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(Hot Air)   Wikileaks: Cuban doctors walked out of a screening of Michael Moore's Sicko and the film was banned in Cuba due to the "blatant misrepresentation of healthcare in Cuba"   (hotair.com) divider line 492
    More: Obvious, Cuban, Wikileaks, Havana, stossel  
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4381 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Dec 2010 at 5:54 AM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-12-18 04:25:14 PM  
gopher321: vernonFL: #1. Moore is a douche.



Since when?


Since about Bowling for Columbine.
 
2010-12-18 04:25:42 PM  
Galemp: Michael Moore's lost all credibility with me since Fahrenheit 9/11. He used to make documentaries, now he makes editorials. It's shameful.

Moore has always made polemics that follow the documentary format.
 
2010-12-18 04:27:36 PM  
Magruda: Do some research before you start typing. Are you really this dumb?

Did you really just ask Phil Herup that?
 
2010-12-18 04:38:05 PM  
Magruda: Do some research before you start typing. Are you really this dumb?


Are you really that desperate?


I was not referring to a health insurance issues at all. I was referring to health care providers.

Way to move the goal posts.
 
2010-12-18 04:40:09 PM  
Phil Herup:
GeneralJim: Health care in different places in the world is difficult to compare.

Apparently infant mortality stats are all you need to make sweeping judgements if you listen to the mouth breathers on the left.

Yep. I guess I should have said "difficult to compare FAIRLY." That was what I was getting at. There certainly is a leftist trend to ignore a mountain of information, to focus on one only tangentially relevant point. 'Sup wi' dat?
 
2010-12-18 05:04:11 PM  
GeneralJim: Yep. I guess I should have said "difficult to compare FAIRLY." That was what I was getting at. There certainly is a leftist trend to ignore a mountain of information, to focus on one only tangentially relevant point. 'Sup wi' dat?

There's plenty of ways to compare systems fairly. Look at the postings above when I mention neonatal/perinatal mortality. Perinatal/neonatal mortality measures stillbirths plus any deaths up to 7 days from the time of birth. The only refutation in this thread is "they're lying about the numbers!" But no evidence has been presented to support that, and WHO also does household surveys when it comes to neonatal mortality.

Take the best US state you want, except Hawaii, and compare it to Canada on the whole -- which includes poor and immigrants and Canada still outperforms the US.

Take Cuba and it competes reasonably on many metrics with the US.
 
2010-12-18 05:10:17 PM  
...and it's a third world country.
 
2010-12-18 05:19:13 PM  
bigdavediode:
There's plenty of ways to compare systems fairly. Look at the postings above when I mention neonatal/perinatal mortality. Perinatal/neonatal mortality measures stillbirths plus any deaths up to 7 days from the time of birth. The only refutation in this thread is "they're lying about the numbers!" But no evidence has been presented to support that, and WHO also does household surveys when it comes to neonatal mortality.

Really? They only get the households to survey from official sources. Even if those sources are totally honest, many consider certain births to be "miscarriages" rather than a birth.

Actually, to just look at n/p statistics would be to go through the U.S. statistics, and remove cases that don't meet the foreign stats...

But that leaves other problems. Americans are fat. That results in health problems, more health problems than in other places. I don't think Americans being fat is a result of a poor medical system. Do you? How do we balance that?

And, different backgrounds predispose people to different expected longevity. How to balance that? Or differing death by violence rates? If someone gets shot in the head, is that indicative of bad medical care?

And, of course, all of this assumes that the sole goal of life would be measured in years. Does hanging around in acute pain for an extra three months, helpless, add anything to the quality of life, or to health, for that matter? Would keeping every person on life support machinery for an extra ten years make us a medical superpower? I think not.

So, yes, it's another case of liberal "flat thinking." Not an ounce of nuance in the group. Find ONE metric that makes capitalism look bad, and run with it. Boring.

 
2010-12-18 05:41:45 PM  
GeneralJim: But that leaves other problems. Americans are fat. That results in health problems, more health problems than in other places. I don't think Americans being fat is a result of a poor medical system. Do you? How do we balance that?

Ahh, an actual suggestion for differentiation between demographics, rather than just another unsupported assertion. Okay, I'll bite.

