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(Boston Globe)   Hey, kids -- we're going to take away your toy guns and smash them for Christmas. Ho ho ho   (boston.com) divider line 260
    More: Asinine  
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9448 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Dec 2010 at 12:09 AM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-12-21 09:45:21 AM  
I was thinking of getting a Remmy 870 for home defense when I get the money. 12 Gauge shells are way cheaper than rifle or pistol rounds, and can still do a shiatton of damage at close enough range. Especially against zombies.

A couple guns are nice, but I personally don't see a need to be armed to the teeth. I figure that if a SWAT team or the military decides to go after me, I wouldn't stand a chance no matter how many guns I own.
 
2010-12-21 09:51:38 AM  
Animatronik: You mean using a mini-14 with the wrong ammo? That could be a problem, I've heard they're junk anyway.

Mini-14 is chambered in the same .223 that most AR-15 pattern rifles can feed. They can also be adapted to feed from 30 round STANAGs. The point I was making is that the Mini-14 and AR-15 are essentially identical other than one being black and the other having (normally) wood furniture. The term "assault weapon" is a FUD term which is meaningless.

/mini-14s get a bad rap
//they aren't a sub-MOA platform, but everyone tries to use them as such
 
2010-12-21 09:54:40 AM  
That article made me shooty.

In kindergarten, he brought a pop gun to school and shot at a classmate when the child refused to return his toy truck.

The police and representatives of the state's children services department rushed to the school, and the boy was expelled.


Wow. WTF people? I guess it was a good opportunity to take a teaching moment and ruin it. Instead of explaining to the child why he shouldn't bring a toy gun to school, you taught him to be a reactionary douchebag who is probably terrified of cops now.

"He had it in his pants like a gangster,''

My 18 month old son was running around the house with a toy gun stuffed in his diaper the other day. I'm not too worried about him growing up to be a gang-banger.

Yesterday, she had six other of his guns to feed the Bash-O-Matic, but she admitted she had let Malik keep one, a small pistol that shoots rubber targets.

Toy guns are bad and lead to violence. Unless they only have one. One is okay.

Some parents confessed that they bought guns just a couple of days before the event so their children could get a gift or watch the Bash-O-Matic do its work.

I'll bet those kids really learned a lesson.

Ardella Powell, 28, who came with her four children, said she wants to see the guns destroyed because it helps her cope with the violent death of the father of her 11-year-old son. The man was gunned down in 2003.

You had a baby with a criminal. He got shot. Maybe you should teach your child to not be a criminal.

"We hope it makes a difference,'' Baum said.

It doesn't. You did get the opportunity to make some kids cry and feel smug about what a good deed you're doing though, so it's all good.
 
2010-12-21 09:58:59 AM  
dittybopper: weezbo: Garko:
Your penis looks like Hello Kitty?

Yes and my local neighborhood is filled with Japanophile gangs riding around on completely impractical motorcycles and armed with swords and psychic powers. They're always after me used panty collection.

That's tragically malicious.


Alas, I cannot refavorite you, Dittybopper, as you are already favorited.

If I double-favorite you, that will create a paradox and put you on my ignore list.

So nothing changes.
 
2010-12-21 09:59:50 AM  
knightofargh: Animatronik: You mean using a mini-14 with the wrong ammo? That could be a problem, I've heard they're junk anyway.

Mini-14 is chambered in the same .223 that most AR-15 pattern rifles can feed. They can also be adapted to feed from 30 round STANAGs. The point I was making is that the Mini-14 and AR-15 are essentially identical other than one being black and the other having (normally) wood furniture. The term "assault weapon" is a FUD term which is meaningless.

/mini-14s get a bad rap
//they aren't a sub-MOA platform, but everyone tries to use them as such


Agreed. I liked the Mini-14 Ranch Rifle I had. It was reliable, handy and accurate enough to be useful. I don't think Minis are as robust as most ARs and I don't think they can cope with sustained fire that well, but they work fine for most people.
 
2010-12-21 10:08:47 AM  
4chan Ambassador: Good. Guns are evil. I used to own a gun when I was a fearful conservative, and at night, it used to whisper in it's deadly metallic voice "Kill someone, shoot your neighbor, destroy, hurt, murder". I was completely powerless against its hypnotic tune, and almost killed my dear sister before I realized how evil and twisted the gun had made me, and in a final act of violence, smashed the gun with my bootstrappy feet.

