If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(CBC)   The Vatican is busted. A 1997 letter warned Bishops to not report child abuse to police   (cbc.ca) divider line 270
    More: Obvious, Vatican, Catholic bishops, child abuses, local churches, clerics, sexual assaults, Irish people, Amnesty International  
•       •       •

16379 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Jan 2011 at 11:22 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



270 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | » | Last | Show all
 
2011-01-18 11:39:36 PM
At first, I thought it might have to do with the whole confidentiality of the confessional thingy, a stance which is understandable if not justifiable.

However, it turns out the Church is still claiming powers beyond the civil authorities, which it had, I guess, 1200 years ago, but doesn't anymore; and now it's time for them to recognize that. Maybe in 900 AD criminal priests were exempt from the law; but not in 2011 AD.
 
2011-01-18 11:41:07 PM

greentea1985: I understand that the Vatican believes in forgiveness, but what ever happened to "render onto Caesar that which is Caesar's?" Yes the church can forgive you for your crime, but you still owe your debt to the civil authorities. It makes me more glad to be a former Catholic. Several of my family members still believe, but they believe more in the faith than the institution because the Catholic faith is ok but the Catholic Church sucks sometimes.


Describes me perfectly.

/haven't identified as a catholic in years.
//still consider myself a Christian.
 
2011-01-18 11:41:17 PM
This isn't news at all. The church has always been a corrupt, evil organization solely concerned with its own welfare, damn what happens to to the victims it leaves in its wake. This is just yet more proof.
 
2011-01-18 11:42:21 PM

ontariolightning: let me tell you, I used to be a jehovahs witness, when someone would try to tell me the truth about my religion i'd deny it and say they were making up lies to discredit my religion

now that i know better and half my family has shunned me I know how they'll react, they'll just deny it


Jehovah's Witnesses. I know a lot about them. I'm generally an asshole around here. Well, everywhere. But I'm genuinely sorry for what you must have gone through. Your family is wrong, not you. You don't need me to tell you that but I did anyway. You made the right choice. Don't ever doubt that.
 
2011-01-18 11:42:36 PM

Fark It: If these were Muslim clerics we were talking about the Vatican would be a pile of rubble.


Nope, sorry, they would be (and are) hiding it too.
 
2011-01-18 11:43:04 PM

Bucky Katt: Old news. Penn & Teller covered this in season 7 episode 10.


I quit watching that show after they came up with some phony arguments to discredit global warming.
 
2011-01-18 11:44:45 PM
Mugato
Jehovah's Witnesses. I know a lot about them. I'm generally an asshole around here. Well, everywhere. But I'm genuinely sorry for what you must have gone through. Your family is wrong, not you. You don't need me to tell you that but I did anyway. You made the right choice. Don't ever doubt that.

Thank you Mugato
 
2011-01-18 11:45:13 PM

bingo the psych-o: Fark It: If these were Muslim clerics we were talking about the Vatican would be a pile of rubble.

Nope, sorry, they would be (and are) hiding it too.


However, theocratic Muslim nations actually have a chance of convicting pedophilic clerics and stoning them in the streets. Whereas us impotent Westerners can only sit back and watch while the Vatican gets away with it scot-free once again.
 
rmz
2011-01-18 11:45:40 PM

Fark It: If these were Muslim clerics we were talking about the Vatican would be a pile of rubble.


Why would we bomb the Vatican based on the actions of some Muslim clerics?
 
2011-01-18 11:45:50 PM
big ben, parliament.
 
2011-01-18 11:47:16 PM
This should get REALLY good...

i173.photobucket.com
 
2011-01-18 11:47:21 PM
The Catholic church:

1. Was born because they didn't want to share power with the church of Justinian
2. Enabled and help to organize the Crusades.
3. Forced priest to chose their family or their job when they adopted celibacy.
4. Persecuted Galileo and other scientists because it went against scripture.
5. Hides kiddie farkers behind words of the Pope and their God.
6. Still considers nearly every form of a birth control a mortal sin (the pill, condoms, vasectome, tubal ligation...)

Fark the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
Fark those that are 'thankful' for the 1000's of good priests (that cover and provide funds for the bad).


/raised Catholic... got over it.
 
2011-01-18 11:47:38 PM
That's it...I'm done with defending Catholics...this crap has gone too far.