Take the thinnest, whitest, longest living state in the union (except for Hawaii which has all-but universal health care) and compare it to Canada. In other words, bias the other direction -- take the best of the free market and compare it to the worst of single-payer.

Guess what? The US loses.

And, different backgrounds predispose people to different expected longevity. How to balance that? Or differing death by violence rates? If someone gets shot in the head, is that indicative of bad medical care?

Then use outcomes for procedures. Guess what? In Canada they count everybody, in the US everybody is probably NOT counted, and the US loses.
 
2010-12-18 05:43:32 PM  
I shouldn't have written "loses" since it depends on the procedures -- I should have written that Canada is comparable to the US in outcomes for procedures, and treats the poorest and those who wouldn't even get treatment in the US and thus wouldn't be counted in survival rates. Factoring that in, Canada does extremely well.
 
2010-12-18 06:04:02 PM  
Phil Herup: Magruda: Do some research before you start typing. Are you really this dumb?


Are you really that desperate?


I was not referring to a health insurance issues at all. I was referring to health care providers.

Way to move the goal posts.


You see a difference between health insurance providers and health care providers? There are no goal post to move for you since everyone gets a medal in your olympics.
 
2010-12-18 06:16:55 PM  
Gee, the American Embassy said that? I may have to re-evaluate everything I think I know about Michael Moore's satiric propaganda.

Wait, isn't the American Embassy the one with the giant electronic billboard telling Cubans what to think about Cuba (Good Ole American Truth to Sell Everywhere(TM))?

Isn't that sort of like a XIXth century version of XXIst century Wikileaks using XXth century electronic billboard technology?

*Think about Good Ole American Truth to Sell Everywhere. Think about the acronym.
 
2010-12-18 06:20:39 PM  
I would like to thank the Wikileak Traitors for bringing this Wikileak to my attention.

I googled Wikileak Sicko and got this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/18/wikileaks-us-diplomats-story-cuba-b a nned-sicko-film

Moore film Sicko was 'not banned' in Cuba

Film-maker says diplomats made up the story to discredit film that showed healthcare was worse in US than Cuba

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* David Batty
* guardian.co.uk, Saturday 18 December 2010 15.26 GMT

Michael Moore Film-maker Michael Moore speaks at a rally in California in June 2007 before a screening of his film, Sicko. Photograph: Max Whittaker/Reuters

American diplomats made up a story that Cuba banned Michael Moore's 2007 documentary, Sicko, in an attempt to discredit the film which painted an unflattering picture of the US healthcare system, the film-maker said today.

A confidential US embassy cable released by WikiLeaks claimed that Castro's government banned the Oscar-nominated film because it painted such a "mythically" favourable picture of Cuba's healthcare system that the authorities feared it could lead to a "popular backlash".

But Moore said that far from being supressed by Havana, the film - which attempted to discredit the US healthcare system by highlighting what it claimed was the excellence of the Cuban system - was shown on national television.

The film-maker said on his blog that the diplomatic cable, dated 31 January 2008, was "a stunning look at the Orwellian nature of how bureaucrats for the state spin their lies and try to recreate reality (I assume to placate their bosses and tell them what they want to hear)".

He added: "The entire nation of Cuba was shown the film on national television on April 25, 2008! The Cubans embraced the film so much so it became one of those rare American movies that received a theatrical distribution in Cuba. I personally ensured that a 35mm print got to the Film Institute in Havana. Screenings of 'Sicko' were set up in towns all across the country."

The confidential US memo claims that when the film was shown to a group of Cuban doctors, some became so "disturbed at the blatant misrepresentation of healthcare in Cuba that they left the room".

It claims the film was banned because the Cuban government "knows the film is a myth and does not want to risk a popular backlash by showing to Cubans facilities that are clearly not available to the vast majority of them".

Sicko investigated healthcare in the US by comparing the for-profit, non-universal US system with the non-profit universal health care systems of other countries, including Cuba, France and the UK.

It was nominated for an Oscar for best documentary feature but was also castigated for being naive and tendentious.

The cable comes from the United States Interests Section in Havana (USINT) - staffed by US foreign service personnel and local staff employed by the department of state, the unit is formally a section of the Embassy of Switzerland, although it operates independently of the Swiss in virtually all but protocol respects.