Now I'm a happy healthy liberal with no need nor want for childish and dangerous things, and forbid in my home all guns, all violence, and especially that pesky Constitution.


farm3.static.flickr.com

/LOL'd
 
2010-12-21 10:11:08 AM  
phestry: Thread is TL;DR, but there will be two nice shiny new Nerf rifles being brandished in my house on Xmas morning. I think my daughter has a better Nerf arsenal than most of the boys in the neighborhood.

I've got you beat. There's a shiny new 20 gauge pump under our tree for my son. I'm guessing that probably wouldn't be age appropriate for your daughter though.
 
2010-12-21 10:13:31 AM  
I like the stopping power of the old-fashioned .45s that we used to have in the Navy. When I got out, they were replacing them with cheap plastic Glocks.

I like the push of the recoil on a .45 rather than the snap of a 9mm.

My home defense gun is a 870 with a tube extension and a top folding stock. I like the folding stock to reduce the overall length but the stock makes it easier to control.
 
2010-12-21 10:17:47 AM  
When they outlaw children's toy guns; only outlaw children will have toy guns.
 
2010-12-21 10:19:29 AM  
rattchett: I don't think Minis are as robust as most ARs and I don't think they can cope with sustained fire that well, but they work fine for most people.

I only have a range AR currently. No forward jammer or dust cover. It's not tacti-cool, but it serves as a fun and fairly accurate platform.

/Cheap 5 MOA optics are cheap of course.
 
2010-12-21 10:23:54 AM  
mod3072: phestry: Thread is TL;DR, but there will be two nice shiny new Nerf rifles being brandished in my house on Xmas morning. I think my daughter has a better Nerf arsenal than most of the boys in the neighborhood.

I've got you beat. There's a shiny new 20 gauge pump under our tree for my son. I'm guessing that probably wouldn't be age appropriate for your daughter though.


Yeah, she's still a bit small to shoot the scatter guns. She does well with my .22 rifles though. Her favorite thing to shoot is her Daisy Red Ryder BB gun.
 
2010-12-21 10:32:03 AM  
I'm a liberal and I like guns.

There, I said it. I think an armed society is a polite society, and that a gun, like any other tool, if used responsibly, is no more dangerous than a power tool or vehicle.

These people should be focusing on real guns, not toy ones if that is their belief.
 
2010-12-21 10:38:27 AM  
M1A is my weapon. I have the M2 Bipod for it. Most accurate rifle I have ever fired, and you have 20 rounds in the magazine, real rounds, .308, not dinky little .223. Odd, this rifle could do unbelievable damage if someone wanted it to, yet I have never heard of one being used such in this country. Shouldn't a rifle like that make me a killer?
 
2010-12-21 10:46:24 AM  
mod3072: You had a baby with a criminal. He got shot. Maybe you should teach your child to not be a criminal.

But to them, that's *NORMAL*. They don't actually know any better because their fathers were criminals, and their mothers made the same mistakes. Oh, they might see what a 'normal' family looks like on TV, but it's not real to them.

I can sort-of understand *WHY* they might blame guns for their problems. Violence is overwhelmingly a problem in the black community: The homicide rate overall in the US is 6.09 per 100,000. The non-Hispanic White rate is less than half that, at 2.74 per 100,000, whereas the non-Hispanic Black rate is a sickening 23.00 per 100,000, almost 10 times the White rate.

You can't blame poverty for it either. There are almost twice as many poor Whites in the US as there are poor Blacks (16 million vs 9.9 million Blacks in 2007), yet there were 8,746 Black homicide victims vs. 5,512 White homicide victims. To 'equalize' this, there were (5512/16,000,000*100,000) = 34.45 homicides per 100,000 poor whites, and (8746/9,900,000*100,000) = 88.34 homicide per 100,000 poor blacks, a rate almost three times higher.
Sources (CDC WISQARS Injury Mortality Reports for homicide data, and US Census Historical Poverty Tables for poverty stats.


This is a 'bogus' statistic, in that not all homicide victims are poor, but it is useful as a comparison to show that the difference in homicide between Blacks and Whites is not entirely due to economic status. It is true that poor Whites have a higher homicide rate than middle-class or rich Whites, and the same holds true for poor Blacks having higher homicide rates than more well-off Blacks, but the difference can't be accounted for by economics, as we took the poverty factor out of the equation.

