You really dont want to know the odds on Bingo slots.

I recall seeing billboards in Nevada advertising slots with a 95% payback -- as if this is some kind of good thing. So, on average, for every dollar you put in you get 95c back. Sign me up!

I've won over $300 on my limited experience with slot machines. Nickel slots, and move to the next machine right after you win anything more than $5.

Oh, and ALWAYS check the last roll on a new machine...if its a big winner, skip it.

flaminio: I recall seeing billboards in Nevada advertising slots with a 95% payback -- as if this is some kind of good thing. So, on average, for every dollar you put in you get 95c back. Sign me up!

compared to the 89% (and some cases lower) payback at many other places.

Never tell me the odds!

A Leaf in Fall: I've won over $300 on my limited experience with slot machines. Nickel slots, and move to the next machine right after you win anything more than $5.

Oh, and ALWAYS check the last roll on a new machine...if its a big winner, skip it.

That's not how probability works

Baryogenesis: That's not how probability works

Nope. On the flip side though, when it comes to banks of networked slot machines, how confident are you that the probability is uniform? I guess the gaming commissions might demand it, but otherwise I wouldn't be surprised if they did things like trying to get the jackpots to hit most often when there were more people around to hear it, "oh, I hear people winning all around me! *pull*"

flaminio: I recall seeing billboards in Nevada advertising slots with a 95% payback -- as if this is some kind of good thing. So, on average, for every dollar you put in you get 95c back. Sign me up!

Having worked at a casino for a while, I can tell you that's actually pretty high.

The slot tech for our little po-dunk casino was a pretty neat guy, always willing to tell you about stuff if you asked (and if he was allowed). I watched him set up a slot machine once from the point where it had been plugged in to where it was ready to go. A few things jumped out at me:

1) Setup is, literally, a bunch of gigantic button menus with really obvious text as to what can be done. Your 8-year-old child could set up a slot machine. Not fix, but definitely set up.

2) Setup is also a really quick process if you know what you're doing. Most of the time the guy spent was doing double-checking and operational tests, because he was VERY thorough. If you skipped all of that I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing could be done in under 3 minutes.

3) The first menu you get is the one that sets the payout percentage. That is to say, the menu that determines how much money goes out of the slot machine compared to how much goes in. Slot machines aren't run on random chance, they're run on set statistical chance. The reason why this is important is that it means that every individual slot machine in the casino makes a profit, without exception. The only way you can "win big" is if someone (or more than one) has lost a slightly larger amount of money in the machine previously.

4) Apparently, the most common (at our casino anyway) payout percentage was 93.74%. Casinos are allowed to call a slot machine "high payout" if this is raised to something like 93.99% (and I think it may even be lower than that).


So, yeah, there's no way to win at slot machines, unless you count the free drinks you get for playing them over and over a "win".

/And yes, I do
//Mmm, well-brand whiskey

ProfessorOhki: Baryogenesis: That's not how probability works

Nope. On the flip side though, when it comes to banks of networked slot machines, how confident are you that the probability is uniform? I guess the gaming commissions might demand it, but otherwise I wouldn't be surprised if they did things like trying to get the jackpots to hit most often when there were more people around to hear it, "oh, I hear people winning all around me! *pull*"

While I'm not entirely certain on the specifics and the exceptions, I know that generally slot machines aren't allowed to "network" their chance of payout on anything except for system-wide jackpots, e.g. Megabucks.

There may be exceptions to that which can be exploited, I'm not certain. I do know that none of the machines in my little slice of hell had networked payout chances.

A Leaf in Fall: I've won over $300 on my limited experience with slot machines. Nickel slots, and move to the next machine right after you win anything more than $5.

Oh, and ALWAYS check the last roll on a new machine...if its a big winner, skip it.

Casinos love superstitious people like this.
Legally every pull of the handle must have the same odds.

flaminio: I recall seeing billboards in Nevada advertising slots with a 95% payback -- as if this is some kind of good thing. So, on average, for every dollar you put in you get 95c back. Sign me up!

To be fair, viewed as entertainment instead of as an actual profit-making venture, slots are probably cheaper than most.