The secret 2008 cable is based on reports from the USINT's foreign service health practitioner (FSHP) supposedly based on her conversations with local people, unauthorised visits to Cuban hospitals, and experience of helping USINT American and Cuban personnel access healthcare.

The cable describes a visit made by the FSHP to the Hermanos Ameijeiras hospital in October 2007. Built in 1982, the newly renovated hospital was used in Michael Moore's film as evidence of the high quality of healthcare available to all Cubans.

However, according to the FSHP, the only way a Cuban can get access to the hospital is through a bribe or contacts inside the hospital administration. "Cubans are reportedly very resentful that the best hospital in Havana is 'off-limits' to them," the memo reveals.

According to the FSHP, a more "accurate" view of the healthcare experience of Cubans can be seen at the Calixto García Hospital. "FSHP believes that if Michael Moore really wanted the 'same care as local Cubans', this is where he should have gone," the cable states.

A 2007 visit by the FSHP to this "dilapidated" hospital, built in the 1800s, was "reminiscent of a scene from some of the poorest countries in the world", the cable adds.

The memo noted that even the Cuban ruling elite leave Cuba when they need medical care. Fidel Castro, for example, brought in a Spanish doctor during his health crisis in 2006. The vice minister of health, Abelardo Ramírez, went to France for gastric cancer surgery. The neurosurgeon who heads CIMEQ [Centro de Investigaciones Médico-Quirúrgicas] hospital - widely regarded as one of the best in Cuba - came to England for eye surgery, returning periodically for checkups.

"After living in Cuba for two and a half years, treating numerous Cuban employees at USINT, and interacting with many other Cubans, the FSHP believes... preventive medicine in Cuba is a bygone ideal, rather than the standard practice of care," the memo concludes.

Moore said on his blog that the cable came in the wake of the US health insurance industry deciding to "to spend millions" to go after him and, if necessary, "push Michael Moore off a cliff".

He said the industry worked with anti-Castro Cubans in Miami in order to have them speak out and smear the film.

"So, on January 31, 2008, a state department official stationed in Havana took a made-up story and sent it back to his HQ in Washington," said Moore.
 
2010-12-18 06:22:22 PM  
Are you an American citizen who is tired of not being able to get into the best and newest hospital facilities because you don't have enough American dollars?

Well, move to Cuba! You'll be able to not get into the best and newest hospital facilities there because you don't have enough American dollars.

But it will take a hell of a lot less American dollars to live like a king, so there's that any way.
 
2010-12-18 06:25:59 PM  
so this is Bush state dept. propaganda that Hot Air and the Guardian UK bit on?

not surprising. I'm sure the lie will be spread far and wide as the truth is being ignored.
 
2010-12-18 06:28:04 PM  
brantgoose: Are you an American citizen who is tired of not being able to get into the best and newest hospital facilities because you don't have enough American dollars?

Well, move to Cuba! You'll be able to not get into the best and newest hospital facilities there because you don't have enough American dollars.

But it will take a hell of a lot less American dollars to live like a king, so there's that any way.


I hear it's a very bootstrappy place. Low taxes. Minimal govt services. Lots of Christians who are anti abortion. an ideal Republican utopia.
 
2010-12-18 06:30:24 PM  
This is so funny.

The hypocrites are using a Wikileak Traitor(TM) documents from the US diplomatic mission in Cuba (well, technically, it may be in Switzerland) to taunt liberals supposedly enamored of Wikileaks (although I can't for the life of me say that there is anything in them that I didn't already know or suspect at 99% confidence levels).

Oh my! There's more than enough information given in the Hotair post to track down the original embassy-generated text in a matter of moments.

Not to mention lead me to the Guardian and thence to Michael Moore's blog:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/viva-wikileaks

And thus to this:

So, on January 31, 2008, a State Department official stationed in Havana took a made up story and sent it back to his HQ in Washington. Here's what they concocted:

XXXXXXXXXXXX stated that Cuban authorities have banned Michael Moore's documentary, "Sicko," as being subversive. Although the film's intent is to discredit the U.S. healthcare system by highlighting the excellence of the Cuban system, he said the regime knows the film is a myth and does not want to risk a popular backlash by showing to Cubans facilities that are clearly not available to the vast majority of them.