I've had people say the difference is due to the alleged fact that poor whites tend to live in rural areas and poor blacks live in urban areas, but that really isn't true either: Roughly 80% of poor Whites live in metropolitan statistical areas, compared to 87% of poor Blacks. Poor people tend to gravitate to cities where there is better access to government services and where transportation is less of a problem regardless of their race.

To make this abundantly clear, though, I DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO THE IDEA THAT SKIN COLOR CAUSES THIS DISCREPANCY. It has more to do with a specific, violent subculture that predominates in the poor, urban Black community.

So I can understand why they might blame the guns, even though Whites have a much higher rate of gun ownership and a much lower rate of homicide.

It's easier to blame an inanimate object for your troubles than it is to take a good, hard look at oneself and one's community but by God I wish they really would start because we are losing generations of people who could make valuable contributions to society.
 
2010-12-21 10:57:52 AM  
That's why I like the the stock I put on my 870. Plus the factory stock was too long for the gf to use comfortably.

i843.photobucket.com
 
2010-12-21 11:06:50 AM  
FTFA:

Hall said she had no regrets. The 26-year-old mother of six said she has been trying to wean her only son off toy guns for years. In kindergarten, he brought a pop gun to school and shot at a classmate when the child refused to return his toy truck.

The police and representatives of the state's children services department rushed to the school, and the boy was expelled.


Good lord. I have seen the farktards and they be us.
 
2010-12-21 11:11:14 AM  
dittybopper: mod3072: You had a baby with a criminal. He got shot. Maybe you should teach your child to not be a criminal.

But to them, that's *NORMAL*. They don't actually know any better because their fathers were criminals, and their mothers made the same mistakes. Oh, they might see what a 'normal' family looks like on TV, but it's not real to them.

I can sort-of understand *WHY* they might blame guns for their problems. Violence is overwhelmingly a problem in the black community: The homicide rate overall in the US is 6.09 per 100,000. The non-Hispanic White rate is less than half that, at 2.74 per 100,000, whereas the non-Hispanic Black rate is a sickening 23.00 per 100,000, almost 10 times the White rate.

You can't blame poverty for it either. There are almost twice as many poor Whites in the US as there are poor Blacks (16 million vs 9.9 million Blacks in 2007), yet there were 8,746 Black homicide victims vs. 5,512 White homicide victims. To 'equalize' this, there were (5512/16,000,000*100,000) = 34.45 homicides per 100,000 poor whites, and (8746/9,900,000*100,000) = 88.34 homicide per 100,000 poor blacks, a rate almost three times higher.
Sources (CDC WISQARS Injury Mortality Reports for homicide data, and US Census Historical Poverty Tables for poverty stats.


This is a 'bogus' statistic, in that not all homicide victims are poor, but it is useful as a comparison to show that the difference in homicide between Blacks and Whites is not entirely due to economic status. It is true that poor Whites have a higher homicide rate than middle-class or rich Whites, and the same holds true for poor Blacks having higher homicide rates than more well-off Blacks, but the difference can't be accounted for by economics, as we took the poverty factor out of the equation.

I've had people say the difference is due to the alleged fact that poor whites tend to live in rural areas and poor blacks live in urban areas, but that really isn't true either: Roughly 80% of poor Whites live in metropolitan statistical areas, compared to 87% of poor Blacks. Poor people tend to gravitate to cities where there is better access to government services and where transportation is less of a problem regardless of their race.

To make this abundantly clear, though, I DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO THE IDEA THAT SKIN COLOR CAUSES THIS DISCREPANCY. It has more to do with a specific, violent subculture that predominates in the poor, urban Black community.

So I can understand why they might blame the guns, even though Whites have a much higher rate of gun ownership and a much lower rate of homicide.

It's easier to blame an inanimate object for your troubles than it is to take a good, hard look at oneself and one's community but by God I wish they really would start because we are losing generations of people who could make valuable contributions to society.


I concur, and wish to subscribe to your peer-reviewed journal.
 
2010-12-21 11:13:52 AM  
m-o-r-o-n-i-c. Taking away kids toy guns is not going to reduce gun crimes. All it is going to do is take one more thing out of childhood. The day kids can't play cops and robbers you might as well lock them all up in their rooms and outlaw childhood.
 
2010-12-21 11:18:56 AM  
knightofargh: Animatronik: You mean using a mini-14 with the wrong ammo? That could be a problem, I've heard they're junk anyway.

