karasoth: eddiesocket: TeddyRooseveltsMustache: To me, Star Trek was pretty asexual overall. Except for what Riker had going on with Counselor Troi.

And Sisko and Kassidy, and Odo and Kira, and Dax and Worf, and Dax and Bashir, and Miles and Keiko, and Data and Yar, and Beverly and Picard, and Wesley and Ashley Judd, and Worf and Troi, and Geordi and that engineer chick, and Chakotay and Seven, and Paris and B'lanna, and Nelix and Kes, and....

What about Chakotay with that one Cardassian Chick (who modified herself to look Bajoran) and the same Chick with the Kayzon

and we have the Dr several times to

I know, there were dozens I didn't mention. I was just making the point that Trek isn't asexual at all.

eddiesocket: karasoth: eddiesocket: karasoth: Because short of "Hey look they have a gay couple in sick bay" your not going to have any gay portrayal outside the main or recurring characters that isn't anything short of insulting.

Trust me, it wouldn't have been insulting. That's what you're not getting at all.

Trust me I have seen this done in other shows: Its very insulting and gay groups whine about it

So what are you saying? Can't have gay background characters. Too "insulting". Can't have gay secondary or main characters. "Don't advance the plot". So basically, no gay characters is the way to go, according to you. Except that you claim you would be okay with gay characters. You're not really making your point clear at all.

I like how your not reading what I am writing

I talked about two main characters (Harry Kim and Dax #2) that would have worked BETTER and advanced the story BETTER if they were gay

rynthetyn: karasoth: eddiesocket: karasoth: Because short of "Hey look they have a gay couple in sick bay" your not going to have any gay portrayal outside the main or recurring characters that isn't anything short of insulting.

Trust me, it wouldn't have been insulting. That's what you're not getting at all.

Trust me I have seen this done in other shows: Its very insulting and gay groups whine about it

Because gay groups whined so much about background characters in Doctor Who episodes. Oh wait, they didn't, the show is generally held up as an example for how to do it right.

Dr Who which is watched by a marginal TV viewing audience vs a Trek series that will draw more viewers.

Gay groups whine in ways that get them attention. If Trek did the exact same thing as Dr Who the gay aggitation groups would whine because it would get them more media attention and get them more of a voice in forcing Paramount and whomever had the show to write things they wanted

turbidum: Morpheses: But you don't have a biased perspective as a gay male? Curious. Are only white, straight males able to lack perspective?

/Sorry, but this screams "Help! I'm being repressed!"

I never said I'm not biased. I'm gay and Japanese/German. I know these things influence the way I view/interact with the world.

But I also don't necessarily see the creation of characters that are non-white/non-straight/non-whatever as filling a quota. I view it as a part of the writing process.

I'm not going to say that a writer who ends up writing a show full of straight, white characters is racist or narrow-minded or anything. It could be that that was writer's intention and the world s/he wanted to write about. But to go about thinking that the default world is straight and white and that anything different needs to justify itself is stupid.

We agree then. We all have biases and perspective based on experience, and usually the "default" is what we are ourselves.

MorePeasPlease: [pics of cannons]

Thanks! Was thinking to say something, but your reply is worth 4000 words.

karasoth: also Dr who has a slightly different episode structure then most American shows do. The whole "Pandorica" series of stories is one self contained story with A-C plots that are involved in all the stories under that umbrella

What Moffat is doing with Doctor Who now is something new, not only for Who, but for episodic TV.

It started with the introduction of River Song, and while it became obvious with the Pandorica arc, it's actually just the beginning of a multi-series arc with will run for the next several years. As Moffat said himself, there are a lot of unanswered questions left over from the most recent series.

Mugato: How many relationships in general were in Star Trek? The gay population is like 5% (don't give me that 10% bullshiat GLAD wants you to believe). So how many queers should there have been in a cast of like 20 or so?

Oh look, Mugato has appeared to shower us with his wisdom homo-hate.

karasoth: Gay groups whine in ways that get them attention. If Trek did the exact same thing as Dr Who the gay aggitation groups would whine because it would get them more media attention and get them more of a voice in forcing Paramount and whomever had the show to write things they wanted

Um, wow. Moron or troll?

karasoth: Dr Who which is watched by a marginal TV viewing audience vs a Trek series that will draw more viewers.