I mean, what, a quarter a pull, maybe one pull every 30 seconds tops, you're talking about putting in 30$/hour. With a .95 average return, that's 1.50$/hr over a sufficiently long period.

Personally, I find slots boring as all hell, but attempting to take the position of an outsider it's no less mentally stimulating than renting "Predator 2" and having a bag of microwave popcorn, which costs about 4$/hour.

When you gamble, you're only trying to "beat the game" to the extent that that's the ostensible goal of your competitive entertainment. Claiming that gambling is a scam because you don't usually actually come out with a positive balance is like claiming that Candyland is a scam because you lose 75% of the time (or 100*(1-1/n)% of the time where n is the number of players). Actually winning is a secondary concern to the entertainment value, it's the excitement of the competition and the probability of loss that make it fun. If it was profitable on average, what would be the damned point?

gimlet: A Leaf in Fall: I've won over $300 on my limited experience with slot machines. Nickel slots, and move to the next machine right after you win anything more than $5.

Oh, and ALWAYS check the last roll on a new machine...if its a big winner, skip it.

Casinos love superstitious people like this.
Legally every pull of the handle must have the same odds.

Yes, but that is only measured over a certain period. There's enough loopholes in it that when you set a machine to have a specific payout percentage, it will have paid out exactly that amount when you look at it over the course of a year.

I THINK that Casinos in New Mexico are required to post payout odds on the machine. At least they all seem to have innocent looking stickers somewhere that show some payout odds.

Some show very high payout odds, some show shockingly low payout odds.

I've never done any experiments with that data, I'm too busy playing blackjack and craps.

Jim_Callahan: flaminio: I recall seeing billboards in Nevada advertising slots with a 95% payback -- as if this is some kind of good thing. So, on average, for every dollar you put in you get 95c back. Sign me up!

To be fair, viewed as entertainment instead of as an actual profit-making venture, slots are probably cheaper than most.

I mean, what, a quarter a pull, maybe one pull every 30 seconds tops, you're talking about putting in 30$/hour. With a .95 average return, that's 1.50$/hr over a sufficiently long period.

Personally, I find slots boring as all hell, but attempting to take the position of an outsider it's no less mentally stimulating than renting "Predator 2" and having a bag of microwave popcorn, which costs about 4$/hour.

When you gamble, you're only trying to "beat the game" to the extent that that's the ostensible goal of your competitive entertainment. Claiming that gambling is a scam because you don't usually actually come out with a positive balance is like claiming that Candyland is a scam because you lose 75% of the time (or 100*(1-1/n)% of the time where n is the number of players). Actually winning is a secondary concern to the entertainment value, it's the excitement of the competition and the probability of loss that make it fun. If it was profitable on average, what would be the damned point?

LOL quarter a pull!!

I laugh at your insanity.

We have play tables that one place asked for that allow $250 per pull table.

Jim_Callahan: flaminio: I recall seeing billboards in Nevada advertising slots with a 95% payback -- as if this is some kind of good thing. So, on average, for every dollar you put in you get 95c back. Sign me up!

To be fair, viewed as entertainment instead of as an actual profit-making venture, slots are probably cheaper than most.

I mean, what, a quarter a pull, maybe one pull every 30 seconds tops, you're talking about putting in 30$/hour. With a .95 average return, that's 1.50$/hr over a sufficiently long period.

Personally, I find slots boring as all hell, but attempting to take the position of an outsider it's no less mentally stimulating than renting "Predator 2" and having a bag of microwave popcorn, which costs about 4$/hour.

When you gamble, you're only trying to "beat the game" to the extent that that's the ostensible goal of your competitive entertainment. Claiming that gambling is a scam because you don't usually actually come out with a positive balance is like claiming that Candyland is a scam because you lose 75% of the time (or 100*(1-1/n)% of the time where n is the number of players). Actually winning is a secondary concern to the entertainment value, it's the excitement of the competition and the probability of loss that make it fun. If it was profitable on average, what would be the damned point?

*claps* Thank you, someone who gets it.

You are what we'd call a "responsible gambler" (assuming you gamble). You're not doing it to "win big", you're doing it because it's a fun way to kill time. If you go into it with that mindset then the casino gets your money, you have a good time (and maybe a comp'd beer or two) and everyone goes away happy.

