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(BBSpot)   Star Trek pundit blasted at convention for controversial theory that a star destroyer could whoop the Enterprise E   (bbspot.com) divider line 201
    More: Satire  
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19069 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Jul 2003 at 1:12 PM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



201 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread
 
2003-07-15 01:19:15 PM
i've heard my pals have this argument before. very funny.
 
2003-07-15 01:21:24 PM
What about a borg ship or the klingons around uranus?
 
2003-07-15 01:21:42 PM
Are we sure this is satire? My other half is a TrekNerd and they have their meetings at our house sometimes - when I do bite the bullet and stick around, I listen, and yes, I too have heard this argued. Seriously. I just close the door and turn on porn or baseball, anything to drown it out.
 
2003-07-15 01:21:46 PM
I'll quote the story by saying that whole website has become "Stupid and Gay"
 
2003-07-15 01:25:02 PM
Shadows 0wn!
 
2003-07-15 01:25:31 PM
Dude, Yamato/Argo OWNZ!

Hnuh, Hnuuuuuuhhhhh Hnuh-Hnuh-Hnuh!
 
2003-07-15 01:26:16 PM
But the real question is, can you get out of the dungon without using the wizard key?
 
2003-07-15 01:26:57 PM
!*&#$ Swiss websites! Feh!
 
2003-07-15 01:28:34 PM
I AM WARF.... I AM KLIGNON
 
2003-07-15 01:28:34 PM
It's a lot of fun to point and laugh at the ones who are slightly less cool than we.
 
2003-07-15 01:28:59 PM

BBSpot: The Trouble with Satire.


 
2003-07-15 01:29:05 PM
But who would win in a fight:

The T-1000 mimetic polyalloy robot from Terminator 2

-OR-

Agent Smith from the Matrix
 
2003-07-15 01:31:17 PM
These guys?
 
2003-07-15 01:31:19 PM
Wow, the article is frighteningly not funny. Most BB Spot articles are pretty bad, but they're just bad. This absolutely lacks humor of any kind, and is just painful, with no redeeming qualities.
 
2003-07-15 01:31:20 PM
Star Trek is in the distant future and Star Wars was a long time ago....in a galaxy far far away. Two different timelines! Stupid and Gay lol:)
 
2003-07-15 01:31:39 PM
Pfff... Both would get pwned by the Pillar of Autumn with the Chief on board.

Hehe, really, I don't know who could win here. But that guy was a dumbass to tell a bunch of Trekkies that. Asshat.
 
2003-07-15 01:31:43 PM
This is so stupid. Every one knows that Star Wars is based on more realistic science than Star Trek.

The Death Star could take down the Borg anytime....
 
2003-07-15 01:33:27 PM
Someone, please, assure me that this is in fact just satire because if it's true, it's the saddest thing I have ever read.
 
2003-07-15 01:33:38 PM
************ Nerd Alert, Nerd Alert ****************
 
2003-07-15 01:34:32 PM
Gabbo

That is an interesting question, but i would have to say that we would have to know whether you mean Smith from Matrix, or Matrix reloaded....

This would be a good debate....
 
2003-07-15 01:34:41 PM
The borg could just assimilate all the Jedi and they would become unstoppable.

And of course Q could always just teleport that Star Destroyer all the way to the beta quadrant and they wouldn't be able to make it back for hundreds of years.

No way those Star Wars fools would stand a chance!
 
2003-07-15 01:34:46 PM
This guy could whoop them all...



Beware the Dweed...
 
2003-07-15 01:34:52 PM
You mean this isnt real?
 
2003-07-15 01:36:18 PM
basically star trek ships give me the impression they couldn't even take a tie fighter. Every episode they're getting their ass kicked by someone. I don't think a federation ship could defeat another federation ship.

Oh wait, they did it in wrath of kahn. The only time I saw the enterprise actually win a fight.

Hell, even with a klingon on board they suck.
 
2003-07-15 01:36:19 PM
What is really FUNNY (or not at all for me), is that being a CS major I have to endure hearing these conversations constantly. As if the body odor and hardcore japanese fanaticism weren't enough, I have to be put through this every day as well.

I really should have just sticked to an easy liberal arts major and been in class with a bunch of hotties instead.
 
2003-07-15 01:36:51 PM
BritneysSpeculum -- BBSpot is, in fact, a satire site. However, if you searched for "crossovers" or "fanfic", you could probably find just-as-pathetic claims and debates made in earnest.
 
2003-07-15 01:37:08 PM
Dude, Agent Smith. Huge Weaving is totally badass, just look at his hair line
 
2003-07-15 01:37:15 PM
This article failed to answer my burning question about who has better tractor beams - the Federation or the Empire?
 
2003-07-15 01:37:17 PM
Everyone knows that the spaceship to root for is the Red Dwarf
.
..
...
Smegheads!
 
2003-07-15 01:38:47 PM
Sci-fi pundit Marc Eisenburg, 38 of Apple Valley, Minnesota
Lets do the Star Trek Geek check list

Lives in his parents basement-check
Has never kissed a girl - check
Owns a red Star Trek Security crewman shirt-check
Believes Sci Fi movies are real- check

Chances of getting laid after this article, slim to nil!
 
2003-07-15 01:38:55 PM
Dood,

Everyone knows that the Star Destroyer would win.

/obvious
 
2003-07-15 01:39:05 PM
The Sun Crusher would obliterate any Borg cube...
 
2003-07-15 01:40:56 PM
I think Tron would whip them all.
 
2003-07-15 01:41:50 PM
Now, if it's classic Trek, and Scotty's drunk, and Kirk and his entire senior staff are stuck on the planet's surface, and Kirk just got done molesting the green broad, then hell yeah, Scotty will blast any non Federation vessel out of the sky.
 
2003-07-15 01:45:47 PM
Funnier than satire is actual arguements about this.

I can't wait to tell my wife I'm cooler than someone.
 
2003-07-15 01:46:58 PM
Ahh, let me be the first trekker to put in his $0.02

The Enterprise E vs a Super Star Destroyer may be an interesting match, however vs a simple Star Destroyer its doubtful it be much of a head ache for the Enterprise.
I personally doubt though that the influences of the force can carry over such long distances as from the Command bridge of a Start Destroyer, which is near the rear to the bridge of a Sovereign Class Star Ship which is about 2/3 from the back tip of the nacelles. This compounded with such things as shields makes it highly unlikely Vader could exert all too much influence.

In any event if it is assumed that Vader did succeed in doing so, one has to consider that this Jedai mind trick only works on weak-minded individuals. Hence it is questionable if it would work on Picard, a man who was able to regain his individuality after being assimilated. Also its doubtful Data, if this fight was pre- Nemesis, be affected.
Now as to technical differences.

The shields of empire ships seem not to be too hard to get through. If I remember correctly it was easily taken out by a kamikaze run from someone in an X-wing. This could be accomplished by loading antai mater in a shuttle and remote piloting it in to the shield generator, unless you wish to take a page from Nemesis and just ram the Enterprise into that particular section of the Destroyer.

As for weaponry, the Empire seems to outfit its ships with the equivalent of Klingon / Romulan Disrupters. However, the enterprise has Photon torpedoes as well as Quantam and even perhaps Tri Colbalt torpedoes. It would also have standard Phasers to deal with possible squadrons of tie fighters.

/Remember Trekker, not trekkie
 
2003-07-15 01:47:16 PM
I have a midget friend, and an albino friend. Together we call ourselves "The Unfarkables"
 
2003-07-15 01:52:15 PM
I've heard several arguments about SW vs ST, the funniest were what would happen if the Death Star fought a Borg Cube, and who would win if a Wookie fought a Klingon.

Hypothetical arguments about fictional characters are almost as fun as political flamewars.
 
2003-07-15 01:54:41 PM
300lbs_Gorilla wrote:
Funnier than satire is actual arguements about this.
I can't wait to tell my wife I'm cooler than someone.

Ok, I'll retract my earlier statement. The saddest thing I've ever read is on the link provided by the Gorilla. I fear for the future of my country.
 
2003-07-15 01:58:41 PM
Many moons ago when I was in the Navy, this guy transferred to our command from the USS Missouri, an old and very famous WWII vintage ship. I'm pretty sure the Japanese signed the surrender papers on it.

Anyways, the guy was a total Missouri dork. No matter what the subject of conversation, he'd try to steer it back to either something similar that occurred on the Missouri, or the ship itself.

Well, one time I said a modern Navy destroyer could probably take out Mighty Mo'. Big mistake!

Our boy started sputtering on about the Missouri's firepower, it's armor, all kinds of stuff. Got all kinds of mad about it. Other people heard us talking (well, I was talking, but homeboy was all spun up like daffy duck vs bugs bunny) so they joined in and it devolved into 4-5 guys talking shiat about the Missouri, and how bad it sucked and so on.

so, it ended up with our boy hissing <drama tag> "the USS Missouri will NEVER be defeated!" <close drama tag> and storming off.


"totally stupid and gay"
 
2003-07-15 01:58:41 PM
Whew! What a relief--BBSpot managed to get that article in just before the Star Trek franchise's death rattle. Probably makes up for all those Babylon 5 jokes they thought of just a year or two too late.
 
2003-07-15 01:59:33 PM
You see

http://wso.williams.edu/~rfoxwell/starwars/ships/ISD.htm

It is the 72 tie fighters (yes, i know they blow up fast), the 5 gunboats (which, are devistatingly effective if you have played Tie Fighter), but trully, it is the 60 ion cannons that would fark up the Enterprise in no time flat,

Hell, a couple of photon torpedoes would cash out the Enterprise once those babies had their way.
 
2003-07-15 02:03:38 PM
I was going to ask why people found this BBSpot site funny, with its ham-fisted attempts at satire, when there's the feather-light deft touch of subtle genius at The Onion, just another click away. But, then I realized that apparently no one here finds BBSpot funny. Thank God, renewing my faith in Farkers.
 
2003-07-15 02:04:17 PM
I personally doubt though that the influences of the force can carry over such long distances as from the Command bridge of a Start Destroyer, which is near the rear to the bridge of a Sovereign Class Star Ship which is about 2/3 from the back tip of the nacelles. This compounded with such things as shields makes it highly unlikely Vader could exert all too much influence.

I'm not too sure about the effects of shielding on the Force, but there is a flaw in your argument. Through the Force, Obi-Wan was able to sense the destruction of Alderran (the "thousands of voices crying out")

/can't believe I'm writing this.
 
2003-07-15 02:06:24 PM
Star Trek, however, has hotter babes.... Janice Rand, 7 of 9, T'Paul, Janeway....

er...

Scratch that.
 
2003-07-15 02:07:15 PM
(Slowy putting on the flame retardant suit)

You know, The Lexx and Moya from farscape would kick all their asses...

Amd at least in those shows people get laid. ROFL...
 
2003-07-15 02:08:53 PM
dreadnought: it was an A WING, not a X WING!!!

/shakes head because I knew that.....
 
2003-07-15 02:09:02 PM
Pman - good call with the sun crusher..it would fly right through it.

They didn't classify what type of star destroyer? An imp class would get it's arse beat but a super would crush them.
 
2003-07-15 02:09:15 PM
im not expert in either starwars or startrek but doesnt a star destroyer have lots of guns or "blaster" and there like 10 times the size! the carry brigades and brigades of infantry and ground attack thinks like that AT AT plus all those ships and tie fighters. what does the Enterprise have? aside from gay uniforms, a blind engineer, a balding and ahem.......french captain . <--battle already lost he ran away long ago. oh ya a wonderfull aura of colourful laser weapons all they need now are purple horse shoes and maybe the gay flag in the brigde.
 
2003-07-15 02:09:51 PM
Now, Adama and Lloyd Bridges could take out both.
 
