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(Hot Air)   Wikileaks: Cuban doctors walked out of a screening of Michael Moore's Sicko and the film was banned in Cuba due to the "blatant misrepresentation of healthcare in Cuba"   (hotair.com ) divider line 492
    More: Obvious, Cuban, Wikileaks, Havana, stossel  
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4381 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Dec 2010 at 5:54 AM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-12-18 10:20:15 AM  
Oh, I should say the data for that chart is from OECD.org, in case anyone wants to check it.
 
2010-12-18 10:21:14 AM  

notmtwain: They raise the issue that the same skepticism ought to be applied to all the cables. I have to admit Hot Air has a point here.

We have to remember that these cables have not been verified by anyone.


The much more interesting point is whether these cables actually exist, and if they do -- how much of this "intel" coming out of Cuba is false.

It shows a HUGE problem in intel gathering if this is real. Think about it -- a mass of disgruntled emigrees change intel to suit their goals.
 
2010-12-18 10:21:36 AM  

maddermaxx: I don't particularly like Michael Moore, he tends to bypass good points...


...not to mention excluding any facts that don't support, or refute, his agenda.
 
2010-12-18 10:21:59 AM  

bigdavediode: The denial mechanism at work, ladies and gentlemen.


You are pointing out his "denial mechanism" by bringing up a bunch of strawmen arguments?
 
2010-12-18 10:25:31 AM  

liam76: bigdavediode: The denial mechanism at work, ladies and gentlemen.

You are pointing out his "denial mechanism" by bringing up a bunch of strawmen arguments?


Have other people noticed the tendency lately of really stupid people misusing the term "strawman?" It's like it's become a buzzword at the day home.
 
2010-12-18 10:26:29 AM  
Well the morans are out this morning chanting the typical points as if they know what even the hell they mean.


Infant mortality!
Lifespan!
Preventable Deaths
Maternal mortality!!!

The ignorance is not preventable, because it is willful.
 
2010-12-18 10:26:44 AM  

GoldSpider: ...not to mention excluding any facts that don't support, or refute, his agenda.


I'd be interested in examples. I'm sure there are some as nobody can include everything, but do tell.
 
2010-12-18 10:27:08 AM  

bigdavediode: The denial mechanism at work, ladies and gentlemen.


Unrelated data and irrelevance at work, ladies and gentlemen.

bigdavediode: 1) Are all the other countries "lying" about their neonatal mortality too?


Not the issue, i (and the people in the video i posted) were talking about Cuba specifically.

bigdavediode: 2) Is the US the only honest country and that's why it ranked 7th worst of OECD countries?


How is this relevant to data based on Cuba's government reports ?

bigdavediode: 3) Since the infant mortality data is taken from both the OECD and WHO -- are they both lying?


Watch the video again regarding infant mortality reports in Cuba. Harder this time if you didn't already.

bigdavediode: 4) Does Cuba's no-cost preventive care have zero effect on neonatal mortality?


Their version of preventive care in this department has lots of effect. Watch the video.
 
2010-12-18 10:28:53 AM  

Phil Herup: Infant mortality!
Lifespan!
Preventable Deaths
Maternal mortality!!!

The ignorance is not preventable, because it is willful.


Wha...? They're spouting statistics instead of impressions?

How dare they!
 
2010-12-18 10:31:02 AM  
And yet he still puts up bail for Assange

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/12/14/michael-moore-puts-u.html

I'm in a hurry to leave, so I don't have time to respond to everything in every post, but I farking like Michael Moore, and people need to realize, he's a filmmaker and entertainer-not a journalist.

Still, I'd trust him before I'd believe any crap that came off Hot Air or out of the mouths of Cuban government officials. I don't need to be told how farked our health care system is. I'm sure my best friend would agree, but it's hard to speak when you're dead for lack of common antibiotics and follow-up care.
 
2010-12-18 10:33:21 AM  
HAHAH!

Asshole permanently biased FarhLib dickwads can't STAND anything about the Right that's not 100% negative.

Biased ASSHOLES.

