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(Daily Mail)   Woman: "I want time off to go to Mecca." Boss: "That is called a vacation." US Equal Employment Commssion: "No it's not." Everyone else: "I wanna take a pilgrimage to Hawai'i"   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 166
    More: Stupid, pilgrimages, khan, compensatory damages, United States Department of Justice, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, muslims, middle schools, United States Attorney  
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14246 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Dec 2010 at 12:13 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-12-14 09:55:06 AM
I don't understand why she has to go to Mecca to be stampeded by sweaty lunatics when she could just stand in the middle of the hall when the lunch bell rings and get the same thing.
 
2010-12-14 09:59:35 AM
I'd complain about how stupid this woman is, but my 10 day paid Christmas break starts soon, and I have stuff I need to get done.
 
Bek
2010-12-14 10:02:58 AM
Two points-

1. It's unpaid leave, and she's a goddam teacher. What's wrong with the summer?

2. According to the article's time line, she started in 2007 and wanted to go in 2008. Assuming she started in fall 07, that implies less than a year of employment before requesting three weeks off.

So basically she's a moron, and will probably be getting back pay and compensatory damages because this involves religion and a union. Awesome.
 
2010-12-14 10:09:06 AM
I don't know how unpaid leave works. Is it always granted? If they rejected it purely because of her reasoning, that would obviously be illegal.
 
2010-12-14 10:13:57 AM
Bek: Two points-

1. It's unpaid leave, and she's a goddam teacher. What's wrong with the summer?

2. According to the article's time line, she started in 2007 and wanted to go in 2008. Assuming she started in fall 07, that implies less than a year of employment before requesting three weeks off.

So basically she's a moron, and will probably be getting back pay and compensatory damages because this involves religion and a union. Awesome.


That is exactly what I noticed. I would like to know how old this woman is. I wonder that because expecting to have an additional 3 weeks off unpaid on top of whatever paid time off that her job gives her after working for about a year is just ridiculous. This lady sounds like one of those newly graduated 20 somethings that feel that they are entitled to anything they want. Whats wrong with her doing what everybody else does, work for a few years and build up their paid time off, then take the vacation. I bet she even planned to put the whole trip on a credit card also. I she didn't have the patience to save up her time to take the trip I doubt she had the money saved either.
 
2010-12-14 10:15:33 AM
FTA: "After the education district twice denied her request, Khan wrote to the board that 'based on her religious beliefs, she could not justify delaying performing Hajj'."

What, is she dying of something? She can go see the companion cube any number of years.
 
2010-12-14 10:36:53 AM
what_now: I'd complain about how stupid this woman is, but my 10 day paid Christmas break starts soon, and I have stuff I need to get done.

i bet she gets at least those same 10 days off. why couldn't she go then?
 
2010-12-14 10:43:12 AM
thomps: i bet she gets at least those same 10 days off. why couldn't she go then?

I'm not really commenting on the story. I'm just pointing out that many of us will enjoy a fully paid federal holiday for a religion that we may or may not share.
 
2010-12-14 10:51:53 AM
what_now: thomps: i bet she gets at least those same 10 days off. why couldn't she go then?

I'm not really commenting on the story. I'm just pointing out that many of us will enjoy a fully paid federal holiday for a religion that we may or may not share.


i'm just not sure how relevant religion is here, though. i guarantee she wasn't denied the THREE WEEKS of unpaid leave for religious reasons, but rather because she wants THREE WEEKS off during an already truncated work year in only her second year of tenure.
 
2010-12-14 10:58:51 AM
thomps: i'm just not sure how relevant religion is here, though. i guarantee she wasn't denied the THREE WEEKS of unpaid leave for religious reasons, but rather because she wants THREE WEEKS off during an already truncated work year in only her second year of tenure.

That's probably accurate, and I don't see why she couldn't have waited until she built up the vacation time, but a lot of the "MUSLIMS ARE SO ENTITLED" derp that's going to come soon is from people who planning their lengthy paid time off Christmas vacation.
 
