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(Culture Clash)   Nobel prize winning scientist claims to have proof that DNA can transport itself across short distances, although it reaches further if you have a quick rest between experiments   (cultureclashdaily.com ) divider line
    More: Strange, Nobel Laureates, encounters, DNA, PCR, distilled water, DNA sequences, coils, Culture Clash  
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2931 clicks; posted to Geek » on 13 Jan 2011 at 11:22 AM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-01-13 08:46:25 AM  
And yet another new unit of measurement, the PeterNorth (PN)
 
2011-01-13 08:56:43 AM  
ioint

Took me a second to figure out this was supposed to be joint. The old brain was scrambling to find a definition.
 
2011-01-13 09:13:13 AM  

DammitIForgotMyLogin: And yet another new unit of measurement, the PeterNorth (PN)


How does that convert into teaspoons?

/I get the feeling the guy must REALLY keep hydrated...
 
2011-01-13 09:15:10 AM  

xanadian: DammitIForgotMyLogin: And yet another new unit of measurement, the PeterNorth (PN)

How does that convert into teaspoons?



It's not a measure of volume, but one of distance. Kinda like a parsec.
 
2011-01-13 09:17:36 AM  
Great, now homeopathic medicine scams will claim to have gene therapy.

This discovery if exactly as stated could be anywhere from really interesting to freaken amazing.
 
2011-01-13 09:23:49 AM  

Barfmaker: xanadian: DammitIForgotMyLogin: And yet another new unit of measurement, the PeterNorth (PN)

How does that convert into teaspoons?

It's not a measure of volume, but one of distance. Kinda like a parsec.


Oh, so it's got range AND volume. Kind of like a vector: direction and magnitude.
 
2011-01-13 09:30:48 AM  
I don't understand how this works so I will go with God did it.
 
2011-01-13 09:40:09 AM  
See, the headline is funny because it makes a sly reference to ejaculation because that is how DNA is transferred from a man into a woman during the process of intercourse which is how babies are made. The comment about a rest in between just adds to the innuendo.
 
2011-01-13 09:42:10 AM  

DammitIForgotMyLogin: And yet another new unit of measurement, the PeterNorth (PN)



Almost exactly what I was going to say.


Wait...I mean, who is this Peter North you speak of? He sounds like an interesting fellow.
 
2011-01-13 10:04:22 AM  

Makh: Great, now homeopathic medicine scams will claim to have gene therapy.

This discovery if exactly as stated could be anywhere from really interesting to freaken amazing.


I'm going with most likely false, or more accurately mistaken. The problem comes with the detection method: PCR. The problem with using PCR is that it is ridiculously sensitive and able to amplify just a few molecules of a particular DNA sequence if run for enough cycles. You would think this would be ideal, but it creates a problem of controls. Even the slightest contamination between tube A and tube B (performed by the same person, using the same pipettes) could easily give a false positive.

I'll see if I can find the paper to see if they had adequate controls, but I think contamination is a much more likely explanation of what happened here than teleportation.
 
2011-01-13 10:09:01 AM  
Quantum physics is cool. They've also shown that particles can react before you do things to them. :) I also read something about twin particles (don't remember the scientific term) both reacting to something that was done to only one of them...
 
2011-01-13 10:12:55 AM  

amaranthe: Quantum physics is cool. They've also shown that particles can react before you do things to them. :) I also read something about twin particles (don't remember the scientific term) both reacting to something that was done to only one of them...


Quantum entanglement.

so those who wear crystals for energy may be onto something..hmmm
 
2011-01-13 10:22:00 AM  

Histidine: I think contamination is a much more likely explanation of what happened here than teleportation.


Having run thousands of PCR reactions in my time, this was my thought, as well. I remain highly skeptical of this "discovery."
 
2011-01-13 10:22:57 AM  
Ah Peter North. Truly a man's man. Capable of taking out an eye from 30yds in high wind.
 
2011-01-13 10:25:46 AM  
Professor Jeff Reimers is not a Nobel Prize winner. (If he is, you'd think that his school web page would list the award.) He did not work on this research. He merely reacted to it, saying, "If the results are correct," says theoretical chemist Jeff Reimers of the University of Sydney, Australia, "these would be the most significant experiments performed in the past 90 years, demanding re-evaluation of the whole conceptual framework of modern chemistry."