ASSHOLES

Yeah, YOU.
 
2010-12-18 10:36:39 AM  

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: NewportBarGuy: We're all in agreement here. Motion carried.

Conservatives: Liburals love Michael Moore!!!

Progressives: We're all in agreement, he's a douche


Funny to see these comments precede a whole thread full of rabid michael moore supporters
 
2010-12-18 10:37:48 AM  

TappingTheVein: Not the issue, i (and the people in the video i posted) were talking about Cuba specifically.


Okay, why? Are you Cuban and that's why you're only interested in discussing Cuba? Or is it because everybody would have to be lying in order for the US to have as many dead babies as it does?

bigdavediode: 2) Is the US the only honest country and that's why it ranked 7th worst of OECD countries?

How is this relevant to data based on Cuba's government reports ?


Actually some of the older data is from population projections.

bigdavediode: 3) Since the infant mortality data is taken from both the OECD and WHO -- are they both lying?

Watch the video again regarding infant mortality reports in Cuba. Harder this time if you didn't already.


I'm not going to cite or watch a video -- just tell us. While you're at it, give us your cavalcade of evidence that they're "lying."

bigdavediode: 4) Does Cuba's no-cost preventive care have zero effect on neonatal mortality?

Their version of preventive care in this department has lots of effect. Watch the video.


Is there something in the video that you can't argue directly? Unless the video comes from a primary source, ie. the OECD or another government agency, it's not relevant.
 
2010-12-18 10:38:31 AM  

notmtwain: Moore: Hey, Cuba loved my movie! Hot Air is admitting that the story about Cuba's banning Sicko is false.

They raise the issue that the same skepticism ought to be applied to all the cables. I have to admit Hot Air has a point here.

We have to remember that these cables have not been verified by anyone.


The cables are the thoughts and reports of US diplomats and agents, and as such, they are subject to the whims and biases of whoever wrote them. If you're reading everything as if it is an absolute "Truth", then you're thinking about it the wrong way. There are solid facts in them, but they are only as trustworthy as the person who wrote them. What this means is that, when you read the cables don't think "x is true" think "the US government/ambassador/agent/informant thinks X is true", and go from there. Depending on what they're writing about, their knowledge might be damn good (in the case of estimating civil casualties in Iraq) or it might be apocryphal tripe based on rumours/bad intel (in this case, for example).

You are right, though, that people should be cautious about just taking every word as truth in the cables. Diplomats are just as capable of screwing up reports as anyone else. You just have to evaluate the evidence, with regards to what you know, and reporters should always double check facts if possible (in the case for instance).
 
2010-12-18 10:38:45 AM  

liam76: Fail in Human Form: He linked to CIA life expectancy statistics. We're number 42. As was mentioned earlier, health care isn't the only factor in that but look at the health care systems of the 41 above us. Do you feel the life expectancy in Cuba would be higher with an HMO system?

Moore's claim in the movie was that cuba had better health care than the US and that they have longer life expectancy.

Neither of which are backed up by the CIA factbook.

His claims about cuban health care are not backed up by any facts, unless you consider Cuba's statements on the matter "facts".

He was completely wrong on Cuba.

It is dishonest of him in subsequent interviews to pretend that cuba is just a red herring when he made it an important part of his movie.


TappingTheVein: Fail in Human Form: It shows wherever he got the figures he was using was incorrect not that his underlying premise was incorrect which is what I was arguing.

His premise about Cuba was incorrect.


His premise is that Cuba is better off with a single payer system than an HMO system. You can argue he made his point poorly but the point still stands. I'll ask you both again. Do you believe the life expectancy would be higher in Cuba if they had an HMO style health care system. He calls it a red herring for the reasons I stated before, arguing disparity of wealth between the countries and the benefits that provides rather than access to care.
 
2010-12-18 10:40:17 AM  

chu2dogg: Funny to see these comments precede a whole thread full of rabid michael moore supporters


Erm just because the Hotair story is false it doesn't make one a rabid Michael Moore fan.
 
