If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Some Guy)   Myths about gun control   (tsra.com) divider line 467
    More: Interesting  
•       •       •

31818 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Jul 2003 at 12:10 AM   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



467 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | » | Last | Show all
 
2003-07-14 03:48:39 PM
Shadis:"So he made it anti-gun VIOLENCE, and just perpetuated the myth that if we just made it harder for law abiding citizens to get guns, that there'd be no more gun violence."

Um, no he didn't. Watch the movie, then maybe you'll be able to express accurately what it is about.

"everything to do with the fact that it's a hypocritical pile of crap that's sold as a documentary but specifically intended to decieve its viewers."

And without watching it you would know this how? I watched it and made up my OWN opiion. I don't think t's too much to ask for you to do the same before expressing an opinion about the contents of a movie you have never seen.

"And yet, he's said numerous times "I believe that we don't need handguns""

Which is in no way anti-gun. I fully agree with him and own several guns.

"and "we have too many guns""

I'd have to agree that more than 1 for every man woman and child is a bit too many. Again, not an anti-gun statement.

"and "we have to put the guns away, we have to put the bullets away"."

Not knowing the context ths was spoken in I have no comment.
 
2003-07-14 03:51:13 PM
2003-07-14 03:32:00 PM Crunch61


Big Al
Thanks Captain Obvious
and
you farking moron
come to mind. 2003-07-14 02:14:34
You hurl insults in every thread.

And yes, I must be making up my references as I go along.


So responding to somebody who calls me an "asshat liberal" with an insult back at them is insulting people just because they argue with me?

Plus Captain Obvious is a farkin INSULT????

Try again


I think it's great how you twist statements. Sure, gun control could not stop the German invasions but it did make occupation a lot easier. Maybe we should try that in Iraq.


And this somehow manages to come into the debate over firearms in the US... ??? Who is occupying America exactly and why do you need guns to stop it?

If nobody is occupying the US, then your useless comments about how Nazis used gun laws already in place to equate gun control with Nazi rule is ad hom. attacks. Next?
 
2003-07-14 03:54:25 PM
Weemil....

You have the truth on the part of a gun is a tool. I have carried a gun in and out of uniform for years. I don't carry on now, since computers don't try and assault me (ceptin' for dem dam LINUX systems).

If it was the intent of the gun control loby to just make sure that responsible folks own guns, and that criminals were not able to get them, anyone with a brain would see that as a just and fair thing. Fact is, they want to take guns away. If they don't want to take guns away, then the legal basis that they use to regulate said guns, could be used to take guns away. My argument is how legal precedence works. I was not in favor of the ammendment to ban flag burning. Can you imagine what somone who could use this ammendment (if it passed) to spring board into another issue? If you establish the "right" of a government to do something, even if it is with every good intention, that right soon becomes an obligation, then a law. I belive that is the strongest argument for not wanting to put controls on the gun thing.

Also, the feds mandated background checks for all gun purchases now. Most states issue permits for pistols, which also require background checks. Some even go so far as to mandate training. This is training to exercise a constitutional right? Let's put this same argument to other cases, like to right to vote. Should then the government (which uses similar processes for voter registration as gun permit, excluding fingerprinting) require all voters to pass a civics class, or a test of some sort? It would be wonderfull, that way only responsible people would vote!!!

If you don't like that last statment, then you can understand why pro-gun folks don't want to be regulated in a similar manner.
 
2003-07-14 03:56:21 PM
2003-07-14 03:37:35 PM Crunch61

Try looking up the word "rhetorical" in the dictionary. You may learn something.


Speaking of insults...

Hypocrisy much?

2003-07-14 03:41:41 PM MikeWeath


Big al: You do like changing the Constitution?? So you're for prohibition right? See that strawman arguement can be used on both extremes.


How is that the same and how is my argument a strawman argument? Because I believe that some parts of the Constitution should be (and most have been) changed because of different times and views? Slavery, the right to vote by all. These are examples of things added to the Constitution for the greater good. Prohibition was not for the greater good and a violation of the freedoms that the Constitution gave to people (drugs are another violation but thats another story)

Saying how the times are different now and a well trained militia with muskets isn't going to protect you from the government any longer is a strawman argument? Wrong, thats the truth. And if you gun lovers would just stop hiding behind that it would be step 1. Step 2 would be you admitting you like guns for pleasure and it has absolutely nothing to do with you overthrowing the government.
 