Luc Montagnier is the Nobel Prize winner. (2008, Medicine) He participated in the research, a copy of which is reported here: DNA Waves and Water.

Abstract. Some bacterial and viral DNA sequences have been found to induce low frequency
electromagnetic waves in high aqueous dilutions. This phenomenon appears to be triggered by
the ambient electromagnetic background of very low frequency. We discuss this phenomenon
in the framework of quantum field theory. A scheme able to account for the observations is
proposed. The reported phenomenon could allow to develop highly sensitive detection systems
for chronic bacterial and viral infections.
 
2011-01-13 10:59:46 AM  
FTFA: "In one tube DNA was placed while the other held just pure water. The tubes were subjected to a low frequency electromagnetic field and after 18 hours were given a polymerase chain reaction (PCR), a process that multiplies millions of copies DNA sequence.

Low and behold there is the tube of pure water were imprints of the DNA originally placed in the first test tube. The DNA had mysteriously transported itself from one test tube to the other!"


Okay, I'm having difficulty accepting the veracity of any article on DNA recombination containing the words "Low and Behold".
 
2011-01-13 11:25:34 AM  

eddyatwork: See, the headline is funny because it makes a sly reference to ejaculation because that is how DNA is transferred from a man into a woman during the process of intercourse which is how babies are made. The comment about a rest in between just adds to the innuendo.


I'm not sure I understand.
 
2011-01-13 11:27:01 AM  

Kirk's_Toupee: amaranthe: Quantum physics is cool. They've also shown that particles can react before you do things to them. :) I also read something about twin particles (don't remember the scientific term) both reacting to something that was done to only one of them...

Quantum entanglement.

so those who wear crystals for energy may be onto something..hmmm


Quantum scale only need apply.
 
2011-01-13 11:28:48 AM  
I came here to make a Peter North crack, but someone beat me off
the line.

/giggity
 
2011-01-13 11:37:37 AM  
Eww.
 
2011-01-13 11:39:43 AM  

xanadian: Kind of like a vector: direction and magnitude.


images2.fanpop.com
 
2011-01-13 11:46:13 AM  
daily.likeme.net
It's not ready yet.
 
2011-01-13 11:50:37 AM  

UberDave: DammitIForgotMyLogin: And yet another new unit of measurement, the PeterNorth (PN)


Almost exactly what I was going to say.


Wait...I mean, who is this Peter North you speak of? He sounds like an interesting fellow.


I don't know if he's interesting, but he appears to be both effusively affectionate and popular with the ladies.
 
2011-01-13 11:54:29 AM  
Farther. Not further.

Yes, I'm correcting the grammar in a semen joke.
 
2011-01-13 12:06:16 PM  
That's a pretty whacky website. I'm not sure anypone should be getting science news from them.

Jews Control Julian Assange: WikiLeaks And Mossad Deal Protects Israel: Report Theorists ^
 
2011-01-13 12:08:23 PM  
If we can have quantum phsyics, why not quantum DNA?
 
2011-01-13 12:09:58 PM  
Well... it sounds like accidental cross contamination which is a well known issue. Reproduction of this experiment including documentation (video) of the methods would be prudent at this point. It would look really bad if this is just an error due to sloppy operating procedure.
 
2011-01-13 12:12:40 PM  
If we can have quantum phsyics, why not quantum DNA?

Okay, let's try that again: did I mean:
* If we can have quantum psychics, why not quantum DNA?

or

* If we can have quantum physics, why not quantum DNA?

It's unknowable.
 
2011-01-13 12:14:02 PM  
OK, this is really suspicious...

Search for "Jeff Reimers" on the official list of All Nobel Prizes.

Fail.
 
2011-01-13 12:16:33 PM  
Anybody with a New Scientist login want to let us know what the cited article^ says about it? From the URL, I'm guessing its what Histodine, Dracolich, et al. are saying.
 
2011-01-13 12:20:32 PM  

Barfmaker: It's not a measure of volume, but one of distance. Kinda like a parsec.


Don't be silly. 'Parsec' is a unit of time.
 
2011-01-13 12:27:52 PM  

Histidine: Makh: Great, now homeopathic medicine scams will claim to have gene therapy.

