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(Yahoo)   GM and Nissan made good on their promise to bring mass produced electric cars to the market. However, no one wants to buy them   (finance.yahoo.com) divider line 404
    More: Obvious, Nissan Motor Co., Chevy Volt, Nissan LEAF, car companies, electric cars, sticker price, power car, advanced countries  
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13171 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Jan 2011 at 8:20 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2011-01-02 03:04:36 PM  
It will be well into 2012 before both the Volt and Leaf are available nationwide. And if you're interested in buying one, you'll need to get behind the 50,000 people already on waiting lists.

No one except those people? Help me out here.
 
2011-01-02 03:09:17 PM  
Where are we going to get the electricity to charge all these vehicles?
 
2011-01-02 03:18:05 PM  
cehlen: Where are we going to get the electricity to charge all these vehicles?

From coal, which produces more pollution than gas. I can't see buying a car that you drive for 1.5 hours and then have to charge it for 16 hours.
 
2011-01-02 03:29:31 PM  
cehlen: Where are we going to get the electricity to charge all these vehicles?

seth rogan on a treadmill
 
2011-01-02 03:53:13 PM  
knbber2: cehlen: Where are we going to get the electricity to charge all these vehicles?

From coal, which produces more pollution than gas. I can't see buying a car that you drive for 1.5 hours and then have to charge it for 16 hours.


Oh come on you just phoned that in, really you gotta at least make it look like you tried.
 
2011-01-02 04:30:35 PM  
St_Francis_P: It will be well into 2012 before both the Volt and Leaf are available nationwide. And if you're interested in buying one, you'll need to get behind the 50,000 people already on waiting lists.

No one except those people? Help me out here.


That's about .002% of auto sales. Hell, there are more Flex Engine vehicles that can burn ethanol on the road than that.
 
2011-01-02 04:46:10 PM  
GaryPDX: St_Francis_P: It will be well into 2012 before both the Volt and Leaf are available nationwide. And if you're interested in buying one, you'll need to get behind the 50,000 people already on waiting lists.

No one except those people? Help me out here.

That's about .002% of auto sales. Hell, there are more Flex Engine vehicles that can burn ethanol on the road than that.


Yeah, that's true, but 50,000 on a waiting list for a car is pretty encouraging. We'll have to wait until they're being produced in large numbers to see if the demand continues, or if the market saturates quickly.
 
2011-01-02 05:10:46 PM  
I totally want to buy an electric car.

I just don't want an electric car with a paltry 75-mile travel
distance before recharge, recharging for 12+ hours in order to
drive that paltry 75-miles, paying more for the electricity
delivered by my Gas & Electric monopoly company to charge those
batteries than any person should ever have to (even at $5 a
gallon gasoline would still be cheaper than the overall
electricity cost per year), and a price tag that is nearly 3x
what I can get a good and very nice high mileage gasoline car for
that will travel 600+ miles before a fill up is required.

Electric cars are overall way over expensive crap right now and
they will be for many years to come.
 
2011-01-02 05:28:22 PM  
Damn near everyone I've ever spoken to on the subject says they want an electric car. Know what else they want? An electric car that doesn't cost 50 grand. Once they start releasing cheaper models in the 20K range, you'll see sales explode.
 
2011-01-02 05:37:50 PM  
Meatzilla: I totally want to buy an electric car.

I just don't want an electric car with a paltry 75-mile travel
distance before recharge, recharging for 12+ hours in order to
drive that paltry 75-miles, paying more for the electricity
delivered by my Gas & Electric monopoly company to charge those
batteries than any person should ever have to (even at $5 a
gallon gasoline would still be cheaper than the overall
electricity cost per year), and a price tag that is nearly 3x
what I can get a good and very nice high mileage gasoline car for
that will travel 600+ miles before a fill up is required.

Electric cars are overall way over expensive crap right now and
they will be for many years to come.


In other words, you don't want an electric car.

/why didn't you just say so, instead of all that other crap?
 
2011-01-02 05:55:08 PM  
Driving Without Pants: Damn near everyone I've ever spoken to on the subject says they want an electric car. Know what else they want? An electric car that doesn't cost 50 grand. Once they start releasing cheaper models in the 20K range, you'll see sales explode.

Not when you have to burn coal to generate the electricity on a large scale. It's actually self defeating. Wind and solar are "variable" sources and electric utilities don't "store" energy except behind dams. Electricity is burned when it's produced. Around here in Oregon when a storm blows through, they have to actually shut down the dams AND then the wind mills to keep from frying them and the grid.