Its time they clean up their house.
 
2011-01-18 11:48:18 PM
Has the letter been released to the public? Can we read it?
 
2011-01-18 11:48:24 PM

rmz: Fark It: If these were Muslim clerics we were talking about the Vatican would be a pile of rubble.

Why would we bomb the Vatican based on the actions of some Muslim clerics?


Let me try and explain the allegory to you:

If the Vatican were the centre of the Muslim religion, and if it were Muslim clerics that had committed these acts, and given the current Western attitudes towards Muslims, the writer is implying that the response would be far more harsh than it will be under the present/real circumstances.
 
2011-01-18 11:49:20 PM

112Error: bingo the psych-o: Fark It: If these were Muslim clerics we were talking about the Vatican would be a pile of rubble.

Nope, sorry, they would be (and are) hiding it too.

However, theocratic Muslim nations actually have a chance of convicting pedophilic clerics and stoning them in the streets. Whereas us impotent Westerners can only sit back and watch while the Vatican gets away with it scot-free once again.


I don't think pedophilia is a crime in most of those Muslim theocratic countries. I'm pretty sure a lot of those poor girls are sold off pretty early to dirty old men. They're much more likely to stone somebody for showing an ankle, or for being gay, than they are for something actually evil.

That being said, I do think that the reason the Vatican's been able to get away with all this is because they hide themselves behind their costly gowns and call themselves "holy." Even now, some of the rabid Catholics still try and protect Ratzinger, blaming the church's crimes on "atheists" or gays or the media. Anything but accepting reality.
 
rmz
2011-01-18 11:51:06 PM

112Error: rmz: Why would we bomb the Vatican based on the actions of some Muslim clerics?

Let me try and explain the allegory to you:


I was making a joke based on the wording of the previous reply.
 
2011-01-18 11:51:11 PM
i125.photobucket.com

I love religion. It's so funny.
 
2011-01-18 11:51:13 PM

Mugato: ontariolightning: how can you be pro catholic after this?

Seriously. I'm not trying to be a dick (that comes naturally, pun intended) but Catholics out there, how do you put money in the collection plate, in light of all this constant shiat?


That just reminded me of my first "hey, wait a minute" moment with the Catholic church growing up. Here I am a little kid putting my 50 cents into an ornate collection plate, while a guy in fancy white robes and all kinds of gold candlesticks and marble statues tells me they need my 50 cents to help the poor.

"Hey wait a minute! Why don't you sell all that fancy ornamental crap and give that money to the poor? Why'd you even buy that in the first place?"

And thus ended my bout of Catholicism.
 
2011-01-18 11:52:57 PM

112Error: By feeling loyalty to the local parish, as opposed to the Church as a whole?


Even though the diocese feels no loyalty at all to its parishoners? My parents have never had the same priest for more than a couple of years because the diocese is always shuffling people around in order to milk the rich parishes for more cash and shuffle off the poor earners by making them cover several parishes at once.

In Indiana, my great-uncle was made to cover several small rural parishes, driving between each on the weekends to have as many masses as possible, on top of doing work at prisons during the week (his real passion). All the while, up in the rich suburb where my parents lived, the two priests assigned to that one parish were constantly going on fully-financed retreats to Aspen paid for by the harping, guilt-tripping and utter fleecing of the parishoners. They brought in (with the TWO collections per mass) as much in a week as my great uncle would bring in all year at his small parishes, and yet were always complaining that the previous week hadn't met the "parish goals".

The church doesn't give a shiat about you. If you like your neighbors, you can still like them without donating to corrupt bullshiat and putting up with whatever kiddy-farker ends up re-assigned to your area due to his fundraising skills.

/recovering Catholic
//recently got my 10 year chip
 
2011-01-18 11:53:15 PM

112Error: Mugato: ontariolightning: how can you be pro catholic after this?

Seriously. I'm not trying to be a dick (that comes naturally, pun intended) but Catholics out there, how do you put money in the collection plate, in light of all this constant shiat?

By feeling loyalty to the local parish, as opposed to the Church as a whole? That's where the collection goes. The Vatican makes so much money off of business interests and holdings worldwide that they basically don't gather the collections.

Seriously, I like the people in the congregation, I like my local priests (Barnabites, an order of reformers), and I like many Catholics of my own age, but the Church itself needs to basically have a complete turnover and start anew.