This discovery if exactly as stated could be anywhere from really interesting to freaken amazing.

I'm going with most likely false, or more accurately mistaken. The problem comes with the detection method: PCR. The problem with using PCR is that it is ridiculously sensitive and able to amplify just a few molecules of a particular DNA sequence if run for enough cycles. You would think this would be ideal, but it creates a problem of controls. Even the slightest contamination between tube A and tube B (performed by the same person, using the same pipettes) could easily give a false positive.

I'll see if I can find the paper to see if they had adequate controls, but I think contamination is a much more likely explanation of what happened here than teleportation.


That's my thoughts on it to. Especially if it is supposed to be a DNA free sample, keeping absolute clean conditions with no contamination at all (especially if we are talking short fragments) is damn hard. It is also worth noting that the study in question hasn't even been accepted yet by a journal (according to the New Scientists story), and the lead author isn't divulging details until it is. Issuing a press release for what can only be described as incredibly unlikely results, before it has even been accepted anywhere is a bad sign.

And if something THIS unlikely isn't accepted in Science/Nature but ends up in some obscure journal somewhere, you know it is bunk. I mean Science and Nature publish a lot of bullshiat just because it looks sexy but for something like this, if it doesn't make the grade there, it's definitely horrid.
 
2011-01-13 12:28:57 PM  

Thenixon: Anybody with a New Scientist login want to let us know what the cited article^ says about it? From the URL, I'm guessing its what Histodine, Dracolich, et al. are saying.



Here you go:

A Nobel prizewinner is reporting that DNA can be generated from its teleported "quantum imprint"

A STORM of scepticism has greeted experimental results emerging from the lab of a Nobel laureate which, if confirmed, would shake the foundations of several fields of science. "If the results are correct," says theoretical chemist Jeff Reimers of the University of Sydney, Australia, "these would be the most significant experiments performed in the past 90 years, demanding re-evaluation of the whole conceptual framework of modern chemistry."

Luc Montagnier, who shared the Nobel prize for medicine in 2008 for his part in establishing that HIV causes AIDS, says he has evidence that DNA can send spooky electromagnetic imprints of itself into distant cells and fluids. If that wasn't heretical enough, he also suggests that enzymes can mistake the ghostly imprints for real DNA, and faithfully copy them to produce the real thing. In effect this would amount to a kind of quantum teleportation of the DNA.

Many researchers contacted for comment by New Scientist reacted with disbelief. Gary Schuster, who studies DNA conductance effects at Georgia Institute of Technology in Atlanta, compared it to "pathological science". Jacqueline Barton, who does similar work at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, was equally sceptical. "There aren't a lot of data given, and I don't buy the explanation," she says. One blogger has suggested Montagnier should be awarded an IgNobel prize.

Yet the results can't be dismissed out of hand. "The experimental methods used appear comprehensive," says Reimers. So what have Montagnier and his team actually found?

Full details of the experiments are not yet available, but the basic set-up is as follows. Two adjacent but physically separate test tubes were placed within a copper coil and subjected to a very weak extremely low frequency electromagnetic field of 7 hertz. The apparatus was isolated from Earth's natural magnetic field to stop it interfering with the experiment. One tube contained a fragment of DNA around 100 bases long; the second tube contained pure water.

After 16 to 18 hours, both samples were independently subjected to the polymerase chain reaction (PCR), a method routinely used to amplify traces of DNA by using enzymes to make many copies of the original material. The gene fragment was apparently recovered from both tubes, even though one should have contained just water (see diagram).

DNA was only recovered if the original solution of DNA - whose concentration has not been revealed - had been subjected to several dilution cycles before being placed in the magnetic field. In each cycle it was diluted 10-fold, and "ghost" DNA was only recovered after between seven and 12 dilutions of the original. It was not found at the ultra-high dilutions used in homeopathy.

Physicists in Montagnier's team suggest that DNA emits low-frequency electromagnetic waves which imprint the structure of the molecule onto the water. This structure, they claim, is preserved and amplified through quantum coherence effects, and because it mimics the shape of the original DNA, the enzymes in the PCR process mistake it for DNA itself, and somehow use it as a template to make DNA matching that which "sent" the signal (arxiv.org/abs/1012.5166).