So, the only way to provide cheap abundant stable electricity is either burn coal, natural gas or nuke. As far as nukes, everyone wants it, just not in their back yard.

I would love to see electric cars but they depend on too many other things to be viable right now. I can see them being hipster fad-ish in the inner cities but more than that, I just don't see it.
 
2011-01-02 05:56:36 PM  
GaryPDX: That's about .002% of auto sales. Hell, there are more Flex Engine vehicles that can burn ethanol on the road than that.

Are implying that GM wouldn't like to have orders for 50,000 cars on top of what they'll sell off the lots? In the first year of production?
 
2011-01-02 06:02:34 PM  
GaryPDX: Driving Without Pants: Damn near everyone I've ever spoken to on the subject says they want an electric car. Know what else they want? An electric car that doesn't cost 50 grand. Once they start releasing cheaper models in the 20K range, you'll see sales explode.

Not when you have to burn coal to generate the electricity on a large scale. It's actually self defeating. Wind and solar are "variable" sources and electric utilities don't "store" energy except behind dams. Electricity is burned when it's produced. Around here in Oregon when a storm blows through, they have to actually shut down the dams AND then the wind mills to keep from frying them and the grid.

So, the only way to provide cheap abundant stable electricity is either burn coal, natural gas or nuke. As far as nukes, everyone wants it, just not in their back yard.

I would love to see electric cars but they depend on too many other things to be viable right now. I can see them being hipster fad-ish in the inner cities but more than that, I just don't see it.


But consumers won't care about that, they'll only care about not having to pay through the nose for gasoline. As soon as they start offering models in the "affordable family car" price range they're going to sell like hotcakes. Fixing our electric grid will come later.
 
2011-01-02 06:06:38 PM  
CougarJeff: GaryPDX: That's about .002% of auto sales. Hell, there are more Flex Engine vehicles that can burn ethanol on the road than that.

Are implying that GM wouldn't like to have orders for 50,000 cars on top of what they'll sell off the lots? In the first year of production?


I'm just saying that's not a big number. 10-12 years ago they made 20 times that many Flex Engine Ethanol cars. They didn't sell very well. What GM did was put HUGE incentives on them and the dealers used that for "leader ads". They sold a bunch because of low price alone and very few people knew they were driving Flex Engine vehicles.

There's probably 3+ million of those on the pavement today and the owners don't even know it. They didn't sell as "Flex Engine" vehicles, they couldn't give them away.

I just don't think it's going to be some gang buster explosion of sales like people want to believe.
 
2011-01-02 06:15:22 PM  
GaryPDX: I'm just saying that's not a big number. 10-12 years ago they made 20 times that many Flex Engine Ethanol cars.

Yeah... you know that was many different models right? And that we're talking about pre-orders for vehicles a year in advance? Wait, never mind, you don't know.
 
2011-01-02 06:20:22 PM  
CougarJeff: GaryPDX: I'm just saying that's not a big number. 10-12 years ago they made 20 times that many Flex Engine Ethanol cars.

Yeah... you know that was many different models right? And that we're talking about pre-orders for vehicles a year in advance? Wait, never mind, you don't know.


I do know, my family owned a GM Franchise back then. Everyone was trying to capitalize on the "alternative energy" dealio back then. (Flex Cars (new window))

And people figured out Ethanol isn't such a good idea anyway, so here we are, the next wave of alternatives. Electric cars powered by coal.
 
2011-01-02 06:37:02 PM  
I drive an Expedition w/ a v8 engine. While the 15-16 mpg it gets is pretty good for such a huge vehicle, I'd love to have an all electric or plug-in hybrid vehicle to take over the majority of my driving. Given that I can easily pay $300/month for gas, I have room to get back some of the cash that would go to a car loan, too.
 
2011-01-02 07:04:30 PM  
knbber2: cehlen: Where are we going to get the electricity to charge all these vehicles?

From coal, which produces more pollution than gas. I can't see buying a car that you drive for 1.5 hours and then have to charge it for 16 hours.


With the current mix of generation in the US, electric vehicles represent about a 30% reduction in CO2 emissions. Any additional greening of production or efficiency improvements in transmission and storage drive that number up.

But you already knew that, didn't you? You can't possibly be this stupid.

That's your one factoid, free of charge. Now fark off and go learn something before returning.

