FARK.com: (5869103) NFL Playoffs: Reports Of The Death Of The 4-3 Defense Have Been Greatly Exaggerated

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(Windy City Gridiron)		NFL Playoffs: Reports Of The Death Of The 4-3 Defense Have Been Greatly Exaggerated (windycitygridiron.com)		56
		More: Interesting, NFL playoffs, NFL, DeMarcus Ware, Mike Ditka, sacks, OLB, NFC, winning percentage

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mr_a		2011-01-06 12:37:57 PM

The 4-3 dead? Just ask this guy.

ambassador_ahab		2011-01-06 01:02:02 PM

The Colts usually line up in the 4-3.

rumpelstiltskin		2011-01-06 01:08:57 PM

Is he claiming that a 4-3 defense tries to keep the opponent's offense on the field, thereby increasing the chances of a turnover?

Bob Dolemite		2011-01-06 01:10:06 PM

the 3-4 is a faster defense that relies on good depth at the linebacker position.

indianapolis may as well run a 2-5. their ends could easily adjust to linebacker.

ambassador_ahab		2011-01-06 01:10:13 PM

rumpelstiltskin: Is he claiming that a 4-3 defense tries to keep the opponent's offense on the field, thereby increasing the chances of a turnover?

I can't tell, the article is poorly written.

Slives		2011-01-06 01:11:09 PM

Silly me, not being a real football coach and all...

But I would think you would design and implement your defense on what makes the best use of the players you have.

Besides, what difference does it really make? You start in the 3-4 and one of the DB's sneaks up to the line just before the ball is snapped and bingo, it is 4-3 defense.

ambassador_ahab		2011-01-06 01:11:55 PM

Bob Dolemite: indianapolis may as well run a 2-5. their ends could easily adjust to linebacker

Yes and no. I mean, Dungy brought the Tampa-2 scheme with him, and though they don't use it exclusively, they still try to favor speed and accurate tackling over power.

Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis make a killer pass-rush duo though.

ihatedumbpeople		2011-01-06 01:13:08 PM

If i'm not mistaken, the top 3 scoring defenses in the league (Pitt 14.5ppg, GB 15ppg, Baltimore 16.9) use the 3-4.

Orgasmatron138		2011-01-06 01:14:58 PM

Having a scheme and having the right players for it is more important than what the scheme is.

Coach_J		2011-01-06 01:16:52 PM

With today's speed at the linebacker and typically at the D-end position and the prevalent use of zone blitzes, the difference between a 4-3 to a 3-4 is what is widely exaggerated these days.

What's more meaningful to talk about and discuss is line gap techniques and floating zone secondary coverages, but most sportswriters/bloggers, etc. wouldn't know the difference between an Single or a Double A gap blitz if it bit them in the ass.

And yes, I'm looking at you Peter King.

I Said		2011-01-06 01:18:20 PM

Slives: Silly me, not being a real football coach and all...

But I would think you would design and implement your defense on what makes the best use of the players you have.

Besides, what difference does it really make? You start in the 3-4 and one of the DB's sneaks up to the line just before the ball is snapped and bingo, it is 4-3 defense.

Generally if you run a 3-4 you're trying to confuse the qb and blockers more with different coverage schemes, because they won't know where the 4th rusher will come from, or if there will be one at all. It's also a speed vs power question.

But this is really more about your capabilities as a team too, since the 3-4 requires exactly what Bob Dolemite said

Killer Cars		2011-01-06 01:18:27 PM

ambassador_ahab: Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis make a killer pass-rush duo though.

If the best part of your defense are your lineman, then a 4-3 defense makes sense. Allow them to the rush the QB with minimal blitzing help and have the rest cover downfield.

Yeah, the 3-4 alignment can draw up some "exotic" blitzes, but it's also hides a lack of a natural pass rusher up front for some teams that use it.

Coach_J		2011-01-06 01:21:10 PM

ambassador_ahab: Bob Dolemite: indianapolis may as well run a 2-5. their ends could easily adjust to linebacker

Yes and no. I mean, Dungy brought the Tampa-2 scheme with him, and though they don't use it exclusively, they still try to favor speed and accurate tackling over power.

Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis make a killer pass-rush duo though.

Tampa-2 (cover-2) is a secondary coverage scheme that can and is routinely run with a 3-4 or a 4-3...both can and do set the middle LB back (the Shelton Quarles position) and play the low middle.

They are mutually exclusive and have nothing to do with each other. Understand that concept and you've immediately become smarter than 85% of all football writers who make the same mistake over and over and over again.

tophergartman		2011-01-06 01:26:33 PM

"When you drive to Soldier Field you have to pay a toll,
for cripes sake, they only won one lousy Super Bowl.

They make fun of Wisconsin, but we don't get upset,
where do you think that they're all headed every chance they get?

da Bears Still Suck, da Bears Still Suck . . . "

mikaloyd		2011-01-06 01:34:11 PM

Strange things are a foot in the playoffs.

~Rex Ryan

ambassador_ahab		2011-01-06 01:39:09 PM

Coach_J: They are mutually exclusive and have nothing to do with each other.

I get you are talking about the secondary coverage, but what specifically is "mutually exclusive"?

ambassador_ahab		2011-01-06 01:40:41 PM

mikaloyd: Strange things are a foot in the playoffs.

~Rex Ryan

Win.

bingethinker		2011-01-06 01:47:49 PM

Slives

Silly me, not being a real football coach and all...

But I would think you would design and implement your defense on what makes the best use of the players you have.

This makes you smarter than a few NFL head coaches. They try to switch to the 3-4 without the right personnel, and just end up wasting the talents of the guys they have.

ihatedumbpeople		2011-01-06 01:54:51 PM

bingethinker: Slives

Silly me, not being a real football coach and all...

But I would think you would design and implement your defense on what makes the best use of the players you have.

This makes you smarter than a few NFL head coaches. They try to switch to the 3-4 without the right personnel, and just end up wasting the talents of the guys they have.

Ok Mr. Haynesworth...we know your Fark handle now.

dragonchild		2011-01-06 02:06:22 PM

ambassador_ahab: The Colts usually line up in the 4-3.

How is this evidence that the 4-3 is not dead?

You know what killed the 4-3? Tecmo Super Bowl.

Coach_J: With today's speed at the linebacker and typically at the D-end position and the prevalent use of zone blitzes, the difference between a 4-3 to a 3-4 is what is widely exaggerated these days.

It was never anything but a personnel decision to begin with. If you're loaded with D-linemen and thin on linebackers you'll challenge the line of scrimmage with a 4-3. If you have only one or two good linemen and a decent crop of linebackers you'll use a 3-4. Alternatively, if you have a dominating nose tackle it makes sense to use a 3-4, etc.

As for all those "clever" teams making all sorts of line shifts and exotic schemes? Again, personnel. It's typically an injury-depleted or otherwise desperate team full of "tweener" guys who are undersized for linemen yet too slow to be good linebackers so confusion is their only weapon. Alternatively, a team with a fast end or a powerful linebacker -- first team All-Pro talent -- can shift the formation from 3-4 to 4-3 at will so it makes perfect sense to take advantage.

RickyWilliams'sBong		2011-01-06 02:12:06 PM

rumpelstiltskin: Is he claiming that a 4-3 defense tries to keep the opponent's offense on the field, thereby increasing the chances of a turnover?

No, he's talking about Cover 2. The idea is to adjust to the NFL becoming more passing-oriented and force QBs to be precise through long drives. Most teams will struggle with that.

A 3-4 helps with that, too. Problem is you really need a good NT for a 3-4, and there aren't enough true NTs for everybody to go 3-4. So why the author thinks the 4-3 would go away when many teams don't have the personnel for a 3-4 puzzles me

cicdle		2011-01-06 02:14:05 PM

If you watch a team like Steelers on D, you will see that formation is purely situational. You will see anywhere from 0 to 5 guys with their hands down in none goal line formations. They are supposed to be a 3-4 team, but that only means they officially list 3 D-lineman and 4 linebackers on the starting roster.

In the modern NFL the defense will change formations as often as offensives do.

Overfiend		2011-01-06 02:23:05 PM

tophergartman: "When you drive to Soldier Field you have to pay a toll,
for cripes sake, they only won one lousy Super Bowl.