Sounds convincing, eh?! There's only one problem -- 'Sicko' had just been playing in Cuban theaters. Then the entire nation of Cuba was shown the film on national television on April 25, 2008! The Cubans embraced the film so much so it became one of those rare American movies that received a theatrical distribution in Cuba. I personally ensured that a 35mm print got to the Film Institute in Havana. Screenings of 'Sicko' were set up in towns all across the country.

Cool. So, apparently Hotair is using Wikileaks for propaganda purposes. Spinning it to make Michael Moore look like a liar whilest lying themselves.

THE MOVIE WAS SHOWN ON CUBAN TELEVISION.

Well, a lot of Cubans may or may not own TVs, but there's a safe bet to be made that most of the bars and cafés in Cuba have one to enable patrons to watch football.
 
2010-12-18 06:31:52 PM  
Secret US Government cable from 1961, just prior to the Bay of Pigs Invasion:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/19610406.pdf
 
2010-12-18 06:36:20 PM  
Has anyone else posted Michael Moore's response to this "leak?" It absolutely tears it apart. I don't think it could possibly be posted enough in this thread it's so relevant.

Link (new window)
 
2010-12-18 06:36:42 PM  
Hobodeluxe: brantgoose: Are you an American citizen who is tired of not being able to get into the best and newest hospital facilities because you don't have enough American dollars?

Well, move to Cuba! You'll be able to not get into the best and newest hospital facilities there because you don't have enough American dollars.

But it will take a hell of a lot less American dollars to live like a king, so there's that any way.

I hear it's a very bootstrappy place. Low taxes. Minimal govt services. Lots of Christians who are anti abortion. an ideal Republican utopia.


But not as utopian as Costa Rica, with it's universal medicare system. Not to mention being the greenest and happiest country on Earth. Read about what Costa Rica has done to preserve its magnificent rain forests. Read about why it tops so many studies of well-being despite being quite poor.

It's so utopian that Rush Limbaugh has threatened to move there to get away from Socialistobama.

He knows what he's doing.
 
2010-12-18 06:55:17 PM  
The really funny thing in this thread is that the conservatards and their troll minions, in their retarded attempts to "humiliate" a known douche like Michael Moore and the other "smug, sneering libbo creeps" ad nauseam, have no problem making themselves look even more douchey than their target(s). Excellent work, uber-reich douches!

/golf clap
//point, point
///laugh, laugh
 
2010-12-18 06:57:01 PM  
Phil Herup: Well the morans are out this morning chanting the typical points as if they know what even the hell they mean.


Infant mortality!
Lifespan!
Preventable Deaths
Maternal mortality!!!

The ignorance is not preventable, because it is willful.


Phil Herup, get busy living or get busy dying. Preferably the latter.
 
2010-12-18 06:58:58 PM  
Michael Moore did a TV Nation episode in which he pitted a Cuban, an American and a Canadian medical team against each other in a sort of reality game. The Canadian team "won", but in the companion book to TV Nation, Moore admits that the Cubans actually won and that he was pressured to change this by suits, so it was the Canadian team that won when the show aired.

I have both the book and the TV shows.

Moore freely admits that the Cuban doctors were underfunded and horribly equipped by American standards (they didn't have the machine that goes 'ping', for starters, because that costs extra).

They won any way in several areas of service, which isn't really surprising because in poor countries, medical personal constantly work "miracles" despite abominable conditions by western wealthy nation standards.

THROWING MONEY AT THEM DOES NOT SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS.

Just because doctors are poorly paid in poor countries doesn't mean that they aren't good doctors. And just because leftist regimes don't make their doctors into private sector millionaires, doesn't mean that these regimes don't get good results for very little money. Au contraire, paying less and using less over-priced tests and equipment and facilities allow them to get very cost-effective results that sometimes exceed western outcomes.

I have had a glance at the original cable on a Wikileaks mirror site and one thing that I note is that they describe the hospital in question as mainly serving paying customers and serving them with luxurious conditions. Where have we seen this user-pay two-tiered system before? Oh, wait! Everywhere!