2003-07-14 03:59:28 PM
Big Al: I'll admit that right now. But that doesn't mean it should be taken away any more than my steak knives or my television. This is America. We get to own things.
 
2003-07-14 04:01:50 PM
I'm not a big fan of the brady bill, but here's what Sarah Brady's website has to say about Mike Moores documentary:


The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence and I would like to extend our praise and congratulations to Michael Moore on Bowling for Columbines Oscar nomination for best documentary. We are very pleased that Michael Moores Bowling for Columbine is receiving the acclaim it deserves. The news is the latest success for Michael, whose film explores gun ownership and gun violence in the United States. The film presents to millions of Americans the horrors of gun violence and the destructive attitude within the NRA. His hard-hitting film inspires dialogue and activism across the nation on gun violence prevention. And the nomination helps focus much needed attention on an issue that the NRA wants legislators to ignore.


To me, that seems like a logical statement. Mike Moore (I'm not a big fan) is only stating his opinion on a topic that he explored, indeed a bit tilted towards the anti-side. Imagine how boring it would be if he slanted it towards the pro-gun side, it would appear like another NRA media whore flick. I dont think Sarah Brady and Mike Moore have a problem with the everyday gun owner, they want guns to be regulated. You must understand that by sympathizing with the other side I have thus perjured myself and my Ruger loving nature. I'm a hypocrite and I'm going to drink a lot tonight.
 
2003-07-14 04:03:36 PM
"How is that the same and how is my argument a strawman argument?"

You said: "You don't like changing the Constitution?? Then what exactly are the ammendments??" in response to the idea that using the courts is preferable to changing the constitution. He never said all ammendments are bad. You took his statement , twisted it and replied to it as if he'd said all ammendments are bad. Thus it is strawman. Not exactly the opposite of what I said, but close enough and clearly a strawman arguement.
 
2003-07-14 04:03:56 PM
Big Al
One more comment and I'll be done with you...

I know I listed some obscure references earlier. Not everything is available on the web. I know what I said is true and I know the references listed exist. You're free to disbelieve.

I'll bet there are references online about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in 1943. A few incredibly brave jews armed only with handguns were able to, albeit temporarily, halt the deportations to the death camps.

I try but fail to understand your arguments. You really don't believe that the nazis subjugated those they held captive? You don't think the Constitution should limit the power of the government and guarantee the freedoms of the people?

You may not say these things outright, but they are inferred. I know that because I am not the only one that questions your arguements. In fact, that is about all you do. You argue without offering any substantial rebuttal.

Have a nice day.
 
2003-07-14 04:12:56 PM
Try looking up the word "rhetorical" in the dictionary. You may learn something.

Speaking of insults...

Hypocrisy much?


I just can't resist... That was not being insulting, that was being patronizing. The difference is subtle, but it's there.

/Damn... There I go again!

//Now I'm really done!! I'm sure I'll see you again. I actually enjoy debating with you!
 
2003-07-14 04:13:32 PM
2003-07-14 04:03:56 PM Crunch61


Big Al
One more comment and I'll be done with you...


LOL! Looks like somebody got a little pissy when I owned you at your own game!


I know I listed some obscure references earlier. Not everything is available on the web. I know what I said is true and I know the references listed exist. You're free to disbelieve.


I never disbelieved. I just asked for a simple link. You gave none, then you tried insulting my intelligence because I wouldn't go to a library right now to look it up to see if you were right or not.


I'll bet there are references online about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in 1943. A few incredibly brave jews armed only with handguns were able to, albeit temporarily, halt the deportations to the death camps.


But you said there were no uprisings!!?


I try but fail to understand your arguments. You really don't believe that the nazis subjugated those they held captive? You don't think the Constitution should limit the power of the government and guarantee the freedoms of the people?