They make fun of Wisconsin, but we don't get upset,
where do you think that they're all headed every chance they get?

da Bears Still Suck, da Bears Still Suck . . . "

Full of win!! You sir are awarded one internets. Congrats!

The Bears both suck and swallow.

hophead929		2011-01-06 02:31:25 PM

Slives: Besides, what difference does it really make? You start in the 3-4 and one of the DB's sneaks up to the line just before the ball is snapped and bingo, it is 4-3 defense.

Umm, no. DBs are not part of the front seven, it would change a 3-4-4 to a 4-4-3 or 3-5-3 depending on where the DB is in the box. You probably meant LB though.

Most 3-4 defenses look more like 5-2 since the two OLBs are on the line of scrimmage.

TheAnvil		2011-01-06 02:33:38 PM

dragonchild: It was never anything but a personnel decision to begin with. If you're loaded with D-linemen and thin on linebackers you'll challenge the line of scrimmage with a 4-3. If you have only one or two good linemen and a decent crop of linebackers you'll use a 3-4. Alternatively, if you have a dominating nose tackle it makes sense to use a 3-4, etc.

There's a philosphical difference as well. In a 3-4 the NT and DEs try to lock up the O-line for the LBs to make plays. The defensive line players in a 3-4 never have great individual stats, even though a nose tackle who can draw a double team every play is very rare and valuable. These guys need long arms and good size.

In a 4-3 the DTs and DEs try to penetrate the line and get into the background. They have better stats as far as TFLs and sacks, which helps when you negotiate your next contract. They need to be quicker. Aggressive interior d-linemen want to play in a 4-3.

GQueue		2011-01-06 02:50:23 PM

RickyWilliams'sBong: So why the author thinks the 4-3 would go away when many teams don't have the personnel for a 3-4 puzzles me

That hasn't stopped teams from switching to the 3-4 anyway.

dragonchild		2011-01-06 02:50:30 PM

TheAnvil: There's a philosphical difference as well. In a 3-4 the NT and DEs try to lock up the O-line for the LBs to make plays. The defensive line players in a 3-4 never have great individual stats, even though a nose tackle who can draw a double team every play is very rare and valuable. These guys need long arms and good size.

In a 4-3 the DTs and DEs try to penetrate the line and get into the background. They have better stats as far as TFLs and sacks, which helps when you negotiate your next contract. They need to be quicker. Aggressive interior d-linemen want to play in a 4-3.

Any philosophical issue is driven by personnel. If your D-line is quick, you use a 4-3. If your D-line is big, you use a 3-4. If your D-line is big AND quick, you can use either at will and will probably make the playoffs. If your D-line is neither, you're the Denver Broncos.

sotua		2011-01-06 02:55:31 PM

I am a football newbie, and am looking for something like "football for not-so-dummies". Most football for beginners resources you find on the web are about "downs and yards, scoring, etc", which is knowledge that I do have. I would like something a little deeper, to understand discussions like this one. When you guys go all blitz/rush/3-4/etc I find I barely understand what's going on.

Any links or advice will be appreciated. TIA.

jake3988		2011-01-06 03:03:28 PM

3-4 nor 4-3 is automatically better, you need a good defensive coordinator like Dick Lebeau to pull it off year after year.

Bleyo		2011-01-06 03:06:33 PM

John Nash		2011-01-06 03:11:24 PM

Bleyo: I learned all of this from Madden games.

/too pretty to actually play football

It may sound funny to some, but Madden really does teach you a lot about football.

Also, NFL Matchup is a great learning tool, though there you'll learn more about how teams dictate matchups and how critical it is to win a 1-on-1 battle for a play to be succesful.

wandererobtm101		2011-01-06 03:11:40 PM

dragonchild		2011-01-06 03:12:06 PM

RickyWilliams'sBong: So why the author thinks the 4-3 would go away when many teams don't have the personnel for a 3-4 puzzles me

Not the author, but there's a small misconception that you need a dominating nose tackle to use the 3-4 at all. Yes and no. The 3-4's main strength is the extra linebacker's versatility against the pass (he can fill a seam, pass rush or drop into coverage) while the DL is expected to keep the running game "honest". In this form, it's appealing against today's pass-happy offenses but as others have stated, it puts immense physical pressure on the D-line, especially the NT. If your NT can't hold his own against two linemen your line will be pushed back on run plays and can't pressure the QB on pass plays; that's a sure way to lose a game. An offense that consistently gets at least four yards per carry and no sacks is in complete control of the game.