You either ration things by giving them to the guy with the money or you ration them by some other system, such as contacts, bribes, or need, real triage by doctors and nurses. In some countries, the money gets all system is not preferred. But the outcomes are often very much the same--good or bad.

If the USA really cared about Cubans it would lift the embargo which deprives them of two thirds of the modern medicines and equipment. Then Cuban hospitals could have all the more medical tourists who would subsidize all the more Cuban comrades.

It's politics. But the fact is, that money is not the answer to all questions, although it goes a long way to answering a few questions where luxuries can be paid for.

Lots of Americans go abroad for medical care because they can afford the best foreign specialists and hospitals, or because they can't afford American specialists and hospitals.

So?

This cable is a pure propaganda document. It's clear that they selected only tales of woe from anonymous whiners for propaganda use back home.

It might be factually correct on most points, allowing for the anonymous sources, but it is almost certainly horribly slanted.

I've read many articles about Canadian issues by American Ambassadors to Canada. These secret and confidential cables aren't much different from the harangues that they publish openly, so I am not surprised. I've also seen a lot of Canadian cables.

Wee-haw! Too bad we're too unimportant to leak. It would be so hilarious if anybody got to read anything marked FOR CANADIAN EYES ONLY.

But it would be more of the same, and a lot duller than American dirty laundry.

Or else I'd be on a Canadian site finding out who our gay former Minister of Defence is sleeping with lately.
 
2010-12-18 07:16:47 PM  
I'd post the link to the Wikileak, but hey, I figure that I'll never be allowed into the United States any way if they ever link my web posts to me personally. Some of these border guys are nuts to start out with, even before they decide on a career as a petty functionary.

But here's all the information you need to find it on a Wikileaks mirror site:

Reference ID Created Released Classification Origin
08HAVANA103 2008-01-31 19:07 2010-12-17 21:09 CONFIDENTIAL US Interests Section Havana

In fact, the date January 31, 2008 will do it once you have chosen a mirror.

Bear in mind that stories of poor patients not being able to get a doctor and being forced to go to a lousy clinic are universal and that wait times in Detroit or Washington, DC, can be as long as any where on Earth.

Conditions are bad in Cuba. No doubt about that. That the embargo is the heaviest load that Cubans have to bear is also not in doubt. The cable observes that preventative medicine is a by-gone ideal. Most of that preventative medicine is embargoed.

I imagine that the hardships and shortages weed out the bad doctors and nurses, the lazy, the stupid and the vicious. I imagine that poverty focuses the minds of these intelligent, hard-working dedicated survivors wonderfully.

Not that I would recommend it as a cure for bloated bureaucracy, insurance companies, HMOs, political crap, etc. But it isn't as bad as it might be.

The doctor who complained of working 14 hours every second day is obviously not the rich surgeon I met who failed to complain of 58 hour shifts on call, two or three days off in Canada. Mind you, he was high on coke most of the time so he didn't really care.

Fourteen hours every two days isn't that bad, is it? That only works out to two seven hour shifts.
 
2010-12-18 07:16:56 PM  
So of all the links FARK chooses to greenlight, they pick the one that doesn't tell the truth, instead of the one from Michael Moore himself with evidence that the headline is just so much bullshiat?

Typical. Pussies.
 
2010-12-18 07:33:35 PM  
WhyteRaven74: fusillade762: to the cable on the Guardian's website.

Interesting that the Guardian would take a shot at Moore. Given the Guardian is pretty left leaning, that's left leaning by English standards not American ones. Then again, it is English so they do quite like it when you don't sound like a daft idiot. Which reading their article sounds like why they're going after Moore, for being a daft idiot.


? What lefties in the US treat Moore like a sacred cow? As with most "leftists" all the ones I know of take a "when he's right he's right, when he's wrong he's wrong" approach with the guy.
 
2010-12-18 09:31:54 PM  
downpaymentblues: I can answer this based on my logical preferences:

If there is a story about good health care in England, that is an apt comparison to what is going to happen in the United States.

If there is a story that makes health care in Cuba, UK, Canada, or anywhere else look bad, it is a GOP lie.