/*Ignore*
 
2011-01-02 07:26:50 PM  
knbber2: cehlen: Where are we going to get the electricity to charge all these vehicles?

From coal, which produces more pollution than gas. I can't see buying a car that you drive for 1.5 hours and then have to charge it for 16 hours.


Wow, 1.5 hours would get me to/from work with no stops, traffic, or anything else. I'll stick with what I have until they make it efficient and practical. Nevermind that they cost more than my 2008 Focus did, by a LOT, and if it really does take 16 hours to charge, who has that much time between needing to use their cars? I leave for work at 9:15am, get home at 7:15pm at best (no stops or traffic...) Yeah, thanks, but... not yet. Even though gas prices are worrying me, would it make a difference if I paid a ton to Sunoco or Shell or NYSEG?
 
2011-01-02 07:46:51 PM  
St_Francis_P: It will be well into 2012 before both the Volt and Leaf are available nationwide. And if you're interested in buying one, you'll need to get behind the 50,000 people already on waiting lists.

No one except those people? Help me out here.


In Derpspeak, "limited supply" means "limited demand".
 
2011-01-02 07:46:57 PM  
People don't want to by them because they are from Chevrolet and Nissan, not because they are electric vehicles.

I would buy electric because I'm one of the few people who drive enough that the electrics would pay off within a reasonable time period. That being said, the leaf is useless to me because my normal daily commute is just over 100 miles, so I have to have something with double that range to guarantee I can still drive it to work in four years. (Assuming the range will go down as the battery gets old.)

/drive a 2010 prius now.
//before this, had a 2008 prius, and several diesel VW's, which I loved but couldn't rely on.
 
2011-01-02 07:57:14 PM  
GaryPDX: Not when you have to burn coal to generate the electricity on a large scale. It's actually self defeating. Wind and solar are "variable" sources and electric utilities don't "store" energy except behind dams. Electricity is burned when it's produced. Around here in Oregon when a storm blows through, they have to actually shut down the dams AND then the wind mills to keep from frying them and the grid.

So, the only way to provide cheap abundant stable electricity is either burn coal, natural gas or nuke. As far as nukes, everyone wants it, just not in their back yard.

I would love to see electric cars but they depend on too many other things to be viable right now. I can see them being hipster fad-ish in the inner cities but more than that, I just don't see it.


Almost everything you said here is either false, ignorant or disingenuous. I know where you live, and none of your electricity comes from coal. But even if you moved to Pittsburg, it would still be much cleaner to run electric cars that came from 100 percent coal electricity for a variety of reasons (eg, it is easier to keep one big smokestack clean, or the fact that modified rankine cycles are more efficient than otto or diesel cycles). And no one is saying that wind and solar will completely produce baseline electricity, but you are completely blowing the issue out of proportion. It might amaze you to learn that concentrated solar power can produce electricity 6 hours into the night by storing the heat with molten salt. And the bottom line is that the actual demand of electricity increases by huge margins during the day, so you don't need THAT much baseline electricity, which makes your statement that you can "only produce it with coal, natural gas or nuke" ridiculous. We could easily cover it with a combination of geothermal, wave/tidal and, yes, nuke. And nuke won't be a problem because your assertion that we don't build nuke plants because of NIMBY concerns is bullshait. We don't build them because to truly make them safe it is a little too expensive to make them competitive. Once we get out of fairy tale land and quit subsidizing fossil fuels, the nuclear plants will come. The only really true thing you wrote is that you "can't see" electric cars taking off. But that's a function of your lack of ability to see, not actual reality.
 
2011-01-02 08:01:29 PM  
serpent_sky: Nevermind that they cost more than my 2008 Focus did, by a LOT, and if it really does take 16 hours to charge, who has that much time between needing to use their cars?

That's incorrect. The Leaf will charge in 6 or 7 hours, and then get you 60 (blasting A/C while in a traffic jam) to 130 (cruising at 35 mph) miles on a charge. Sounds to me like that would work great for most commuters. And you can get one for the low 20s, But you'll have to get in line, because it is supply, not demand that is low.
 
2011-01-02 08:01:44 PM  
Hollie Maea: Almost everything you said here is either false, ignorant or disingenuous. I know where you live, and none of your electricity comes from coal.

Well, you're dumber than a stump in the very first sentence, Ever heard of Boardman (new window)?

We get 550 megawatts from there, a substantial percentage of NW electricity.
 