There are still casinos who deliberately discourage that sort of mindset, but they're dwindling. Casinos have found out that if you give people the unrealistic expecation of a win, you tend to get sued. Of course the lawsuits never win, but the bad PR tends to drive down business. The push now is "come play and have fun! Look at all these shiny machines! Oo, we even offer free food (if you sign up for our club card so we can send you spam)."

kvinesknows: LOL quarter a pull!!

I laugh at your insanity.

We have play tables that one place asked for that allow $250 per pull table.

Fun fact: all of the casinos in Reno have some sort of "Diamond Club" or equivalent, which you can only be inducted into by spending more than one million dollars in a month at the casino.

Now, that figure is gross spending, not net, but a million dollars in a month? Good god.

Also, a large number of our state's prostitutes (not a majority, but a signficant number) are in those clubs. Yikes.

Lukeonia1: This guy did it.

He made it sound like fun, but I don't think I'd want to spend $1000 trying to duplicate his results.

Yeh, take out the jackpot (roughly half of his 'winnings) and he wouldn't be quite so chipper, I suspect.

yukichigai:
Yes, but that is only measured over a certain period. There's enough loopholes in it that when you set a machine to have a specific payout percentage, it will have paid out exactly that amount when you look at it over the course of a year.

That's not a loophole, that's the law of averages. Literally, it states "The actual fraction of a certain outcome to the total number of outcomes will approach the probability of said outcomes as the number of tests approaches infinity".

There is further math that will give you roughly the number of tests required to get within certain variances, and it's actually a relatively small number to hit almost exactly your probability with something like 97% confidence for most slot setups. Like, a couple hundred pulls. So the machines will almost certainly hit their average payout within a couple of hours without any sort of mechanical manipulation of the individual events. To the point where, without any shennanigans whatsoever, the daily count for a moderately used machine will be within pennies of the average return.

The idea that the law of averages has to result from something like the machines being programmed to pay out less after a large payout is one of the inherent stupidities of human nature that we basically have to beat out of the damned undergrads with a stick every year.

Seriously, quit it.

yukichigai: kvinesknows: LOL quarter a pull!!

I laugh at your insanity.

We have play tables that one place asked for that allow $250 per pull table.

Fun fact: all of the casinos in Reno have some sort of "Diamond Club" or equivalent, which you can only be inducted into by spending more than one million dollars in a month at the casino.

Now, that figure is gross spending, not net, but a million dollars in a month? Good god.

Also, a large number of our state's prostitutes (not a majority, but a signficant number) are in those clubs. Yikes.


yeah for the most part thats not slot machines though, those are usually things like poker, dice, Smash Mouth and such

Lukeonia1: GoodyearPimp: Yeh, take out the jackpot (roughly half of his 'winnings) and he wouldn't be quite so chipper, I suspect.

Exactly. He pulled 500 times; I wonder what the odds were of winning that $720 on any given pull.

you know who else pulled 500 times?

http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5875928&hl=Man-says-that-penis-enlar g er-he-purchased-did-not-work-as-promised-Even-after-500-hours-of-use

Jim_Callahan: yukichigai:
Yes, but that is only measured over a certain period. There's enough loopholes in it that when you set a machine to have a specific payout percentage, it will have paid out exactly that amount when you look at it over the course of a year.

That's not a loophole, that's the law of averages. Literally, it states "The actual fraction of a certain outcome to the total number of outcomes will approach the probability of said outcomes as the number of tests approaches infinity".

There is further math that will give you roughly the number of tests required to get within certain variances, and it's actually a relatively small number to hit almost exactly your probability with something like 97% confidence for most slot setups. Like, a couple hundred pulls. So the machines will almost certainly hit their average payout within a couple of hours without any sort of mechanical manipulation of the individual events. To the point where, without any shennanigans whatsoever, the daily count for a moderately used machine will be within pennies of the average return.

The idea that the law of averages has to result from something like the machines being programmed to pay out less after a large payout is one of the inherent stupidities of human nature that we basically have to beat out of the damned undergrads with a stick every year.

Seriously, quit it.

Assuming you're a mathematician or something, my bad. I'm not, so meh.