Doctor Who is the highest-rated show in the UK when it's on. I would bet you money that it's got more viewers than Enterprise had at its height.

karasoth: eddiesocket: karasoth: eddiesocket: karasoth: Because short of "Hey look they have a gay couple in sick bay" your not going to have any gay portrayal outside the main or recurring characters that isn't anything short of insulting.

Trust me, it wouldn't have been insulting. That's what you're not getting at all.

Trust me I have seen this done in other shows: Its very insulting and gay groups whine about it

So what are you saying? Can't have gay background characters. Too "insulting". Can't have gay secondary or main characters. "Don't advance the plot". So basically, no gay characters is the way to go, according to you. Except that you claim you would be okay with gay characters. You're not really making your point clear at all.

I like how your not reading what I am writing

I talked about two main characters (Harry Kim and Dax #2) that would have worked BETTER and advanced the story BETTER if they were gay

So why are we even discussing this? Gay fans would've loved it if Harry Kim or Ezri were gay! But the fact is, they weren't. (It's still distressing to me, this "advance the plot" stuff, and I realize you obviously mean well and don't know how rude that is, because it clearly comes from a "straights are superior" value system). The doctor from Enterprise (totally blanking on his name because I hated that show and bailed after the first season) was gay in the original draft, then they changed it. Because Trek is clearly uncomfortable with the topic. Which is the whole point of TFA, some acknowledgment that they dropped the ball.

karasoth: eddiesocket: meat0918: FirstNationalBastard: meat0918: FirstNationalBastard: MeinRS6: hmmmmmm...no gays and no arabs in StarTrek. There's a joke in there somewhere........

Bashir was vaguely arabic.

In fact, his mother was Muslim.

Vaguely?

Okay, fine, he was vaguely gay, and he was definitely arabic.

Happy?

No; because for some reason, DS9 doesn't get the love Voyager does. It must be that whole "stuck on a space station" bit.

Voyager had some good eye candy, but was very "meh" and way to much use of the reset button. All the ST series use it, but Voyager was like "Problem for 48 minutes, 2 minutes explaining solution, credits!"

Surely you jest, sir! DS9 was far and away a superior series to Voyager. I've never heard anyone suggest otherwise. It's my favorite series of them all (though I've heard others suggest otherwise).
I think thats a troll

Not a troll. I've met several people that considered Voyager the superior series. They can list 7 or 9 reasons why they like it. I seem to run into Borg fanboys more than Sisko ones as well.

meat0918: karasoth: eddiesocket: meat0918: FirstNationalBastard: meat0918: FirstNationalBastard: MeinRS6: hmmmmmm...no gays and no arabs in StarTrek. There's a joke in there somewhere........

Bashir was vaguely arabic.

In fact, his mother was Muslim.

Vaguely?

Okay, fine, he was vaguely gay, and he was definitely arabic.

Happy?

No; because for some reason, DS9 doesn't get the love Voyager does. It must be that whole "stuck on a space station" bit.

Voyager had some good eye candy, but was very "meh" and way to much use of the reset button. All the ST series use it, but Voyager was like "Problem for 48 minutes, 2 minutes explaining solution, credits!"

Surely you jest, sir! DS9 was far and away a superior series to Voyager. I've never heard anyone suggest otherwise. It's my favorite series of them all (though I've heard others suggest otherwise).
I think thats a troll

Not a troll. I've met several people that considered Voyager the superior series. They can list 7 or 9 reasons why they like it. I seem to run into Borg fanboys more than Sisko ones as well.

That's just sad. Big boobs do not a great series make. I honestly thought the fight was between TOS (the Baby Boomer's pick) TNG and DS9, with Voyager and Enterprise running a very distant fourth and fifth. I know TV Guide declared DS9 the best Trek series at one point. Not sure if anyone else did.

mahuika: Lsherm: 1) Kirk gets laid
2) Everyone else is there to do their job, dammit except for McCoy because he literally has a wall full of liquor in his room

FTFY

Also, off the top of my head, I can think of love stories involving McCoy (the salt creature), Spock (though he spurned all of them except that woman who drugged him), and Chekov. Uhura tries to hit on Spock, too.

Scotty got the girl once, but he was immediately accused of murder and it turned into a 'jack the ripper time travels' episode.

Fano: This thread went 11/10 on the Paul Lynde scale.