2010-12-18 10:40:18 AM  

bigdavediode: Have other people noticed the tendency lately of really stupid people misusing the term "strawman?" It's like it's become a buzzword at the day home.


He brought up the almost undeniable likelyhood of Cuba lying and you brought up all countries lying. That is a strawman.

You asked if the US is the only honest country. That is also a strawman.

But keep calling people who point out your accusations aren't backed up by what you say stupid.
 
2010-12-18 10:41:11 AM  

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: gopher321: Since when?

Repeatedly and frequently misrepresenting the truth qualifies you as a douche. Same reason Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity are douches.


THIS.
 
2010-12-18 10:41:26 AM  

RockIsDead: Asshole permanently biased FarhLib dickwads can't STAND anything about the Right that's not 100% negative.


Okay, tell us the positive thing that you've garnered about the Republicans.
 
2010-12-18 10:42:45 AM  

bigdavediode: They're spouting statistics instead of impressions?



There is so much more to it than simple numbers.

Statistics lie and liars use statistics.

-you have to assume the data is collected correctly, which is most likely not. You have the inherent bias of protecting a state run system, so the state will lie. Since we are the only non-state run system and are extremely adept at record keeping (thanks to the lawyers) our numbers are probably the most accurate of all.

-also the actual deaths need to be judged on their individual case complexities to judge the system's effectiveness. Not just blindly chanting the rankings.

The human body is amazing dynamic and complex, to think you can judge a system by these ridiculous metrics is just absolutely small minded. Which makes is a perfect fir for those with your mind set.
 
2010-12-18 10:44:58 AM  

liam76: He brought up the almost undeniable likelyhood of Cuba lying and you brought up all countries lying. That is a strawman.


Okay, then present all the evidence that the OECD and WHO have the infant mortality rates in Cuba wrong.

I know it's "undeniable" but, you know, because you have some evidence.

You asked if the US is the only honest country. That is also a strawman.

But keep calling people who point out your accusations aren't backed up by what you say stupid.


It isn't a strawman, and yes, you're stupid for not understanding what a "strawman" is.

Well perhaps I misunderstood and I'm surrounded by Cubans, but I imagined the real question to be "Why is the US health care system so weak compared to other countries?"

But okay, if you guys want to throw out an "ass-fact" that Cuba is "lying" then show us.
 
2010-12-18 10:45:15 AM  

Phil Herup: -you have to assume the data is collected correctly, which is most likely not. You have the inherent bias of protecting a state run system, so the state will lie. Since we are the only non-state run system and are extremely adept at record keeping (thanks to the lawyers) our numbers are probably the most accurate of all.


Yep there is an international conspiracy to make the States look bad.
 
2010-12-18 10:45:42 AM  

Fail in Human Form: His premise is that Cuba is better off with a single payer system than an HMO system. You can argue he made his point poorly but the point still stands.


Bullshiat.

His point was Cuba, as poor as it is, has better healthcare because it is single payer.

And it simply isn't true.

Fail in Human Form: Do you believe the life expectancy would be higher in Cuba if they had an HMO style health care system.


They might, I have no idea. I have never seen a study or anything examining what effect it would have. Including Sicko.
If hat was the point of his movie he would have brought up what effects a change like that would have.

Fail in Human Form: He calls it a red herring for the reasons I stated before, arguing disparity of wealth between the countries and the benefits that provides rather than access to care


You can't make a movie which rests in part on Cuba's healthcare being better then say it is a red herring when people bring up that it isn't.
 
2010-12-18 10:47:03 AM  

liam76: Fail in Human Form: His premise is that Cuba is better off with a single payer system than an HMO system. You can argue he made his point poorly but the point still stands.

Bullshiat.

His point was Cuba, as poor as it is, has better healthcare because it is single payer.

And it simply isn't true.

Fail in Human Form: Do you believe the life expectancy would be higher in Cuba if they had an HMO style health care system.

They might, I have no idea. I have never seen a study or anything examining what effect it would have. Including Sicko.
If hat was the point of his movie he would have brought up what effects a change like that would have.