It would probably help if the slot machines were set up internally to phrase it as "chance of win" instead of "payout percentage". It seems to imply a discreet distinction. One which my slot tech friend was a believer in.

Of course, that's assuming that there really isn't some kind of adjustment that can be made periodically and automatically. Regardless of how close the figures would average out for the year, I would not put it past the Gambling industry to take steps to ensure the figures are exact if it's at all possible.

You need to walk away from the machine once you get that hit. Last time I was in Vegas I played the dollar slots, buck a shot. I'd be down $10 and then get a $50 pay out. I'd move to the next machine repeating the process. Was up about $200 the first day then put it all back going places my girlfriend hasn't seen on the strip.

kvinesknows: yukichigai: kvinesknows: LOL quarter a pull!!

I laugh at your insanity.

We have play tables that one place asked for that allow $250 per pull table.

Fun fact: all of the casinos in Reno have some sort of "Diamond Club" or equivalent, which you can only be inducted into by spending more than one million dollars in a month at the casino.

Now, that figure is gross spending, not net, but a million dollars in a month? Good god.

Also, a large number of our state's prostitutes (not a majority, but a signficant number) are in those clubs. Yikes.


yeah for the most part thats not slot machines though, those are usually things like poker, dice, Smash Mouth and such

I assume you refer to "Smash Mouth" as some sort of game where you pay exhorbitant fees to shoot members of said band with paintballs in the sensitive areas?

Anyway, I know of at least two ladies of the evening who have hit that mark (the million a month, not Smash Mouth) on almost nothing but slots. The point I was trying to make, which I was an idiot and didn't, is that there's a fairly large group of people who will play high-limit slots, where it's $500+ per credit. I'm not talking just traditional three-reel slots either; one of the casinos in one of the smaller nearby towns had a 5-reel "penny machine" that offered as much as $100/credit, with 30 lines and a maximum bet of 10 credits per line. That's $30,000 per spin.

Of course the machine isn't there anymore. Might be because nobody was that insane. I can hope anyway.

Jim_Callahan: Claiming that gambling is a scam because you don't usually actually come out with a positive balance is like claiming that Candyland is a scam because you lose 75% of the time

Easy for you to say, you aren't stuck in MOLASSES FARKIN' SWAMP!

*flips board over and walks away*

FARK YOU!

theorellior: Jim_Callahan: The idea that the law of averages has to result from something like the machines being programmed to pay out less after a large payout is one of the inherent stupidities of human nature that we basically have to beat out of the damned undergrads with a stick every year.

Thinking that casinos are going to let their machines run according to a textbook statistics exercise is a naïve misconception that should be beaten out of you with a pool cue.

They will if the law says they have to. Gambling laws in Nevada are tough. Of course, so are the casino lobbyists.

I give it a 50/50 shot that there's some loophole the casinos could exploit. I honestly just don't know.

Big Beef Burrito: Jim_Callahan: Claiming that gambling is a scam because you don't usually actually come out with a positive balance is like claiming that Candyland is a scam because you lose 75% of the time

Easy for you to say, you aren't stuck in MOLASSES FARKIN' SWAMP!

*flips board over and walks away*

FARK YOU!

This is eerily reminiscent (did I spell that right?) of about a dozen people I had to "help out" of the casino when I was employed there.

That being said, it's also funny. A+, would lawl again.

yukichigai: kvinesknows: yukichigai: kvinesknows: LOL quarter a pull!!

I laugh at your insanity.

We have play tables that one place asked for that allow $250 per pull table.

Fun fact: all of the casinos in Reno have some sort of "Diamond Club" or equivalent, which you can only be inducted into by spending more than one million dollars in a month at the casino.

Now, that figure is gross spending, not net, but a million dollars in a month? Good god.

Also, a large number of our state's prostitutes (not a majority, but a signficant number) are in those clubs. Yikes.


yeah for the most part thats not slot machines though, those are usually things like poker, dice, Smash Mouth and such

I assume you refer to "Smash Mouth" as some sort of game where you pay exhorbitant fees to shoot members of said band with paintballs in the sensitive areas?