Meh. On the Modern Homosexual Scale, Paul Lynde is a 3.

Here's a solid 7; wearing matching Fred Perry shirts with your boyfriend, on the way to the gym:

Doctor Who is the highest-rated show in the UK when it's on. I would bet you money that it's got more viewers than Enterprise had at its height.

Longest running Sci Fi Show in the UK vs the Weakest Show in the Star Trek Series (from a raitings standpoint)

WAY to move those goal posts.

Dr Who ratings for first run episodes in the US vs Trek First run episodes. The comparison is not even close and if you think it is your a damned fool.


Are you being deliberately obtuse? The point is that Doctor Who was quite successful at putting in incidental gay characters that weren't there to advance any plot points, just to reflect the fact that there is a mixture of different sorts of people in the world.

No I am not being Dense. I actually understand Story structure better then you do. In NuWho it advances the story better with those minor characters being gay. (In a similar way for Ben Sisko being black even though it didn't mater 90% of the time in the show advanced trek)


So why are we even discussing this? Gay fans would've loved it if Harry Kim or Ezri were gay! But the fact is, they weren't. (It's still distressing to me, this "advance the plot" stuff, and I realize you obviously mean well and don't know how rude that is, because it clearly comes from a "straights are superior" value system). The doctor from Enterprise (totally blanking on his name because I hated that show and bailed after the first season) was gay in the original draft, then they changed it. Because Trek is clearly uncomfortable with the topic. Which is the whole point of TFA, some acknowledgment that they dropped the ball.
Making the doctor in Enterprise Gay would have been ok for the character but they decided "No we need to make him way more alien with a racial mating pattern that makes no damned sense."

But while I prefer Enterprise to Voyager it is in some respects written FAR worse then Voyager

It started with the introduction of River Song, and while it became obvious with the Pandorica arc, it's actually just the beginning of a multi-series arc with will run for the next several years. As Moffat said himself, there are a lot of unanswered questions left over from the most recent series.

New for TV? MAYBE New for Who? Not really.

Episodes of Who are clumped together into groups of stories. These groups of stories are clumped together into Who Series. River Song is just putting another level on the Who story structure. It MIGHT be different but I haven't seen it enough to say he is right

FuryOfFirestorm: I read that novel..."Section 31: Rogue", IIRC. It was about Lieutenant Hawk (played by Neal McDonough in "First Contact") and his life with his Bajoran lover before he was assimilated and killed. AFAIK, it's offically canon.

Awesome. That's the exact book, yes. Good read, imo.

I liked Hawk's SO. He seemed like the bear-type.

Morpheses: We agree then. We all have biases and perspective based on experience, and usually the "default" is what we are ourselves.

But that default is not an excuse to only use straight, white characters.

eddiesocket: And Sisko and Kassidy, and Odo and Kira, and Dax and Worf, and Dax and Bashir, and Miles and Keiko, and Data and Yar, and Beverly and Picard, and Wesley and Ashley Judd, and Worf and Troi, and Geordi and that engineer chick, and Chakotay and Seven, and Paris and B'lanna, and Nelix and Kes, and....

It never happened

karasoth: But she is always the ultimate voice of authority and everyone agrees with her

even when her ideas are dumbshiat

thats what makes her a super-mary sue.

That doesn't make her a Mary Sue. That makes her the captain. People in the military tend to follow orders from a superior officer.

When the Borg and Voyager had a truce, and Janeway went and got brain damage, Chakotai started going against her last orders... because at that point a) he could and b) when the captain is down, the XO takes over.

wippit: karasoth: But she is always the ultimate voice of authority and everyone agrees with her

even when her ideas are dumbshiat

thats what makes her a super-mary sue.

That doesn't make her a Mary Sue. That makes her the captain. People in the military tend to follow orders from a superior officer.

When the Borg and Voyager had a truce, and Janeway went and got brain damage, Chakotai started going against her last orders... because at that point a) he could and b) when the captain is down, the XO takes over.

Except you know the numerous times Sisko got questioned by Dax and Kira
Numerous times Picard got questioned by Riker
Archer by T"pal
Kirk by Spock and Bones

You should be more familiar with how the STar Trek Series works

wippit: karasoth: But she is always the ultimate voice of authority and everyone agrees with her

even when her ideas are dumbshiat

thats what makes her a super-mary sue.