Mini-14 is chambered in the same .223 that most AR-15 pattern rifles can feed. They can also be adapted to feed from 30 round STANAGs. The point I was making is that the Mini-14 and AR-15 are essentially identical other than one being black and the other having (normally) wood furniture. The term "assault weapon" is a FUD term which is meaningless.

/mini-14s get a bad rap
//they aren't a sub-MOA platform, but everyone tries to use them as such


Ruger makes a gun identical to the AR-15? News to me.

Let me rephrase: Nobody needs a small caliber semiautomatic rifle with a 30-round mag. Not for the home or hunting. And the .223, though maybe a little underpowered in combat, is perfectly capable of going through several walls/houses. That's one big advantage of 00 buckshot - right punch at the right distance.

I would like to get an M1A1 carbine though. But that fires essentially pistol ammo.
 
2010-12-21 11:24:12 AM  
 
2010-12-21 11:28:36 AM  
Kyoki: What Mai said. A 5.56 penetrates far less interior wall(s) than many pistols and shotguns.

At first I was going to call bullshiat because a shotgun pellet is not spin stabilized, less aerodynamic, and much slower than a rifle bullet. But damn, you're right, those .223s really do fall apart once they hit something. Glad I did my research so that I didn't end up looking like a fool.

Kyoki: Plus, you now have 7-9 pellets that will each go their own separate ways, resulting in round accountability issues.


I'm still calling bullshiat on this one, though. Buckshot does not random-walk after it leaves the gun, it proceeds in a ballistic path with a SMALL cone of spread. Unless you're William Tell, you shouldn't be shooting at anything that you can't afford to miss by a couple of inches.
 
2010-12-21 11:32:39 AM  
CaptainFatass: You wouldn't fetishize your microwave oven, would you?

Would I fetishize it? No. But if I had a really cool one I might show it off.
 
2010-12-21 11:36:02 AM  
Animatronik: Nobody needs a small caliber semiautomatic rifle with a 30-round mag.

What the hell does need have to do with anything? If all we're talking about is sending bullets downrange, I don't need anything more than my single shot .22LR. But that hasn't stopped me from filling my cabinet with a hell of a lot more than that.

/30 rd mags are nice for not reloading quite as often.
 
2010-12-21 11:43:28 AM  
Animatronik: Ruger makes a gun identical to the AR-15? News to me.

Functionally identical. A semi-automatic .223 is a semi-automatic .223, the AR-15 just gets demonized by the MSM for lacking wood furniture.

Noticeably F.A.T.: /30 rd mags are nice for not reloading quite as often.

A whole bunch of that. Charging magazines wastes range time.
 
2010-12-21 11:43:29 AM  
give me doughnuts: I concur, and wish to subscribe to your peer-reviewed journal.

Right, like something so simple yet so un-PC would survive peer review. Besides which, after the whole Bellesiles debacle, I'm not sure peer review is worth the powder to blow it to Hell. It was outside reviewers that pointed out it's numerous shortcomings, while the peer reviewers swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.
 
2010-12-21 11:43:32 AM  
dittybopper: mod3072: You had a baby with a criminal. He got shot. Maybe you should teach your child to not be a criminal.

But to them, that's *NORMAL*. They don't actually know any better because their fathers were criminals, and their mothers made the same mistakes. Oh, they might see what a 'normal' family looks like on TV, but it's not real to them.

I can sort-of understand *WHY* they might blame guns for their problems. Violence is overwhelmingly a problem in the black community: The homicide rate overall in the US is 6.09 per 100,000. The non-Hispanic White rate is less than half that, at 2.74 per 100,000, whereas the non-Hispanic Black rate is a sickening 23.00 per 100,000, almost 10 times the White rate.

You can't blame poverty for it either. There are almost twice as many poor Whites in the US as there are poor Blacks (16 million vs 9.9 million Blacks in 2007), yet there were 8,746 Black homicide victims vs. 5,512 White homicide victims. To 'equalize' this, there were (5512/16,000,000*100,000) = 34.45 homicides per 100,000 poor whites, and (8746/9,900,000*100,000) = 88.34 homicide per 100,000 poor blacks, a rate almost three times higher.
Sources (CDC WISQARS Injury Mortality Reports for homicide data, and US Census Historical Poverty Tables for poverty stats.