2011-01-02 08:03:24 PM  
I want an electric car. But I only buy used. So it'll be several years before they even become an option.

Had GM not killed the EV, It could potentially be an option now. Thanks, GM.
 
2011-01-02 08:05:18 PM  
Driving Without Pants: Once they start releasing cheaper models in the 20K range

Such as the leaf? Which costs 25K after rebate?
 
2011-01-02 08:05:43 PM  
GM and Nissan made good on their promise to bring mass produced electric cars to the market. However, no one wants to buy them can afford them because the economy sucks shiat.

ftfy
 
2011-01-02 08:08:02 PM  
GaryPDX: Well, you're dumber than a stump in the very first sentence, Ever heard of Boardman (new window)?

Hardly any of your electricity comes from boardman. And they are shutting it down anyway.
 
2011-01-02 08:12:46 PM  
Hollie Maea: GaryPDX: Well, you're dumber than a stump in the very first sentence, Ever heard of Boardman (new window)?

Hardly any of your electricity comes from boardman. And they are shutting it down anyway.


You think? It's run by Portland General Electric, MY Utility. It may close in ten years, maybe. And all that means is higher energy costs. Much higher, that will really help..uh huh.
 
2011-01-02 08:22:10 PM  
St_Francis_P: It will be well into 2012 before both the Volt and Leaf are available nationwide. And if you're interested in buying one, you'll need to get behind the 50,000 people already on waiting lists.

No one except those people? Help me out here.


this is just more AP propaganda. probably a favor to someone's big oil buddy.
 
2011-01-02 08:22:44 PM  
No one wants an electric car because they have very limited range and cost too damn much.
 
2011-01-02 08:25:06 PM  
The Volt is selling on target. It's supposed to be a limited release vehicle (the 40k price tag and regional limitations assure that). Hell we're not even really pushing them as sales. We prefer you lease. We moved 350 in our first month of sales, with not all markets getting shipments yet. To meet our target for 2011 we basically need to double that up to 700 cars. Shouldn't be a problem as production gears up and ship to more parts of America.

The entire purpose of Gen I is to make sure the technology is up to spec. We don't want to be doing recalls on 100k of them. Lease them out, when the lease is up we can take them back to the tech center and work them over to see what we did wrong.
 
2011-01-02 08:25:06 PM  
If anyone ever figures out an efficient way to split water not only will our energy problems be solved, but it will cause a complete collapse of the middle east. A win-win situation in my opinion.
 
2011-01-02 08:25:45 PM  
knbber2: cehlen: Where are we going to get the electricity to charge all these vehicles?

From coal, which produces more pollution than gas. I can't see buying a car that you drive for 1.5 hours and then have to charge it for 16 hours.


that's because you're blinkered.

for one thing they charge faster than that. for another most people in their daily commute drive less than 1.5 hours a day.
and although coal doesn't burn as clean as gas you're talking about a few smokestacks vs millions of vehicles.
 
2011-01-02 08:26:43 PM  
Article is misleading.

A lot of people want to buy the cars, but there none available. Also, there are no places to charge the damn things, leading to a real catasrophe in the making.

Chevy Volt says you can run 50 miles on the batteries, then 400 more on the engine-------but they do not say what you do after that!

Also, if you are 400 miles from home and flat out of charge, the engine will not recharge the batteries.

Not smart, Chevy; not smart.
 
2011-01-02 08:29:21 PM  
OgreMagi: If anyone ever figures out an efficient way to split water not only will our energy problems be solved, but it will cause a complete collapse of the middle east. A win-win situation in my opinion.

The best way I've seen so far is Wind2H2 (new window). Hydrogen becomes the storage medium.
 
2011-01-02 08:32:22 PM  
olddinosaur: Article is misleading.

A lot of people want to buy the cars, but there none available. Also, there are no places to charge the damn things, leading to a real catasrophe in the making.

Chevy Volt says you can run 50 miles on the batteries, then 400 more on the engine-------but they do not say what you do after that!

Also, if you are 400 miles from home and flat out of charge, the engine will not recharge the batteries.

Not smart, Chevy; not smart.


1) If you're 400 miles from home, you should have thought this through better.

2) after the 400, you put in more gas.
 
2011-01-02 08:32:35 PM  
Electric cars run on gasoline? Great.
 
2011-01-02 08:32:45 PM  
FARK headline and link headline have me confused as an two-peckered, web-toed, 7-1/2 y/o African American child with one leg during the week leading up to Fathers Day.

