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(Hot Air)   Wikileaks: Cuban doctors walked out of a screening of Michael Moore's Sicko and the film was banned in Cuba due to the "blatant misrepresentation of healthcare in Cuba"   (hotair.com) divider line 492
    More: Obvious, Cuban, Wikileaks, Havana, stossel  
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4380 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Dec 2010 at 5:54 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-12-18 11:16:11 AM
Fail in Human Form: where are your sources supporting those claims?

So you disregard the video because it doesn't support your claims ?
I can bring in lots of evidence but i have a feeling you'll disregard them as well.
 
2010-12-18 11:16:56 AM
Phil Herup: ColdFusion: infant mortality rate


LOL... such a tired and debunked talking point.

I just love it when ignorant people embrace this nonsense spewed by the left and left wing organizations like the WHO as credible and defining of anything.

The best place to have a baby is in the US. The best place to have any health care is in the US.

Do you have to do some research? Probably. But that is true in all aspects of life.


Your guy, the guy who you said was doing awesome, CITED INFANT MORTALITY.

Stop huffing the Nitrous, Phil.
 
2010-12-18 11:18:06 AM
IamKaiserSoze!!!: Lumi: sendtodave: FailOut08: Lemme see if I got this right: Cuban citizens with strong political ties to their government get better access to health care than most other citizens?

What a shiathole.

The rich and powerful enjoy better lives than the poor and weak?

That's un-American.

I watched the video of Stossel's horrid 20/20 segment and got to the part with the guy saying, "That part of the hospital isn't for regular Cubans. It's only for the elite," and I thought the same thing. "So, it's just like America then."

I'd think the right would be very, very upset that the Wikileaks info shows that Cuban and American health care work about the same way. In fact, didn't Wikileaks just call us commies?

You really don't know the slightest farking thing about US health care and just proved it with that point.

I was CEO of a hospital in Greeley Colrado that had a population that was nearly 50% Hispanic with a very large share of undocumented aliens. We had one of the highest Medicaid ratios and no pay percentages in the state.

Our community had a very elaborate safety net of primary care clinics offering free or heavily subsidized care for any and all of the population. Any patients who required hospitalization were admitted, cared for, discharged and received follow up as needed. The costs associated with this free care (as well as the portion that Medicare and Medicaid fail to cover on their plans) was pushed over to the private insurance to cover.

My community was no different than the rest of the country as to how care is provided. Our ICU had indigent migrant laborors were in beds next to the wealthiest in the community.

Fark you and your unfounded, BS, and intellectually adolescent KOS talking points.


No need for the personal attacks, buddy. Hit a nerve? You do realize that people with good health insurance get better access to better care...right? I mean, that's not some "Kos talking point," it's a fact.

It's great that your community had clinics and did such a great job treating the whole community. And your community absolutely was different from the rest of the country. Most communities don't have vast networks of clinics with coordinated care. And most communities give a big middle finger to those who don't qualify for Medicaid and can't afford insurance.

Unless, of course, you're good at throwing bake sales, car washes, and spaghetti dinners.

Or maybe we should start treating all our citizens as well as we treat migrant laborers in Colorado.
 
2010-12-18 11:19:00 AM
liam76: I like how you have now moved the goal posts. First you were accusing others of saying the WHO lied now you are simply saying they are wrong. At least with the second you are adressing points peopel actually made.

First off you can look at differences in how infant mortality is measured.


That's reasonable. If you scroll up you'll notice I've already addressed that and suggested that a comparison to Canada would be a good alternative.

Second you can look at the fact that it is a crime in Cuba to criticize govt healthcare and not pretend that would have zero effect on data collected about it in and given out by the govt.

Uh, no. Your pdf states that "public criticism of the government" is illegal in Cuba. I was just there and I can assure you that there's no shortage of criticism of the government.

bigdavediode: It isn't a strawman, and yes, you're stupid for not understanding what a "strawman" is.

When you bring up a point he didn't make and pretend he did, that is a strawman. When you attack a point he didn't make it is attacking a strawman.

I am sorry you don't understand the terms.


Yeah, you're not going to be able to fake your way through that. I didn't "bring up a point that he didn't make and pretend that he did" and you're pretty much screwed to support that.

bigdavediode: Well perhaps I misunderstood and I'm surrounded by Cubans, but I imagined the real question to be "Why is the US health care system so weak compared to other countries?"

That is a great question, but it is dishonest to pretend that was Moore's question when he juxtaposed it with


Yeah, that was the entire point of the movie Sicko. It wasn't a movie about Cuba.
 