Don't blame me because you cannot understand my arguments. Guaranteeing the freedoms of the people includes giving them any gun they want for pleasure and sport? I thought a well-trained militia was necessary to secure the freedom was what the Constitution said to allow people weapons. So you basically admit you want to twist the Constitution to allow ANYBODY a gun, whether they would actually fight to overthrow the government or go hunting or to the shooting range?


You may not say these things outright, but they are inferred. I know that because I am not the only one that questions your arguements. In fact, that is about all you do. You argue without offering any substantial rebuttal.


Argue without offering substantial rebuttal? Which comments are you reading? Obviously not mine.


Have a nice day.


Threw in the towel already huh
 
2003-07-14 04:21:51 PM
"Saying how the times are different now and a well trained militia with muskets isn't going to protect you from the government any longer is a strawman argument?"

No, you'd have to twist someone else's statements to make strawman arguement. I think that arguement is BS anyway. Do you you think that even if 1% of todays populaion (that's `2.5 million people) launched an armed guerilla revolution against the government that we wouldn't stand a chance?
 
2003-07-14 04:23:07 PM
2003-07-14 03:59:28 PM kpar90


Big Al: I'll admit that right now. But that doesn't mean it should be taken away any more than my steak knives or my television. This is America. We get to own things.


And unfortunately, some things you own like guns are used for nothing but killing. These things are dangerous and the NRA cries bloody murder when people try to regulate them.

2003-07-14 04:03:36 PM MikeWeath

You said: "You don't like changing the Constitution?? Then what exactly are the ammendments??" in response to the idea that using the courts is preferable to changing the constitution. He never said all ammendments are bad. You took his statement , twisted it and replied to it as if he'd said all ammendments are bad. Thus it is strawman. Not exactly the opposite of what I said, but close enough and clearly a strawman arguement.


What he "likes" and "wants" is different than what happens. If he wants courts to decide what means what, thats fine. Currently, the courts and ammendments are used to change and interpret the constitution.

I was responding to this:
The constitution is fluid, and does not need changing based on whatever the thought of the day seems to be.

Which is wrong, and I proved it to be wrong by stating ammendments which "change the constitution" for good. I twisted nothing, if he got his way, there would be no Constitutional Ammendments, leaving the Courts to decide everything (The wonderfully racist supreme court until the Civil Rights movement given all the power?)

2003-07-14 04:12:56 PM Crunch61

I just can't resist... That was not being insulting, that was being patronizing. The difference is subtle, but it's there.


So you're forced to argue semantics to justify your comment towards me all the while crying because I am such a meanie to others? Like I said, hypocrite.
 
2003-07-14 04:30:39 PM
2003-07-14 04:21:51 PM MikeWeath

No, you'd have to twist someone else's statements to make strawman arguement. I think that arguement is BS anyway. Do you you think that even if 1% of todays populaion (that's `2.5 million people) launched an armed guerilla revolution against the government that we wouldn't stand a chance?


It would be a good fight. But what's your point exactly? Do you actually think over 2 million people would fight the militar? And what are you trying to prove? I'm not for taking away all guns. I'm for strict control and harder licensing tests.
 
2003-07-14 04:31:21 PM
Both sides of the gun issue sound like buffons often...the pro-gun side has their dorks who are from the "large gun as compensation for small penis" school of thought, while the anti-gun people have this insane notion that without guns, the whole world would be sunshine and rainbows!
I own two guns, I don't use them but I have them in case I need to use them. I'll give up my guns when the criminals give up theirs!
 
2003-07-14 04:33:22 PM
""The constitution is fluid, and does not need changing based on whatever the thought of the day seems to be. That's why we have the courts, to interpret and apply it according to what the law is or should be. You start "changing" the text itself and it'll be more restrictive, and leads to thinks liek prohibition, or amendments against flag burning, or similar nonsense.."""

"Which is wrong, and I proved it to be wrong by stating ammendments which "change the constitution" for good."

The fact that good ammendments exist in no way disproves that changing the Constitution leads to stupid stuff like Prohibition and flag burning ammendents.

"I twisted nothing, if he got his way, there would be no Constitutional Ammendments, leaving the Courts to decide everything (The wonderfully racist supreme court until the Civil Rights movement given all the power?)"