2010-12-14 11:04:47 AM
what_now: thomps: i'm just not sure how relevant religion is here, though. i guarantee she wasn't denied the THREE WEEKS of unpaid leave for religious reasons, but rather because she wants THREE WEEKS off during an already truncated work year in only her second year of tenure.

That's probably accurate, and I don't see why she couldn't have waited until she built up the vacation time, but a lot of the "MUSLIMS ARE SO ENTITLED" derp that's going to come soon is from people who planning their lengthy paid time off Christmas vacation.


That would be up to the employers regarding the "lengthy time off." Not everyone gets it off as a right, and not everyone gets a ten day break over the holidays. Sure, there is one day recognized as a federal holiday, but not all of us get ten days off.
 
2010-12-14 11:06:43 AM
Nabb1: what_now: thomps: i'm just not sure how relevant religion is here, though. i guarantee she wasn't denied the THREE WEEKS of unpaid leave for religious reasons, but rather because she wants THREE WEEKS off during an already truncated work year in only her second year of tenure.

That's probably accurate, and I don't see why she couldn't have waited until she built up the vacation time, but a lot of the "MUSLIMS ARE SO ENTITLED" derp that's going to come soon is from people who planning their lengthy paid time off Christmas vacation.

That would be up to the employers regarding the "lengthy time off." Not everyone gets it off as a right, and not everyone gets a ten day break over the holidays. Sure, there is one day recognized as a federal holiday, but not all of us get ten days off.


i didn't even get christmas off last year. had to VPN in from home.
 
2010-12-14 11:09:22 AM
Nabb1:
That would be up to the employers regarding the "lengthy time off." Not everyone gets it off as a right, and not everyone gets a ten day break over the holidays. Sure, there is one day recognized as a federal holiday, but not all of us get ten days off.


thomps: i didn't even get christmas off last year. had to VPN in from home.

Lulz. I'm leaving the 23rd and coming back the 4th.
 
2010-12-14 11:11:55 AM
what_now: Nabb1:
That would be up to the employers regarding the "lengthy time off." Not everyone gets it off as a right, and not everyone gets a ten day break over the holidays. Sure, there is one day recognized as a federal holiday, but not all of us get ten days off.

thomps: i didn't even get christmas off last year. had to VPN in from home.

Lulz. I'm leaving the 23rd and coming back the 4th.


I need to get a job in academia.
 
2010-12-14 11:18:28 AM
why SHOULDN'T american muslims make a pilgrimege to hwaii? the most powerful muslim in the country SAYS he was born there
 
2010-12-14 11:19:33 AM
what_now: Nabb1:
That would be up to the employers regarding the "lengthy time off." Not everyone gets it off as a right, and not everyone gets a ten day break over the holidays. Sure, there is one day recognized as a federal holiday, but not all of us get ten days off.

thomps: i didn't even get christmas off last year. had to VPN in from home.

Lulz. I'm leaving the 23rd and coming back the 4th.


yeah but i bet you have to spend that time with family and friends rather than learning the true meaning of christmas by writing memos that no-one will ever read.
 
2010-12-14 11:21:42 AM
thomps: yeah but i bet you have to spend that time with family and friends rather than learning the true meaning of christmas by writing memos that no-one will ever read.

I'mma learn to snow shoe. My friend (who's a teacher) and I are going away for four days. Also, I plan on going through my library to get rid of the books I don't need/can donate, and everyone's been telling me to watch "glee" so I plan on getting current on that.
 
2010-12-14 11:23:43 AM
Bek: 1. It's unpaid leave, and she's a goddam teacher. What's wrong with the summer?

She has to go during the holiday. It's a scheduled event.

That said though, the Islamic calendar rotates the entire year. So she could wait for a year when it's in the summer.

thomps: i'm just not sure how relevant religion is here, though. i guarantee she wasn't denied the THREE WEEKS of unpaid leave for religious reasons, but rather because she wants THREE WEEKS off during an already truncated work year in only her second year of tenure.

That, yeah.