"The biological experiments do seem intriguing, and I wouldn't dismiss them," says Greg Scholes of the University of Toronto in Canada, who last year demonstrated that quantum effects occur in plants. Yet according to Klaus Gerwert, who studies interactions between water and biomolecules at the Ruhr University in Bochum, Germany, "It is hard to understand how the information can be stored within water over a timescale longer than picoseconds."

"The structure would be destroyed instantly," agrees Felix Franks, a retired academic chemist in London who has studied water for many years. Franks was involved as a peer reviewer in the debunking of a controversial study in 1988 which claimed that water had a memory (see "How 'ghost molecules' were exorcised"). "Water has no 'memory'," he says now. "You can't make an imprint in it and recover it later."

Despite the scepticism over Montagnier's explanation, the consensus was that the results deserve to be investigated further. Montagnier's colleague, theoretical physicist Giuseppe Vitiello of the University of Salerno in Italy, is confident that the result is reliable. "I would exclude that it's contamination," he says. "It's very important that other groups repeat it."

In a paper last year (Interdisciplinary Sciences: Computational Life Sciences, DOI: 10.1007/s12539-009-0036-7), Montagnier described how he discovered the apparent ability of DNA fragments and entire bacteria both to produce weak electromagnetic fields and to "regenerate" themselves in previously uninfected cells. Montagnier strained a solution of the bacterium Mycoplasma pirum through a filter with pores small enough to prevent the bacteria penetrating. The filtered water emitted the same frequency of electromagnetic signal as the bacteria themselves. He says he has evidence that many species of bacteria and many viruses give out the electromagnetic signals, as do some diseased human cells.

Montagnier says that the full details of his latest experiments will not be disclosed until the paper is accepted for publication. "Surely you are aware that investigators do not reveal the detailed content of their experimental work before its first appearance in peer-reviewed journals," he says.

How 'ghost molecules' were exorcised
The latest findings by Luc Montagnier evoke long-discredited work by the French researcher Jacques Benveniste. In a paper in Nature (vol 333, p 816) in 1988 he claimed to show that water had a "memory", and that the activity of human antibodies was retained in solutions so dilute that they couldn't possibly contain any antibody molecules (New Scientist, 14 July 1988, p 39).

Faced with widespread scepticism over the paper, including from the chemist Felix Franks who had advised against publication, Nature recruited magician James Randi and chemist and "fraudbuster" Walter Stewart of the US National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland, to investigate Benveniste's methods. They found his result to be "a delusion", based on a flawed design. In 1991, Benveniste repeated his experiment under double-blind conditions, but not to the satisfaction of referees at Nature and Science. Two years later came the final indignity when he was suspended for damaging the image of his institute. He died in October 2004.

That's not to say that quantum effects must be absent from biological systems. Quantum effects have been proposed in both plants and birds. Montagnier and his colleagues are hoping that their paper won't suffer the same fate as Benveniste's.
 
2011-01-13 12:31:57 PM  

Dracolich: OK, this is really suspicious...

Search for "Jeff Reimers" on the official list of All Nobel Prizes.

Fail.


Followup: He's not even listed in the award winning paper that they cited as his victory (2008 - in medicine). He's not in the acknowledgments. He's not in the bibliography.

This could just be the writer's error, but so could the rest of the article.

Can we get one more verification that the article is trash?
 
2011-01-13 12:32:01 PM  

Histidine: I'll see if I can find the paper to see if they had adequate controls, but I think contamination is a much more likely explanation of what happened here than teleportation.


I would think so too, but I would think a Nobel prize winning scientist would be up to his game on PCR. Contamination is a real biatch when you are doing PCR, but an exact copy of the DNA in the other tube? It would have to have been contaminated with the same DNA. I just finished the article, it says they used long terminal repeats from HIV DNA. It also mentioned that the HIV DNA only emitted electromagnetic signals at very high dilutions (10 ^-9 to 10 ^-16). Weird.


Skail: Having run thousands of PCR reactions in my time, this was my thought, as well. I remain highly skeptical of this "discovery."