2003-07-15 02:11:55 PM
A star destroyer? Hell, the Millenium Falcon could take out the Enterprise!

/poking at the Star Trek geeks with a pointy stick
 
2003-07-15 02:18:43 PM
This site will answer all your question:

http://www.merzo.net/

I do believe it's all a question of weight ratios.

/monty python
 
2003-07-15 02:22:56 PM
/Remember Trekker, not trekkie

You say "Trekker" I say "dork"
 
2003-07-15 02:23:28 PM
Ok, I cant believe I am responding to your response

radiofreewill

As you stated, Obi-Wan was able to sense the destruction of Alderran. This can be seen that LARGE disturbances in the force can be SENSED from a far distance. Its questionable if the force can be manipulated to INFLUENCE a person from far away. One also has to consider that the destruction of Alderran was an entire plant being destroyed, which although Vader is the one who is said to have the most control over the force, its unlikely he could have as much of an impact on it as an entire plant being destroyed.

tlenon

YES, I agree that the Lexx could definitely kick some serious butt. No contest, if it was not oh so vary hungry, and Stanley was doing his job, it could take out the Enterprise no problem.
However, I dont think Moya could do much of anything except use Star Burst as a defensive maneuver to run away.
 
2003-07-15 02:30:38 PM
*sigh* there's no help for it.

///FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DON'T READ THIS///

dreadnought right back atcha.

A star destroyer would destroy the Enterprise-E, although it would be more of an even match.

...unlikely Vader could exert all too much influence.

You have obviously never heard of Jedi battle meditation. However, leaving that aside for the moment, what if Vader was to succeed in hailing the Enterprise with a cease-fire offer and a request for negotiations? The weakling federation types would be forced to acquiesce, in which case Vader could show up in the ready room and strangle 'em all.

The shields of empire ships seem not to be too hard to get through.

Whereas the shields of Star Trek ships are indestructible, eh? I don't think you can make any claims for superior shielding technology based on the number of Enterprises they've run through in the movies alone, to say nothing of ships like USS Yamato and USS Stargazer, which picard notwithstanding, was severely damaged by a bunch of Ferengi.

antai mater in a shuttle and remote piloting it in to the shield generator, unless you wish to take a page from Nemesis and just ram the Enterprise into that particular section of the Destroyer.

Antimatter. Say it: anti-matter. Unless you were typing in a curious blend of latin and mongolian, in which case a horde commander mother would indeed be a formidable opponent.

As for weaponry, the Empire seems to outfit its ships with the equivalent of Klingon / Romulan Disrupters. However, the enterprise has Photon torpedoes as well as Quantam

Quantum.

and even perhaps Tri Colbalt torpedoes. It would also have standard Phasers to deal with possible squadrons of tie fighters.

Here we come to the crux of the matter. I view the Enterprise, and indeed all Star Trek ships, as having a rather poor kill record when faced with multiple, swiftly moving opponents. Witness the Yamato's destruction when faced with several smaller, faster Dominion warcraft. Phaser beams don't track quickly enough, and the enterprise doesn't carry enough of them to fend off massed TIEs.

Look at the trends in human naval development. In the 20th century, battleships mounting large guns fulfilling the same functions as the Enterprise's phasers and photon torpedoes were replaced as the main capital ships of serious naval forces due to their ability to project stand-off force over greater distances than a battleship's guns could reach. Similarly, a Star Destroyer or other Star Wars capital ship could stand off all day and pound the Enterprise E with fighter strikes, leaving it crippled and venting bits of crew and atmosphere into the void.

Lastly, my final and most important argument is that geek geek geek, geek geek geek, geekity geek geek geek. Geeking the geek of the geek geek geeker, the geeking can be said to geek all the geek to geek a lot.

I will now go out and shoot myself in the head.

Sincerely,
Far too much geek.

///CONTINUE READING///
 
2003-07-15 02:35:48 PM
Relative sizes from the Starship Dimensions site:



(hope that worked)
 
2003-07-15 02:37:18 PM
Sorry, that should be "replaced by aircraft carriers as the main capital ships..."

Not that you do or should care. But consistency!
 
2003-07-15 02:39:40 PM
Nothing can touch the monolith.

/2001
 
2003-07-15 02:46:34 PM
Please wake me for the 7-of-9 vs. Twi'lek mudwrestling argument to ensue.


Could someone answer the question: is there anyone who could *not* beat Riker in a fistfight? Even Wesley could drop him with a kick in the shins.
 
2003-07-15 02:49:07 PM
I agree with Flammenwerfer,

I must not commit ritual suicide for channeling this sort of geek-dom.
 
2003-07-15 02:57:02 PM
Zack-Morris
What is really FUNNY (or not at all for me), is that being a CS major I have to endure hearing these conversations constantly. As if the body odor and hardcore japanese fanaticism weren't enough, I have to be put through this every day as well.


I'm a CS major too, and what's really weird is that last semester in my java lab, the guys would always argue about who had the coolest car. I (one of about two girls in there) eventually told them that they should shut up about cars and start talking about who had the better computer. One of the more nerdy guys across the room immediately gave his computer's specs. The guys who were talking about the cars however, just looked at me like I was crazy. Thankfully, I don't think their CS majors, I think they just had to take that class for some engineering major.
 
2003-07-15 02:59:24 PM
Pshaw. Done to death. Every reasonable person knows that Star Wars technology beats Star Trek technology in every area.

Have you ever seen a strap-on dildo with variable feedback in the Federation? No.

I rest my case.
 
2003-07-15 03:00:33 PM
Never kissed a girl. Any of them.
 
2003-07-15 03:01:13 PM
Don't lease site of our ultimate goal here - somehow getting it through the moderators head that BBSpot sucks. I sent another satire link in today that was much better, and this gets moved to the main Fark - its link-exchange at its worst.
 
2003-07-15 03:01:19 PM
Don't lose site of our ultimate goal here - somehow getting it through the moderators head that BBSpot sucks. I sent another satire link in today that was much better, and this gets moved to the main Fark - its link-exchange at its worst.
 
2003-07-15 03:02:37 PM
Ditka
 
2003-07-15 03:06:17 PM
DarthBrooks:
Could someone answer the question: is there anyone who could *not* beat Riker in a fistfight? Even Wesley could drop him with a kick in the shins.


What do you mean even Wesley. He was the toughest actual human on that ship! Think about it, after Worf and Data, who got in more fights or kicked more ass than Wesley?

Of course, in the later movies, when Riker spends all his time with Worf, training in the klingon holodeck scenarios, it might be a different story...

/reverts back to normal from long-buried geekdom
 
2003-07-15 03:06:55 PM
If the Last Starfighter used the "Death Blossom" it could take out a Star Destroyer AND the Enterprise!

/Okay, now I'm scaring myself.
 
2003-07-15 03:28:32 PM
Dreadnought

The A-Wing's kamikazee attack was only sucessful because it was truly unexpected. If you notice in Episode IV, Han Solo's seemingly suicidal attack run on the Destroyer caused the admiral to quickly spit out "Shields Up!" as if attacks on the bridge are unoften.

In regards to the attentuation of Force-attacks?
In Episode V, Darth Vader strangled Admiral Piett over a teleconfrenced video hookup. Possibly a conversation taking place galaxies apart.

Oh, and BTW Y-Wings carry photon torpedoes as standard munition asides from their ion cannons.
 
2003-07-15 03:28:57 PM
EatHam- But what if the Star Destroyer was named Dika?
 
2003-07-15 03:37:27 PM
Anybody remember the episode where the Enterprise D was under attck from some guy who had lasers (Yes, the Star Wars ships use lasers, or turbolasers in the case of capital ships). They laughed at him. Like, Picard said, "Lower our shields... in case we want to surrender" and they laughed. So, in conclusion: Star Wars ships probably couldn't pass the shields of the Enterprise. Because a) when things hit the shields of the Enterprise they blow up, but pass through the sheilds of a Star Wars capital ship and b) lasers suck in the Star Trek universe.

Now, if Star Wars ships used phasers, the Executor would dominate the entire federation. That is all.
 
2003-07-15 03:44:56 PM
BritneysSpeculum
Someone, please, assure me that this is in fact just satire because if it's true, it's the saddest thing I have ever read.

That might be the saddest thing I've ever read.
 
2003-07-15 03:48:52 PM
Miket-

Nonono, if you remember from Ep 6, there was a conversation something like this right before the A-Wing, which was out of control, ran into the thing.
"Sir, the sheild is out"
"Intensify forward battery power, I don't want anything coming through"
"Too late!"
(Haven't seen the movie in a while)

Anywho, that is the reason why something could get through. Remember earlier on in the movie, Lando saved the fleet by figuring out that since they were being jammed, the sheild was still up.

"The shields are still up"
"I'm not getting a reading. Are you sure?"
"Yes! All craft, pull up, PULL UP!"

Again, lines are not verbatim.

Also, I want to bring up the point that earlier on in this thread someone was talking about Jedi Battle Meditation... it is pretty cool. A Jedi sits down and meditates, and controls everyone's thoughts, therefore making all of the units much more effective. Sort of like being a dedicated server in real life. This could be very handy if you had a force sensitive person aboard the star ship. In that case, the Jedi would be able to use everyone's mind effectively.

And even if there was no jedi aboard, think of all of the craft that carry photon torpedos. The shields would be destroyed immediately. And, don't forget the awesome power of their lasers which would wreck anyone and anything
 
2003-07-15 03:56:16 PM
This reminds me too much of a "versus" game a couple roommates back in college used to play.

The Terminator vs Johnny 5
Star Destroyer vs Psilon Base ship
Superman vs Captain Marvel
etc.
 
2003-07-15 03:58:29 PM
Is it just me, or when was the last time they sent the Enterprise back into the past. Are we not reminded of the situation of which Star Wars takes place? A long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away?
I'm not much for following the Star Trek shows or movies, so I really don't know how the time traveling takes place for the Enterprisers. If they even do it. Hell, help me out here! Did they or didnt they ever time travel in Star Trek???
 
2003-07-15 03:59:26 PM
*sigh* You guys are making even me sad.
 
2003-07-15 04:02:11 PM
miketbj2:
(Yes, the Star Wars ships use lasers, or turbolasers in the case of capital ships)


That must be why they are visible from all directions and travel at distinctly sub-light speeds, and other behaviours which are impossible for LASERs. In any case the whole laser immunity thing is a ridiculous No-Limits fallacy. The photons of a LASER beam are not fundamentally different from those in light from other sources. If navigational deflectors could truly block all LASERs of any power, the ship itself would be invisible (or rather, there would be a big black spot where it is). Not to mention the times when the E-D was threatened by LASER armed ships, such as:

TNG Season 2, Ep# 32: "Loud as a Whisper"

WORF: I'm reading laser activity in the Solari Solar System!
RIKER: How concentrated is the activity?
WORF: It is localized -- and very intense.
RIKER: So much for the cease-fire.
PICARD: Open hailing frequencies.
WORF: I can establish voice only.
PICARD: This is Captain Jean-Luc Picard, commander of the Federation starship USS Enterprise. If you continue to violate the rules by breaking the cease-fire, I will abort this mission.
FIRST LEADER: You have no jurisdiction here, Picard. Where is Riva?
PICARD: Riva is in charge of the summit. I command the ship that brings him. I will not endanger my ship under any circumstances.


If the E-D were truly immune it could waltz through them with its battle shields down.

The LASER immunity thing comes from the episode "Outrageous Okona", where a ship armed with a LASER was dismissed as not even being able to penetrate the E's nav deflectors. Some of the more rabid Trekkies take this to mean (as mentioned above) that they can therefore block any LASER of any power, even going so far as to say a shuttlecraft can survive a shot from the Death Star's superlaser. A far more reasonably explanation is that this particular LASER was simply too weak.