You twisted it right there. "if he got his way, there would be no Constitutional Ammendments" the exact thing I said was a strawman arguement. You made a strawman arguement. Deal.
 
2003-07-14 04:38:06 PM
I know I listed some obscure references earlier. Not everything is available on the web. I know what I said is true and I know the references listed exist. You're free to disbelieve

Ya, but it's up to you to cite your sources. In other words, if your going to offer up stuff as fact, then
provide citations, and not leave it up to the reader to either assume you're correct or do a reasearch project
to find out if you're correct.
 
2003-07-14 04:39:08 PM
The problem with arguing with Big Al is that he never really offers any concrete, empirical evidence of his own opinions on the matter here, and simply assaults other's for providing proof that's too obscure or attacking the style of argument, instead of the point being made.

It's really difficult to make any headway.
 
2003-07-14 04:43:23 PM
"But what's your point exactly?"

That even today a group of armed citizens could overthrow the government.

"Do you actually think over 2 million people would fight the militar?"

Yes, given a good reason.

"And what are you trying to prove?"

That even today a group of armed citizens could overthrow the government.
 
2003-07-14 04:44:10 PM
2003-07-14 04:23:07 PM Big Al And unfortunately, some things you own like guns are used for nothing but killing. These things are dangerous and the NRA cries bloody murder when people try to regulate them.

Wait. You mean a gun is for killing people? I'll rush right out and give mine back then--all 19 of them.

Or maybe not.
 
2003-07-14 04:47:21 PM
2003-07-14 01:44:02 PM Korovyov
Remember, also, the asshat running the show for law enforcement over there was Charles Moose. What a blue falcon that was.

2003-07-14 02:10:32 PM Big Al
God forbid there isn't something ONLINE! Damn, have we forgotten about libraries, microfiche, and hardbound encyclopedias already?
 
2003-07-14 04:51:24 PM
Big Al,

Totaly good idea, let's regulate the snot out of gun ownership. Then, since we are have now made the case that we can regulate the right of the individual as long as it serves the good of the many,

Let's make strict tests for voting so that irresponsible people dont'abuse this right.

Let's regulate speech to make sure that it is not harmful and uniformed people print things that are untrue and harmful

Let's remove any right to search and sizure, as long as we are only going after people we all hate (as in terrorists, and yes, I know that is happening now, and YES i don't like it)

Our rights are there for as long as we will fight for them, not roll over stick our little socialist assess up in the air, and say "Well, as long as it's for the bennifit of all"
 
2003-07-14 04:54:17 PM
2003-07-14 03:54:25 PM uselessgit


Weemil....

You have the truth on the part of a gun is a tool. I have carried a gun in and out of uniform for years. I don't carry on now, since computers don't try and assault me (ceptin' for dem dam LINUX systems).

If it was the intent of the gun control loby to just make sure that responsible folks own guns, and that criminals were not able to get them, anyone with a brain would see that as a just and fair thing. Fact is, they want to take guns away. If they don't want to take guns away, then the legal basis that they use to regulate said guns, could be used to take guns away. My argument is how legal precedence works. I was not in favor of the ammendment to ban flag burning. Can you imagine what somone who could use this ammendment (if it passed) to spring board into another issue? If you establish the "right" of a government to do something, even if it is with every good intention, that right soon becomes an obligation, then a law. I belive that is the strongest argument for not wanting to put controls on the gun thing.

Also, the feds mandated background checks for all gun purchases now. Most states issue permits for pistols, which also require background checks. Some even go so far as to mandate training. This is training to exercise a constitutional right? Let's put this same argument to other cases, like to right to vote. Should then the government (which uses similar processes for voter registration as gun permit, excluding fingerprinting) require all voters to pass a civics class, or a test of some sort? It would be wonderfull, that way only responsible people would vote!!!

If you don't like that last statment, then you can understand why pro-gun folks don't want to be regulated in a similar manner.


There's a subtle difference between arming onesself and voting, however.