That doesn't make her a Mary Sue. That makes her the captain. People in the military tend to follow orders from a superior officer.

When the Borg and Voyager had a truce, and Janeway went and got brain damage, Chakotai started going against her last orders... because at that point a) he could and b) when the captain is down, the XO takes over.

Also SEVERAL episodes on TNG and TOS where red shirts and other low rank crew complained about what the people at the top of the pyramid were doing.

In VOyager low rank crew were basically robots

Vanetia: eddiesocket: And Sisko and Kassidy, and Odo and Kira, and Dax and Worf, and Dax and Bashir, and Miles and Keiko, and Data and Yar, and Beverly and Picard, and Wesley and Ashley Judd, and Worf and Troi, and Geordi and that engineer chick, and Chakotay and Seven, and Paris and B'lanna, and Nelix and Kes, and....

It never happened

Sorry, but it's canon. It was even mentioned on subsequent episodes several times.

FirstNationalBastard: ry command, they would have used that futuristic device known as a TIMER to detonate the Caretaker array seconds after they were safely on their way back to the Alpha Quadrant, and would never have been stuck 70,000 Light Years from home in the first place.

Yeah and I am not talking about Just the pilot

I am talking about several years into the show when Janeway told them "we are going to obey the prime directive or else" and they just said

"Darn..."

even when it was costing people their lives.

Thats not what people do, thats what robots do. Their wasn't even any playing out of the tension.

and then Later Janeway stopped following the prime directive in certain situations and again their was no consequence of the change

rynthetyn: karasoth: No I am not being Dense. I actually understand Story structure better then you do. In NuWho it advances the story better with those minor characters being gay. (In a similar way for Ben Sisko being black even though it didn't mater 90% of the time in the show advanced trek)

So a male-male couple dancing together in the background of a scene with absolutely no comment and completely unrelated to the plot advances the story. Instead of proclaiming how you somehow understand story structure better than anybody else in this thread, explain precisely how that somehow advances the story but putting a male-male couple in the background on Trek doesn't.

Or explain why a character in a single episode of Who that uses female pronouns to refer to their ex somehow advances the story when doing the exact same thing in Trek wouldn't.

I'm waiting.

Dr Who has a different Ethos

While Trek is a show about Mankind who has gotten its shiat togther Dr Who is a show from the perspective of the Outsider who knows where we will be/can be WHEN we get our shiat together. And Dr Who does his part to nudge people into being better

thats why it advances the story in Dr Who.

Voyager was better the TNG.

It wouldn't have bothered me one single bit to have a gay character in my beloved star trek, just as gay characters on my current favorite shows don't bother me. I either like the character or I don't. Jack Harkness - yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. Lafayette from True Blood - yaaaaaaaaaaaaay. But star trek always had relatively small ensemble casts and the ships just didn't have any gay people on them I guess. Sometimes there's lots of gay people about,sometimes there's not. I'm fine with it either way - if the next incarnation of star trek has a gay cast member or three that's totally fine with me.

Fano: Where does this rate?

Maybe a 4.5; they're not really anything gay about a nelly queen disguising himself as a salad bar.

/Anything over a 8 would be NSFW, anything over a 10 would probably freak out most of the straight men here.

Dwight_Yeast: Digitalstrange: That combined with the fact that pleasure isn't sought in Klingon culture

O rly?

/keep in mind that pleasure and pain are extremely closely related.

Your handcuffs or mine cowboy?

eddiesocket: karasoth: Because short of "Hey look they have a gay couple in sick bay" your not going to have any gay portrayal outside the main or recurring characters that isn't anything short of insulting.

Trust me, it wouldn't have been insulting. That's what you're not getting at all.

Written by Berman? I'm guessing it would've been awkward and forced at best.

Seriously did you see ANY of the "romance" episodes on TNG? He is almost as bad staging romance as George Lucas.

Dwight_Yeast: karasoth: How would that advance the show (and advance Wesley)

It wouldn't; it just would have addressed the elephant in the room.

The only Gay Elephant in the Star Trek(TOS) room is in a gays mind...

chewielouie: Voyager was better the TNG.

Troll.

NO one believes that.

So a humanity that's gotten its shiat together has absolutely zero visible gay people? Even though in the Star Trek universe, having a mixture of races and species on board is a sign that humanity has moved past their hangups about race? If humanity has gotten their act together and gotten over their petty intolerance, where are the gay people that prove that?