Now, if Star Wars ships used phasers, the Executor would dominate the entire federation.

No need. Her TLs are already vastly superior to phasers what we've seen from phasers. Though I suppose it is possible that, with her power generation capacity, chain-reacion-based phasers could be superior to direct-energy-transfer turbolasers in some situations.
 
2003-07-15 04:02:16 PM
FHEH! ALL of you are wrong, because both the Enterprise-E and a Super Star Destroyer fighting together could be blown into cosmic dust by a Zentraedi Command Ship. Nyeaaahh! Nyeaaahh! Nyeaaahh!

 
2003-07-15 04:24:03 PM
*** WARNING!!!!**** SUPER GEEK ALERT!!! ***** PLEASE AVERT EYES IF YOU ARE A NON_GEEK!!!!!*****


Okay my take on the whole Enterprise/Star Destroyer debate broken into various points (ignoring other factors like Q or Death Stars):

Size: Star Destroyer wins being roughly three times the size of Enterprise-E, if not more. Though size isn't actually a good thing when in a battle.

Firepower: Star Destroyers have the edge, with tons more point defense and capital weapons. Also a massive fighter compliment.

Speed - Subspace: Enterprise hands down. Almost any Starfleet ship can run circles around a Star Destroyer, which is slow and lumbering when in normal space.

Maneuverability - Subspace: Again it's Enterprise being the winner. Star Destroyers can't "turn on a dime" like Starfleep ships seem to be able to. As a matter of fact Star Destroyers are pretty slow at maneuvering anything.

Speed - Hyperspace: For the sake of argument lets just call faster than light travel hyperspace. I haven't found much data on exactly how fast Star Destroyers can go other than that they are a lot faster than just about anything else in the Star Wars universe. Considering how massive the Empire is and how easily they transverse the galaxy I would have to say Death Stars win here. Maximum safe speed for Enterprise is Warp 9.2, which would still take four days to travel 20 light years. It seems Star Wars ships can do that in at least half the time.

Maneuverability - Hyperspace: Enterprise wins just for the fact they can maneuver their ships while in warp. It seems ships in the Star Wars universe have to plot their course ahead of time and when in hyperspace just sit back and wait until they get there. If there was ever a fight in hyperspace the Enterprise is the only ship that can fire weapons while in warp. Those weapons being photon torpedoes.

Shields - Should be obvious Enterprise shields are significantly superior to Star Destroyer sheilds. If the Star Destroyer's sheild deflectors can be destroyed by weapons from small fighters than a single hit from a phaser would take them out easily. The rest of the Star Destroyer should be easy enough pickings after that.

Tractor Beams: It would be best to assume the Star Destroyer has more powerful tractor beams for no other reason than the fact that Star Destroyers have a massive power supply. Nearly 1/4 of the ship is a massive reactor. Given that, and that alone, the Star Destroyer would have more energy to draw upon. Thus the tractor beams are likely more potent when you max the power output.

Proton torpedoes vs. Photon torpedoes: No contest. Photon torpedoes have a much more powerful payload and can used while in warp. Remember Star Wars shields mostly absorb and disperse energy attacks while Star Trek shields absorb both beam energy and kinetic energy. It would take a lot of proton torpedoes to affect the shields of a ship as large as the enterprise.

Jedi Powers: There has to be a range limit for abilities like influencing someone's mind and choking people otherwise why even bother with light sabers? There are limits to these powers. The only viable theory is visual contact as shown in Empire Strikes Back. Only you would have to factor in that Riker or another officer on the Enterprise would cut off communications the first sign of trouble, thus stopping short the chokage.


Putting this all into consideration if you have Picard, Riker or Data at the helm the Enterprise will likely win for a number of reasons. Darth Vader hasn't shown himself to be a brilliant tactician in this arena. It's all about making best use of your advantages. You have superior mobility as well as the ability to split into two ships (Nacelle section and saucer section) to increase your battle effectiveness. You also have more powerful shelds on the Enterprise to sustaim several hits from those turbolasers while the Star Destroyer's sheild generators can be taken out more easily.Tactically speaking the Enterprise has the upper hand.

Now to cover some other hypotheticals I saw on this thread:

Wookie vs. Klingon: Sure wookies are stronger, but can they fight? It all depends on if the wookie is a trained warrior like the Klingon. So you really can't just say who can win by race alone... you freakin' bigots :-)

Borg Cube vs. Death Star: I have to say Death Star wins. Even though the Borg would have the ability to adapt quickly if the Death Star uses it's superlaser there really wouldn't be much time to adapt since the Borg cube would be obliterated. Even if the superlaser wasn't used first it would take a simgle Borg cube months to assimilate something as big as the Death Star. You can bet the "big gun" would be used well before then.

Millenium Falcon vs. Enterprise: You gotta be kidding me. No way the Falcon has the firepower to do any damage to the Enterprise. It's just too small.

Deathblossom vs. Star Destroyer: I would have to say no. Deathblossom is still a weapon on a fightercraft. Even if deathblossom can get past a Star Destroyer's shields it couldn't penetrate deep enough inside one to do significant damage. Now a Gunstar against 72 Tie Fighters and gunships? Yeah I would say even odds. :-)

Okay boys and girls... you just drained a ton of geek out of me. I need time to recharge with some good old Babylon 5 reruns and and a round of Pod Racer on my game system.

/Geek-boy signing off.
 
2003-07-15 04:29:37 PM
While the Red Dwarf would put up a good fight, it's the Heart Of Gold that can beat them all and make a nice cup of tea, just not at the same time.
 
2003-07-15 04:41:50 PM
Excellent points accompanied by in depth analysis SRFireside.

Dont think anyone could have laid down the facts any better.
 
2003-07-15 04:42:08 PM
Excellent points accompanied by an in depth analysis SRFireside.

Dont think anyone could have laid down the facts any better.
 
2003-07-15 04:43:08 PM
SRFireside, wow, that is really l337
 
2003-07-15 04:43:30 PM
In order for the Enterprise to even have a chance, they would need someone to warn them of any possible traps that the Empire may have set.
 
2003-07-15 04:51:44 PM
omg, people actually argue about this crap? whether one fictional space craft could beat another fictional spacecraft? i could beat them both single-handed. after all, i exist, and they don't.
 
2003-07-15 04:51:52 PM
I hate to get involved in this, but isn't the whole laser question moot?

Two words: Tie Bombers.

Now, ignoring the fact the SDF-1 could kick all KINDS of ass (sorry, couldn't resist, that's how I usually shut down this discussion if I ran across it, but then got the stare from both parties for daring to bring up a CARTOON in this 'serious' discussion. It's happened), I'd have to say this discussion boils down to power plant tech, which I have remotely NO idea what powers a star destroyer. The only reason I know what powers and Star Trek ship is they scream something about it every episode/movie. Hell, if you took discussions of the power source from the original series I don't think Scotty would have any lines left to his credit. Whoever has the most power to keep the shields replenishing would eventually win.

But chiming in, I'd have to think the shield system in both series would be roughly equal in stopping power (what the fark IS a turbo laser? If a laser is a beam of light, how do you make it a turbo version of light!?) and the star destroyer would win hands down on sheer numbers of weaponry alone.

I did some QA work on Klingon Academy, and the game really showed you that shields would get hit HARD by torpedoes. A couple would reduce your shield facing to practically nil, and that's when a good phaser battery would come into play. The dreadnought class ships that had 7+ torpedo banks fired consecutively would just core through whatever you were looking at.

So when you add Tie Bombers with full torpedo tubes, Tie Fighters to draw fire, and the massive battery of turbo lasers, I'm afraid you're looking at one seriously f'ed Enterprise.

But unless the Trek franchise is bought out by Lucas (and wouldn't that make people scream) we'll never see anything more concrete for proof.
 
2003-07-15 04:59:32 PM
I wonder why there weren't any quotes in the articles from women at the conference? Oh wait...
 
2003-07-15 05:02:36 PM
SRFireside

A couple of points:

Size generally means bubkus. It's the mass that counts when speaking of manuverability or acceleration in a vacuum.
The bulwarks of the Enterprise can be comprised of star dust, the most dense of substances in the universe.

The hyperspace speeds are discussed in the Star Wars book series (yeah I actually read a couple). IIRC, there is 3 speed grades of hyperspace which are .33, .50 and .66. Of the 3, the Millenium Falcon can travel .66 while a destroyer can only go .50. That why Han Solo said he could outrun those imperial cruisers all day long.


On the matter of shields, just because Star Destroyers are effected by snubfighter weapons doesnt mean that the Enterprise wouldnt have the same difficulty shielding against it. It might just be saying more about the snubfighters fearsome weapon system.

Why bother with lightsabers when you can chokehold from a distance? Because the people you usually fight with lightsabers could counteract your chokehold with their own force powers. Hence, everyone using lightsabers are generally on a level playing field and must resort to sabers to settle duels.

Dont forget that we are assuming universal constants, perhaps Han Solo will be able to swallow an Enterprise whole when it enters his universe.
 
2003-07-15 05:03:20 PM
2003-07-15 01:46:58 PM dreadnought
/Remember Trekker, not trekkie


There's a difference?
 
2003-07-15 05:04:20 PM
My credits are on the Enterprise. Heck, anything Star Trek would kick major Star Wars backside. Look, the Emporer can't even touch Q...

 
2003-07-15 05:26:40 PM
Where the REAL geeks do their debating...

Click Here For Uber Geekiness
 
2003-07-15 05:27:15 PM
Funnier is this, which comes from a whole page of this kind of stuff.

Scary.
 
2003-07-15 05:30:43 PM
Actually it would be a draw:

The star destroyer would fail because it's run by Star Wars bad guys who cannot hit the broadside of a planet.

Enterprise would spend all it's time trying to make freinds and avoid conflict.
 
2003-07-15 05:30:59 PM
Nothing in either universe could compare to the Improbability Drive of the Heart Of Gold. And Marvin would kick C3PO's metalic ass. Now Marvin vs. Bender would be a good fight.
 
2003-07-15 05:32:11 PM
You guys want to drain me completely eh?

CLem: You still have to factor that TIE Bombers can only carry a small payload compared the size of the Enterprise. Second you forget the mobility of the Enterprise compared to what TIE Bombers are used to hitting: nigh motionless targets. So first a TIE Bomber squad would have to keep up with a ship at least a hundred times larger than it that can fly faster than them at a moment's notice. Then there is the shield factor, which I still conclude are stronger on the Enterprise side.

Also remember torpedoes in the Star Trek universe are MUCH bigger and badder than the ones in Star Wars (please don't make me break out the books to explain why).

Linuxthess: Mass might not mean anything in space, but Star Destroyers are still a lot slower and less maneuverable than Starfleet ships. Base it on methods of how they move their ships, but it's still an advantage with the Enterprise.

I know the Falcon is faster than Star Destroyers, thus my saying faster than ALMOST anything out there. Since you know a bit more about Star Wars hyperspace velocity just how fast are these grades? Be nice to see how they compare since I had to speculate just by what I see in the movies for Star Wars.

The weapons systems on A-Wings, which I believe were the ones that took out the shield generators in ep. 6, are noted for having weak offensive capabilities compared to X-Wings and TIE Interceptors. Besides the Enterprise's phasers have been known to cause devastating damage on much larger ships than an A-Wing so I still say the argument stands that a single phaser hit can take out the shield generator.

My point on choke hold stuff is if that ability was so easilty done at a distance than people like Queen Amidala, Admiral Akbar, and a score of others would have been easily assassinated without any effort. There has to be limits apparently, and either range or in sight seem logical. Plus why didn't Luke choke Jabba? He choked two guards and did a mind freak on Jabba's henchmen before. There is a possibility the ability itself is taxing, even at close range.