Arms kill. Voting (arguably) doesn't. There was a system of checks and balances built into our constitution to prohibit governmental exploitation. The right to assemble, as mentioned before, still exists, however, for the public's safety, permits are required. Same for driving. So should it be for the ability to have guns. Not necessarily a "per gun" registration, but the right to bear arms should be something requiring a permit similar to a driver's license. The permit should require a safe shooting course (of X hours) and a small psych evaluation.

This, of course, would be my solution to the issue. Admittedly I'm not a gun afficionado(sp?), but given something that's sole meaning for existence is death/bodily harm, training should be involved.

Also, guns are not a tool, unless by 'tool' you mean 'instrument of death.' A hammer's a tool. Its an instrument of hammering. weapons are tools of distruction, so we'd be getting into the semantics of what a tool is[n't].
 
2003-07-14 04:56:59 PM
guns don't kill..bullets do...let them have guns, but ban bullets!!!!

I know, I'm being a smarta$$...so what!
 
2003-07-14 05:07:08 PM
All of the idiots who say that guns keep women from getting raped piss me off. Case in point: ME. I was first raped at age 4. Obviously, I was too young to own a gun. Second time: age 19. Again, too young to own a gun, and it wouldn't have done any good, as it was a case of date rape.

When I was 22, a man broke into my apartment, pointed a gun at me and told me not to scream. I was in the kitchen heating up a small pot of soup. The first thought that entered my mind was, this guy's gonna rape me...I'll fight and die before I let that happen again. I threw the pot of boiling soup in the jerk's face, he screamed, and ran out. No gun necessary.

To the gun lovers: if you believe that guns prevent rape, then I suggest you train infants to use and carry guns (Pampers with built-in holsters!) since even infants can be raped. Then make it mandatory for all women to carry loaded guns when they go out on dates.

Of course, some kids will end up killing themselves, or other kids, or maybe even their parents, but I guess that's OK with the gun lovers, since they're PROTECTING THEMSELVES. Right??
 
2003-07-14 05:12:36 PM
"I was raped at age 4..."

Everybody's a victim here...

/rolls eyes, remembers threads with mother of conjoined twins and Kilipo's family, wishes people would keep the personal anecdotes to a minimum
 
2003-07-14 05:13:06 PM
So the right to own guns basically boils down to the freedom to keep guns around in case the government decides to take your guns?

Oh and the fact that the constitution clearly states a "well regulated" militia means that the founding fathers encouraged gun regulation, period.
 
2003-07-14 05:14:03 PM
Lorelle: Excelent example of a strawman arguemnt. Very weak.
 
2003-07-14 05:17:06 PM
Lorelle - That was possibly the most inane, useless, disjointed, irrational, and pointless post in this entire thread.

Given that Big Al is posting, this is an achievement.
 
2003-07-14 05:22:29 PM
"So the right to own guns basically boils down to the freedom to keep guns around in case the government decides to take your guns?"

No. They're also there to hunt wih, defend ourselves with, and target shoot. Or just for poking holes in stuff if we want.

"Oh and the fact that the constitution clearly states a "well regulated" militia means that the founding fathers encouraged gun regulation, period."

No, it doesn't.

"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334,[C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950])

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms." (Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (1788) at 169)

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." (Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment [ I Annals of Congress at 750 {August 17, 1789}])

That last one specificy shows the militia was not refering to a government established force.
 
2003-07-14 05:30:34 PM
Nathan.

Go read the constitution, then if you get reaaaaal bored, all the case law about guns and right to own and such.

There are a gob of things that are rights that have been either clarified in subsuquent court cases, modified by amendment, or changed via legal recource or social custom.

I am not advocating for a "living" version of the constitution. The laws there were very hard to change for a reason. big al had spewed some crap about that before, but he did miss the social climate in which many of those changes occured. None of those modifications to the constitution happened without years of fighting, courtcases, marches, and massive civil unrest, and not to meantion the deaths of tens of thousands of Americans.

It is not like some smart guy went out and said "hey, this would be neato!" and changed the law of the land.

People have a right to own guns, that's what's been established, and you don't have to like it. People have the right to commit crimes with those guns(or maybe the ability), what you do get, as a victim is the right of protection (in the form of criminal prosecution AFTER the fact) and the criminal gets the right to cable TV....ect....

Again. Point is and will always be: IF you muck with this right, which ones are next.