2010-12-18 11:19:21 AM
kmmontandon: Because if there's information we can trust, it's accounts from a Communist dictatorship.

But enough about Wikileaks...
 
2010-12-18 11:19:46 AM
Magruda: I could respect your opinion while disagreeing with it. I would love to discus with you the "Irrational Thaoughts" part.

That's for another time, I think. Would be a good conversation though.
 
2010-12-18 11:20:36 AM
Tyee: Halli: They use the same cables that people have pointed out are false.

I'll stand corrected if you provide the link that THE GUARDIAN is using cable that is "false" as a basis for their story.
Fair enough?


When Halli finds a link from those credible "people" he cited I'll be doing Christmas preparations and picking up a kid from her stay in Europe, so will one of you responsible farkers handle it for me? thanks in advance.
 
2010-12-18 11:20:58 AM
3.bp.blogspot.com

"Attention whore Republicans tell the truth about their ideologies to make America look bad."
 
2010-12-18 11:21:13 AM
TappingTheVein: ColdFusion: I just saw TappingTheVein say that the richest and most powerful country in the world, at worst, is TIED in infant mortality rate with a country under such a severe embargo that they haven't seen a new car since tailfins were a cool thing to have.

Then you should get your eyes checked.

The tie is in the UN data, based on government reports (Cuba's government won't lie right ?) and we are talking about general life expectancy not infant mortality rate.


Wow, sorry. That's even worse, dude. Infant Mortality is a debatable statistic, but life expectancy is one of those that's even less fungible.

So, the average person in the US (the richest country in the world) under the HMO-Free Market system will die as quickly as the average person in Cuba (a poor, backwards third-world nation with a low GDP and enjoying a major embargo that prevents them from getting cutting-edge technology) under the Universal Healthcare system.

And you're saying this makes America's system awesome? Wow.

Oh, and sorry Phil. But you do need to stop huffing the Nitrous and stop posting on FARK and actually start doing that dentistry you keep telling us about. There's no way you can post that much and have a full schedule. Hell, I have a half-time schedule and I can't post nearly that much.
 
2010-12-18 11:21:28 AM
TappingTheVein: Fail in Human Form: where are your sources supporting those claims?

So you disregard the video because it doesn't support your claims ?
I can bring in lots of evidence but i have a feeling you'll disregard them as well.


Wanna know how I know you just googled and didn't read your first link.

"Dr. Robert N. Butler, president of the International Longevity Center in New York and a Pulitzer Prize-winning author on aging, has traveled to Cuba to see firsthand how doctors are trained. He said a principal reason that some health standards in Cuba approach the high American level is that the Cuban system emphasizes early intervention. Clinic visits are free, and the focus is on preventing disease rather than treating it."


/I'm working through the others
 
2010-12-18 11:26:29 AM
liam76: I dislike the fat sack of shiat because he made Cuba a relevant topic to US healthcare (especially when talking about his film) and when he gets called out on being wrong about it he cries red herring.

Well how about WHO's neonatal mortality rates, which aren't supplied by governments and measure any deaths before seven days using surveys of households?

Neonatal Mortality Rates
 
2010-12-18 11:26:48 AM
Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Craig341: Guess I know when the Republican talking points are emailed out now.

Wikileaks is bad, except when it gives them an excuse to rehash arguments from a film released three years ago by an idiot. Then, it's good.


No, it's still bad. But I'm not going to pretend that this information isn't available and comment on it accordingly.
 
2010-12-18 11:27:20 AM
Did anyone really think Cuba has better health care than the US? =(

Really?
 
2010-12-18 11:27:55 AM
bigdavediode: Uh, no. Your pdf states that "public criticism of the government" is illegal in Cuba. I was just there and I can assure you that there's no shortage of criticism of the government.

Yu don't think criticism of the govt run healthcare is criticism of the govt?

Read the PDF one of her main points is that it is very tough to get honest answers to surveys because people are afraid to speak out, and that the figures given by the govt are based more on what the govt says than reality.

bigdavediode: Yeah, you're not going to be able to fake your way through that. I didn't "bring up a point that he didn't make and pretend that he did" and you're pretty much screwed to support that.

What was the purpose in bringing up that "only the US tells the truth" and "every other country is lying" unless you were trying to ascribe those views to him?

bigdavediode: Yeah, that was the entire point of the movie Sicko. It wasn't a movie about Cuba

Then why did he put it in and make it out like they had better healthcare?
 