This is a 'bogus' statistic, in that not all homicide victims are poor, but it is useful as a comparison to show that the difference in homicide between Blacks and Whites is not entirely due to economic status. It is true that poor Whites have a higher homicide rate than middle-class or rich Whites, and the same holds true for poor Blacks having higher homicide rates than more well-off Blacks, but the difference can't be accounted for by economics, as we took the poverty factor out of the equation.

I've had people say the difference is due to the alleged fact that poor whites tend to live in rural areas and poor blacks live in urban areas, but that really isn't true either: Roughly 80% of poor Whites live in metropolitan statistical areas, compared to 87% of poor Blacks. Poor people tend to gravitate to cities where there is better access to government services and where transportation is less of a problem regardless of their race.

To make this abundantly clear, though, I DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO THE IDEA THAT SKIN COLOR CAUSES THIS DISCREPANCY. It has more to do with a specific, violent subculture that predominates in the poor, urban Black community.

So I can understand why they might blame the guns, even though Whites have a much higher rate of gun ownership and a much lower rate of homicide.

It's easier to blame an inanimate object for your troubles than it is to take a good, hard look at oneself and one's community but by God I wish they really would start because we are losing generations of people who could make valuable contributions to society.


farm1.static.flickr.com

/jk
 
2010-12-21 11:47:13 AM  
Animatronik: Nobody needs an assault weapon unless you plan to shoot up the neighborhood, and the mini 14 is said by many to be a piece o junk (never owned one).

So, you have no experience with the platform, but you'll happily regurgitate an opinion? Gotcha. Regardless of the Mini-14/30/whatevers shortcomings (of which there are many), the error webs gun community would be well served if people didn't just re-spout whatever they'd heard. *sighs*

IMO the best weapon to protect your home is a 357 mag revolver loaded with 38 special. you will hit what you're aiming at and the bullet will not go through your neighbor's house. My second choice is a model 92 or 96 beretta.

The worst weapon is an clunky automatic long gun that could jam.


As someone who has an armory full of Glock 34s and Beretta M9s as well as M1911s and M10 revolvers, you know how I can tell that you know jack-shiat about pistols?

Revolvers DO fail and their low capacity, generally mediocre ergonomics and slow reload times (certain gun games being the exception) make them another tactical anachronism.
 
2010-12-21 11:51:44 AM  
Kyoki: Revolvers DO fail and their low capacity, generally mediocre ergonomics and slow reload times (certain gun games being the exception) make them another tactical anachronism.

Jerry Miculek is available for comment.
 
2010-12-21 11:52:57 AM  
Kyoki: Revolvers DO fail and their low capacity, generally mediocre ergonomics and slow reload times (certain gun games being the exception) make them another tactical anachronism.

But the Internet insists that the fastest wheelgunner in the world can reload with a speed loader faster than an average, trained shooter with a detachable box magazine.

/agree totally
//finally got that MK time I mentioned a while back
///just under four minutes and only one accidental hit on a no-shoot
////if only the P99 AS wasn't so damn expensive, that trigger is the best I've ever seen on a production pistol
 
2010-12-21 11:55:33 AM  
bookman: 4chan Ambassador: Good. Guns are evil. I used to own a gun when I was a fearful conservative, and at night, it used to whisper in it's deadly metallic voice "Kill someone, shoot your neighbor, destroy, hurt, murder". I was completely powerless against its hypnotic tune, and almost killed my dear sister before I realized how evil and twisted the gun had made me, and in a final act of violence, smashed the gun with my bootstrappy feet.

Now I'm a happy healthy liberal with no need nor want for childish and dangerous things, and forbid in my home all guns, all violence, and especially that pesky Constitution.

Do you have a large sign on your door that says: "ATTENTION: THERE ARE NO GUNS IN THIS HOUSE; THIS IS A GUN FREE HOME."? Extra points if it is in neon, or lit, so it can be seen by passing cars on the street at 3 in the morning.

All the proud anti-gun liberals have them.


Your sarcasm sensors, get them adjusted now.
 
2010-12-21 11:55:52 AM  
jagec: Kyoki: What Mai said. A 5.56 penetrates far less interior wall(s) than many pistols and shotguns.

At first I was going to call bullshiat because a shotgun pellet is not spin stabilized, less aerodynamic, and much slower than a rifle bullet. But damn, you're right, those .223s really do fall apart once they hit something. Glad I did my research so that I didn't end up looking like a fool.

Kyoki: Plus, you now have 7-9 pellets that will each go their own separate ways, resulting in round accountability issues.