(weemil, nice post, but we don't have a right to drive a car...that's why it's regulated. Also, you may not make the connection at this point in time about reasons to regulate other rights, based off the fact that they are not violent, but then you advocate for what the constitution does not, which is place value on our rights based off a moral distinction)

Each right we have is no less important that any other that was granted. They are all worth fighting for, even if they are absued by asshats, but that's what a criminal justice system is alededly for.
 
2003-07-14 05:33:05 PM
Nathan: It's not quite so simple. I do agree with the regulation part, but not the flippant attitude toward ownership.

So change that attitude buddy.
 
2003-07-14 05:37:33 PM
OOOPPPSSSS

my fault, the constituion does not grant rights, it ensures rights and liberties and restricts the rights of the government to act upon the people and the stat.

I have been too long in libberal ahmurica....

please accept my humble appology
 
2003-07-14 05:40:27 PM
-Ironically, a gun (in Lorelle's hands, of course,) could have saved both Lorelle and her would-be assailant from suffering injury.

-Just because Big Al doesn't know how to organize an effective guerrilla resistance doesn't mean that nobody else on planet earth does.

More laws! More cameras! Less power for the people! I wanna live at all costs.
 
2003-07-14 05:41:42 PM
"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334,[C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950])

How 'bout this one:

"A black man has no rights that a white man is bound to respect." United States Supreme Court--Dred Scot decision

Goes to show you how things change, including gun ownership.
 
2003-07-14 05:54:28 PM
I think the two following statements sum up my ideas on gun control. Obvious? Yes. Simplistic? Definitely.

1) If no one has guns, no one will be able to hurt each other with them. Period.

2) 20,000 people dying in one year is unacceptable. Period.

3) As long as a gun is convenient, the temptation is there to use it. Humans are human, and humans are stupid.

Now, to elaborate:

I think that recording and tracking of firearm "fingerprints" from manufacturer to vendor to consumer is a necessary and potential solution to the "Forbid EVERYONE from having guns" problem. Yes, it is possible to alter the print of a gun, but it is also possible to alter one's handprint, and that is an accepted forensic tactic.

I also think that this argument will go around and around forever, because it is a catch-22. As long as it is possible for criminals to obtain guns untraceably and illegally, some people will feel the need to protect themselves accordingly, which is valid. Proponents of gun control say that if you continue to allow law-abiding citizens to easily obtain guns, it will be all the easier for criminals to obtain them, which is a valid argument as well.

However, considering the dangerousness of firearms, I do not believe that the ability to hunt or target practice or anything else frivolous like recreation is a reasonable argument to continue to disallow gun control.
 
2003-07-14 05:58:43 PM
Since the main argument from the pro-gun crowd is usually that the citizenry needs to have their own arms in case the need arises to overthrow the government, does anyone find it at all ironic that the only governments in recent memory that might have led some people to call for their removal were Republican?
I don't think anyone ever promoted the idea of an armed revolution against the Kennedy government, although it's thought by some that the Republicans played at least a minor role in the "mini armed revolution" that took him out of power. I don't think Jimmy Carter ever pissed off or frightened anyone to the point where armed revolution was brought up. The Republicans tried to overthrow the Clinton government (with the Monica scandal), but were ultimately unsuccessful in doing it until the election rolled around. The poulace might have been disappointed with Clinton, but they never feared for their lives or their freedom.
I'm not a Democrat, I'm not a Republican, I'm a Canadian, and while it's been suggested to me on fark in the past that since I don't live in the U.S. I should STFU about anything that concerns them, I still must say that the only U.S. government in my lifetime I would ever think might need to be overthrown by the people is the Bush government, who have already made frightening changes to the U.S. systyem of government in order to tighten their hold on the nation's politics, and made frightening changes to the privacy and rights of their people in the name of post-9/11 protection.
Democratic governments don't have much of a history of going to war, and are generally in the camp of non-violence, so I can't see any need to overthrow them, since it likely won't be a amtter of life and death, and can therefore wait until the next election year. Republicans are more likely to own weapons, and historically, Republican governments are a little less squeamish about the use of force, in whatever form that might take.
So if the only government that might need to be overthrown is a Republican one, this revolt will likely never happen, since most gun owners are Republican, and usually agree with the line the government is selling them, as is the case today.
 