2010-12-18 11:29:25 AM
So right wingers all of a sudden care when people tell lies and misrepresent the truth. Does that mean they'll stop watching Fox "News"
 
2010-12-18 11:29:39 AM
TappingTheVein: Fail in Human Form: where are your sources supporting those claims?

So you disregard the video because it doesn't support your claims ?
I can bring in lots of evidence but i have a feeling you'll disregard them as well.


Your second link is an indictment of the embargo not the health care system, although they put it out there as an argument against socialized medicine, except for advanced care. Saying that only foreign tourists have access to it (which I would argue is another result of the embargo).

/It's also poorly sourced
//Onto #3
 
2010-12-18 11:29:49 AM
Andorion: Did anyone really think Cuba has better health care than the US? =(

Really?


For preventative care? Absolutely.

Why would you think differently?
 
2010-12-18 11:29:53 AM
CIGNA Whistleblower Wendell Potter Apologizes to Michael Moore for PR Smear Campaign...
Sicko
 
2010-12-18 11:29:55 AM
vernonFL: #1. Moore is a douche.

#2. So now conservatives have no problems reading, commenting and forwarding the Wikileaked information? I thought this was treason?


Wait. . what? Treason would be sending out classified information. Is this information classified?
 
2010-12-18 11:31:19 AM
Andorion: Did anyone really think Cuba has better health care than the US? =(

Really?


I bet you don't travel outside the United States. A lot of countries have better healthcare than the US.

Also, the movie wasn't banned in Cuba and in fact was seen all across the country.
 
2010-12-18 11:33:18 AM
ColdFusion: So, the average person in the US (the richest country in the world) under the HMO-Free Market system will die as quickly as the average person in Cuba (a poor, backwards third-world nation with a low GDP

No.
You, again, ignore the fact that the HMO is based on government statistics (this is the data where they were tied) and life expectancy has many factors in it, like for example how many morbidly obese people will drop dead which i'm quite sure is more likely to happen in the US than in Cuba.

ColdFusion: And you're saying this makes America's system awesome? Wow.

Please by all means show me where i said anything of the sort.

Fail in Human Form: "Dr. Robert N. Butler, president of the International Longevity Center in New York and a Pulitzer Prize-winning author on aging, has traveled to Cuba to see firsthand how doctors are trained. He said a principal reason that some health standards in Cuba approach the high American level is that the Cuban system emphasizes early intervention. Clinic visits are free, and the focus is on preventing disease rather than treating it."

And this disqualifies the not-so-great healthcare in Cuba by what way exactly ?
Yeah i've seen their version of "early intervention" when it comes to infant mortality.
 
2010-12-18 11:33:39 AM
bigdavediode: Andorion: Did anyone really think Cuba has better health care than the US? =(

Really?

For preventative care? Absolutely.

Why would you think differently?


B-b-b-but our cancer treatment is the best in the world!

All that government money funneled into cancer research ensures that.

/Government healthcare is bad mmmkay
 
2010-12-18 11:34:03 AM
liam76: bigdavediode: Uh, no. Your pdf states that "public criticism of the government" is illegal in Cuba. I was just there and I can assure you that there's no shortage of criticism of the government.

Yu don't think criticism of the govt run healthcare is criticism of the govt?


No, I don't. And if there is such a law they're definitely not enforcing it.

Read the PDF one of her main points is that it is very tough to get honest answers to surveys because people are afraid to speak out, and that the figures given by the govt are based more on what the govt says than reality.

Then what explains WHO's neonatal mortality rates where Cuba also does better than the US, which is done through household surveys?

bigdavediode: Yeah, you're not going to be able to fake your way through that. I didn't "bring up a point that he didn't make and pretend that he did" and you're pretty much screwed to support that.

What was the purpose in bringing up that "only the US tells the truth" and "every other country is lying" unless you were trying to ascribe those views to him?


Ha ha... no, my friend. I'm trying to come up with credible explanations for you guys to defend your irrationality. It's not my fault that all the explanations are ridiculous.

bigdavediode: Yeah, that was the entire point of the movie Sicko. It wasn't a movie about Cuba

Then why did he put it in and make it out like they had better healthcare?


1) Because they do, at least have more comprehensive health care, and 2) because the entire movie was a comparison to the US system -- in fact, using first responders who could not get treatment in the US as an example of those who WOULD BE served in Cuba.

You'll be pleased to know that the Republicans blocked the latest health aid to first responders to get their tax cuts for billionaires.
 
2010-12-18 11:34:29 AM
TappingTheVein: Fail in Human Form: where are your sources supporting those claims?