I'm still calling bullshiat on this one, though. Buckshot does not random-walk after it leaves the gun, it proceeds in a ballistic path with a SMALL cone of spread. Unless you're William Tell, you shouldn't be shooting at anything that you can't afford to miss by a couple of inches.


The real world is full of items like furniture, toys tools, appliances, you name it. Pellets can and do go astray outside the range. I have a AAR where a shotgun was used to kill a dog during a drug lab raid and a pellet skipped off od the dogs skull and injured one of the officers. Possible with a rifle but less likely.

The other issue is that in situations like an active shooter, hostage rescue or barricaded subject there may be friendlies in the immediate area that still fall into a shotguns pellet spread. A rifle can make a surgical shot and follow up shots within time and area constraints that a shotgun simply cannot touch.

Much like the over penetration issue, the information is out there and quantifiable if you know where to look. I have no reason to simply make it up as I go along. My job makes me responsible for choosing and training with a wide variety of weapons and tactics with severe, real world repercussions. I have to live with anything that I recommend that gets a good guy hurt or killed, so I take my time when I make them.
 
2010-12-21 11:57:35 AM  
Kyoki: Animatronik: Nobody needs an assault weapon unless you plan to shoot up the neighborhood, and the mini 14 is said by many to be a piece o junk (never owned one).

So, you have no experience with the platform, but you'll happily regurgitate an opinion? Gotcha. Regardless of the Mini-14/30/whatevers shortcomings (of which there are many), the error webs gun community would be well served if people didn't just re-spout whatever they'd heard. *sighs*

IMO the best weapon to protect your home is a 357 mag revolver loaded with 38 special. you will hit what you're aiming at and the bullet will not go through your neighbor's house. My second choice is a model 92 or 96 beretta.

The worst weapon is an clunky automatic long gun that could jam.

As someone who has an armory full of Glock 34s and Beretta M9s as well as M1911s and M10 revolvers, you know how I can tell that you know jack-shiat about pistols?

Revolvers DO fail and their low capacity, generally mediocre ergonomics and slow reload times (certain gun games being the exception) make them another tactical anachronism.


The biggest problem with the domestic use of long guns is that they are long. In the relatively cramped quarters of a house you're leading an awful lot of barrel, and should you engage a target that gets past that minimum engagement distance you will be farked. Its better to use them when you've hunkered down and have an established line of fire, like an upstairs bedroom with only one door.
 
2010-12-21 12:00:03 PM  
dittybopper: Jerry Miculek is available for comment.

As I said, certain gun games are outliers, Jerry is a good guy, and I'm writing a review, with his & Brownells blessing on his rifle DVD this quarter. There are SASS shooters that can run lever action rifles and single action pistol at insane speeds, but do those skills have a place in the modern gun fight? Beyond the skills of sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control and follow through, no.
 
2010-12-21 12:01:26 PM  
BayouOtter: The biggest problem with the domestic use of long guns is that they are long. In the relatively cramped quarters of a house you're leading an awful lot of barrel, and should you engage a target that gets past that minimum engagement distance you will be farked.

Civilian length (lacking a SBR tax stamp) M-4geries aren't that long, but until my local shoot house opens this spring I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to clear anything like an indoor space with one. I can replace stuff, thus I practice barricading myself with a good line of fire to the top of the stairwell.

/I just need to figure out how to shoulder a rifle past the tactical baby carrier that becomes necessary this spring
//that was a joke
 
2010-12-21 12:03:56 PM  
Kyoki: dittybopper: Jerry Miculek is available for comment.

As I said, certain gun games are outliers, Jerry is a good guy, and I'm writing a review, with his & Brownells blessing on his rifle DVD this quarter. There are SASS shooters that can run lever action rifles and single action pistol at insane speeds, but do those skills have a place in the modern gun fight? Beyond the skills of sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control and follow through, no.


Dood, this is the *INTERNET*. I can shoot, reload, and shoot this:

img236.imageshack.us

before you can even flick the safety off of your 1911A1 clone.
 
2010-12-21 12:05:02 PM  
Kyoki: As I said, certain gun games are outliers

On a serious note, I interpreted "gun games" to mean electronic shooting games, not things like SASS, etc.
 
2010-12-21 12:08:12 PM  
BayouOtter: The biggest problem with the domestic use of long guns is that they are long. In the relatively cramped quarters of a house you're leading an awful lot of barrel, and should you engage a target that gets past that minimum engagement distance you will be farked. Its better to use them when you've hunkered down and have an established line of fire, like an upstairs bedroom with only one door.