2003-07-14 06:02:55 PM
Anyone remember the response by the moderator to Billy Madison's answer to the industrialization question?

Act like I just said that to Sens. Man is that a rambling piece of crap. We're dumber for having read it.
 
2003-07-14 06:03:59 PM
kpar90

We all know the Dred-Scot decision was bad on many different levels. It established that states rights superceded the rights of other states: as in the sad case of ownership of a black man. I would think that if the race were not a factor, the court would have probably voted the same way. That they were also racist and frankly deserving of the gratest contempt for such statments as you qoute only injects moral judgment into the equaison.

If I recall the base of the argument in Scott was that once the plantif stepped foot on the soil of a state with different laws, those laws had precident over the private property of the man from the other state. In reality, that sounded good, in practice was applied to the ownership of another human being. The issue was with merrit, the case given as this merrit was terrible, as it basicaly challened and upheld the right of one man to own another. If the plantif were a cow, and the other state outlawed the ownership of the cow, then we would see this as a very fair decision in todays world.

This case did lay the foundation for the civil war, and a new ammendment was added to the constitution that garunteed equal protection under the law. Scott actualy showed how legislation from the bench could be a very bad way to decide law. The civil war not withstanding, the process take to correct the constitution to make it fair for blacks and to outlaw slavery was the correct method (ie. garunteed right, tied to the constitution)

If the Scott decision had gone the other way, and then some years later another court reversed that decision, we would not have had the bennifit of the law to garuntee the rights.

(yea, a stipulation, i know that blacks may not actually have enjoyed said rights at the time, but that's a tottaly different topic, it was the correct thing to do, even if it took white ahmerica 150 years to wake up to that fact)
 
2003-07-14 06:05:44 PM
For the people who reply "should there be tests for the 1st amendment?" when confronted with registration for guns, please take note that not all speech is free. Slander, libel, harassment, and things like yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater are all regulated by law.

Also, to the anti-gun-control people, do you believe that drug laws should be repealed?
 
2003-07-14 06:11:22 PM
Git: I was just using it as an example of how constitutional issues change. The constitution laid the foundation for the civil war. For that matter, it was almost inevitable. There is no way those 13 colonies would have agreed to a federal government without the Virginia Compromise and the Bill of Rights (for the South that meant states rights as much as anything else), and as a result the perpetuation of slavery amongst two competing economic forces made sure that only one would survive. Had to happen in one way or another.
 
2003-07-14 06:18:10 PM
Apophis,

As i am the only gun nut left here....

OK, your statements about limitations of the first amendment were huge considerations when clarifications of those rights were decided.

Free speech has limitations only in the case where somone will press charges. The anti-gun crowd want to put regulations on ownship, or stipulations that exeed the law as it stands now, PRIOR to the said possession of the gun.

This would be like having to screen any speech or print, prior to it being put out. That is a more current analogy.

Every right can be abused. Speech, free press, right to vote, rigt to have a gun and or use it. Abuse of these rights is a felony, but the commition of the act is not one that must be screened and "blessed" by the government, unlike conditions of ownership of a gun.

Throwing the possession of drugs in this is ony a diversion tactic. We don't have garunteed right to own drugs. It's not in the constitution, not even aluded to.
 
2003-07-14 06:19:41 PM
Myth No. 3: The United States has such a high murder rate because Americans own so many guns.

There is no international evidence backing this up. The Swiss, New Zealanders and Finns all own guns as frequently as Americans, yet in 1995 Switzerland had a murder rate 40 percent lower than Germany's, and New Zealand had one lower than Australia's. Finland and Sweden have very different gun ownership rates, but very similar murder rates. Israel, with a higher gun ownership rate than the U.S., has a murder rate 40 percent below Canada's. When one studies all countries rather than just a select few as is usually done, there is absolutely no relationship between gun ownership and murder.


Grrrrrrr! Guess what kids? These aren't great big, heterogenous societies this thing sites! They all have a history of being pretty nice folks (sweet Jeebus, Switzerland's been pacifist for like 500 years!).