Honestly the better discussion would be about scheduling unpaid leave generally. I'm sure plenty of people would love it if they could take some chunks of unpaid leave from work to pursue other interests (some related to work, some not) but in most careers that's not really on offer. Professors get sabbaticals, but that's one of the few gigs. Forget about religion, someone who wants to attend some conference or do a long hike across the US or take a limited internship on a farm or go to some special seminar series or whatever else might have the same desires.

Also working in the public schools means your permitted time off is rather limited. You might get the summer off (and not paid for it) but you can't just decide WHEN to take your vacation as easily as other jobs. You have to know that going in.
 
2010-12-14 11:28:46 AM
what_now: thomps: yeah but i bet you have to spend that time with family and friends rather than learning the true meaning of christmas by writing memos that no-one will ever read.

I'mma learn to snow shoe. My friend (who's a teacher) and I are going away for four days. Also, I plan on going through my library to get rid of the books I don't need/can donate, and everyone's been telling me to watch "glee" so I plan on getting current on that.


i love giving away books, but everything else there sounds pretty terrible to me. i'm getting as far away from snow as possible this year and love music too much to consider watching glee. but i have to ask - is snowshoeing something one really has to be taught? isn't it just walking on snow?
 
2010-12-14 11:30:59 AM
thomps: is snowshoeing something one really has to be taught? isn't it just walking on snow?

I am the clumsiest person who's ever existed. We'll see.
 
2010-12-14 12:16:48 PM
I'm making a pilgramage to Amsterdam. What, legal weed and red light districts are part of my religion, you infidel heretics.
 
2010-12-14 12:16:49 PM
Bek: Two points-...So basically she's a moron, and will probably be getting back pay and compensatory damages because this involves religion and a union. Awesome.

To fulfil the pilgrimage requirements of the hajj the trip to Mecca must take place in the last month of the Islamic year.

Ridiculous? Perhaps, but do look into things before you spout off.
 
2010-12-14 12:18:07 PM
Oldiron_79: I'm making a pilgramage to Amsterdam. What, legal weed and red light districts are part of my religion, you infidel heretics.

There was an article recently that said that the Netherlands was set to make weed legal only for residents of the country, not visitors. Better hurry.
 
2010-12-14 12:19:44 PM
I'm self-employed. I denied myself unpaid leave to go to Mecca too. Bah Jihad!
 
2010-12-14 12:20:04 PM
t2.gstatic.com

The Principal.
 
2010-12-14 12:21:08 PM
itazurakko: Bek: 1. It's unpaid leave, and she's a goddam teacher. What's wrong with the summer?

She has to go during the holiday. It's a scheduled event.


On the other hand, the religious obligation is "do it sometime before you die", so unless she has some reason to think she'll be dying soon, it can be delayed quite a long time. Until retirement sounds reasonable.

Remember that pilgrimage is a Christian tradition, too, with about the same urgency. The answer to "I need to visit [x relic], I'm a member of [y sect]" for Christians would also probably be "well, save up your vacation time".

//Sadly, I don't think any saints are actually interred in Hawaii.
 
2010-12-14 12:21:59 PM
This thread is going to suck balls.
 
2010-12-14 12:22:42 PM
Fano: FTA: "After the education district twice denied her request, Khan wrote to the board that 'based on her religious beliefs, she could not justify delaying performing Hajj'."

What, is she dying of something? She can go see the companion cube any number of years.


Yeah, but someone may solve it by then!

/or is that a different cube?
 
2010-12-14 12:23:27 PM
Hajj is getting crowded. Deadly stampedes have happened quite a few times. If Islam continues to grow, isn't having Hajj all at the same time each year, only once per year, going to be impractical, wildly dangerous, or both?

Maybe they need to divide it up. Last names A through Mohamed on such-and-such date, last names Muhammed through Z two weeks later.
 
2010-12-14 12:24:05 PM
Not to go against the common tide here but:

1) The pilgirmage must be made at the end of Ramadan. Sometimes that falls in the school year so waiting til the summer was likely not an option.