You've never been muzzle thumped have you? I can tell you that a rifle is usable both firing and as an impact weapon within about 2 feet or so.

knightofargh:

/agree totally
//finally got that MK time I mentioned a while back
///just under four minutes and only one accidental hit on a no-shoot

////if only the P99 AS wasn't so damn expensive, that trigger is the best I've ever seen on a production pistol


You do realize that there's no time standard on running the MK with a pistol? The time standard for the MK with a precision rifle from the trunk to the firing line (and then all five shots) is one minute.

I got introduced to a mind f**k in by Paul in at SHI early this month. MK's in the shoothouse as a hostage rescue module. Imagine a 5 man element within 3 feet of each other with rifles taking a shot like that together. *ugh*
 
2010-12-21 12:10:52 PM  
knightofargh: A semi-automatic .223 is a semi-automatic .223,

Eeehhh, yeah, sorta, I see where you're going in this particular argument. If all we're talking about is the ability to send a .233 round downrange, yeah, they are the same thing. The similarities stop shortly after that though.

Kyoki: Regardless of the Mini-14/30/whatevers shortcomings (of which there are many)

The only shortcomings mine has is it's not a tack driver (which is a debatable shortcoming, as I don't need to to be one), and cheap ammo in cheap mags will occasionally jam. If I run decent rounds out of good mags, the bastardly thing is rock solid. Not sub-MOA, but most certainly lethal. I wanted something I could (literally, if necessary) throw in my pickup and never worry about it, and that's exactly what it is. I don't have to worry about the finish, and the stock is nothing exceptional. The scope and mounts are inexpensive yet rock solid. I bought it as a beater gun, and it's performed admirably.
 
2010-12-21 12:14:11 PM  
knightofargh: BayouOtter: The biggest problem with the domestic use of long guns is that they are long. In the relatively cramped quarters of a house you're leading an awful lot of barrel, and should you engage a target that gets past that minimum engagement distance you will be farked.

Civilian length (lacking a SBR tax stamp) M-4geries aren't that long, but until my local shoot house opens this spring I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to clear anything like an indoor space with one. I can replace stuff, thus I practice barricading myself with a good line of fire to the top of the stairwell.

/I just need to figure out how to shoulder a rifle past the tactical baby carrier that becomes necessary this spring
//that was a joke


Well that was mostly my point, if we're talking about citizens defending their homes. A lot of folks don't have the resources/inclination to get SBRs and take the courses on clearing buildings at fancy shoot houses. They just want to keep their homes and families safe, and often are using recreational/hunting firearms as their tools. Using a shotgun to defend the stairwell is a legitimate and savvy tactic (with buckshot or slugs, take your pick).

If you've got to go down the hall to check on your kid, or want to clear the house you'll need a hand free. So a handgun might be more appropriate - for example my DA/SA .44 Magnum brush-hunting revolver, when loaded with .44 Special defense rounds, would do dandy. Using the handgun keeps your non-dominant hand free, which you'll need to open doors, call the cops, or shield your face/torso from getting stabbed or crowbarred.

As with so many things, its about the person using the tool. Proper tactics, planning, and precautions will beat out tricked out equipment any day.
 
2010-12-21 12:15:10 PM  
Kyoki: You do realize that there's no time standard on running the MK with a pistol? The time standard for the MK with a precision rifle from the trunk to the firing line (and then all five shots) is one minute.

I was attempting to add a time limit to simulate stress. I'm figuring if I ever had to take a shot like that I'm going to be under stress. So yes, I realize that there isn't a time limit.

Kyoki: I got introduced to a mind f**k in by Paul in at SHI early this month. MK's in the shoothouse as a hostage rescue module. Imagine a 5 man element within 3 feet of each other with rifles taking a shot like that together. *ugh*

That sounds chaotic at the least. I'm curious as to how effectively that went. I'm guessing limited or zero element communication and timed as well?
 
2010-12-21 12:15:37 PM  
Noticeably F.A.T.: The only shortcomings mine has is it's not a tack driver (which is a debatable shortcoming, as I don't need to to be one), and cheap ammo in cheap mags will occasionally jam. If I run decent rounds out of good mags, the bastardly thing is rock solid. Not sub-MOA, but most certainly lethal.