I'm skeptical as well, but do you think a Nobel prize caliber scientist would publish a paper where the central discovery could be undone by contamination if he wasn't certain? It took me weeks of PCR just to achieve a modest success rate at avoiding contamination. I don't know... it sounds incredibly far-fetched, but it would quite literally revolutionize our understanding of life if it is reproducible.
 
2011-01-13 12:34:02 PM  

entropic_existence: The latest findings by Luc Montagnier evoke long-discredited work by the French researcher Jacques Benveniste. In a paper in Nature (vol 333, p 816) in 1988 he claimed to show that water had a "memory", and that the activity of human antibodies was retained in solutions so dilute that they couldn't possibly contain any antibody molecules (New Scientist, 14 July 1988, p 39).


He went full homeopath. You never go full homeopath.
 
2011-01-13 12:40:01 PM  
DNA was only recovered if the original solution of DNA - whose concentration has not been revealed - had been subjected to several dilution cycles before being placed in the magnetic field. In each cycle it was diluted 10-fold, and "ghost" DNA was only recovered after between seven and 12 dilutions of the original. It was not found at the ultra-high dilutions used in homeopathy.

Riight. But his PCR technique was flawless, I'm sure.
 
2011-01-13 12:43:07 PM  
Yeah, I'll go with no. It would take 10 years of succesful repeats to make me believe this one.
 
2011-01-13 12:43:46 PM  

Omnivorous: If we can have quantum phsyics, why not quantum DNA?

Okay, let's try that again: did I mean:
* If we can have quantum psychics, why not quantum DNA?

or

* If we can have quantum physics, why not quantum DNA?

It's unknowable.


I'm a quantum psycho: my level and intent of craziness cannot both be known at the same time.
 
2011-01-13 12:52:58 PM  

Dracolich: Dracolich: OK, this is really suspicious...

Search for "Jeff Reimers" on the official list of All Nobel Prizes.

Fail.

Followup: He's not even listed in the award winning paper that they cited as his victory (2008 - in medicine). He's not in the acknowledgments. He's not in the bibliography.

This could just be the writer's error, but so could the rest of the article.

Can we get one more verification that the article is trash?


The linked article is from a nutbag website and makes a bunch of mistakes. I posted the actual New Scientist article above.

drewkumo: I'm skeptical as well, but do you think a Nobel prize caliber scientist would publish a paper where the central discovery could be undone by contamination if he wasn't certain? It took me weeks of PCR just to achieve a modest success rate at avoiding contamination. I don't know... it sounds incredibly far-fetched, but it would quite literally revolutionize our understanding of life if it is reproducible.


Yes. The list of Nobel Laureates who have believes some truly whacked out shiat, and pushed it as scientific, is pretty damn long. Winning a Nobel prize is an indication of intelligence and talent sure, to a point. There's a hell of a lot of "right time, right place, right project" involved as well.

Too much of this sounds really bizarre (including the previously published work on detected electromagnetic waves which was, quite frankly, published in a low rent journal relatively well known for publishing some bizarre shiat). Plus this work hasn't even made it through peer-review anywhere, yet the authors are talking about it and promoting it publicly in New Scientist. Thats kind of a red flag too.

Thenixon: He went full homeopath. You never go full homeopath.


To be fair it was the Benveniste guy who did the water memory work, not the guy involved wit this stuff. New Scientist was just noting the similarity.

drewkumo: I would think so too, but I would think a Nobel prize winning scientist would be up to his game on PCR. Contamination is a real biatch when you are doing PCR, but an exact copy of the DNA in the other tube? It would have to have been contaminated with the same DNA. I just finished the article, it says they used long terminal repeats from HIV DNA. It also mentioned that the HIV DNA only emitted electromagnetic signals at very high dilutions (10 ^-9 to 10 ^-16). Weird.


If you are doing an experiment in a lab using a particular DNA sequence, any contamination detected is going to most likely be from it, because you are handling it in relatively large quantities relative to any other potential sources of contamination.
 
2011-01-13 12:55:22 PM  
I'd like to contribute my own research data, but I really need a female lab partner. It's all very clinical...and in the name of science.
 
2011-01-13 01:04:01 PM  
subby, I'd applaud your headline but I'm busy proving it.
 
2011-01-13 01:06:09 PM  

entropic_existence: Thenixon: He went full homeopath. You never go full homeopath.