2) The Saudis strictly control the number of Hajj Visas granted every year, otherwise the annual pilgrimage would be unmagaeable and even more people will die. Usually the number of Visas is limited to about 2 million. Given that there are 1 billion Muslims worldwide, she probably thought that she was unlikley to get another permit so it really was now or never.

Just sayin.
 
2010-12-14 12:24:21 PM
JohnAnnArbor: Deadly stampedes have happened quite a few times. If Islam continues to grow, isn't having Hajj all at the same time each year, only once per year, going to be impractical, wildly dangerous, or both?

Or maybe... a good way of culling the herd...
 
2010-12-14 12:24:44 PM
thomps: i bet she gets at least those same 10 days off. why couldn't she go then?

I'm not sure if this is a troll or not but am going to give the benefit of the doubt.

This pilgrimage occurs yearly during the end of the islamic calendar. She can pick what year she does it but not what day of the year.

We dont ask Christians to celebrate Christmas at some other time we cant ask Muslims to make their pilgrimage at some other either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhu_al-Hijjah
 
2010-12-14 12:25:02 PM
Oh yeah well I'm Mayan. Let the sacrifices begin.
 
2010-12-14 12:25:13 PM
The government asked the court to order the school district to adopt policies that reasonably accommodate its employees' religious practices and beliefs, and to reinstate Khan with back pay and also pay her compensatory damages.

Three weeks off from a normal job is about 6% of your year. Three weeks off from a school job is closer to 10%. I would say that such a request is UN-reasonable.
 
2010-12-14 12:25:27 PM
JohnAnnArbor: Hajj is getting crowded. Deadly stampedes have happened quite a few times. If Islam continues to grow, isn't having Hajj all at the same time each year, only once per year, going to be impractical, wildly dangerous, or both?

Maybe they need to divide it up. Last names A through Mohamed on such-and-such date, last names Muhammed through Z two weeks later.


It would be real sad if someone's explosives belt exploded accidentally at the Hajj. Do you think its like the TSA outside where everyone gets strip searched before being allowed to enter?
 
2010-12-14 12:25:30 PM
You're not allowed to just show up in Mecca when the mood strikes you. There's a specific time of year during which the Hajj occurs, and you must schedule it very far in advance, sometimes years in advance, since the Saudis very strictly control access to the city.
 
2010-12-14 12:26:23 PM
She asked for unpaid leave. That's about as much as you can ask for, from the school's point of view. I don't see what's the big deal, so long as she chooses a time that's not terribly disruptive to her school duties. Maternity leave is much more strenuous on the job situation than an unpaid religious leave.
 
2010-12-14 12:26:27 PM
Huggermugger: You're not allowed to just show up in Mecca when the mood strikes you. There's a specific time of year during which the Hajj occurs, and you must schedule it very far in advance, sometimes years in advance, since the Saudis very strictly control access to the city.

One cannot just walk into Mecca!
 
2010-12-14 12:26:39 PM
2.bp.blogspot.com

Not sure what this has to do with anything, but I'd hit it.
/Hot like going to hell for tapping a corrupter
 
2010-12-14 12:28:47 PM
Bek: What's wrong with the summer?

Not a muslim, but isn;t summer the wrong time of year for the hajj?

Its a once in a lifetime gig, all Muslims are required to do it.

Don't have all the facts here. Maybe said teacher should have asked a couple of years a head of time given she knows what the school year is. I don't know the timing of the request, if she said June of this year then sorry sweet cheeks put it in for next year.

For the school system this is a no win. Let her go (unpaid no less) and be done with it, boxed checked, next then she rocks the system and everyone starts asking for "special considerations". Or tell her no lawsuit on religious grounds.

She's only a second years teacher, If she had 10 years or more nobody would have batted an eye.
 
2010-12-14 12:28:50 PM
Bek: Two points-

1. It's unpaid leave, and she's a goddam teacher. What's wrong with the summer?

2. According to the article's time line, she started in 2007 and wanted to go in 2008. Assuming she started in fall 07, that implies less than a year of employment before requesting three weeks off.

