (yawn) cert.

Are you helpdesking for a specific application? I got my start as a helpdesk person for a software package and learned how it operated internally. Fixed most of my issues by going to the database (both ID'ing and fixing). From there went on to learn the API we offered to customers and then made my first vault up the ladder to be a corporate trainer in that API to customers. Then went on to a law firm as an application admin in that app, still increasing my database skills, and now a DBA having nothing to do with that app but could also go back into that niche market if I needed to.

Hair Salad: RussianPooper: I like how the only thing people think IT does is help desk.
This.

to the average layman IT is help desk or desktop support.

Big Al: Odd The Viking Quote 2011-01-27 12:41:41 PM

Your IT department doesn't know how to secure their network. PCs on our managed network very seldom get viruses, and if they do, the IT dept knows about it before the user does. In 8 years, I have seen ONE virus effect one of our servers, and that's because it was new and Symantec hadn't seen it yet. Within 4 hours of it being noticed by one of the server guys, Symantec had a patch out and added it to their automatic updates.

>>

Nobody said a virus outbreak was crippling the network or infecting multiple computers. (they do use Norton though so when it happens is anyone surprised?)

The problem is the amount of manpower it takes to go around in large work environments and reimage those computers that were infected. That's time that the hardware monkey could be doing something else, like deploying new computers, or tracking rogue computers down that did not get updated automatically for some reason. In a campus of thousands of computers it's far harder to have a perfect network setup... especially when a lot of your workers just like academia and are computer clueless except they "just like macs" like almost everyone else who graduates college for some reason.

I have worked in an all mac environment, and while the servers are a little more expensive, you have just as many options as windows, and any good program will run on a unix/linux base. Plus, who the fark wants to deal with exchange anyway? Talk about a time wasting money drain.


You know how I know that you have no farking clue what you're talking about?

/Really there is no such thing as an "Apple Server" anymore
//Even when there was, it had nowhere near the options a proper server does

Thanks for all the input everyone!

Currently working help desk for a local hospital network - just general windows stuff, some app-specific things but nothing really deep (most of that stuff they just want us to collect specific pieces of data before we send the issue elsewhere). I have some experience working in AD creating accounts and adding security groups. I went in to a local cert mill that offers hands-on training for a variety of certs (mcse, ccna, etc) but I am really weary of adding several thousand in student loans to be able to pay for it - I get mixed reviews from people as far as what they think of the training these places give.

I'm a Drupal guy. Desperately looking to hire more Drupal guys, especially in the Washington, DC area. I don't know about other arenas in the IT field, but this particular one, they can't train people fast enough. Especially with Drupal 7 out.

/EIP if you're a drupal guy or wanna be one.

Anavrinman: I'm a Drupal guy. Desperately looking to hire more Drupal guys, especially in the Washington, DC area. I don't know about other arenas in the IT field, but this particular one, they can't train people fast enough. Especially with Drupal 7 out.

/EIP if you're a drupal guy or wanna be one.


I certified in Drupal 6 (yep, i'm oldskool). I could refresh the ol' Drupal skills and recertify in 7 if the money is right.

HallsOfMandos: Thanks for all the input everyone!

Currently working help desk for a local hospital network - just general windows stuff, some app-specific things but nothing really deep (most of that stuff they just want us to collect specific pieces of data before we send the issue elsewhere). I have some experience working in AD creating accounts and adding security groups. I went in to a local cert mill that offers hands-on training for a variety of certs (mcse, ccna, etc) but I am really weary of adding several thousand in student loans to be able to pay for it - I get mixed reviews from people as far as what they think of the training these places give.

Find a place that will pay for your certs, possibly even the hospital you are working for. I would NOT recommend a diploma mill for IT certs. You won't have the experience and you will be out of a lot of cash. Experience > Certs. Find a job that will give you one or the other if not both and work for slave wages while your there beats the shiat outta having a some huge loan.

I have to second that Big Al has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.

Pretty much everything in this thread that you have stated is bunk. It's hard to re-image machines on an MS network. Explain that to my PXE boot SCM deployment. I mean it's so hard. You have to like hit F1 and select option 2, and then wait a whole 30 minutes for a freshly rebuilt pc. And think of those 2 minutes i had to spedn hitting F1. Oh the horror.

And Mac servers? Are you on crack? I work in the financial industry supporting 6000+ servers. They dont make even a quarter of what we run for mac. Plenty of Linux, plenty of Windows, but definitely not Mac.

Last but not least, 50,000+ users and there hasn't been a virus outbreak in over 5 years. And even that one was mitigated within 20 minutes with little to no impact.