But that's a power-based 3-4, and the source of this "3-4 = All-Pro NT" misconception. There is also a speed-based 3-4. This basically expects the D-line to do not much more than bottle up the center and guards, relying on fast, sure-tackling, "Tampa 2" style linebackers to react to the play. Basically, the 3-4 works with undersized linemen if your linebackers are fast enough to burst through the seams before the RB does. You don't need size to make this work, but you need linebackers who are smart AND fast, because there's no time to communicate -- they need to each individually understand their assignments and react to each other or they'll leave a HUGE hole in coverage. It's a high-risk, high-return strategy because fast linebackers can also rack up sacks (a misread run play is basically just a blitz), but against a good line it's VERY vulnerable to the play action. Also, while you don't need an All-Pro lineman to make it work, you can't afford to have an idiot on your roster either.

Jubeebee		2011-01-06 03:15:08 PM

sotua: I am a football newbie, and am looking for something like "football for not-so-dummies". Most football for beginners resources you find on the web are about "downs and yards, scoring, etc", which is knowledge that I do have. I would like something a little deeper, to understand discussions like this one. When you guys go all blitz/rush/3-4/etc I find I barely understand what's going on.

Any links or advice will be appreciated. TIA.

Oooh, you just called out the Fark Keyboard Coaches. I'll start.

The difference between a 3-4 and a 4-3 is the number of down linemen. A 3-4 will have 3 guys on the line of scrimmage with their hand(s) on the ground, a 4-3 will have 4. Linebackers will be standing up, and may be on the line of scrimmage or a few yards back.

There are 3 linebackers in a 4-3:
Strong side LB: lines up roughly on the same half of the field as the tight end on offense. The center on offense defines the middle of the field in this case.
Middle LB: lines up in the middle of the field.
Weak side LB: lines up roughly on the half of the field that does not have a tight end.

There are 4 linebackers in a 3-4:
Two inside linebackers: line up roughly in the middle of the field.
Two outside linebackers: line up on the outside edges of the line of scrimmage.

A blitz is when you have players who are not down linemen charging the line of scrimmage instead of playing coverage. There are run blitzes, which are designed to plug holes through which a running back can run, and pass blitzes, which are designed to get to the quarterback before he can throw.

The Tampa-2/Cover-2 is a zone coverage scheme used by the linebackers and defensive backs that features two safeties whose primary job is to prevent deep pass plays. It relies on using the down linemen to apply pressure to the quarterback, particularly a "three-technique" defensive tackle who can prevent the QB from stepping up to avoid the defensive ends. It also relies heavily on a middle linebacker who can cover intermediate (8-15yd) passes over the middle of the field. It works well with small, fast defensive players, and against teams that rely on big plays. It is weak with large, powerful defensive players, and against teams that can complete short, quick release passes.

And I'm spent.

sotua		2011-01-06 03:28:34 PM

wandererobtm101: sotua: I am a football newbie, and am looking for something like "football for not-so-dummies". Most football for beginners resources you find on the web are about "downs and yards, scoring, etc", which is knowledge that I do have. I would like something a little deeper, to understand discussions like this one. When you guys go all blitz/rush/3-4/etc I find I barely understand what's going on.

Any links or advice will be appreciated. TIA.

Play Madden. Wikipedia has some ok information as well. For example: Link (new window)

Box at the bottom has links to lots of other plays, formations, stategy, etc.

Thanks for the wiki link.

As for playing Madden, let's say I don't have spare time to play any video games, just watching real football games requires an explicit effort in time-management.