Fail in Human Form: He calls it a red herring for the reasons I stated before, arguing disparity of wealth between the countries and the benefits that provides rather than access to care

You can't make a movie which rests in part on Cuba's healthcare being better then say it is a red herring when people bring up that it isn't.


Cuba's healthcare vs no health care. That's the point he was making.
 
2010-12-18 10:47:59 AM  

Phil Herup: There is so much more to it than simple numbers.

Statistics lie and liars use statistics.


Oooooh, so the stats are lying. Okay, show us.

-you have to assume the data is collected correctly, which is most likely not. You have the inherent bias of protecting a state run system, so the state will lie. Since we are the only non-state run system and are extremely adept at record keeping (thanks to the lawyers) our numbers are probably the most accurate of all.

Huh. If the state is lying why aren't they lying to improve their survival rate numbers? Just curious.

-also the actual deaths need to be judged on their individual case complexities to judge the system's effectiveness. Not just blindly chanting the rankings.

Okay, so it would be more fair to compare the US against Canada since they measure stilbirths/foetal deaths similarly.

The human body is amazing dynamic and complex, to think you can judge a system by these ridiculous metrics is just absolutely small minded. Which makes is a perfect fir for those with your mind set.

What metric do you suggest, other than gut feel?
 
2010-12-18 10:48:03 AM  
3.bp.blogspot.com

"Attention whore libs lie in their movies to make America look bad."
 
2010-12-18 10:48:51 AM  

Yakk: Maybe they banned the interview with Sean Hannity and Moore where Fox used blatantly fake footage and got confused when asked about it.

/still not rushing to Cuba for health care


Not blatantly fake, its blatantly a closed hospital.
 
2010-12-18 10:49:11 AM  

liam76: His point was Cuba, as poor as it is, has better healthcare because it is single payer.

And it simply isn't true.


Golly. An unsupported assertion that confirms your pre-existing belief. Color me not surprised.
 
2010-12-18 10:49:18 AM  

bigdavediode: Okay, why? Are you Cuban and that's why you're only interested in discussing Cuba? Or is it because everybody would have to be lying in order for the US to have as many dead babies as it does?


My involvement in this discussion was about unreliable data used by Moore in his film regarding the country known as Cuba.

I have no interest in the US, i have no interest in dead babies in the US, i wasn't discussing the merits of socialized/universal health care (we have it in my country, it works great along side with private health care).

bigdavediode: I'm not going to cite or watch a video -- just tell us. While you're at it, give us your cavalcade of evidence that they're "lying."


Moore. Not reliable data. About Cuba.
Here i summed it up as much as i could for the more challenged individuals among us.

bigdavediode: Is there something in the video that you can't argue directly? Unless the video comes from a primary source, ie. the OECD or another government agency, it's not relevant.


It's not relevant to you. To anyone who watched the Cubans evidence contradicting Moore's BS in the video, it quite relevant.
 
2010-12-18 10:50:08 AM  

Phil Herup: bigdavediode: They're spouting statistics instead of impressions?


There is so much more to it than simple numbers.

Statistics lie and liars use statistics.

-you have to assume the data is collected correctly, which is most likely not. You have the inherent bias of protecting a state run system, so the state will lie. Since we are the only non-state run system and are extremely adept at record keeping (thanks to the lawyers) our numbers are probably the most accurate of all.

-also the actual deaths need to be judged on their individual case complexities to judge the system's effectiveness. Not just blindly chanting the rankings.

The human body is amazing dynamic and complex, to think you can judge a system by these ridiculous metrics is just absolutely small minded. Which makes is a perfect fir for those with your mind set.


In other words, any statistics that don't fit into your narrow, warped view of reality are lies or librul propaganda. Got it.
 
2010-12-18 10:50:38 AM  

TappingTheVein: bigdavediode: Okay, why? Are you Cuban and that's why you're only interested in discussing Cuba? Or is it because everybody would have to be lying in order for the US to have as many dead babies as it does?

My involvement in this discussion was about unreliable data used by Moore in his film regarding the country known as Cuba.