The comparison is only valid if it suits my pre-existing beliefs regarding health care. It has nothing to do with the specifics of how global health statistics are determined.


Hey looky there!
 
2010-12-18 09:32:08 PM  
I've read a chunk of the posts. Where the fark are you people going to get your healthcare? I have a job, job provides insurance, I go to my doctor in a nice, clean office, he diagnoses problems, I go to nice, modern, clean hospital, get treatment, eat shiatty food and watch tv for a couple of days, go home, pay bill. I've read posts in here like America's hospitals are worse than a Tijuana quick care. How the hell would Cuba be better? If I feel like I'm going to have a heart attack right now, I can call an ambulance and they will try to save my life while bringing me to a hospital that will try to do the same in less than an hour.

And enough with the rich and powerful get the best care.....Fark that. I'm neither and get great care. If the rich get better care than me, so be it, someone busted their ass for that money at some point and they deserve it. I'm sick and tired of low lives not wanting to bust their ass but have EXACTLY what the evil rich have. To quote the Departed "This is America, if you don't make money, you're a douchebag." I have endless sympathy for the elderly, sick, and disabled. But if you are typing on this site, can afford a computer, internet, electricity, shelter etc., and are STILL biatching about the rich and Cuba having better healthcare because Michael F'ing Moore says so....Fark you. Get a farking job.
 
2010-12-18 09:54:06 PM  
s2s2s2: downpaymentblues: I can answer this based on my logical preferences:

If there is a story about good health care in England, that is an apt comparison to what is going to happen in the United States.

If there is a story that makes health care in Cuba, UK, Canada, or anywhere else look bad, it is a GOP lie.

The comparison is only valid if it suits my pre-existing beliefs regarding health care. It has nothing to do with the specifics of how global health statistics are determined.

Hey looky there!


except that only happens in your mind, not in the real world.
 
2010-12-18 09:57:05 PM  
broktune: If I feel like I'm going to have a heart attack right now, I can call an ambulance and they will try to save my life while bringing me to a hospital that will try to do the same in less than an hour.

Enjoy your shorter lifespan.
 
2010-12-18 10:56:30 PM  
It was pathetically staged. I felt bad for the doctors in the movie. To take hard-working, educated, and important people that help your society and transform them into propaganda or set pieces.... it's sad. But that is Cuba, and that's Michael Moore.
 
2010-12-18 11:47:24 PM  
broktune: I've read a chunk of the posts. Where the fark are you people going to get your healthcare? I have a job, job provides insurance, I go to my doctor in a nice, clean office, he diagnoses problems, I go to nice, modern, clean hospital, get treatment, eat shiatty food and watch tv for a couple of days, go home, pay bill. I've read posts in here like America's hospitals are worse than a Tijuana quick care. How the hell would Cuba be better? If I feel like I'm going to have a heart attack right now, I can call an ambulance and they will try to save my life while bringing me to a hospital that will try to do the same in less than an hour.

And enough with the rich and powerful get the best care.....Fark that. I'm neither and get great care. If the rich get better care than me, so be it, someone busted their ass for that money at some point and they deserve it. I'm sick and tired of low lives not wanting to bust their ass but have EXACTLY what the evil rich have. To quote the Departed "This is America, if you don't make money, you're a douchebag." I have endless sympathy for the elderly, sick, and disabled. But if you are typing on this site, can afford a computer, internet, electricity, shelter etc., and are STILL biatching about the rich and Cuba having better healthcare because Michael F'ing Moore says so....Fark you. Get a farking job.


yeah those millions of Americans who are out of work will get right on that. Especially those with medical conditions. It's so easy to get a job if you write down that you have some medical problems on the application. it moves you right to the top of the stack.
 
2010-12-18 11:53:34 PM  
wolvernova: It was pathetically staged. I felt bad for the doctors in the movie. To take hard-working, educated, and important people that help your society and transform them into propaganda or set pieces.... it's sad. But that is Cuba, and that's Michael Moore.

911avisen.dk

Kinda like the GOP and 9/11 first responders?
 
2010-12-19 12:47:18 AM  
broktune: Fark you. Get a farking job

Spoken like someone who cares only for himself. Do you know who the biggest recipents of welfare in this country are? Those rich farks whom you seem to think earned all of their money.
 