I am of course assuming everybody is working in the same universe and the laws of physics that apply in said universe. Anything else would just be a complete blast of speculation on just about all incredible possibilities.
 
2003-07-15 05:38:14 PM
Speed - Hyperspace: For the sake of argument lets just call faster than light travel hyperspace. I haven't found much data on exactly how fast Star Destroyers can go other than that they are a lot faster than just about anything else in the Star Wars universe. Considering how massive the Empire is and how easily they transverse the galaxy I would have to say Death Stars win here. Maximum safe speed for Enterprise is Warp 9.2, which would still take four days to travel 20 light years. It seems Star Wars ships can do that in at least half the time.

You are right about hyperdrive being faster, though you are wrong about just how much faster. Speeds attained with Star Wars hyperdrives are on the order of 1 million c+. Examples:

In the novel Dark Force Rising, the hyperdrive of the Victory-class SD (the ISD's predecessor) was stated as being capable of 127 light years per hour, or 1.1 million c.

In Episode 1, Darth Maul's ship was able to make the trip from Coruscant to Tatooine in under one Tatooine day. Tatooine is in the Outer Rim, and Coruscant the core. We know from Dark Empire that the galaxy is 120,000 light years in diameter. Assuming the trip was 24 hours long, and that there is a mere 30,000 ly between the two planets, the hyperdrive of Maul's ship is capable of ~ 10 million c.

Speeds of 10 million c+ were also attained by the Millenium Falcon in her trip from Tatooine to Alderaan, which was also in the Core, relatively close to Coruscant.

There is no reason for there to be a significant difference between the hyperdrives of the Imperator-class and others. At the lowest speed listed here, it would take an ISD 10 minutes to traverse 20 lightyears.

Shields - Should be obvious Enterprise shields are significantly superior to Star Destroyer sheilds. If the Star Destroyer's sheild deflectors can be destroyed by weapons from small fighters than a single hit from a phaser would take them out easily. The rest of the Star Destroyer should be easy enough pickings after that.

I take it you refer to the destruction of one of the Executor's bridge globes in ROTJ. You ignore the fact that the Executor was under sustained fire from the entire Rebel fleet at the time, a fleet carrying dozens of cannon capable of multi gigaton blasts. Those globes are also not shield generators; the reasoning behind them being such requires they be unprotected by the shield they supposedly project*. They are instead sensor globes, their position and design being more in line with this, plus being labeled as such on the early ISD blue prints.

* The bridge globes are assumed to be shield generators by some because the destruction of one coincided with the loss of bridge shields in ROTJ. If the destruction of the globe caused the shield loss, the shields must have still been up when the globe was destroyed, meaning the globe itself was not protected by them (remember that the ship was under bombardment by an entire fleet at the time, which the shields were withstanding). If the shield was already down, the reasoning behind the globes being shield generators falls down completely. A more plausible explanation is that the fleet bombardment caused the temporary loss of bridge (and only bridge) shielding, and a passing fighter fired on this target of opportunity.


Proton torpedoes vs. Photon torpedoes: No contest. Photon torpedoes have a much more powerful payload and can used while in warp. Remember Star Wars shields mostly absorb and disperse energy attacks while Star Trek shields absorb both beam energy and kinetic energy. It would take a lot of proton torpedoes to affect the shields of a ship as large as the enterprise.

The small kiloton range Protorps seen in Episode 4 are only one type. There also exist large, multi-gigaton anti-ship variants. Imperial ships have two shield systems, ray shields which you mention here, and particle shields meant to stop physical impactors.

You also have more powerful shelds on the Enterprise to sustaim several hits from those turbolasers while the Star Destroyer's sheild generators can be taken out more easily.Tactically speaking the Enterprise has the upper hand.


The fact that SD shields are not so easily defeated crushes your conclusion. The E's shields can be brought down by megaton range weapons, while ISD shields can withstand multi-gigaton and even teraton bombardments. The ISD is also equipped with gigaton range weapons.

Victor: Empire
 
2003-07-15 05:41:08 PM
Bah, a competent cable repairman with an apple laptop could take them both, drunk, and with airsickness.
 
905
2003-07-15 05:46:06 PM
Now what about a Battlestar?

I'm sure Commander Cain & the Pegasus could whoop all their asses...
 
2003-07-15 05:51:13 PM
Clem - In the 1970s, "turbo" was a very cool word, and so was "laser" .. so you have Turbo Lasers in star wars movies. You have to remember that george lucas was like 13 when he made the first film.
 
2003-07-15 05:57:30 PM
Entertaining thread, but here's the definitively objective non-geek answer:

So deep are the chronicles, records, and "facts" of these two fantasy worlds. Any fan can dig up the technology and tactics that prove one ship is superior than the other.

However, each world has one incontrovertible law in common:

"The good guys win. The bad guys lose."

You figure out the result.
 
2003-07-15 06:01:59 PM
Clem: "Now, ignoring the fact the SDF-1 could kick all KINDS of ass (sorry, couldn't resist, that's how I usually shut down this discussion if I ran across it, but then got the stare from both parties for daring to bring up a CARTOON in this 'serious' discussion. It's happened)"

I'd be careful opening that can of worms if I were you: Anime Spaceships vs Sci-Fi Spaceships
 
2003-07-15 06:19:23 PM
Easy. They'd fight, and then both sides would sit down for some nice tranya with Clint Howard.
 
2003-07-15 06:21:05 PM

Craptastic,

LMFAO!!!

 
2003-07-15 06:21:07 PM
Now this is what I call irony: comments on a satiric article making fun of Star Wars/Trek geeks turn into a debate mirroring the subject of the article...
 
2003-07-15 06:23:34 PM
This debate is pretty simple to sum up.

In a sub-light only combat situation, a Soverign class starship does (as said before) have a major manuverability advantage. Taking *only* from technical manuals of both SW and ST, factoring power outputs, hull strength, manuverability, deflector types and strength, realizing that realistically, there is no immunity of weaponry between the two ships, I reach the following conclusion.

1) Any amount of fighters versus a Soverign class starship would die and die fast. Fighters simply don't have the output to damage the fed starship's shields, short of a two to three thousand of them hitting at the same time, which a normal SD can't even house when full. Automatic targeting plus phasers at full equals a load of dead pilots.

2) Power for power, the SD has more, but, it's main power core is far less shielded than a Sov's. For the exception of the automated repair systems in the SD, it would take a sustained phaser blast at full power of only about thirty seconds on the lower-side of the destroyer, targeted at the power core, to penetrate and cause a core breach + meltdown.

3) The SD has less ability to focus it's massive firepower onto the Sov. To fire it's heavier proton torpedos, the SD would have to broadside the Sov, which with such manuverability should be close to impossible. However, the Sov's weapon systems are all controlled by a singular computer. The SD more built to fight against both fighters and large, lumbering ships like it.

Verdict: With the right crew, a smart captian and a really good helmsman, a Soverign class starship could take out a star destroyer. Even with these, the little Sov could have quite a problem, take a lot of damage, and suffer many casualties before disabling the SD. So I call it a near-draw in slight favor of the SD.

Fleet vs. Fleet: The federation fleet would make mincemeat of the huge capital ships of the Empire's fleet, that is, assuming a fleet of Feddies could catch and bar a fleet of Imperials. It would be difficult, but someone would figure out how, of course. Not only would they be vastly outnumbered by ships that are far more manuverable (the Defiants being the ace in the hole for the Fed) All in all, it would be a gigantic bunk for both sides; neither would come out on top without great losses indeed.
I give it a pure draw.

All that aside, who gives a fark? I'm a fan of both, but this is a moot debate, as neither would come out on top.

Now, Empire vs. Klingons... that's another story. Klingons have this one class of starship with nifty little boarding pods. The Klingons wouldn't bother sending in anything other than these ships, as they're manuverable enough to go in, deploy their pods and haul arse, dead or alive. The Klingons being far superior in melee and in-fighting, would rapidly be able to take over the SD, assuming enough had been able to board the ship, making the engagement by attacking ships completely un-needed.

Consult the technical manuals before going to war over something like this. The ships are comparable in strengths and there are weaknesses to be exploited on either side. Books tend to be inconsistant, and so do series shows and even movies at some points, but by each respective production company, the technical manuals are the go-to for true stats on ships from both series.
 
OBB
2003-07-15 06:28:35 PM
According to Timothy Zahn, the reason one can see the lazer fire in the Star Wars series is that the visible bolt of light is actually an ionized blast of tracer fire. The tracer does no damage itself, but while the tracer is on it's way to your ship, the lazer is doin' all sorts of wacky damage to you. Though in a twisting, turning dogfight one must wonder the length of time any one part of a ship might be exposed to a lazer blast.
 
2003-07-15 06:38:37 PM
Smeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeg Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeads

/Red Dwarf kicks all ass
 
2003-07-15 06:41:21 PM
the book movies and series arent accurate?

isnt that where the damn series exists?
 
2003-07-15 06:41:47 PM
Consult the technical manuals before going to war over something like this. The ships are comparable in strengths and there are weaknesses to be exploited on either side. Books tend to be inconsistant, and so do series shows and even movies at some points, but by each respective production company, the technical manuals are the go-to for true stats on ships from both series.

Actually, Paramount has declared the live action movies and tv series to be the sole canon of Star Trek, with everything else being inadmissible. This includes the TMs.

But if you want to use them, that's fine with me, because it won't help you much. Read this: Star Wars vs Star Trek in five minutes

The relevant portion:

Simply grab figures from the official publications. Of all the voluminous Star Wars and Star Trek publications out there, only one for each series gives meaningful specifications in real-world units: Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections (SW2ICS) and the Star Trek Next Generation Technical Manual (TNG TM).

Star Wars: Acclamator troop transport

Light guns: 300 million GW (6 megatons per shot, 24 guns, assume 1 shot every 2 seconds for time-averaged power output rather than peak output)

Heavy guns: 2.4 million megatons (200 gigatons per shot from each turret, 12 turrets)

Sublight acceleration: 3500G

Operational range: 250,000 light-years (before refueling)

Shield heat dissipation: 70 trillion GW peak

Reactor power: 200 trillion GW max

Max hyperspace speed: not stated (however, the ability to travel "halfway across the galaxy" in a matter of hours as demonstrated in ANH, TPM, and AOTC requires speeds in the range of 10 million to 100 million times c).

Star Trek: Enterprise-D

Main phasers: 3.6 GW (5.1 MW per emitter, 200 emitters in the main phaser array, 2 full-sized saucer arrays and 3 smaller roughly half-size arrays on the stardrive section, p.123). Note that phasers appear to have a chain-reaction effect so their raw power output may be deceptively low.

Photon torpedoes: 64 megatons max theoretical (based on 1.5 kg antimatter payload, p.129)

Sublight acceleration: 1000G (design goal, p.75)

Operational range: 2750 light-years (7 years at warp 6 before refueling, p.3)

Shield heat dissipation: 3311 GW peak (473 GW per generator x 7 generators, p.138)

Reactor power: ~4 billion GW at max warp 9.6 (scaled from the warp power chart on p.55 which uses units of joules for power; we assume this is a simple mistake). From the chart, their fuel supply for 7 years of warp 6 cruising would be roughly 2E23 J (enough to run an Acclamator's reactor at full power for just 1 second).

Max warp speed: ~2000c (warp 9.6), sustainable 12 hours for a single sprint of roughly 3 light-years. This appears to have increased to roughly 3000c for newer ships such as the Intrepid-class.


Enjoy.
 
2003-07-15 06:42:43 PM
Does anyone else have fond memories of the game "Tie Fighter" from 1996? I remeber spending literally hundreds of hours with that game. Playing each mission over and over, perfect my attacks each time. God those were some good times.