So you disregard the video because it doesn't support your claims ?
I can bring in lots of evidence but i have a feeling you'll disregard them as well.


Your 3rd link is another indictment of the embargo along with a stab at Castro's regime.
 
2010-12-18 11:35:36 AM
vernonFL: #1. Moore is a douche.

#2. So now liberals have no problems denying the veracity of Wikileaked information? I thought this was good for America?


FTFY, Hypocrite
 
2010-12-18 11:35:47 AM
"b...b...but they have the best healthcare system in the world!!!"
 
2010-12-18 11:35:58 AM
kukukupo: Wait. . what? Treason would be sending out classified information. Is this information classified?

If it's been leaked, and if it's real, it's likely classified "SECRET." And yes, that would be classified information.
 
2010-12-18 11:36:04 AM
TappingTheVein: ColdFusion: So, the average person in the US (the richest country in the world) under the HMO-Free Market system will die as quickly as the average person in Cuba (a poor, backwards third-world nation with a low GDP

No.
You, again, ignore the fact that the HMO is based on government statistics (this is the data where they were tied) and life expectancy has many factors in it, like for example how many morbidly obese people will drop dead which i'm quite sure is more likely to happen in the US than in Cuba.

ColdFusion: And you're saying this makes America's system awesome? Wow.

Please by all means show me where i said anything of the sort.

Fail in Human Form: "Dr. Robert N. Butler, president of the International Longevity Center in New York and a Pulitzer Prize-winning author on aging, has traveled to Cuba to see firsthand how doctors are trained. He said a principal reason that some health standards in Cuba approach the high American level is that the Cuban system emphasizes early intervention. Clinic visits are free, and the focus is on preventing disease rather than treating it."

And this disqualifies the not-so-great healthcare in Cuba by what way exactly ?
Yeah i've seen their version of "early intervention" when it comes to infant mortality.


You put these out there as proof of your arguments that Moore is wrong. I'm just throw the rubbish right back at you.
 
2010-12-18 11:37:08 AM
Bocanegra: "b...b...but they have the best healthcare system in the world!!!"

No, that's kind of the point. They have a crappy health care system and they STILL outperform the US. Compare the US to Sweden and then you can see what a good health care system looks like.
 
2010-12-18 11:38:25 AM
Lumi: ? You do realize that people with good health insurance get better access to better care...right?


Actually anyone can get the care. The health care providers do not discriminate.

They do want, and deserve to get compensated for their work however.
 
2010-12-18 11:39:21 AM
Fail in Human Form: Your second link is an indictment of the embargo not the health care system, although they put it out there as an argument against socialized medicine, except for advanced care. Saying that only foreign tourists have access to it (which I would argue is another result of the embargo).

Do some research yourself. The evidence is not exactly obscure.
Or just disregard it like you did with my first link which has Moore himself asking to change the subject when his BS about Cuba is exposed.

Or was it a fake Mr. Moore ?
 
2010-12-18 11:40:15 AM
HotAir sucks so bad. Why are conservatives so gullible, narrow-minded, and less-intelligent than their liberal betters?
 
2010-12-18 11:40:17 AM
Phil Herup: Lumi: ? You do realize that people with good health insurance get better access to better care...right?


Actually anyone can get the care. The health care providers do not discriminate.

They do want, and deserve to get compensated for their work however.


The 9/11 first responders are dying to prove you wrong. Literally.
 
2010-12-18 11:40:23 AM
bigdavediode: Compare the US to Sweden and then you can see what a good health care system looks like.


A tiny country with a homogenous populous compared one of the biggest countries in the world with the most diverse populous.

Yeah... it's comparable.

[laughs]
 
2010-12-18 11:40:28 AM
log_jammin: I think it's pretty well established that it is.

He says as he applies a new coat of vaseline.
 
2010-12-18 11:40:36 AM
T-Luv: B-b-b-but our cancer treatment is the best in the world!

All that government money funneled into cancer research ensures that.

/Government healthcare is bad mmmkay


Umm... here, I think and I could be wrong, we confront the same issues as we run into with comparing infant mortality (versus stillbirths or neonatal mortality).

Cancer survival rates in the US are for those who undergo treatment. Those who don't get treatment are not considered -- and again, I could be wrong, don't trust what I'm saying about this.

So the guy who gets esophageal cancer and dies at home due to lack of coverage is not considered.
 
2010-12-18 11:41:03 AM
Modmins drunk again? Can't greenlight any new news?
 