2010-12-19 01:09:01 AM  
downpaymentblues: except that only happens in your mind, not in the real world.

Awesome comeback, bro.
 
2010-12-19 01:24:45 AM  
GeneralJim: Medical care here is the equal of any. Yes, it's WAY too expensive, and unevenly distributed -- but these are more insurance problems than problems with the medical system. YES, we have lifestyle habits that doctors rail against ineffectively; I don't blame the medical system for sedentary lifestyles and poor eating habits. Do you? We also have a diverse population, "enhanced" by many poor illegal immigrants.

Health care in different places in the world is difficult to compare. Part of the problem with expense is that Americans pay for drug development with our prescription prices, and the rest of the world gets to skip that. This is evidenced in the fact that the cheapest way to get medications made in the U.S. is to first ship them to Canada, or another country, and then buy them from there.

Also, as the various English-speaking and European countries have drifted further into socialized medicine, innovations in those countries have dropped off; America now does an inordinate amount of the R&D for the world's health care system. Socialized medicine is about evenly distributing what's there, and not so much about coming up with new and exciting technologies, drugs, and procedures.


It seems that many profitable drug companies are located in the US. I haven't been able to find statistics on government spending by country for drug R&D. I would also point out that those same prescription costs are incurred throughout the world. American companies do profit from selling their medications elsewhere in the world and they have been actively lobbying against generics produced abroad.

The insinuation that America is subsidizing drug development for the rest of the world ignores that these same companies are profiting in every other country they sell the drugs.
 
2010-12-19 03:02:09 AM  
News flash! Republicans now call Wikileaks "necessary for American debate!" in light of Wikileaks criticizing a liberal!
 
2010-12-19 03:47:47 AM  
s2s2s2: downpaymentblues: except that only happens in your mind, not in the real world.

Awesome comeback, bro.


Just stating fact. I've seen you both point to England's health care system as an example of what will happen in the United States AND ignore the good things about medical care in other countries because it "can't be compared".

That's a real world example. Not generalities. Specific to you.
 
2010-12-19 07:49:16 AM  
bigdavediode: Take the best US state you want, except Hawaii, and compare it to Canada on the whole -- which includes poor and immigrants and Canada still outperforms the US.

Take Cuba and it competes reasonably on many metrics with the US.




This is a huge pile of bullshiat.


America has the highest quality of health care in the world. We are the gold standard.

Why do devout leftists try so hard to think of reasons to make it look like it doesn't? You use the silliest metric which do not mean a damn thing. They do not take into account the infinite variable at play.

What medical training do most of you critics have? As you run around screaming infant mortality, and amenable deaths like you understand the dynamics at play even a little bit.
 
2010-12-19 07:49:59 AM  
Phil Herup: bigdavediode: Take the best US state you want, except Hawaii, and compare it to Canada on the whole -- which includes poor and immigrants and Canada still outperforms the US.

Take Cuba and it competes reasonably on many metrics with the US.



This is a huge pile of bullshiat.


America has the highest quality of health care in the world. We are the gold standard.

Why do devout leftists try so hard to think of reasons to make it look like it doesn't? You use the silliest metric which do not mean a damn thing. They do not take into account the infinite variable at play.

What medical training do most of you critics have? As you run around screaming infant mortality, and amenable deaths like you understand the dynamics at play even a little bit.


Ahh the gut feeling of phail herup is here.
 
2010-12-19 09:13:22 AM  
drewkumo:
It seems that many profitable drug companies are located in the US. I haven't been able to find statistics on government spending by country for drug R&D. I would also point out that those same prescription costs are incurred throughout the world. American companies do profit from selling their medications elsewhere in the world and they have been actively lobbying against generics produced abroad.

The insinuation that America is subsidizing drug development for the rest of the world ignores that these same companies are profiting in every other country they sell the drugs.

Yeah, almost ALL profitable drug companies are in the U.S. That was kind of my point. And I'm not "insinuating" that America is subsidising drug development, I'm STATING it. Sure, they make profit in other countries, but they get back their R&D here. Read the freaking WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE. (new window)

We also do way more than our share of developing new drugs, which often save money by eliminating hospital stays. Again, read the above article.