Lets talk fighters a little here: Shuttlecraft vs. TIE Defender



VS.



Coolness factor: TIE Defender, hands down.

Weapons Factor: TIE Defender, again. The Defender has 3 Medium Laser Cannons, 2 Ion cannons, along with 2 Proton Torpedo launchers (I always prefered advanced concussion missles myself, or heavy rockets when going against VSD's). The shuttlecraft is left smoldering with only 2 Type IV Phaser's.

Manueverability and Speed: TIE Defenders again all the way. Though they are 11 meters in length vs. the 6 meters of the shuttlecraft, they can make a complete 180 on command and unlike the TIE Interceptor they replaced, are hyperspace capable!

So, hands down, a Defender would make mincemeat out of any Shuttlecraft that got in its way.
 
2003-07-15 06:48:00 PM
Tie Defender's kickass. Advanced Concussion missiles, not so much. Great for dogfighting, but not fabu against Corvettes and the ilk.

I think that my low grades that fatefull term can be attributed to Tie Fighter and Quake alone.
 
2003-07-15 06:49:37 PM
This guy should know who would win:

 
2003-07-15 06:51:14 PM
haplo53:

I just saw that episode yesterday. Weird.
 
2003-07-15 06:57:03 PM
Aias: Heh, I discovered this strategy after several run-ins with M/CRV's, having only concussion missles:

First off, 2 missles immediately into the missle launcher. That suckers will fire at you continually until you put it out of commision and make your life a living hell. Next, 1 missle followed by main cannons into both the rear-top and rear-bottom turbolasers of the Corvette. That leaves the rear of the Corvette completely defenseless. Make several strafing runs with main cannons to get shields to 0% then disable with your Ion Cannons. Finish at your leasure (usually to complete secondary and bonus objectives).

Can't...stop...killing...Rebels....
 
2003-07-15 07:00:56 PM
Uhhh... is it just me or did the BBspot's satire just come true in this thread?

And I'd just like to say - someone call Dark Horse comics. If they could do an Alien versus Predator comic, I think they could pull off a Star Trek versus Star Wars series.

/I'd buy that for a dollar.
 
wil [TotalFark]
2003-07-15 07:02:23 PM
These debates are what makes being a geek FUN and COOL.

BTW- if you need to call yourself a "Trekker," and make the distinction between "Trekker" and "Trekkie"

. . .

You're a Trekkie. Here's your sign.
 
2003-07-15 07:05:28 PM
Cpu_thrasher,

Nice Technique...

I do have a softspot for the Missle Boat though... You can take out a frigate with one of those puppies!
 
2003-07-15 07:09:48 PM
Good golly people, this is a total apples to oranges comparison. Remember that Star Wars is a world where lasers are visible when they fire and can somehow cause a planet to explode, a little green guy can lift a multi-ton spacecraft just by thinking about it, and the most annoying whiney jerk I've ever seen gets the hottest girl in the whole Star Wars universe. Star Wars is a space opera, per George Lucas himself; Star Trek is an interpretation of the future grounded in scientific reality (sort of). That alone should tell you that comparisons between the two are going to get pretty silly. It really comes down to interpretation; it's all made up anyway, so go ahead and imagine whichever ship you want to as being victorious.
Personally, I got a thrill out of going to both epesode I and II from the "STAR WARS" opening just because I loved the IV-VI so much as a kid. Epesode I wasn't too bad, Epesode II was a letdown. Star Trek: The Next Generation goes down in my history book as the best television series ever.
 
2003-07-15 07:37:57 PM
It has also been noted that Force powers do not work on beings from outside the galaxy, several times. So, the Force does not even come into play.
 
2003-07-15 07:45:45 PM
ieldanth: Really? Never heard of that. Does the Force work on OBJECTS outside the galaxy? If so, what's the real difference between choking someone with the Force, and manipulating their shirt collar or necktie to do the same thing?
 
2003-07-15 07:51:19 PM
Two references from the movies: Watto and Jabba. Both are extra-galactic and so the force does not work on them, they even say so. In the books it is also noted that force powers do not work on anything extra-galactic, due to the fact that force powers are based on the symbiont, which does not exist outside the galaxy.

/geek
 
2003-07-15 07:51:22 PM
"You are right about hyperdrive being faster, though you are wrong about just how much faster. Speeds attained with Star Wars hyperdrives are on the order of 1 million c+."

Han Solo quote:

"She'll .5 past light speed..."

Other quotes:

"Prepare the jump to lightspeed"
"Prepare the jump to lightspeed on my mark"

Sorry but in order for the quotes to be accurate we need to scale down the Star Wars galaxy to fit them. Seeing as Star Wars ships at best travel at 1.5c, the distances they travel must be much, much shorter, and traveled to in much much smaller ships.

Little mini Star Destroyers pose little to no threat against anything from Star Trek.

Little mini Force chokes pose little threat to beings millions of times larger than them.

Geeks often forgo logic in order to bolster their fanboy arguments.
 
2003-07-15 07:59:07 PM
On a related note, the Heart of Gold would beat both of them easily. It would just have to attain the probability of both ships spontaneously imploding.
 
2003-07-15 08:02:33 PM
BTW- if you need to call yourself a "Trekker," and make the distinction between "Trekker" and "Trekkie"

. . .

You're a Trekkie. Here's your sign.

LMAO, wil

 
2003-07-15 08:03:24 PM
icecycle ... excellent ID4 / Jeff Goldblum reference. Was thinking the same thing.
 
2003-07-15 08:05:39 PM
kasarul:

How convenient that Solo doesn't actually say 1.5 c, eh?

Lightspeed is a word, just like turbolaser. It is not necessarily a measure of capability. .5 is the Falcon's hyperdrive rating. The hyperdrive in Darth Maul's ship is rated 3. Again, we go back to Dark Force Rising: "...from the labored sound of the engines, [Mara Jade] could guess they were pushing uncomfortably far past a Victory Star Destroyer's normal flank speed of Point Four Five. Possibly even as high as Point Five, which would mean they were covering a hundred twenty-seven light-years per hour.
 
2003-07-15 08:13:33 PM
the star destroyer would win hands down!

I aint really a big fan of starwars, and I dont like star trek, so this is mostly based on coolness.

The Star Destroyer is meant for blowing things up. The enterprise isnt. And the enterprise would probably try to play nice and say disable the stardestroyers weapons and then run away, whilst the evil empire would just gib them!
 
2003-07-15 08:19:07 PM
I only have one thing to say:

Vogons.

I win!
 
2003-07-15 08:19:20 PM
I actually got into this argument with a hot girl. Let me tell you, it was surreal. No, I was not dreaming. She was hot, and although I started the conversation to make fun of her, she really took it seriously.

The argument heated up, I asked her for a date, and she slapped me in the face. Ah well, hot trekkie girls...such a rare bird.
 
2003-07-15 08:32:23 PM
Both the Enterprise and a Star Destroyer will do exactly what their writers/etc are doing: crashing and burning...

I'll take the Heart of Gold with a bowl of petunias, please!

Oh, yes. Again!
 
2003-07-15 08:34:48 PM
Star War's galaxy is way smaller.....that is why any attempt to measure the speed is not accurate.

The size of Star War's galaxy is probably the size of galaxy on Orion's Belt in Men in Black. That is why their ships appear to be able to travel much faster.

300 million GW Light guns is totally Bull*hit

according to http://www.physics.fsu.edu/courses/spring98/ast1002/sun/
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/2001/ph162/l4.htmlst1002/sun/


Sun produce energy of 3.9x10^26 W
Earth receives 84 x 10^13 W
One Light guns blast is 3x10^13 W

You can see how unrealistic Star War is. One light guns blast can have that much damage, yet ships aren't affected by it.
 
2003-07-15 08:38:19 PM
"kasarul:

How convenient that Solo doesn't actually say 1.5 c, eh?"

So "Light speed" doesn't mean light speed, it means something else...

Well I guess it fits in with the retarded Star Wars Universe where beings like Watto can fly along with the bug people (great attention to physics there), massive space slugs and bats inhabit asteroids and the Empire uses giant wind up toys to pitch it's battles.

Fanboys amaze me.
 
2003-07-15 08:38:19 PM
Whether or not the force works on the Trekkies is not an issue.

The Battle Meditiation, man! Only affects your own men.

Oh, and BTW, Sun Crusher is indestructable. They had to put it in the middle of a sun, because it is impossible to destroy.

and then Exar Kun took it, bwa haha
 
2003-07-15 08:38:46 PM
HELLO! The Star Destroyer uses LASERS! And the sheilds on the Enterprise won't even be effected by those! Actually the hull would be able to handle it without the shields... it's mentioned several times. The Enterprise (even the old one) never raises its shield when it comes up against the old school designs using laser weaponry.

No, it couldn't even scratch the Enterprise.
 
2003-07-15 08:41:13 PM
oh *blushes* someone already made my point.
 
2003-07-15 08:42:59 PM
Kirk could take them all....
 
2003-07-15 08:50:33 PM
Bosephus
Dam "a hot trekkie girl"
Its like those words dont belong together in a sentence.
Best I can figure the chances of finding one of them and getting a date with them can best be described with the following equation.

Let A = Chances
Let B tend towards infinity

A equals 1 divided by B


In any case i think that, Roger_the_Shrubber, ststement that "the good guys win. The bad guys lose." Prety much eneded the debate.

And ofcourse, me being pro Enterprise, I'd like to see someone demostrate how the Empire is the good guys.
 
2003-07-15 08:51:11 PM
Moe- That girl is thinking

"Making up for something, Kirk?"

Or, at least that is what I am thinking.

STAR WARS 4EV4R
 
2003-07-15 08:52:03 PM
JoeBlack:

The size of Star War's galaxy is probably the size of galaxy on Orion's Belt in Men in Black. That is why their ships appear to be able to travel much faster.


Prove it.

Sun produce energy of 3.9x10^26 W
Earth receives 84 x 10^13 W
One Light guns blast is 3x10^13 W


How nice, you don't know what watts are. Watts are joules per second. One joule delivered in one second is one watt. One joule delivered in two seconds is .5 watts. One joule delivered in one trillionth of a second is one terawatt. You also didn't pay attention very well, if you had you would know that the energy of each shot is 6 megatons.
 
2003-07-15 08:58:03 PM
I'll never forgive Lucas for explaining the Force. Idiot.
 
2003-07-15 09:01:44 PM
kasarul:

So "Light speed" doesn't mean light speed, it means something else...


I suppose whatever automobile you may happen to own is powered by several dozen tiny horses?

randomgal:
oh *blushes* someone already made my point.


Made and refuted.

dreadnought:

And ofcourse, me being pro Enterprise, I'd like to see someone demostrate how the Empire is the good guys.


The Empire brought a powerful, centralized government and military to the galaxy. Had it not fallen, the Yuuzhan Vong invasion would have been crushed swiftly and mercilessly. As things stand, galactic civilization is on the brink. As planets were being wiped clean and assimilated into the Yuuzhan Vong, the New Republic sat on its ass, denying their very existance. The great Coruscant itself has fallen to them. Had the Empire not been reduced to a mere shadow of its former self and replaced by the bumbling beauracracy of the New Republic, the Galaxy would still be strong.
 
2003-07-15 09:06:21 PM
Yeah, but the Enterprise F will get revenge!
 
2003-07-15 09:14:33 PM
Super Star Destroyer 'Executor' - 17.6KM
 
2003-07-15 09:16:27 PM
Scene: Enterprise E and Superstardestroyer Going At It.

Enter: Royal Manticorian Navy, oh say about 200 Superdreadnoughts...

Fleet Admiral Duchess Honor Harrington: Roll Pods & Fire At Will!

Vader & Picard: Oh ****! (As about a bizillion missiles home in on them!)