One of the few pieces of solace I find in all this is that the farkwits in charge are all in their 60s at minimum. That means, God willing, they will all be long dead before I am, and so I will see people of my (hopefully more tolerant) generation in charge some day, if the Church doesn't nosedive and die out by that point.


But it's not logical to believe that only the ones who are now old are the only guilty ones. I seriously doubt that these f*ckers just woke up one day and magically decided to not carry on the priestly tradition. I guarantee there are plenty priests way younger than 60 who deserve to fry in the seventh level of hell.
 
2011-01-18 11:54:41 PM

PanicMan: Mugato: ontariolightning: how can you be pro catholic after this?

Seriously. I'm not trying to be a dick (that comes naturally, pun intended) but Catholics out there, how do you put money in the collection plate, in light of all this constant shiat?

That just reminded me of my first "hey, wait a minute" moment with the Catholic church growing up. Here I am a little kid putting my 50 cents into an ornate collection plate, while a guy in fancy white robes and all kinds of gold candlesticks and marble statues tells me they need my 50 cents to help the poor.

"Hey wait a minute! Why don't you sell all that fancy ornamental crap and give that money to the poor? Why'd you even buy that in the first place?"

And thus ended my bout of Catholicism.


Mine was being told that "Being gay is an evil sin!" by priests who were obviously flaming queens. That, and seeing ads for "couples counseling" and "marriage counseling" being given by men who were supposedly celibate. Of course, the stuff you mentioned were a factor too; seeing the Pope, with his golden crown and golden throne and priceless dress going on and on about the "plight of the poor" made me sick to my stomach.
 
2011-01-18 11:55:08 PM
Mugato: Jehovah's Witnesses. I know a lot about them. I'm generally an asshole around here. Well, everywhere. But I'm genuinely sorry for what you must have gone through. Your family is wrong, not you. You don't need me to tell you that but I did anyway. You made the right choice. Don't ever doubt that.

I 100% with Mugato. You made the right decision, ontariolightning. Don't look back or second guess yourself. Hopefully, your family will come to their senses and leave the JW's. I left 15 years ago and my only regret was not leaving that shiatty cult sooner.
 
2011-01-18 11:55:09 PM

Freudian_slipknot: /recovering Catholic


Seems like there's quite a few of us here.
 
2011-01-18 11:55:57 PM

PanicMan: Freudian_slipknot: /recovering Catholic

Seems like there's quite a few of us here.


There might be hope for this planet after all.
 
2011-01-18 11:59:59 PM
It's a wistful moment, to be sure, to realize that a centuries-old institution is no rock, but a sand castle ... and the waves of rationality, common sense and our current conception of justice are lapping its foundation.

Just wondering, seriously, has that denomination always sanctioned sexual abuse? Like during the 1700s? The 1800s?
 
2011-01-19 12:01:18 AM

PanicMan: That just reminded me of my first "hey, wait a minute" moment with the Catholic church growing up. Here I am a little kid putting my 50 cents into an ornate collection plate, while a guy in fancy white robes and all kinds of gold candlesticks and marble statues tells me they need my 50 cents to help the poor.

"Hey wait a minute! Why don't you sell all that fancy ornamental crap and give that money to the poor? Why'd you even buy that in the first place?"


i23.photobucket.com
 
2011-01-19 12:02:06 AM
Well I guess that franchise is shot to hell. What else ya got?
 
2011-01-19 12:03:49 AM

RLupin: Mine was being told that "Being gay is an evil sin!" by priests who were obviously flaming queens. That, and seeing ads for "couples counseling" and "marriage counseling" being given by men who were supposedly celibate. Of course, the stuff you mentioned were a factor too; seeing the Pope, with his golden crown and golden throne and priceless dress going on and on about the "plight of the poor" made me sick to my stomach.


Yeah, it was all downhill from there. "Why should I pray to Mary?" "Why did I memorize all these songs and rituals without any understanding of what they mean?" "Where does it say that in the bible?" "How does repeating a prayer 20 times make sin go away?" "You think that wafer and wine literally turn into human blood and flesh in your mouth? And then you're ok with eating those things?"
 
2011-01-19 12:05:17 AM
Old news is old.

If you haven't realized years ago that the Catholic Church exists only to perpetuate its own power, and it's hierarchy is filthy with pedophiles and sympathizers, then all the letters in the world aren't going to help.
 