To be fair it was the Benveniste guy who did the water memory work, not the guy involved wit this stuff. New Scientist was just noting the similarity.


Montagnier's device for measuring the electromagnetic signals was actually invented by Benveniste^. Montagnier seems to be trying to carry the torch of water memory. *sigh*

/but maybe he'll win that IgNobel, to complete the set.
 
2011-01-13 01:17:34 PM  
Ok, so water memory was basically a scam to help homeopathy companies make more money by lending them credibility. According to the wiki, they were diluting their "medicines" to the point where not even one molecule of it was left. Water memory was their excuse that it could still do the same thing without having any of the "medicine" in it.

This furthering of the scam would allow them to market many additional kinds of useless products for the gullible consumer.

I've done work for a nutraceutical company before... they have a lot of money. They are as filthy as they come in terms of truth though because they know they're lying their asses off. They tip toe around making direct claims like they're land mines, because if make one the FDA will swiftly launch an investigation and shut them down.
 
2011-01-13 01:22:18 PM  

Dracolich: Dracolich: OK, this is really suspicious...

Search for "Jeff Reimers" on the official list of All Nobel Prizes.

Fail.

Followup: He's not even listed in the award winning paper that they cited as his victory (2008 - in medicine). He's not in the acknowledgments. He's not in the bibliography.

This could just be the writer's error, but so could the rest of the article.

Can we get one more verification that the article is trash?


FTA - Low and behold there is the tube of pure water were imprints of the DNA originally placed in the first test tube. The DNA had mysteriously transported itself from one test tube to the other!

wat?

The site is full of articles with crappy grammar like this. It's not just the article that's trash.
 
2011-01-13 01:22:46 PM  

Thenixon: entropic_existence: Thenixon: He went full homeopath. You never go full homeopath.

To be fair it was the Benveniste guy who did the water memory work, not the guy involved wit this stuff. New Scientist was just noting the similarity.

Montagnier's device for measuring the electromagnetic signals was actually invented by Benveniste^. Montagnier seems to be trying to carry the torch of water memory. *sigh*

/but maybe he'll win that IgNobel, to complete the set.



Good find. Interesting stuff.
 
2011-01-13 01:25:18 PM  

Thenixon: entropic_existence: Thenixon: He went full homeopath. You never go full homeopath.

To be fair it was the Benveniste guy who did the water memory work, not the guy involved wit this stuff. New Scientist was just noting the similarity.

Montagnier's device for measuring the electromagnetic signals was actually invented by Benveniste^. Montagnier seems to be trying to carry the torch of water memory. *sigh*

/but maybe he'll win that IgNobel, to complete the set.


Ah, yeah I had no idea that the device itself was invented by Benveniste. I also hadn't read the "emitting radio waves" paper, although I mentioned above that it wasn't published anywhere exactly reputable. That Montagnier himself basically set up that journal and that it only spent two days "under review" make its claims laughable, at best. And yeah, the further details on the "detection apparatus" is just plain absurd.

Shame on New Scientist (yet again) for even giving this thing the light of day.
 
2011-01-13 01:34:15 PM  

padraig: Barfmaker: It's not a measure of volume, but one of distance. Kinda like a parsec.

Don't be silly. 'Parsec' is a unit of time.


B-b-but blackholes?
 
2011-01-13 01:38:48 PM  

Histidine: Makh: Great, now homeopathic medicine scams will claim to have gene therapy.

This discovery if exactly as stated could be anywhere from really interesting to freaken amazing.

I'm going with most likely false, or more accurately mistaken. The problem comes with the detection method: PCR. The problem with using PCR is that it is ridiculously sensitive and able to amplify just a few molecules of a particular DNA sequence if run for enough cycles. You would think this would be ideal, but it creates a problem of controls. Even the slightest contamination between tube A and tube B (performed by the same person, using the same pipettes) could easily give a false positive.

I'll see if I can find the paper to see if they had adequate controls, but I think contamination is a much more likely explanation of what happened here than teleportation.


Madness. Clearly, the DNA teleported. Everyone knows that all labware is clean of all contaminating DNA and that grad students never fark up and lie to the advisors.
 
2011-01-13 01:45:15 PM  
I call shenanigans.
 
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