Nuff said.
 
2003-07-15 09:27:51 PM
I've got your last word right here:

 
2003-07-15 09:33:54 PM
I'm amazed no one has brought up the WWWF grudgematches, which have covered many of these topics thoroughly.

I think a much more interesting question is who wins between red shirts and stormtroopers?
 
2003-07-15 09:35:41 PM
Hmmm... Apparently "HTML enabled" means "For god's sakes, please don't make these into links!"

http://www.grudge-match.com/History/index.html

http://www.grudge-match.com/History/ensign-stormtrooper.shtml
 
2003-07-15 09:41:57 PM
Ok, 6 megatons of energy concentrated on an area no more than a meter wide yields 25,104,000,000,000,000 J/m^2. No armor possible would even slow that down. Also shield heat disipation: 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Watts, or 7.00 * 10^25 Watts. As stated above, the Sun produces 3.90*10^26 Watts. This states that the ship's shields can dissipate heat equivalent to 1/5 the total output of the sun. IOW, given its size being much smaller than the earth and microscopic compared to the sun, and therefore never being able to recieve all of the sun's total output, but just a segment equal to its size, they are saying that a star destroyer with its shields up can comfortably sit on the surface of the sun.
 
2003-07-15 09:46:53 PM
There is another factor. What if the special technology employed by both Star Wars and Star Trek ships that lets sounds travel through vacuums has another effect on the weapons? We can't comprehend their technology. Another Point: What if the events in the Star Wars universe were so long ago and so far away that a Star destroyer could fire a beam and it could miraculously not hit anything and be absorbed on its long journey to the alpha quadrant and then it hits the Enterprise?

/Star Wars and Star Trek geek who thinks that Star Wars is better because all its books intertwine and it doesn't teach sappy moral lessons.
 
2003-07-15 09:49:39 PM
Come on! Its a star-destroyer! It can destroye stars for christ sake! Unless they had Kirk on ofcourse... Puhaa... the carnage he would make!
 
2003-07-15 09:51:13 PM
What, a chime in from Wil but no answer? You're the resident expert man?!?! *chuckle*

Seriously though, the shows/movies were fun to watch. Just never got much into them beyond that. I still like catching them every once in a while.

I worry about anyone who dresses up like a character in a movie or tv show who doesn't get paid for it. And paid well.
 
2003-07-15 10:06:49 PM
Aias: I was so farking pissed when they took the Missle Boat and Defender out of X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter. Paid damn good money for that game and didn't even get 2 of my favorite Imperial fighters. Hell, you had to pay for the expansion pack just to get the B-Wing. GRRR at LucasArts!
 
OBB
2003-07-15 10:07:50 PM
tibis - Star Destroyers don't destroy stars, much in the same way Starships don't ship stars.
 
OBB
2003-07-15 10:09:32 PM
I was a big fan of Tie Fighter, and I also really liked X-Wing Alliance, possibly because I got to fly through the Death Star II
 
2003-07-15 10:31:27 PM
Star Destroyers don't destroy stars, much in the same way Starships don't ship stars.

BWAHAHHAHHAHAHHAH

OBB: X-Wing Alliance definately had its share of different ships to fly, by far the most far-reaching variety you could jump into and blast the hell out of someone online with.
 
2003-07-15 10:32:53 PM
20 bucks says the 38 year old guy lives at home with his Mom and Dad and still is a virgin.........
 
2003-07-15 10:56:15 PM
Nano Nano.

I think Mork from Ork would kick all of their butts, simply because they would see him and just start tearing up the room in laughter.

Um... wasn't Star Wars set "long long ago" and "Star Trek" in the year 2400 or so? Where's Buck Rogers when you really need him.
 
2003-07-15 11:32:52 PM
20 bucks says aGodinmyownworld doesn't know what the hell satire means.
 
2003-07-15 11:34:07 PM
 
2003-07-15 11:36:20 PM
Wesley could win in any fight cuz he went and saw a dead body by the railroad tracks. And to end all geek fights, or start a new one.... UNICRON would stomp a deathstar, borg cube, enterprise, stardestroyer, all of them. Unless Lt. Barkley or Lando or some other tool opened up the matrix, that would make it tie.
 
2003-07-16 12:17:36 AM
The satire in the article has come true in this thread. You are all a bunch of Fukin losers.
 
2003-07-16 12:28:59 AM
Yep, video games, music, movies, Internet none of these causes a person to seek out violence as much as them being tormented by another person. Unfortunately, its so easy to blame groups behind these previously mentioned forms of media that most people dont bother to look at the fact that maybe, some or most of the victims had it coming to them. That they got exactly what they deserved.
 
2003-07-16 12:33:12 AM
Dam, wrong post.
Sorry.
Ignore my last post, perhaps if he mod could delete it or something.

/Never gonna be viewing or make comments on fark with multiple windows opened.
 
2003-07-16 12:55:57 AM
A single Orbital frame could take 'em both.


/uber-geek flame bait.
 
2003-07-16 12:58:51 AM
From a post a long long time ago, in a galaxy far far way, on a server that was ohh so slow slow slow...

04-25-03 03:44:08 PM Yooyooyoo
FARK FARK FARK. Where are all the Star Trek fans? HELLO???? Jeri Ryan, 7 of 9 so much hotter than tech tv lady. Although her brain (Morgans) is quite appealing.

I'd have to go with 7 of 9. Getting horizontal with a Borg would be way cool, I wonder what those nanoprobes would do... hmmm.....

Ohh and about the star wars vs star trek debate, there is none. Totally different worlds. Now if you ask the question who would win in a fight? Star Trek hands down.

Star Wars has Laser level weapons (like the "Turbo Lasers" on the death star). Star Trek uses weapons like anti-matter encased in torpedos. The Death Star exploded and it was a big boom. A couple of Star Trek ships exploded and they ripped the fabric of space time. Different power levels? I think so, Star Trek wins.

Another indicator of technology level would be speed of space craft. Going to "light speed" in Star Wars is a major ordeal. Remember the Millenium Falcon having to go through all those calculations in order to "jump to light speed" so as to avoid going through Stars or planets? In Star Trek they just jump to warp anytime they want, no hesitation.
Warp speed in Star Trek is so much faster than going the speed of light as they do in Star Wars. Exponentially faster. Again, Star Trek whips Star Wars ASS technologically.

The Death Star had the ability to destroy a planet. Big Deal. In Star Trek they can collapse stars. A couple Star Trek Quantumn torpedos can destroy entire planets.

Heck Star Trek ships (metaphasic shielding) can even go into the middle of Stars and hang out there, unlike Star Wars ships.

But the question of who could whip whos ass can conclusively be answered by this one fight.

R2D2+C3P0 (Star Wars) vs. Data (Star Trek)

No one can dispute that Data would whoop their asses in EVERY conceivable scenario.

My work here is done.
 
wil [TotalFark]
2003-07-16 01:02:32 AM
Ah well, hot trekkie girls...such a rare bird.

Uhh . . . that's hot trekkie girl. I've met her. Her name is Swan, and she's a pr0nstar.

I'm serious.
 
2003-07-16 01:34:23 AM
The Liberator would take them both out. Avon: "Zen, Clear neutron blasters for firing."
 
2003-07-16 01:44:21 AM
wil

Her name is Swan, and she's a pr0nstar

Is this her?

 
2003-07-16 01:50:36 AM
R2D2 would extract some sort of multitool from within itself and give data the shiv.

More to the point, one of my pals is dating a former Land's End model who, I discovered, used to play Dungeons & Dracons back in the 2nd edition days. She knew about THAC0. I seriously entertained thoughts of killing my friend and wearing his skin like a suit.
 
2003-07-16 02:32:32 AM
I like Star Trek a lot, but have always been partial to Star Wars. That said, The Star Wars movies focus very little on technical details. It's fantasy, not sci-fi. Whereas in Star Trek there are sometimes whole episodes that rely on the existence of some pseudo-scientific concept. There are those in the Star Wars "expanded universe" that have tried to focus on the technology in Star Wars, but I feel it is unecessary and not part of the spirit of the world. I'm right-brained and don't care about that stuff like the left-brained Trekkies/Trekkers do. The Star Wars geek in me imagines a Star Destroyer creaming the Enterprise, but it is not because of some hypothetical technical mumbo-jumbo. I'll be honest, it's just because I like it better. Isn't that all that really matters anyhow?
 
2003-07-16 02:44:26 AM
Hmmm.. this may be a bit dated - I have much of this taking up space in my head...

Enterprise wins. Reason = shields in Star Trek are not static, they modulate at varying frequencies (anyone who has read/seen a Borg episode knows). The lasers used in Star Wars, as far as I know, emit at a constant frequency (OK I've never seen a pulse laser in Star Wars, but lets say they do have them - they would still emit at a constant frequency, albiet in burst).

The shields in Star Trek also modulate along the surface of the ship randomly (depending on what pattern you use). When a static laser enounters a shield that changes modulation, it can only disrupt one frequency at a time (possibly why old style Klingon disruptors now officially suck ass), so minimal damage, if any, is done. You can see that all kinds of neat shield tricks have evolved since the introduction of the Borg. I like the Borg a lot. They keep things moving along :)

And as this is the Empires chief trick, I don't forsee them attempting to take on a constellation class heavy cruiser anytime soon. It would be suicide.

As for Jedi Mind Tricks, the original mind trick was invented by the Vulcans. Something explained in books, never deployed in movies/series - Vulcans can do a lot more than they let on. For the sake of peace, they hold back much. Reality = Vulcans much more dangerous than Jedi. Kathleen Sky explains this well.
 
2003-07-16 03:08:32 AM
read some comics and you will see Star Destroyer Eclipse model > all including deathstar ( laser on tip that = 1/3 death star laser
 
2003-07-16 06:29:52 AM
All right, that's enough. Everybody out of the basement! C'mon! Get moving! That means all of you ... Clem, SRFireside, XaLEv, mtman900, Linuxthess, brentmisado ... yeah, I see you hiding behind the boiler, Brent ... kasarul, faethe, ieldanth ... c'mon, I want all of you outside! Right now! It's time that you all got some fresh air and sunshine. Here's some gloves and a bat and a ball. Go get some exercise. Have some healthy fun for a change. Get out of this moldy basement. It'll do you all some good.

C'mon, move it! Don't make me come down there!
 
2003-07-16 07:36:52 AM
?????

Excuse me? You lot are bashing "geeks", "nerds" and "dorks" when a lot of you spend far too much time on a computer reading Fark?

Sorry, by being a fanboy of ANY website you are automatically classed as a geek or a dork. Have a nice day.

Oh, and methinks Q could whup Darth Vader anytime.
 
2003-07-16 09:48:15 AM
"Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not an actor!
 