RickyWilliams'sBong		2011-01-06 03:45:34 PM

dragonchild: RickyWilliams'sBong: So why the author thinks the 4-3 would go away when many teams don't have the personnel for a 3-4 puzzles me

Not the author, but there's a small misconception that you need a dominating nose tackle to use the 3-4 at all. Yes and no. The 3-4's main strength is the extra linebacker's versatility against the pass (he can fill a seam, pass rush or drop into coverage) while the DL is expected to keep the running game "honest". In this form, it's appealing against today's pass-happy offenses but as others have stated, it puts immense physical pressure on the D-line, especially the NT. If your NT can't hold his own against two linemen your line will be pushed back on run plays and can't pressure the QB on pass plays; that's a sure way to lose a game. An offense that consistently gets at least four yards per carry and no sacks is in complete control of the game.

But that's a power-based 3-4, and the source of this "3-4 = All-Pro NT" misconception. There is also a speed-based 3-4. This basically expects the D-line to do not much more than bottle up the center and guards, relying on fast, sure-tackling, "Tampa 2" style linebackers to react to the play. Basically, the 3-4 works with undersized linemen if your linebackers are fast enough to burst through the seams before the RB does. You don't need size to make this work, but you need linebackers who are smart AND fast, because there's no time to communicate -- they need to each individually understand their assignments and react to each other or they'll leave a HUGE hole in coverage. It's a high-risk, high-return strategy because fast linebackers can also rack up sacks (a misread run play is basically just a blitz), but against a good line it's VERY vulnerable to the play action. Also, while you don't need an All-Pro lineman to make it work, you can't afford to have an idiot on your roster either.

True. The Dolphins run a 3-4 and did a fair amount of that early on before Jared Odrick got hurt and they had to move Randy Starks over to DE and Paul Soliai in at NT.

mr_a		2011-01-06 03:47:44 PM

sotua: wandererobtm101: sotua: I am a football newbie, and am looking for something like "football for not-so-dummies".

...

As for playing Madden, let's say I don't have spare time to play any video games, just watching real football games requires an explicit effort in time-management.

It is easy. First memorize the following list of words:

momentum, blitz, dog, red dog, 3-4, 4-3, cover-2, cover-3, split wide, screen, hurry-up, go-to, dominate, audible, zone-blitz, shut-down corner, a-gap,playmaker, etc

Then learn to chain them together and insert a random players name (they put them on the uniforms just to make this step easier).

Say things like: "Grebowski is really turning into a shut-down corner since they have moved into the cover-3 defense". Or "How about that Marcus Coldman. Did you see him hit the a-gap? He is really a playmaker".

Don't worry if it doesn't seem to make any sense. Few people really understand half of this stuff, and if you say it loud and with confidence, no one will question anything.

If you can do it with clear diction and manage to pronounce the players names right, you might get a TV contract.

sotua		2011-01-06 04:07:35 PM

mr_a: sotua: wandererobtm101: sotua: I am a football newbie, and am looking for something like "football for not-so-dummies".

...

As for playing Madden, let's say I don't have spare time to play any video games, just watching real football games requires an explicit effort in time-management.

It is easy. First memorize the following list of words:

momentum, blitz, dog, red dog, 3-4, 4-3, cover-2, cover-3, split wide, screen, hurry-up, go-to, dominate, audible, zone-blitz, shut-down corner, a-gap,playmaker, etc

Then learn to chain them together and insert a random players name (they put them on the uniforms just to make this step easier).

Say things like: "Grebowski is really turning into a shut-down corner since they have moved into the cover-3 defense". Or "How about that Marcus Coldman. Did you see him hit the a-gap? He is really a playmaker".

Don't worry if it doesn't seem to make any sense. Few people really understand half of this stuff, and if you say it loud and with confidence, no one will question anything.

If you can do it with clear diction and manage to pronounce the players names right, you might get a TV contract.

+1 internets for you for making me LOL _and_ giving me the foundation to my future NFL broadcast career.

xaks		2011-01-06 04:15:24 PM

xaks		2011-01-06 04:17:28 PM

Ah-hah, got it!

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/2009/09bramel_idpguide.php

drkdstryer		2011-01-06 04:19:42 PM

Coach_J: Regarding sportswriters and such not knowing what's really going on in a football game, I actually don't think that's true. Like certainly there are some morons with a press pass out there but a lot of them do know technically how to play the game - the problem is that they don't believe their audience can interpret that information.