2010-12-18 11:41:20 AM
TappingTheVein: Fail in Human Form: Your second link is an indictment of the embargo not the health care system, although they put it out there as an argument against socialized medicine, except for advanced care. Saying that only foreign tourists have access to it (which I would argue is another result of the embargo).

Do some research yourself. The evidence is not exactly obscure.
Or just disregard it like you did with my first link which has Moore himself asking to change the subject when his BS about Cuba is exposed.

Or was it a fake Mr. Moore ?


In other words, you can't defend your point so I should?
 
2010-12-18 11:41:24 AM
Phil Herup: A tiny country with a homogenous populous compared one of the biggest countries in the world with the most diverse populous.

Yeah... it's comparable.

[laughs]


How about China? Remember last time you tried to bring this up, I brought up China and you never rebutted? What about China's healthcare system? Or Japan, whose population is comparable to the US?
 
2010-12-18 11:41:29 AM
Fail in Human Form: The 9/11 first responders are dying to prove you wrong. Literally.


What... did they not get paid for their work?

They did.

[laughs moar]
 
2010-12-18 11:42:19 AM
Fail in Human Form: Your 3rd link is another indictment of the embargo along with a stab at Castro's regime.

Try focusing on the part about medical care.

Fail in Human Form: You put these out there as proof of your arguments that Moore is wrong.

Regarding Cuba he was wrong.
 
2010-12-18 11:42:46 AM
Primum: liberal betters

Like this guy?

cdn-ugc.cafemom.com
 
2010-12-18 11:43:45 AM
Phil Herup: A tiny country with a homogenous populous compared one of the biggest countries in the world with the most diverse populous.

Yeah... it's comparable.

[laughs]


Then pick Canada, which is filled with immigrants and pick the whitest, most pure-bred, perfect skin, Adolf-kissing wunderkind state in the US.

Pick your state. Life expectancy in Canada beats every single state (except perhaps Hawaii, as it has coverage for most of its population under a state law and the population is, in a large part, well off).
 
2010-12-18 11:44:15 AM
TappingTheVein: Regarding Cuba he was wrong

[citation needed]
 
2010-12-18 11:44:26 AM
Phil Herup: Derwood: your narrow, warped view of reality


There is nothing narrow about my view of reality at all. Be sure keep on chanting with the rest of the drones in your hive, pea brain.


YES!!! Keep me coming!

/I have Phil on my FARK Fantasy DerpBall team, so I need all the points I can get.
//my opponent has RockIsDead this week (eek!)
 
2010-12-18 11:44:46 AM
TappingTheVein: Fail in Human Form: Your 3rd link is another indictment of the embargo along with a stab at Castro's regime.

Try focusing on the part about medical care.

Fail in Human Form: You put these out there as proof of your arguments that Moore is wrong.

Regarding Cuba he was wrong.


I did, everything he was biatching about was either a result of the embargo, although he doesn't believe that, or a result of living in a dictatorship. Not a defense of your point about Moore.
 
2010-12-18 11:44:53 AM
bigdavediode: T-Luv: B-b-b-but our cancer treatment is the best in the world!

All that government money funneled into cancer research ensures that.

/Government healthcare is bad mmmkay

Umm... here, I think and I could be wrong, we confront the same issues as we run into with comparing infant mortality (versus stillbirths or neonatal mortality).

Cancer survival rates in the US are for those who undergo treatment. Those who don't get treatment are not considered -- and again, I could be wrong, don't trust what I'm saying about this.

So the guy who gets esophageal cancer and dies at home due to lack of coverage is not considered.


And that's an even bigger crock of shiat. I'm sure the guy who got sent home paid his income taxes like everyone else. The US government spends 4.8 billion on cancer research a year, but only the most privileged get the benefit of that spending. But right wingers will continue to go on and on about how poor people leach off the government.
 
2010-12-18 11:45:04 AM
Keep EM coming!

/goddammitsomuch
 
2010-12-18 11:45:25 AM
Fail in Human Form: In other words, you can't defend your point so I should?

So you also ignore the fact that i did defend my point.

Why was Mr. Moore asking to change the subject when his BS regarding Cuba was exposed ? why didn't he defend it ?
 
2010-12-18 11:46:35 AM
cameroncrazy1984: Japan, whose population is comparable to the US?


This may be the dumbest thing I read today.

Japan's population is in no way similar or comparable to the US.

Japan is filled with Japs and various other orientals , a more different demographic would be tough to come up with.


cameroncrazy1984: How about China?

How about it? You want to compare the US to the ChiComs?
 
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