Seriously dude, if you are giving people advice on IT, you should probably just STFU as you obviously have no experience in this field.

Ok, one last thing. I use Exchange for every one of my side clients. My oldest client is still running 2003, 50 users. Been my client for 10 years. I've had an issue with the server once, it needed a reboot due to a space issue. Real POS product there requiring me to reboot off schedule once in 10 years.

Anavrinman: /EIP if you're a drupal guy or wanna be one.

Not in D.C., but not too familiar with Drupal. Curious, how does it compare to Wordpress, phpWebSite, CMS Made Simple, PHPNuke, DotNetNuke, PostNuke, e107, etc. (all of which I have used)?

"weary" should be "leery"

....been a looooong week here.

guidonet9:
Ok, one last thing. I use Exchange for every one of my side clients. My oldest client is still running 2003, 50 users. Been my client for 10 years. I've had an issue with the server once, it needed a reboot due to a space issue. Real POS product there requiring me to reboot off schedule once in 10 years.

While I very much feel the same way about Exchange one thing you have to admit, when things go wrong they go really wrong. And Exchange especially 2003 and before is far from a treat to restore if you are looking a blown IS. Exchange 2007 and especially Virtualized Exchange servers have dramatically decreased recovery times however.

/running ISINTEG on a 40+ gig information store is the suck
//VMWare how do I love thee, let me count the ways.....

altinos: Anavrinman: /EIP if you're a drupal guy or wanna be one.

Not in D.C., but not too familiar with Drupal. Curious, how does it compare to Wordpress, phpWebSite, CMS Made Simple, PHPNuke, DotNetNuke, PostNuke, e107, etc. (all of which I have used)?

For large scale integrations, it's amazing. The framework itself can really handle almost anything.

If you're just trying to build a quick website, go with something like ExpressionEngine.

Devlik: guidonet9:
Ok, one last thing. I use Exchange for every one of my side clients. My oldest client is still running 2003, 50 users. Been my client for 10 years. I've had an issue with the server once, it needed a reboot due to a space issue. Real POS product there requiring me to reboot off schedule once in 10 years.

While I very much feel the same way about Exchange one thing you have to admit, when things go wrong they go really wrong. And Exchange especially 2003 and before is far from a treat to restore if you are looking a blown IS. Exchange 2007 and especially Virtualized Exchange servers have dramatically decreased recovery times however.

/running ISINTEG on a 40+ gig information store is the suck
//VMWare how do I love thee, let me count the ways.....

ESXi = WIN

What the hell is a pension?

HallsOfMandos: Thanks for all the input everyone!

Currently working help desk for a local hospital network - just general windows stuff, some app-specific things but nothing really deep (most of that stuff they just want us to collect specific pieces of data before we send the issue elsewhere). I have some experience working in AD creating accounts and adding security groups. I went in to a local cert mill that offers hands-on training for a variety of certs (mcse, ccna, etc) but I am really weary of adding several thousand in student loans to be able to pay for it - I get mixed reviews from people as far as what they think of the training these places give.

Don't pay a cert mill your money to get certified. If your job won't pay for it, buy the books and dedicate an hour or two a night on it till you're ready. Then pay the $125 to take the test.

You hear a lot of mixed reviews as to whether certs are worth it or not, but in the end all you have to do is go to Dice or any job sites and start looking at requirements for IT jobs. Most, if not all of them, either require a cert or "strongly prefer" them. The fact is, HR types and hiring managers still look for that.

Nothing beats hands-on training, but you may as well lay the ground work and learn the basics. You can always build a home lab and experiment, and having those certs might get your foot in the door someplace to gain some real world experience.

Devlik: HallsOfMandos: Thanks for all the input everyone!

Currently working help desk for a local hospital network - just general windows stuff, some app-specific things but nothing really deep (most of that stuff they just want us to collect specific pieces of data before we send the issue elsewhere). I have some experience working in AD creating accounts and adding security groups. I went in to a local cert mill that offers hands-on training for a variety of certs (mcse, ccna, etc) but I am really weary of adding several thousand in student loans to be able to pay for it - I get mixed reviews from people as far as what they think of the training these places give.

Find a place that will pay for your certs, possibly even the hospital you are working for. I would NOT recommend a diploma mill for IT certs. You won't have the experience and you will be out of a lot of cash. Experience > Certs. Find a job that will give you one or the other if not both and work for slave wages while your there beats the shiat outta having a some huge loan.

Oh and I forgot Transcenders (new window) is god like, worth every penny.