So, what the Fark are you even arguing? That prices are fair because the drug companies are making money? Is your post just random gainsaying blurting?

 
2010-12-19 09:26:04 AM  
wolvernova: It was pathetically staged. I felt bad for the doctors in the movie. To take hard-working, educated, and important people that help your society and transform them into propaganda or set pieces.... it's sad. But that is Cuba, and that's Michael Moore.

It is sad, isn't it? It's just typical propaganda, typical for a third-world country like Cuba which exploits it's best for craven political motives.
 
2010-12-19 09:33:05 AM  
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2010-12-19 09:45:21 AM  
GeneralJim: Yeah, almost ALL profitable drug companies are in the U.S. That was kind of my point. And I'm not "insinuating" that America is subsidising drug development, I'm STATING it. Sure, they make profit in other countries, but they get back their R&D here. Read the freaking WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE. (new window)

So you make an assertion and to support your assertion you cite a wiki that anyone can edit.

Here's some facts: 30 years ago 65 percent of the new pharmaceutical discoveries were discovered in Europe, not the US. Now it's only about 40% of the new pharmaceutical discoveries are discovered in Europe. "The reason for the mass exodus of pharmaceutical scientists from Europe to the USA is the lure of more money, enabled by exorbitant U.S. pharmaceutical profits as engendered by a failed and exploitative patent policy."

Ignoring all the other countries production, of course.

Costs are high in the US not because it's "subsidizing" discoveries but because there's so much excessive profit and overcharging potential. There's no reason to assume that if the US stopped indulging pharma companies so much that European discoveries would not balance out again.

Comparing Pharmaceutical and Biotechnology Innovation in the United States and Europe : The Key Player is Venture Capital Financing and not Patents
 
2010-12-19 09:50:32 AM  
bigdavediode:
So you make an assertion and to support your assertion you cite a wiki that anyone can edit.

Here's some facts: 30 years ago 65 percent of the new pharmaceutical discoveries were discovered in Europe, not the US. Now it's only about 40% of the new pharmaceutical discoveries are discovered in Europe. "The reason for the mass exodus of pharmaceutical scientists from Europe to the USA is the lure of more money, enabled by exorbitant U.S. pharmaceutical profits as engendered by a failed and exploitative patent policy."

So, I make an assertion, twice, and you argue with me by backing me up, while disparaging the source I used. Interesting. Can you pat your head and rub your belly at the same time?

 
2010-12-19 09:54:14 AM  
Hobodeluxe: wolvernova: It was pathetically staged. I felt bad for the doctors in the movie. To take hard-working, educated, and important people that help your society and transform them into propaganda or set pieces.... it's sad. But that is Cuba, and that's Michael Moore.

Kinda like the GOP and 9/11 first responders?


Stay classy, douche.

bigdavediode: It is sad, isn't it? It's just typical propaganda, typical for a third-world country like Cuba which exploits it's best for craven political motives.

It doesn't matter whether they are third world or not, it's pathetic. OOH OOH OOH GEORGE BUSH! Get a life.
 
2010-12-19 10:04:11 AM  
GeneralJim: So, I make an assertion, twice, and you argue with me by backing me up, while disparaging the source I used. Interesting. Can you pat your head and rub your belly at the same time?

Wikipedia is not actually a source. And you can make an assertion even three times and that doesn't mean anything -- it's just repetition. Unless, of course, you repeat the quote from the Necronomicon to raise the dead.
 
2010-12-19 10:06:47 AM  
wolvernova: It doesn't matter whether they are third world or not, it's pathetic. OOH OOH OOH GEORGE BUSH! Get a life.

I agree, it is pathetic. Thank God those soldiers weren't just being used and exploited and specifically signed up to stare at a guy's back.

Remember, it's not propaganda when the Republicans do it.
 
2010-12-19 10:27:35 AM  
Phil Herup: America has the highest quality of health care in the world. We are the gold standard.

[citation needed]
 
2010-12-19 10:55:33 AM  
HeartBurnKid: [citation needed]



[eyeroll]


I have already had this discussion with you and you conceded that it is the highest quality of care. Even the WHO says that the USA is number one when it comes to responding to the needs of the patient.
 
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