Anyway, I know of at least two ladies of the evening who have hit that mark (the million a month, not Smash Mouth) on almost nothing but slots. The point I was trying to make, which I was an idiot and didn't, is that there's a fairly large group of people who will play high-limit slots, where it's $500+ per credit. I'm not talking just traditional three-reel slots either; one of the casinos in one of the smaller nearby towns had a 5-reel "penny machine" that offered as much as $100/credit, with 30 lines and a maximum bet of 10 credits per line. That's $30,000 per spin.

Of course the machine isn't there anymore. Might be because nobody was that insane. I can hope anyway.

heh referring to rat race

but yeah I am just basing it off of our pay tables. I can totally see some casinos going all crazy.. when you are a Billionaire why play for $1000s right?

BizarreMan: yukichigai:

3) The first menu you get is the one that sets the payout percentage. That is to say, the menu that determines how much money goes out of the slot machine compared to how much goes in. Slot machines aren't run on random chance, they're run on set statistical chance. The reason why this is important is that it means that every individual slot machine in the casino makes a profit, without exception. The only way you can "win big" is if someone (or more than one) has lost a slightly larger amount of money in the machine previously.

Wrong wrong wrong and more wrong. Slot machines can and do lose money. Of course once they start sucking (as far as the casino is concerned) they can get pulled off the floor fast, but the very first spin on a brand new on the floor slot machine can be a winner.

/22 years casino IT experience plus slot analysis

That's a bit confusing. I mean, how can a machine lose money consistently even if that percentage just applies to the chance of a win? And more to the point, why would swapping it out make a difference, barring some kind of machine error?

Of course, the answer could be "because it makes the casino bosses feel better", which is a perfectly valid answer.

But, I'm always hearing people bragging about their big paydays at the casino. Are you saying they aren't telling me about the half a dozen times they blew their checks first?

Albinoman: But, I'm always hearing people bragging about their big paydays at the casino. Are you saying they aren't telling me about the half a dozen times they blew their checks first?

I won $1,000 playing nickel slots (It was really more like playing quarter slots because it was a Monopoly themed machine and playing just one line is boring) last year.

Gave it all back at the craps tables. Damn that was a lot of fun!

Casinos are in it to make money? OMG.

Prefer to help my own odds, so I stay away from slots. Rather play something like low-limit poker anyway, it's a lot more fun for me and is just as effective at passing the time, only with more people involved. If I lose, as someone stated above I paid for entertainment.

Most of the slot players I've come across are either people just there to sit, push buttons, and drool because they're trying kill time...or waiting for time to kill them. Either way, not generally a fun bunch. They don't seem to expect a big payout either which way.

Slots are for chumps. If you win a big payoff at the casino and the casino says that the slot wasn't ready to pay out, you get zip, zero, nada.

How does a computer have a mechanical malfunction?

Rigged.

All electronic games are rigged.

But if you want to watch something funny, watch face up BlackJack. There was a casino here that played it. It was the most popular game too.

The dealer would deal all cards face up. If he had a 20 and you had a 19, you would hit hoping for a 2. The psychology was shocking as people who would have normally stood would hit in a desperate attempt to beat the dealer at the sacrifice of the people down stream.

Me? I avoid the slots.

Though I was once at a casino with some co-workers for a lunch. One of them was a preacher that had never stepped in a casino or gambled in his life. While we were waiting for a woman to come back from the restroom, he put $3 in a slot and won $900. I told him to quit while he was ahead. He did and his church got new hymnals that month.

Beginner's luck - it exists.

I tried one for the first time this past summer at the local exhibition. After plugging about $40 into it I won $850. Bouyed by my luck, I went out later that night and turned $100 of those winnings into another $450.

Not a damn penny in winnings since.

My plan now is to stay away long enough to re-qualify as a "beginner", much like a born-again virgin.

/What? That's how it works, isn't it?

BizarreMan: yukichigai:
A smart slot manager will keep a close eye on the floor so that when the play on a machine drops to the point that it's not getting enough play it gets pulled off and a new theme goes on in it's place.

Can they at least give them volume control so patrons don't hear "WHEEL!!!!!! OF!!!!! FORTUNE!!!!" every time someone walks past 'em on the way to take a leak?
/Please?
//No it's not all about me, but I'm sure there are a few poeple named Benjamin who are peeved at this too.