Which is it? No one wants to buy these cars that have been brought-to-market, yet there is a waiting list of over 50,000 to buy?

I have another Fark-headline induced headache.
 
2011-01-02 08:32:57 PM  
Hobodeluxe: for one thing they charge faster than that. for another most people in their daily commute drive less than 1.5 hours a day.
and although coal doesn't burn as clean as gas you're talking about a few smokestacks vs millions of vehicles.


And even then most electricity isn't generated by coal. But that won't stop people from pretending that it will be 100% coal, rather than, at most, 50% coal (cleaned at the stack) and 50% cleaner energies for the fleet.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2011-01-02 08:33:45 PM  
knbber2: From coal, which produces more pollution than gas

Umm....no.

Centrally produced energy from coal is much less polluting and more efficient than the equivalent number of gasoline burning engines.
 
2011-01-02 08:34:26 PM  
only 10 leaf's were sold? wow.
 
2011-01-02 08:34:44 PM  
nostudme: Electric cars run on gasoline? Great.

Phones you can use in your hands, without cords? Well that's just great.
 
2011-01-02 08:34:59 PM  
GaryPDX: OgreMagi: If anyone ever figures out an efficient way to split water not only will our energy problems be solved, but it will cause a complete collapse of the middle east. A win-win situation in my opinion.

The best way I've seen so far is Wind2H2 (new window). Hydrogen becomes the storage medium.


That is very old science.

Back in 1972, the L5 Society proposed beaming energy from space down to earth as microwaves, and using the surplus to electrolyze water so as to create hydrogen which could then be pumped into existing natural gas lines and burned the same way.

The project never got started because Amerika turned from a can-do nation into a why-not nation; a land of wussies.
 
2011-01-02 08:35:24 PM  
olddinosaur

Article is misleading.

A lot of people want to buy the cars, but there none available. Also, there are no places to charge the damn things, leading to a real catasrophe in the making.

Chevy Volt says you can run 50 miles on the batteries, then 400 more on the engine-------but they do not say what you do after that!

Also, if you are 400 miles from home and flat out of charge, the engine will not recharge the batteries.

Not smart, Chevy; not smart.


Chevy did not enter the EV market willingly.

They tried to kill the concept once before. They're trying again.

Produce a really crappy EV, throw up their hands and smile, then offer their existing line of combustion engine vehicles as "real" cars.

/electricity terrifies car makers and fuel suppliers.
 
2011-01-02 08:35:44 PM  
Yeah, I just wanted to come in here and mention that the headline said the exact opposite of the article.
Granted, the first sentence of the article also contradicted the rest of it. I don't consider a company as having "made good on a promise to mass produce" something, until it's actually IN MASS PRODUCTION. Having made a couple hundred doesn't count.

OgreMagi: If anyone ever figures out an efficient way to split water not only will our energy problems be solved, but it will cause a complete collapse of the middle east. A win-win situation in my opinion.

We have an efficient way to split water. But there's no energy in water. It's not a fuel, you have to put energy into it in order to transform it into something useful.
 
2011-01-02 08:35:54 PM  
Playinodds: Not smart, Chevy; not smart.

1) If you're 400 miles from home, you should have thought this through better.

2) after the 400, you put in more gas.


My car ran out of gas once. I had to get towed. This shows that we should not use gas engines.
 
2011-01-02 08:36:16 PM  
FTA The base sticker price is $40,280 for the Volt and $32,780 for the Leaf, much higher than most similar-sized, gas-powered cars.

We'll there's your problem.

Besides until they come up with an electric minivan I won't be going electric any time soon.
 
2011-01-02 08:36:28 PM  
St_Francis_P: It will be well into 2012 before both the Volt and Leaf are available nationwide. And if you're interested in buying one, you'll need to get behind the 50,000 people already on waiting lists.

No one except those people? Help me out here.


Well the article says 10k one year, 35k the next and 45k the year after. I wonder how many of that original 50k are really part of these projected sales (not actually NEW sales, just everyone that put up a deposit 3 years ago is now picking up their new toy cars). Or, how many people on that waiting list just say to hell with it and buy a regular gas engine, or a used one so they don't have to keep waiting forever.
 
2011-01-02 08:36:30 PM  
SlothB77: only 10 leaf's were sold? wow.

I'm a leaf on the wind...

profile.ak.fbcdn.net
 
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