Peter King is the worst offender, because he does know a lot about football! But instead of passing that knowledge on in an effective manner he assumes that the average fan doesn't know who, say, LeRon Landry is after week 14 or whatever, and uses that assumption to write his column. Occasionally there is a very useful gem in PK's columns, and that is the most frustrating part of reading him. He does have all this football acumen, and would rather writer about his trips on a train or his current brew of coffee.

OSULugan		2011-01-06 04:21:25 PM

Sabyen91		2011-01-06 04:22:39 PM

mr_a: Say things like: "Grebowski is really turning into a shut-down corner since they have moved into the cover-3 defense"

Busted. Grebowski is a white name.

Treygreen13		2011-01-06 04:45:16 PM

They're stealing my trade secrets! Football player! Tampa-2. One of the best _______________ in the league. Leads the league in grit!

redmid17		2011-01-06 05:03:47 PM

generaltimmy		2011-01-06 05:32:40 PM

I prefer the 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1

JohnBigBootay		2011-01-06 07:00:13 PM

mr_a: Don't worry if it doesn't seem to make any sense. Few people really understand half of this stuff, and if you say it loud and with confidence, no one will question anything.

If you can do it with clear diction and manage to pronounce the players names right, you might get a TV contract.

So true.

I'm the opposite anyway. I used to know all that shiat back when a trap or a screen or a buttonhook or a spy or a blitz were considered arcane pieces of information. But after about 35 years of watching football I decided I really don't give a rat's ass. half of it is bullshiat different names for stuff they've been doing for a long time anyway. At any rate I have found my enjoyment of the game is not increased one bit by knowing whether the team is running a west coast offense or a 4-3 or a cover whatever the fark anyway.

IAmRight		2011-01-07 01:42:56 AM

John Nash: It may sound funny to some, but Madden really does teach you a lot about football.

IIRC, I heard on a broadcast (not that that means it's accurate or anything) Antonio Gates learned football from Madden, since he didn't play until either college or after college.

sotua: As for playing Madden, let's say I don't have spare time to play any video games, just watching real football games requires an explicit effort in time-management.

Play Madden during the first half and watch the second.

/okay, you could probably finish a game in the first quarter

ramen_for_all		2011-01-07 04:37:04 AM

So it's only mostly dead?

BTW everybody, get ready for a green and gold Superbowl. And if that happens, there may be a Milwaukee Fark-Superbowl party.

images0.cpcache.com

Coach_J		2011-01-07 09:16:02 AM

ambassador_ahab: Coach_J: They are mutually exclusive and have nothing to do with each other.

I get you are talking about the secondary coverage, but what specifically is "mutually exclusive"?

I mean that your coverage scheme in the secondary doesn't dictate what your entire team does.

A lot (most?) believe that when a team is said to be playing "cover-2" that means that the ENTIRE team is playing cover two when technically that scheme could affect as few as 5 players, depending on how many potential receivers the opponent is using.

And in terms of Peter King's knowledge...I don't buy it. Reading his crappy column for years where he MASSIVELY over-credits wins and losses to the QB position while completely ignoring Defense and Special teams is a perfect example of his "dumbed down" knowledge.

I think Peter King has great access to football players, coaches, front-office, etc., but his football knowledge? Garbage.

And dragonchild, you are confusing defense scheme with gap coverage. Your rationale is right, but that doesn't dictate 3-4 or 4-3 it dictates where do your stick your line and LBs on run defense, i.e., gap coverage.

USA Football and their coaches corner (it's been really improved on in the past couple of years) does a pretty good job informing on the fundamental and the mailbox typically focuses on scheming and formation variations.

And if you are a really big "football nerd" I highly recommend seeking out your State's HS football association and seeing if you can get a reduced rate (Guest pass) to a State/regional coach's football clinic. It's your typical "seminar" type clinic where HS/College and sometimes Pro coaches will teach classes on formations, variations, techniques, player safety, etc, and you can typically pick and choose what you go to. It's not for everyone, but I've taken a few neighbors over the years and they just loved it.

http://www.usafootball.com/articles/coaching

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