2003-07-16 10:29:33 AM
Good guys win and bad guys lose... that's my flavor argument as well! But just for the sake of "did I miss something in the thread?" argument...
'Jedi' powers are actually illustrated in "The Return of the Jedi" as covering a HUGE range. The Emperor was in communication and some form of control with coordinating his commanders right up until Darth chucked him into the firey abyss (hmmm... ironic eh?). After the Emperor was 'destroyed' his military visibly started to break down and lose the ability to fight properly. So those Anti-Jedi mind trick arguments really shouldn't be based on range to or sight of target.
It would also seem to me that the Betazoid empath on the Enterprise's bridge would easilly be able to tell that this mental manipulation is in 'force' over hundreds or thousands of individuals from one great and evil source. Thus sparking the bleeding heart of Picard into realizing that destroying a whole vast crew, of normal citizens of the Empire who are only dong thier job as dictated by an evil mastermind with absolute tyranical control, would be immoral.
Finally it would all come down to an away mission where the various plans would indicate that their only chance is to send a very small and elite crew over to the source of the evil presence and stop it, thus freeing the Empire of it's evil root. Now this is the part that matters because we have seen in every Star Trek episode that it mattered in transporting close enough to the enemy to get the job done is no problem. They will figure SOMETHING out to get it done. Also we have seen in every Star Wars episode that it is exactly these kinds of personal encounters with the big-baddies that are the only successful way to fight the Empire on any worthwhile scale. That is a formula for success that the Enterprise crew certainly will have going for them since they are all very experienced at this kind of thing and Luke was just a farm-boy with good genes... and a "moisture farmer" at that!
Seems to me though that in the background of the action you would have the Enterprise flying around doing tricks and tearing up the Star Destroyer like so much Borg Cube until the Emperor pulled a trick that we know works in Star Trek also... mentally taking control of the Enterprise. That always happens you know. Those gel-pack memory living cell computer things are bound to have Mitochlorians in them (the Force bugs) and thus subject to the Emperor's wrath. It'd be a classic struggle on the Enterprise of surperior technology being slowly suffocated to death while the villain gloats about it while Picard and Data stroll up with phasers and turn the Emperor into pudding after failing to reason with him. Somehow... you know it... we all know it... well any of us Geeks know it that is! =)
By the way, I must remind you if I can that this debate is supposed to be about the Enterprise and the Star Destroyer but nothing in either of the movies or TV shows featuring those ships is EVER really about the gadgets or technology. It's about the people and the struggles and the hope... so sorry foks but the good guys have to win!
 
2003-07-16 10:41:37 AM
**rolling on the basement floor**

/Thanks Kong!
 
2003-07-16 10:54:24 AM
I'll take the Nadesico or possibly the Durandal.
 
2003-07-16 10:56:33 AM
What about the Mon Cal cruisers? Since it's come down to a "good guys" win, what about good vs. good? I think the Mon Cal's would stand a good chance against the Enterprise, heck, it'd probably win, seeing as they can take down Star Destroyers. Beside, if it was Rebels vs. Federation, the rebels would just send Kyle Katarn in to spy and sabotae stuff and it would be all over. I mean, he is the guy that stole the orginial death star plans, the Federation would be nothing. Especially since he's gone all Jedi now.
 
2003-07-16 10:56:35 AM
yooyooyoo:

Star Wars has Laser level weapons (like the "Turbo Lasers" on the death star). Star Trek uses weapons like anti-matter encased in torpedos. The Death Star exploded and it was a big boom. A couple of Star Trek ships exploded and they ripped the fabric of space time. Different power levels? I think so, Star Trek wins.


And I suppose a modern M-16A2 is superior to a medieval catapult, eh? I mean, the M-16 is a highly sophisticated piece of machinery, and the catapult is just a big rock thrower. The level of technology is irrelevant, what matters is the quantifiable power of that technology. Star Wars laser weapons (which are not LASERs, as you have conveniently ignored) have demonstrated and are stated to have vastly higher power than Trek antimatter weapons. So a couple of ships ripped space time. Great. Now quantify the energy required to do that.


Another indicator of technology level would be speed of space craft. Going to "light speed" in Star Wars is a major ordeal. Remember the Millenium Falcon having to go through all those calculations in order to "jump to light speed" so as to avoid going through Stars or planets? In Star Trek they just jump to warp anytime they want, no hesitation.
Warp speed in Star Trek is so much faster than going the speed of light as they do in Star Wars. Exponentially faster. Again, Star Trek whips Star Wars ASS technologically.


SW ships have to do all those calculations because they are going so fast they will not have much time to correct course if something unexpected pops up. Trek ships can jump whenever they want because they don't go fast enough to ram into somehting before anyone can react. I should also mention that the navigational calculations are only required for long journeys, small jumps of a couple of lightyears at most are quite simple. Exponentially faster you say? Explain why it would have taken Voyager, one of the fastest Fed ships, 70 years to cross the galaxy, when SW ships can cross half of their -larger- galaxy in less than a day?

The Death Star had the ability to destroy a planet. Big Deal. In Star Trek they can collapse stars.

SW can do that too. It's called the Sun Crusher, a small fighter-sized craft which can be controlled by one person.

A couple Star Trek Quantumn torpedos can destroy entire planets.

Prove it.

Heck Star Trek ships (metaphasic shielding) can even go into the middle of Stars and hang out there, unlike Star Wars ships.

Lie. Never have they attempted to actually enter a star. They have always stayed in the corona, the star's atmposphere.

TNG Season 6, Ep# 148: "Suspicions"

REYGA: You've all seen my experimental data. The metaphasic shield has been proven.
T'PAN: Forgive my skepticism, Doctor, but your claims are somewhat extravagant. Protect a shuttle within a star's corona? Not even your own government believes it can be done.

TNG Season 6, Ep# 148: "Suspicions"

COMPUTER: Warning. Approaching stellar photosphere. Metaphasic shield at seventy-one percent ...
(Dr. Crusher and Jo'Bril scuffle for the phaser)
COMPUTER: ... Metaphasic shield at fifty-nine percent ...
(Dr. Crusher knocks Jo'Bril down and grabs the phaser)
COMPUTER: Metaphasic shield at thirty-four percent ...


Notice here that their shields are taking damage quite fast as they approach the star's surface.

TNG Season 7, Ep# 153: "Descent Part 2"

BEVERLY: If we had metaphasic shielding, we could enter the sun's corona and the Borg ship wouldn't be able to follow.


Star Destroyers, on the other hand, can sit indefinitely on a star's surface, not just in the corona.

faethe:

Enterprise wins. Reason = shields in Star Trek are not static, they modulate at varying frequencies (anyone who has read/seen a Borg episode knows). The lasers used in Star Wars, as far as I know, emit at a constant frequency (OK I've never seen a pulse laser in Star Wars, but lets say they do have them - they would still emit at a constant frequency, albiet in burst).


It amuses me how much Trekkies tout this whole frequency thing as an advantage. Tell me, would you consider a bullet proof vest which can block one caliber of bullet effortlessly, but allow another caliber to pass unimpeded, to be a quality defense? In order to have a frequency, the shields must oscillate, and that means it's constantly turning on and off. Star Wars shields, on the other hand, have no such weakness. They block what comes at them, regardless of its phase, frequency or anything else of that nature. All that matters is power and energy.

The whole phase/frequency thing is irrelevant anyway, because SW weapons are very powerful, and that energy must go somewhere. You can play all the neat little tricks you want, but when you get hit with more energy than you can handle, you are dead.
 
2003-07-16 11:07:06 AM
XaLEv - I disagree with you on the fact that the emperor would not have seen the vong as a treat just like he didn't see the rebels as one. The only one who would have been able to put up a better fight would have been Thrawn, mainly because he knew they were comming. And even then he didn't expect total victory. If Luke and Mara hadn't killed the clone Thrawn it might have been adverted.

And in response the the Eclipes model of SD..

Name/Model#
Eclipse-class Super Star Destroyer
Designer/Manufacturer
Kuat Drive Yards
Combat Designation
Capital Starship
Length
17500 meters
Weapons
550 Laser Cannons
500 Turbolaser Batteries
75 Ion Cannons
100 Tractor Beam Projectors
10 Gravity-well Projectors
1 Axial Superlaser



Designed alongside the Executor-class, but much more massive and powerful, there were only two Eclipse-class Star Destroyers ever produced, the Eclipse and Eclipse II. Both served the Emperor during his reincarnation, and both were destroyed with the Emperor. No more have been constructed.

The first Eclipse-class Star Destroyer, the Eclipse was used as the flagship for the reborn Emperor Palpatine. It was destroyed when the Force storm Palpatine sent to destroy Luke Skywalker turned on Palaptine himself. The storm consumed Palpatine and eradicated the Eclipse.

The Eclipse II was built by the second reincarnation of Emperor Palpatine, following the loss of his first ship, the Eclipse. Palpatine took the Eclipse II to Onderon, in an attempt to obtain the body of Anakin Solo for clones. A New Republic assault team, led by Chewbacca and Kam Solusar, infiltrated the ship and reprogrammed its navigation systems. They fled the ship as it jumped into hyperspace, bound for Byss. When it emerged from hyperspace, the Eclipse II crashed into the new Galaxy Gun, which began to fires its projectiles in its death throes. One projectile was launched successfully, and it ploughed into the planet Byss, destroying it and all of the Imperial ships in orbit around it, including the Eclipse II. The New Republic assault team barely escaped.
 
2003-07-16 11:19:59 AM
star destroyers sheild generators are on the outside and can be blown the up, trek wins
 
2003-07-16 11:48:44 AM
O god somebody help me...I'm dorking out!
 
2003-07-16 01:13:30 PM
Actually this whole Star Wars/Star Trek controversy will be resolved in an upcoming movie. Check out the banner at the top of this issue of ENN (Electronic News Network) - be sure to click "restart with sound" on the banner itself. ;)

http://tinyurl.com/h4i6
 
2003-07-16 01:44:41 PM
Queen's Guy, I find it highly unlikely (read: impossible) that such a movie will ever be made. In fact that whole website you linked to looks bogus.
 
2003-07-16 01:53:55 PM
2003-07-15 08:58:03 PM RubensHakkamacher
I'll never forgive Lucas for explaining the Force. Idiot.

I completely agree. He took away something that was magical that I remember from my childhood and replaced it with "mitichlorians." The Force was supposed to be mystical, wonderous, and if you had a pure heart and believed, you could master The Force too (sounds a little like pixie dust, from Peter Pan, I know). Lucas changed it to a chemical imbalance, like having too much magnesium in your diet. Thanks a lot George.
 
2003-07-16 02:34:11 PM
-i think it would depend on who the captain of each ship was.

based on "scientific" claims...the federation would kick the empires ass.

no transporters for the empire.

they have never been used to their fullest potential.
 
2003-07-16 03:50:26 PM
"I completely agree. He took away something that was magical that I remember from my childhood and replaced it with "mitichlorians." The Force was supposed to be mystical, wonderous, and if you had a pure heart and believed, you could master The Force too (sounds a little like pixie dust, from Peter Pan, I know). Lucas changed it to a chemical imbalance, like having too much magnesium in your diet. Thanks a lot George."

He didn't change anything about the Force at all. People have this widespread misconception that midi-chlorians ARE the Force or that they create it. We already know that this isn't true because the Force was already explained in ANH. "it is an energy field created by all living things, it surrounds us, penetrates us, binds the galaxy together". And we also know from the original movies that not everybody could use or was in tune to the Force. Wherever you got the notion that having a pure heart and believing was all it took is beyond me. Midi-chlorians are simply mediums between the Force and those who weild it. What other reason would there be for genetic predisposition to Force sensitivity? Has to be something in the blood, right? I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion or say that you should like it. Just don't cry foul that it was 'changed' when it never was.
 
2003-07-16 03:59:21 PM
Ok, my two cents:

Why are Jedi powers being considered in this arguement? Are Jedi powers connected to a Star Destroyer? Assuming that they are not, than what you are left with are the two, physical, ships.

The same goes for any extraordinary benefits/powers/etc. from outside sources. Any argument saying that a SD would win because it has Darth Vader on it is completely baseless for the sake of the pure argument.

My two cents... personally, I think the Enterprise would do circles around a Star Destroyer, but that's just my own view.
 
2003-07-16 04:50:57 PM
azazyel: The Emperor doesn't need to see them as a threat. All that is required is that the Vong show up and start stepping on the Empire's toes. Once that happens, someone will come down on them, probably an admiral or Moff out to make a name. If they fail, the Vong will be seen as a threat and will be stepped on. By the time of ROTJ, the Empire already had 25000 ISDs alone, not to mention the other millions of ships required to maintain Imperial power throughout the galaxy. With their industrial capacity, they would have many thousands more ISDs as well as dozens of Executors, Eclipses and Sovereigns by the time the Vong showed up, and maybe even multiple Death Stars and Galaxy Guns. Then there is the theory that Palpatine did forsee the Vong invasion, but I don't know how valid that is.