According to both articles:

Americans spend more than $1 billion per day on slot machines! and The New York Times reporting that Americans drop more than $1 billion a day into slot machines

According to the video:

Last year, Nevada casinos made nearly 6.7 billion dollars on slot machines alone.

Nevada slot machines account for only 2% of revenue?

Theres a HUGE Indian casino about a mile from my house. And from what I've seen I'm grateful its there, as it keeps a LOT of stupid people off the streets.

SouthernManDunWrong: The psychology was shocking as people who would have normally stood would hit in a desperate attempt to beat the dealer at the sacrifice of the people down stream.

What's shocking is that anyone thinks that's how probability works. Hitting or standing will not affect the statistical outcome for a downstream player. Sure, they'll remember you for the time you got their face card, but they won't remember the time you saved them by taking that face card. When people get mad at someone for taking or not taking a card, they're proving themselves idiots.

/former professional blackjack player

yukichigai: Jim_Callahan: flaminio: I recall seeing billboards in Nevada advertising slots with a 95% payback -- as if this is some kind of good thing. So, on average, for every dollar you put in you get 95c back. Sign me up!

To be fair, viewed as entertainment instead of as an actual profit-making venture, slots are probably cheaper than most.

I mean, what, a quarter a pull, maybe one pull every 30 seconds tops, you're talking about putting in 30$/hour. With a .95 average return, that's 1.50$/hr over a sufficiently long period.

Personally, I find slots boring as all hell, but attempting to take the position of an outsider it's no less mentally stimulating than renting "Predator 2" and having a bag of microwave popcorn, which costs about 4$/hour.

When you gamble, you're only trying to "beat the game" to the extent that that's the ostensible goal of your competitive entertainment. Claiming that gambling is a scam because you don't usually actually come out with a positive balance is like claiming that Candyland is a scam because you lose 75% of the time (or 100*(1-1/n)% of the time where n is the number of players). Actually winning is a secondary concern to the entertainment value, it's the excitement of the competition and the probability of loss that make it fun. If it was profitable on average, what would be the damned point?

*claps* Thank you, someone who gets it.

You are what we'd call a "responsible gambler" (assuming you gamble). You're not doing it to "win big", you're doing it because it's a fun way to kill time. If you go into it with that mindset then the casino gets your money, you have a good time (and maybe a comp'd beer or two) and everyone goes away happy.

There are still casinos who deliberately discourage that sort of mindset, but they're dwindling. Casinos have found out that if you give people the unrealistic expecation of a win, you tend to get sued. Of course the lawsuits never win, but the bad PR tends to drive down business. The push now is "come play and have fun! Look at all these shiny machines! Oo, we even offer free food (if you sign up for our club card so we can send you spam)."

Except, that the everything in a Casino is designed to take as much of your money as possible....No windows, no clocks, mazes of tables/games...everything in the casino is designed to keep you betting.

People only go there becuase they think they might win. There are hundreds of free online casino software games; you could even set them up on a giant HDTV with surround sound...so what do casinos offer? a dimly lit, smoke filled room with old people, bright carpets and funny smells?

/The casino is not your friend. They won't loan you $20 when you're broke, they don't care if you just lost your rent.
//Don't ever forget this fact
///I'm not saying don't go, just realize what your up against

So... are slot machines 100% random in their spins, granting equal chances no matter which one you play or at what time?

Or are they set to not allow several huge wins in a row, or allow multiple to all get the big jackpot around the same time, or make you lose X amount of times in a set amount of time before allowing a win (like crane games)?

Oh and Candyland IS a scam. At least with dice you can practice rolling a 6. No such luck with shuffled cards!

LOL.. on teh "money Drop" show

they had a question. which one do adults spend more money on in one year

the three choices were.

Casino
Movies
Gaming


The morons actually put most of their money on Movies.

yeah really.. people are that out of touch that they think MOVIES take in more money then gambling.

overlord: According to both articles:

Americans spend more than $1 billion per day on slot machines! and The New York Times reporting that Americans drop more than $1 billion a day into slot machines

According to the video:

Last year, Nevada casinos made nearly 6.7 billion dollars on slot machines alone.

Nevada slot machines account for only 2% of revenue?

There are slot machines all over the US.