That sounds like an invitation to post this diagnostic target:

i55.tinypic.com
 
2010-12-21 12:17:04 PM  
Noticeably F.A.T.:
The only shortcomings mine has is it's not a tack driver (which is a debatable shortcoming, as I don't need to to be one), and cheap ammo in cheap mags will occasionally jam.


Lets see:

Accuracy (mentioned)
Lack of reliable standard capacity magazines (mentioned)
Safety inside the trigger guard.
Repair parts must be hand fitted at Ruger (they break with hard use and then have to be sent back to Ruger).
Lack of decent optic mounting solutions.
Etc, etc, etc.
 
2010-12-21 12:18:41 PM  
Animatronik: Ruger makes a gun identical to the AR-15? News to me.

Ruger SR-556:
www.defensereview.com

Let me rephrase: Nobody needs a small caliber semiautomatic rifle with a 30-round mag. Not for the home or hunting. And the .223, though maybe a little underpowered in combat, is perfectly capable of going through several walls/houses. That's one big advantage of 00 buckshot - right punch at the right distance.

I would like to get an M1A1 carbine though. But that fires essentially pistol ammo.

Try doing a little reading.

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=26
 
2010-12-21 12:18:50 PM  
dittybopper:
I can sort-of understand *WHY* they might blame guns for their problems. Violence is overwhelmingly a problem in the black community: The homicide rate overall in the US is 6.09 per 100,000. The non-Hispanic White rate is less than half that, at 2.74 per 100,000, whereas the non-Hispanic Black rate is a sickening 23.00 per 100,000, almost 10 times the White rate.

You can't blame poverty for it either. There are almost twice as many poor Whites in the US as there are poor Blacks (16 million vs 9.9 million Blacks in 2007), yet there were 8,746 Black homicide victims vs. 5,512 White homicide victims. To 'equalize' this, there were (5512/16,000,000*100,000) = 34.45 homicides per 100,000 poor whites, and (8746/9,900,000*100,000) = 88.34 homicide per 100,000 poor blacks, a rate almost three times higher.
Sources (CDC WISQARS Injury Mortality Reports for homicide data, and US Census Historical Poverty Tables for poverty stats.


A big part of the disparity is that a lot of poor whites live in rural areas whereas large lower-income black populations are almost exclusively urban, the higher population density(amongst other factors) helps to increase violence in urban areas.
 
2010-12-21 12:18:58 PM  
Noticeably F.A.T.: Eeehhh, yeah, sorta, I see where you're going in this particular argument. If all we're talking about is the ability to send a .233 round downrange, yeah, they are the same thing. The similarities stop shortly after that though.

I was attempting to explain that "assault weapon" is a meaningless term, as in the post I initially responded to. For the purposes of the most common cosmetic feature bans, a mini-14 and AR-15 fill a similar niche and are functionally identical.
 
2010-12-21 12:20:15 PM  
Whoops. That last post was supposed to have from "Let me rephrase..." to "...pistol ammo." in italics. Animatronik's words, not mine.
 
2010-12-21 12:20:32 PM  
You forgot one in that pic...

i852.photobucket.com
 
2010-12-21 12:22:07 PM  
Kyoki: BayouOtter: The biggest problem with the domestic use of long guns is that they are long. In the relatively cramped quarters of a house you're leading an awful lot of barrel, and should you engage a target that gets past that minimum engagement distance you will be farked. Its better to use them when you've hunkered down and have an established line of fire, like an upstairs bedroom with only one door.

You've never been muzzle thumped have you? I can tell you that a rifle is usable both firing and as an impact weapon within about 2 feet or so.


I admit, I'm no expert and I've not been muzzle thumped by a rifle. I'm not a cop or a military man, just a hunter. If you say it is, I'll take your word. I just wouldn't want to try it with any of my deer rifles.

/Please don't call me a Fudd, I beg ya.
 
2010-12-21 12:22:51 PM  
dittybopper: That sounds like an invitation to post this diagnostic target:

I LOL'd hard over that one.

www.thehotzoneonline.com
You magnificent bastard
 
2010-12-21 12:23:55 PM  
BayouOtter: I admit, I'm no expert and I've not been muzzle thumped by a rifle. I'm not a cop or a military man, just a hunter. If you say it is, I'll take your word. I just wouldn't want to try it with any of my deer rifles.

/Please don't call me a Fudd, I beg ya.


A rifle within 2 feet is an 8 pound club, you Fudd :p.

I bet you are suspicious of any rifle without walnut furniture as well!
 
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