2011-01-19 12:06:44 AM

NutWrench: I remember that show. A late night comedy program like Saturday Night Live was not her best choice for a rant against the Catholic Church. When you tear up a picture of the Pope on national TV, don't just assume that everyone knows what the fark you're talking about. Write a book or go on a morning talk show. Everyone's attention that night was focused on the messenger instead of the message and she came across as a total nut.


people thought she was a nut about it because they were too busy supporting the catholic church and being ignorant about the world. surprise?

ignorant people refuse to look at things outside of their viewpoint.
 
2011-01-19 12:08:09 AM
FTFA's URL: ... vativan-letter-sex-abuse-ireland.html

The 4Chan Party Van?
 
2011-01-19 12:09:12 AM

Huck And Molly Ziegler: Just wondering, seriously, has that denomination always sanctioned sexual abuse? Like during the 1700s? The 1800s?


http://www.oddee.com/item_96537.aspx

Alexander VI had 4 openly acknowledged bastard children, including a daughter that he kept as a mistress and presumably had another bastard child by. So that's fun. Also, all the orgies were pretty sweet, especially when he had naked little boys jump out of cakes at the end.
 
2011-01-19 12:09:35 AM

farkingatwork: NutWrench: I remember that show. A late night comedy program like Saturday Night Live was not her best choice for a rant against the Catholic Church. When you tear up a picture of the Pope on national TV, don't just assume that everyone knows what the fark you're talking about. Write a book or go on a morning talk show. Everyone's attention that night was focused on the messenger instead of the message and she came across as a total nut.

people thought she was a nut about it because they were too busy supporting the catholic church and being ignorant about the world. surprise?

ignorant people refuse to look at things outside of their viewpoint.


that's crosseyedist.
 
2011-01-19 12:10:09 AM

FuryOfFirestorm: I left 15 years ago and my only regret was not leaving that shiatty cult sooner.


I hope "she" made the same decision. I'll probably never know.
 
2011-01-19 12:10:16 AM
Please allow me to jump in and say that if you feel repulsion to the Catholic Church but attraction to the teachings and person of Jesus, there are PLENTY of other churches. They all have issues of course but nothing THIS severe. The Bible is clear that the Christian religion can not be practiced in solitude, with a 'just me and my Bible' attitude. You need to either disavow all Christianity now, or find a new denomination, and soon. Otherwise you will simply disavow Christianity out of simple atrophy.
 
2011-01-19 12:11:45 AM
Yet another recovering Catholic here.

I remember, a few years ago when this shiat was in the news again, my priest told the church a story of some saint or something.

The guy wanted to become a priest, so he decided to visit Rome to study theology. But his local priests, who had been to Rome and seen all the corruption tried to persuade him not to go. But the guy went anyway. And saw the corruption. And decided to become a Catholic priest anyway.

When asked why seeing the corruption in Rome did not make him sick of the church he explained "The fact that the church survived 1500 years with that much corruption is a miracle in itself. God must be watching over the Catholic church."

Moral of the story: The fact that the church systematically raped kiddies for decades is PROOF that Catholicism is the one true religion.
 
2011-01-19 12:12:25 AM

Valentine Greatraks: A letter like that in almost any other circumstance is evidence of a criminal conspiracy and worthy of serious jail time.


And why not this circumstance?
 
2011-01-19 12:12:40 AM
Color me shocked. I left the Church months after being confirmed and seconds after setting foot back into Italy after visiting Vatican City. The true weight of the farce that is the Catholic Church cannot be fully explained unless you visit its nerve center. On the outside, it is like Disneyland for Catholics. But underneath that veneer (for lack of a better term) you can actually sense the seediness and criminality of it all...I can't remember if I could smell it, or taste it, or "feel" it, but it was there. And it so thoroughly disturbed me.

/later that trip I visited Dachau
//that trip left me pretty cynical about humans
///CSB
 
2011-01-19 12:13:49 AM

GentDirkly: The Bible is clear that the Christian religion can not be practiced in solitude, with a 'just me and my Bible' attitude.


Matthew 6 begs to differ

5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
 
2011-01-19 12:14:30 AM

GentDirkly: Please allow me to jump in and say that if you feel repulsion to the Catholic Church but attraction to the teachings and person of Jesus, there are PLENTY of other churches. They all have issues of course but nothing THIS severe.