This article is a bunch of debunkable bull. It's not scientific, it's political. For instance, in citing the stats on serious injury in cases when the victim has a gun vs. when they don't - how many assailants were shot? How many killed? How many of these cases involved 2 people with guns, so the one left standing earned the 'victim' title? How many of these 'victims' were prosecuted for assault with a deadly weapon, owning an illegal weapon, etc., etc.?

And... what the Fark is up with Fark? I thought Drew et al. left most of their politics out of things? OR are you guys testing the server to see if it can stand up to a big fat flamewar????
 
2003-07-14 06:21:37 PM
kpar90,

Yep, you are right. Totally. The manner in which that had to be dicided was by amendment, not by legislation from the bench. As sad as the outcome for Scott was (don't recall if that was the plantif or not), the best remedy was an amendment.
 
2003-07-14 06:21:57 PM
"Also, to the anti-gun-control people, do you believe that drug laws should be repealed?"

Some of them do. Some don't.

Why ask, anyway? Don't you already know that you'll find enough hypocrisy to satisfy you?

If not, here's a trick: just ignore the folks who do believe in repealing drug laws. Now, you need never experience doubt when you ask rhetorical questions.
 
2003-07-14 06:22:39 PM
They all have a history of being pretty nice folks (sweet Jeebus, Switzerland's been pacifist for like 500 years!).


That's just so the rest of the world won't attack them to take back al of the Jews' gold and art they kept for the Nazis, and have held on to ever since. Real nice. Riiiiiight....
 
2003-07-14 06:24:00 PM
Facts,

Criminals commit crimes.

Criminals are not detered by laws.

States with concealed carry permits availible to the general public have lower crime rates then others that prohibit private citizens from carrying.

States and regions with very strict gun laws, have higher gun crime rates then areas with lax (Within the US)

Cars kill more people then guns. (in us)

Smoking kills more people then guns.

The second ammendment states. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Gun Control laws have not been proven to reduce crime. Many studies suggest a paradoxial effect.

Further gun control laws will expand the scope of governments power.

Further gun control laws will require additional funding to enact.

Given these facts, how can one rationalize stricter gun laws? Please I am waiting for an answer. I will continue to wait for all eternity I wager because if past performance is an indicator of future results any new gun legislation will be ignored by criminals and therefore be of no benifit. Why should we increase governments power and expense of operation with legislation that has never been shown to have an effect on gun crime. This is a high cost, no benifit scenario.
 
2003-07-14 06:27:51 PM
kpar - wtf does that have to do with their gun laws? The Finns have probably done some pretty nasty things to the Lapps in their day, and the New Zealanders have definitely beaten upon the Maori culture until pretty recent history.

Here's some news for you - nearly every French or German speaking-person who didn't participate in the Nazi regime was either shot by GERMANS, went underground, or had to run away... this includes the Swiss. Not justifying their crimes, but putting it in context.
 
2003-07-14 06:29:14 PM
2003-07-14 05:15:39 AM binky_boy


"Anybody with Walt Disney's picture on their profile shouldn't be spouting about homoeroticism."

That's right. We should leave it to the experts like "binky_boy"

"I have to go polish my Sig now, I hope there is a good Chuck Heston flick on."

I'm really hoping this is a put-on. It's just too easy to make fun of the phrase "polish my Sig".
 
2003-07-14 06:34:20 PM
Vman,

I don't beleive we need to have any justification for owning a gun than we need for a justification to vote.

Criminals, and such asside, the strongest reason for not having "gun control" that will eliminate the right for ahmuricans to own arms is that it removes a right established in our constitution.

If this were to come to pass, then the same argument could be used to take away other rights. The libs and some of the republicans already want to do that, and I say make it as bloody difficult for them as possible. I honestly think putting the reasons of crime, and detering crime is as usefull as tieing gun rights to hunting. It's the secondary concern, not the primary.
 
2003-07-14 06:41:58 PM
the assault weapons ban will be over soon.

a new ar 15 will replace my shotgun for home defense.
 
Displayed 50 of 467 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | » | Last | Show all



This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »





Report