CoRDS

star destroyers sheild generators are on the outside and can be blown the up, trek wins

Bauer

-i think it would depend on who the captain of each ship was.

based on "scientific" claims...the federation would kick the empires ass.

no transporters for the empire.

they have never been used to their fullest potential.


Jebus, it's like you guys aren't even trying. CoRDS, already refuted. Bauer, present these "scientific claims" and show how they support you. Tell us why lacking transporters is a weakness. (also, transporter technology does exist but isn't used, see Magwit's Magic Hoops)
 
2003-07-16 07:33:39 PM
Ok, I've stopped laughing long enough to comment. Seeing as <gamer geek> I was a Origins a few weeks ago </gamer geek>, the only think I can think of right now is that making a Star Trek vs. Star Wars miniatures game has got to rake in some long green.

Why argue about it when you can actually fight it! It'll make millions, judging by this thread alone.
 
2003-07-16 07:40:53 PM
Wow, I didn't think people would be sticking up for Star Trek so much. This seems so obvious to me.

Star Destroyer without a contest. It's orders of magnitude more powerful. What seems to confuse people is that Star Destroyers are shown fighting off Mon Calamari cruisers and bomber type fighters (B-Wing and Y-Wing) craft in the movies and are destroyed. This seems to give them a sense of fragility. However, Mon Cal cruisers are extremely powerful ships, as are B and Y-Wing fighters.

The fighters rely on their small sizes to elude the Turbolasers of and ISD. However a Turbolaser hit to either of those fighters, shields or not, would simply vaporize the craft (as Porkins found out). The analogy would be a WWII era battleship trying to shoot down fighters with their 16" guns. True, if the shell hit the plane, it'd be in trouble, but the odds are against it. The level of shielding for the fighters are more appropriate to the close defense weapons that they would face going against an ISD. Because the fighters can concentrate on indefensible or critical areas of the ship, an ISD is still vulnerable to a heavy fighter assault. This isn't as strange as it seems if you consider the WWII analogy; many battleships fell pray to attack aircraft. ISDs therefore rely on their fighter complement to protect them from fighter assaults. The episodes IV-VI show the empire at a somewhat awkward moment, where the introduction of the X-Wing rendered their compliment of TIE fighters largely innefective. A small compliment of X-Wings could take on and neutralize a considerably larger continget of TIEs leaving their escorting ship vulnerable to Y-Wing (and later B-Wing) assaults.

ISDs are shown being brought down rarely in the film. The vast majority shown destroyed occured during the battle of Endor. While the movie shows the ships seemingly destroyed quite simply, one must consider that the ISDs were under heavy Turbolaser bombardment before being finally destroyed. The Super Star Destroyer shown destroyed had the entire firepower of the rebel fleet focused on it for a few minutes before losing control.

Regardless, the weaponry and shielding in the Star Wars universe are generally measured in orders of magnitude greater levels that in the Star Trek Universe. I contend that a B-Wing stands a good chance at taking down the Enterprise. Certainly a squadron of B-Wings. Low power phaser blasts from the Enterprise, the kind that would be required to shoot quickly enough to track a B-Wing, would likely be on a scale that the B-Wing shielding could handle. A high power blast (think 16" guns) coudln't be fired quickly enough to be much of a threat to the Enterprise. The punch that a B-Wing packs, and the fact that its weaponry genrate power on the same order of magnitude of the Enterprise would probably make it a threat.

So take that, you communist pot-smoking Trekkies. I'll see you Enterprise D and raise you a B-Wing.
 
2003-07-16 08:01:04 PM
In support of Kaeishiwaza, I present this, taken from the Episode 2 Incredible Cross Sections:

Data File
Manufacturer: Kuat Systems Engineering, subsidiary of Kuat Drive Yards (fighter); TransGalMeg Industries Inc. (hyperdrive ring)
Make: Delta-7 /Aethersprite/ light interceptor; Syliure-31 long-range hyperdrive module
Dimensions: length 8m; width 3.92m; depth 1.44m
Max. speed (in standard atmosphere): 12,000 kph
Max. acceleration (linear, in open space): 5,000G
Hyperdrive: Class 1.0 (effective range 150,000 light-years)
Armament: 2 dual laser cannons (1 kiloton per shot max.)

Data File
Manufacturer: Kuat Systems Engineering
Make: Firespray-class patrol and attack ship
Dimensions: length 21.5m; wingspan 21.3m; depth (excluding guns) 7.8m
Max. speed (in standard atmosphere): 1,000 kph
Max acceleration (linear, in open space): 2500G
Hyperdrive: class 1.0
Armament: 2 blaster cannons (600 gigaloues per shot); 2 laser cannons (8e12 joules per shot); missile launcher (8e17 joules per shot); minelayer (5e19 joules per shot); other unknown weapons

Data File
Manufacturer: Huppla Pasa Tisc Shipwrights Collective
Make: /Nantex/-class territorial defence starfighter
Dimensions (excluding cockpit bubble): length 9.8m; width 1.9m; depth 2.2m
Max. speed (in standard atmosphere): 20,000 kph
Max. acceleration (linear, in open space): 4,500G
Armamnet: 1 laser-cannon turret (1e13 joules per shot)


This shows the level of firepower carried by Star Wars fightercraft.
 
2003-07-16 10:01:31 PM
Who cares what kind of space junk you're piloting? The Hulk could kick everyone's ass, because the angrier Hulk gets, the stronger he gets. And like most big, over-muscled guys, sci-fi fanatics totally piss him the hell off.
 
2003-07-16 11:06:34 PM
Kong

I've been outside now most of the day and hace taken my allergy meds. May I go back to the basement again :)

faethe:

Enterprise wins. Reason = shields in Star Trek are not static, they modulate at varying frequencies (anyone who has read/seen a Borg episode knows). The lasers used in Star Wars, as far as I know, emit at a constant frequency (OK I've never seen a pulse laser in Star Wars, but lets say they do have them - they would still emit at a constant frequency, albiet in burst).


It amuses me how much Trekkies tout this whole frequency thing as an advantage. Tell me, would you consider a bullet proof vest which can block one caliber of bullet effortlessly, but allow another caliber to pass unimpeded, to be a quality defense? In order to have a frequency, the shields must oscillate, and that means it's constantly turning on and off. Star Wars shields, on the other hand, have no such weakness. They block what comes at them, regardless of its phase, frequency or anything else of that nature. All that matters is power and energy.

The whole phase/frequency thing is irrelevant anyway, because SW weapons are very powerful, and that energy must go somewhere. You can play all the neat little tricks you want, but when you get hit with more energy than you can handle, you are dead.

Hmmm.. this is true. The way they get around that in Star Trek is not only modulating the frequency of the shields, they also layer the shields. So, layer a through x are modulating at different capacities in region "x" (Oscillating, yes). Lasers are either long or short rays of light (in the case of pulse lasers they are short burst of light). If you are able to "disrupt" the frequency of the light beam being emitted, you can scramble it, weaken it, cause it to break up into shorter rays, and invariably, change their frequency. This is why Klingons originally tried out the "disruptor" method, which is in fact a compact bust of "laser" light, that modulates simultaneously on many frequencies, spectrums, etc., in an attempt to scramble federation shields, and hence, penetrate them.

OK so lets say you get through the shields. Now you have to get through the hull.

The hull of the enterprise is made of a material that alows a current of energy to pass through it (I forget what the hell sort of enerygy this is in particular). As the energy passes through the hull, it reinforces the material the hull is made of. This is so, at subwarp, you can hit a rock and not have it penetrate the hull. If something does penetrate the hull, the hull "heals" itself, as the energy passing through the material intensifies, and causes the hull to "change shape". In other words, it fills itself in. It's best to think of the "skin" of a constellation class cruiser as "fluid" - by controlling the amount of energy passing through the "skin" - you enable the skin to pool together at points where it has been compromised.

Now, of coursethe ships get holes in them, big ones. This is where the "fields" that comprise both the shields and the hull/fabric of the ship, have been stripped away by superior force. Even if you are able to do that in one area, compromise sections of the hull, support towers for the nacelles, etc. you still have the rest of the ship to contend with.

So if in some fashion, a laser can compromise something on the ship, you better bring a lunch, because its going to take all day to trash enough of the ship to disable it to a point where it is unable to withstand more damage.
 
2003-07-16 11:24:59 PM
OK - my prior post was directed at XaLEv

This is from the link he sited

Notice the common element: in each case (the Tacoma Narrows bridge, the air in your room, the glass), the object has a natural resonant frequency. If you manipulate the object at that frequency, the energy from successive waves will add, and the oscillations will grow until the object is either disrupted (eg- the Tacoma Narrows bridge or the glass) or reaches a point of equilibrium with resistive forces (the air in your room): Successive waveforms add because they are phase-coherent, so they interfere constructively rather than destructively. To illustrate this concept, imagine the act of pushing a child on a swing. If you apply a "push" when the child is at the top of each swing, the next swing will be larger than the one before. But if you apply the "push" at the wrong time, you will be fighting against the natural frequency and the next swing will be smaller than the one before.

This is EXACTLY why the Klingons used "Disruptors" to raise hell with federation shielding - they mess with the frequency of the shields, until they are useless, and hence, and then able to be penetrated. This is also EXACTLY why the federation developed layered field technology - so if by some chance you do loose the first, second, and third layer of shields, you can divert resources to those remaining, while you are simultaneously firing back, and getting the hell out of there. If you look at "Disruptor" style damage, versus other forms of damage - Roddenberry and crew did their best to illustrate how disruptors cause damage within and without the fields. They blow shiat up all over the place...

and who said that the enterprise would be silly enough to use lasers at a moving target that has superior shielding? They use "Photon" torpedos, and in the case of Dreadnaught class vessels, antimatter torpedos, and no, not even a constellation class cruiser has a hope in hell against that.
 
2003-07-16 11:37:23 PM
I've never heard of this layered shield stuff before. Where's it from?
 
2003-07-17 06:11:43 AM
And of course John Crichton would just open up a wormhole that connected to the heart of a sun and smoke both their arses like he did with the big-assed Skarran ship(see Farscape, "Infinite Possibilities, Part II: Icarus Abides").
I acknowledge that this is a pretty geeky thread, but being a hard-core 'Scaper, I just couldn't pass up a chance to represent.
 
2003-07-17 08:52:28 AM
Irishlad78,
>

LOL - you're right. If you look at the date on that website you'll see it's December 31, 2009.

It's a website like CNN to report events in a near-future online international battle exercise. I design/maintain the sites (issues 1-9 so far) and throw in some additional news stories I make up on my own just as a lark for the participants. I did that flash banner about a year ago (?) and thought I'd mentioned it when I read this thread.

ENN#7

But that's not to say I wouldn't love to see this movie actually made someday. :)

Thanks for the comments,

-Steve
 
2003-07-18 03:41:41 PM
XaLEv - I actually don't think the emperor would have even noticed their existence before they grabbed a decent foothold. The Republic stumbled on them by accident. Plus the emperor would still be battling the rebels and all the dissidents created by Nom Anor. True he could just go around with the death star and blow everything up but remember that the Vong have some pretty neat toys themselves. Hell, the brought and entire moon down on a planet and completely toasted another. Plus, the emperor might have tried for peace, remember the deal he make with the Sri Ruk (the ones who entrenched people into droids). And of course the vong would have played along then killed them.
 
2003-07-18 07:16:05 PM
Wow. And here I thought I was a geek.

Thanks guys!
 
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