Both sides are bad, so vote Jesus?
 
2011-01-19 12:14:57 AM

AdolfOliverPanties: So what do the Catholics do?

Try to fast-track the guy overseeing the church at that time for sainthood.


There's no indication that John Paul II was connected to that letter, or indeed that policy. That being said, I really, *really* want to believe he wasn't involved. The man was instrumental to the fall of communism, decried the Holocaust, and at one point stated that those with homosexual inclinations had the same inherent dignity and rights as everybody else. You don't have to be Catholic to find that he was generally a pretty classy guy.

/agnostic
 
2011-01-19 12:15:13 AM
If the bible says sodomy is bad, then how do these priest have sex with the boys?
 
2011-01-19 12:16:51 AM

GentDirkly: Please allow me to jump in and say that if you feel repulsion to the Catholic Church but attraction to the teachings and person of Jesus, there are PLENTY of other churches. They all have issues of course but nothing THIS severe. The Bible is clear that the Christian religion can not be practiced in solitude, with a 'just me and my Bible' attitude. You need to either disavow all Christianity now, or find a new denomination, and soon. Otherwise you will simply disavow Christianity out of simple atrophy.


And this is bad how? If Christianity atrophies, it deserves it. Are Protestant churches havens of sainthood? Hardly.

I reject your "must have a denomination" reality, and substitute my own: no Christian needs to follow any set of established teachings, so long as they follow the teachings of Jesus and God.

Obvious evangelist is obvious.
 
2011-01-19 12:17:21 AM

Freudian_slipknot: There might be hope for this planet after all.


**internet fist bump of solidarity**

RLupin:

you get one too
 
2011-01-19 12:18:12 AM

Twist2005: decried the Holocaust, and at one point stated that those with homosexual inclinations had the same inherent dignity and rights as everybody else.


Whoa. What a saint!

I mean, I know standards for the church are low, but when treating others with basic farking human dignity is considered worthy of sainthood you might have a skewed perspective
 
2011-01-19 12:18:49 AM

lordlight: If the bible says sodomy is bad, then how do these priest have sex with the boys?


It's really easy. You see, sodomy isn't a mortal sin, which means they can atone for it. Just sprinkle a little holy water, a few hail marys and our fathers and all is forgiven and you're still eligible for heaven.
 
2011-01-19 12:21:24 AM

AdolfOliverPanties: So what do the Catholics do?

Try to fast-track the guy overseeing the church at that time for sainthood.



And replace him as Pope with the guy who was in charge of the office of the Vatican that was supposed to be investigating charges of molestation. As this thing unfolds, I have a feeling that we're going to find that Benedict's fingerprints all over it. Based on what I've read of him, he seems like the kind of guy who would put the reputation of the Church over the well-being of its flock.

/"Kirche über alles", if you will.
 
2011-01-19 12:26:03 AM
Non issue; Overzealous staffer

Nothing will come of this so long as the Vatican is a sovereign nation. They could say "Fark you I'm a child molester" and it wouldn't make a lick of difference.
 
2011-01-19 12:26:10 AM
They are permitted to lie to protect the Church.

Link (Doctrine of mental reservation) Wiki

The Irish Catholic Church flagrantly misused the concept of mental reservation when dealing with situations relating to clerical child sexual abuse, by disregarding all the restrictions placed on its employment by moral theologians and treating it as an all-purpose method that "allows clerics (to) mislead people...without being guilty of lying",[15] for example when dealing with the police, victims, civil authorities and media. In the Murphy Report into the Sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic archdiocese of Dublin, Cardinal Desmond Connell describes it thus:
" Well, the general teaching about mental reservation is that you are not permitted to tell a lie. On the other hand, you may be put in a position where you have to answer, and there may be circumstances in which you can use an ambiguous expression realising that the person who you are talking to will accept an untrue version of whatever it may be - permitting that to happen, not willing that it happened, that would be lying. It really is a matter of trying to deal with extraordinarily difficult matters that may arise in social relations where people may ask questions that you simply cannot answer. Everybody knows that this kind of thing is liable to happen. So mental reservation is, in a sense, a way of answering without lying.

Wikipedia
Link (even more on subject)
 
Displayed 50 of 270 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | » | Last | Show all



This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report