Great, then support your argument that the data is unreliable. We'll wait.
 
2010-12-18 10:51:36 AM  

TappingTheVein: I have no interest in the US



Well the US is your biggest supporter, and we take a lot of heat for supporting you.
 
2010-12-18 10:52:00 AM  

Derwood: In other words, any statistics that don't fit into your narrow, warped view of reality are lies or librul propaganda. Got it.


Who needs lying statistics when we have honest gut-feel?
 
2010-12-18 10:52:04 AM  

Halli: Erm just because the Hotair story is false it doesn't make one a rabid Michael Moore fan.


Link (new window)

Once again it has to be exposed elsewhere and make it into the US through Hotair before the Halli approved American press will cover it at which point he'll have no comment. But Iceland is close to the UK so maybe he'll believe this source.
 
2010-12-18 10:53:22 AM  

Derwood: your narrow, warped view of reality



There is nothing narrow about my view of reality at all. Be sure keep on chanting with the rest of the drones in your hive, pea brain.
 
2010-12-18 10:53:26 AM  

Tyee: Halli: Erm just because the Hotair story is false it doesn't make one a rabid Michael Moore fan.

Link (new window)

Once again it has to be exposed elsewhere and make it into the US through Hotair before the Halli approved American press will cover it at which point he'll have no comment. But Iceland is close to the UK so maybe he'll believe this source.


They use the same cables that people have pointed out are false. Try again.
 
2010-12-18 10:54:51 AM  

Tyee: "the Halli approved American press"



LOL... I like that.


He always discredits things based solely on the publisher
 
2010-12-18 10:56:14 AM  

Phil Herup: Derwood: your narrow, warped view of reality

There is nothing narrow about my view of reality at all. Be sure keep on chanting with the rest of the drones in your hive, pea brain.


Well forgive us for doubting you. It just seems like when you reject concrete statistics and metrics and measures in favor of... well, nothing at all except empty assertions and gut-feel -- well, it seems like you're just kind of affirming your pre-existing beliefs by rejecting anything that doesn't conform.
 
2010-12-18 10:57:28 AM  

Phil Herup: Tyee: "the Halli approved American press"


LOL... I like that.


He always discredits things based solely on the publisher


Yes silly me for calling out a WND sister site that promotes birtherism and other retarded crap. Whatever was I thinking with that one.
 
2010-12-18 10:59:10 AM  
That's pretty funny.
 
2010-12-18 10:59:14 AM  
I used to think poorly of Michael Moore. Bassed only on what i've seen others post about him. Then i actually took a look at his work and interviews and am now on his mailing list. You see when both "Liberals" and "Conservatives" truely hate something/someone it usually means they are right. i.e Noam Chomsky.
 
2010-12-18 11:01:32 AM  

Magruda: I used to think poorly of Michael Moore. Bassed only on what i've seen others post about him. Then i actually took a look at his work and interviews and am now on his mailing list. You see when both "Liberals" and "Conservatives" truely hate something/someone it usually means they are right. i.e Noam Chomsky.


What if I don't support Michael Moore (based on entirely on the particular quality or lack-thereof of each individual film, some of which are much more factual than others) and despise Noam Chomsky because he's a linguist with an eloquent way of expressing irrational thoughts?
 
2010-12-18 11:01:42 AM  

TappingTheVein: It's not relevant to you. To anyone who watched the Cubans evidence contradicting Moore's BS in the video, it quite relevant.


Just so we're on the same page. Moore's movie was an indictment of the US healthcare system. The point of taking the people to Cuba wasn't an attempt to show Cuba's healthcare system as the best in the world. It was an attempt to show how much better the care is for the indigent there as opposed to here, left to die either in a hospital bed or the street. He then later defended his intent poorly, the video you keep linking too, to a person who is intentionally defending the status quo here. One doctor in the video, a woman who has a legitimate grudge against the Cuban healthcare, and unnamed other people are the ones making your case. If that is the only video you are talking about where are your sources supporting those claims?
 
2010-12-18 11:02:59 AM  

bigdavediode: Okay, then present all the evidence that the OECD and WHO have the infant mortality rates in Cuba wrong.