And how are you explaining the fact that in the Who universe, gay people are around living their lives before the Doctor even shows up? Not to mention that if you think that's why RTD put gay people on the show and not because it's a normal fact of life, you're a moron who doesn't understand anything about Russell T. Davies.


Ok I hate to have to say this to a Who Fan....but you clearly don't get your own show

Dr Who is the ultimate Tourist. The fact you see Gay people living their lives and it is ordinary and hunky dory fits with Dr Who's view of humanity. He see's all around him Humanity being the people (or having flashes of being) he knows they can be. And they are so Significant to the Doctor because time and time again in the show Humans have made him better.

Also Homosexuality (as we know it today) has been a product of modernity. Pre-Modern sexuality was very different and who knows future human sexuality may be very different still. And you can't go to far down that rabbit hole without farking it up. While Gene was an Atheist its the same reason Trek avoids human religion like it has the plague -as a rule- (but Alien religions are awesome)

Vanetia: chewielouie: Voyager was better the TNG.

Troll.

NO one believes that.

Definitely confirmed for troll

JohnBigBootay: But star trek always had relatively small ensemble casts

There are a lot more primary characters on TOS than in True Blood or Torchwood and a hell of a lot more primary characters on TNG than on any of them.

Vanetia: chewielouie: Voyager was better the TNG.

Troll.

NO one believes that.

No doubt, but TNG as a series hasn't aged very well imo.

Dwight_Yeast: JohnBigBootay: But star trek always had relatively small ensemble casts

There are a lot more primary characters on TOS than in True Blood or Torchwood and a hell of a lot more primary characters on TNG than on any of them.

And also some significant numbers of Recurring and semi recurring cast members

karasoth: Also Homosexuality (as we know it today) has been a product of modernity. Pre-Modern sexuality was very different and who knows future human sexuality may be very different still.

Human sexuality hasn't changed in thousands of years. Modern notions of binary sexuality are an artifical construct, nothing more.

LeafyGreens: Vanetia: chewielouie: Voyager was better the TNG.

Troll.

NO one believes that.

No doubt, but TNG as a series hasn't aged very well imo.

Well the first two seasons of TNG don't stand as well as the rest of TNG

LeafyGreens: Vanetia: chewielouie: Voyager was better the TNG.

Troll.

NO one believes that.

No doubt, but TNG as a series hasn't aged very well imo.

I disagree. Watch the reruns all the time, most of them hold up pretty well. Some seem more cheesy, but scifi TV always is cheesy

Dwight_Yeast: karasoth: Also Homosexuality (as we know it today) has been a product of modernity. Pre-Modern sexuality was very different and who knows future human sexuality may be very different still.

Human sexuality hasn't changed in thousands of years. Modern notions of binary sexuality are an artifical construct, nothing more.

Yeah no.... I highly recommend you take some gender studies courses

Sex for reproduction dominated human society until the industrial revolution. While men would have homosexual dalliances only a small number of those people would fall into what we consider a homosexual relationship today. But as the Modern industrial society rose up reproduction in MUCH of the world wasn't vital for survival. So people had the liberty to explore other types of sexuality.

karasoth: Well the first two seasons of TNG don't stand as well as the rest of TNG

Agreed. I have the entire series on DVD, but I never touch the first two seasons. We're lucky it managed to last through them to get to season 3 and get good.

I actually can't think of a single 1st or 2nd season TNG show I would actually take the time to pull out the DVD and sit and watch.

I'd probably stop and watch if it happened to be aired on TV, though.

Vanetia: karasoth: Well the first two seasons of TNG don't stand as well as the rest of TNG

Agreed. I have the entire series on DVD, but I never touch the first two seasons. We're lucky it managed to last through them to get to season 3 and get good.

I actually can't think of a single 1st or 2nd season TNG show I would actually take the time to pull out the DVD and sit and watch.

I'd probably stop and watch if it happened to be aired on TV, though.

The first two seasons I think TNG didn't have a sense of what it was as a show and was still trying to emulate TOS

karasoth: The first two seasons I think TNG didn't have a sense of what it was as a show and was still trying to emulate TOS

Yeah look at their second episode. A direct ripoff of a TOS episode.

Like I said, I'm glad they made it to season 3 to get good.