I know it's "undeniable" but, you know, because you have some evidence.


I like how you have now moved the goal posts. First you were accusing others of saying the WHO lied now you are simply saying they are wrong. At least with the second you are adressing points peopel actually made.

First off you can look at differences in how infant mortality is measured.

http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/cuba-vs-the-united-states-on-infant - mortality/

Second you can look at the fact that it is a crime in Cuba to criticize govt healthcare and not pretend that would have zero effect on data collected about it in and given out by the govt.

http://www.miscelaneasdecuba.net/media/pdf/Article-Hirschfeld-Press.pdf


bigdavediode: It isn't a strawman, and yes, you're stupid for not understanding what a "strawman" is.


When you bring up a point he didn't make and pretend he did, that is a strawman. When you attack a point he didn't make it is attacking a strawman.

I am sorry you don't understand the terms.

bigdavediode: Well perhaps I misunderstood and I'm surrounded by Cubans, but I imagined the real question to be "Why is the US health care system so weak compared to other countries?"


That is a great question, but it is dishonest to pretend that was Moore's question when he juxtaposed it with
 
2010-12-18 11:03:25 AM  

Phil Herup: There is nothing narrow about my view of reality at all. Be sure keep on chanting with the rest of the drones in your hive, pea brain.


Delicious irony.
 
2010-12-18 11:04:02 AM  

bigdavediode: Great, then support your argument that the data is unreliable. We'll wait.


I already did. Several times.
Scroll up, i'll wait.

Phil Herup: Well the US is your biggest supporter, and we take a lot of heat for supporting you.


How is this relevant ? i was talking about the US medical care.
 
2010-12-18 11:04:23 AM  

Halli: They use the same cables that people have pointed out are false.


I'll stand corrected if you provide the link that THE GUARDIAN is using cable that is "false" as a basis for their story.
Fair enough?
 
2010-12-18 11:05:50 AM  

Fail in Human Form: Just so we're on the same page. Moore's movie was an indictment of the US healthcare system. The point of taking the people to Cuba wasn't an attempt to show Cuba's healthcare system as the best in the world. It was an attempt to show how much better the care is for the indigent there as opposed to here, left to die either in a hospital bed or the street. He then later defended his intent poorly, the video you keep linking too, to a person who is intentionally defending the status quo here. One doctor in the video, a woman who has a legitimate grudge against the Cuban healthcare, and unnamed other people are the ones making your case. If that is the only video you are talking about where are your sources supporting those claims?


You're a good man, wasting the time to watch the video only so that he could say "Well, that's not MY argument... that's only a video..."

I also enjoyed their weak attempt at reversal of the burden of proof.
 
2010-12-18 11:07:41 AM  

bigdavediode: Magruda: I used to think poorly of Michael Moore. Bassed only on what i've seen others post about him. Then i actually took a look at his work and interviews and am now on his mailing list. You see when both "Liberals" and "Conservatives" truely hate something/someone it usually means they are right. i.e Noam Chomsky.

What if I don't support Michael Moore (based on entirely on the particular quality or lack-thereof of each individual film, some of which are much more factual than others) and despise Noam Chomsky because he's a linguist with an eloquent way of expressing irrational thoughts?


I could respect your opinion while disagreeing with it. I would love to discus with you the "Irrational Thaoughts" part.
 
2010-12-18 11:10:40 AM  

liam76: bigdavediode: Well perhaps I misunderstood and I'm surrounded by Cubans, but I imagined the real question to be "Why is the US health care system so weak compared to other countries?"

That is a great question, but it is dishonest to pretend that was Moore's question when he juxtaposed it with


DOH!

I forgot exactly what I was writing, but the idea was-

When Moore brought Cuba into his film and made it out like they had better healthcare he decided to go for shock instead of truth and welcomed all the conversations we are having now.

I dislike the fat sack of shiat because he made Cuba a relevant topic to US healthcare (especially when talking about his film) and when he gets called out on being wrong about it he cries red herring.
 
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