So basically she's a moron, and will probably be getting back pay and compensatory damages because this involves religion and a union. Awesome


1) well ya see the Haj happens at a kinda specific time of the year not when the farking pilgrim feels like it

2) Union ain't got nothing to do with this, this is all EEOC and the Civil Rights Act, which, as it enforces that pesky 1st amendment, does require employers to make reasonable accomodations for an employee's religious beliefs.(Ie not making the Orthodox Jew on your staff pull the Friday night shift if you have somebody else who can do those hours) I'm betting the school has allowed unpaid leave for other, non-religious, reasons so the EEOC took the position that it was a "reasonable accomodation"
 
2010-12-14 12:29:43 PM
Are women even allowed at the Hajj?

/drtfa
 
2010-12-14 12:29:48 PM
fairleym: 2) The Saudis strictly control the number of Hajj Visas granted every year,

Ok, but why did she even apply this year?
 
2010-12-14 12:30:11 PM
Bek: Two points-

1. It's unpaid leave, and she's a goddam teacher. What's wrong with the summer?

2. According to the article's time line, she started in 2007 and wanted to go in 2008. Assuming she started in fall 07, that implies less than a year of employment before requesting three weeks off.

So basically she's a moron, and will probably be getting back pay and compensatory damages because this involves religion and a union. Awesome.


the pilgrimage (Hajj) is a specific even that takes place every year. With the way it works, it could be a lifetime before it gets back around to coincide with her summer vacation.

It was unpaid leave, the school wouldn't loose any money. I don't see what the big deal on their side was.
 
2010-12-14 12:30:49 PM
brap: Bek: Two points-...So basically she's a moron, and will probably be getting back pay and compensatory damages because this involves religion and a union. Awesome.

To fulfil the pilgrimage requirements of the hajj the trip to Mecca must take place in the last month of the Islamic year.

Ridiculous? Perhaps, but do look into things before you spout off.


Well, this is Fark and isn't spouting off before looking into things what makes it so special?

Shiat, looking ino things before spouting off would grind the Politics tab to a halt.
 
2010-12-14 12:30:55 PM
Nabb1: what_now: Nabb1:
That would be up to the employers regarding the "lengthy time off." Not everyone gets it off as a right, and not everyone gets a ten day break over the holidays. Sure, there is one day recognized as a federal holiday, but not all of us get ten days off.

thomps: i didn't even get christmas off last year. had to VPN in from home.

Lulz. I'm leaving the 23rd and coming back the 4th.

I need to get a job in academia.


I'm getting the same thing, and I do game dev. Admittedly, the 80 hour work weeks when we're in crunch kind of cancel that out.
 
2010-12-14 12:31:04 PM
Nabb1: what_now: thomps: i'm just not sure how relevant religion is here, though. i guarantee she wasn't denied the THREE WEEKS of unpaid leave for religious reasons, but rather because she wants THREE WEEKS off during an already truncated work year in only her second year of tenure.

That's probably accurate, and I don't see why she couldn't have waited until she built up the vacation time, but a lot of the "MUSLIMS ARE SO ENTITLED" derp that's going to come soon is from people who planning their lengthy paid time off Christmas vacation.

That would be up to the employers regarding the "lengthy time off." Not everyone gets it off as a right, and not everyone gets a ten day break over the holidays. Sure, there is one day recognized as a federal holiday, but not all of us get ten days off.


Quite right. Since xmas falls on a Saturday this year, I don't get any weekdays off. It will be a normal weekend for me. Same for New Year's Day.
 
2010-12-14 12:31:16 PM
itsfullofstars: thomps: i bet she gets at least those same 10 days off. why couldn't she go then?

I'm not sure if this is a troll or not but am going to give the benefit of the doubt.

This pilgrimage occurs yearly during the end of the islamic calendar. She can pick what year she does it but not what day of the year.

We dont ask Christians to celebrate Christmas at some other time we cant ask Muslims to make their pilgrimage at some other either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhu_al-Hijjah


yeah the article did not make the timing issue clear. i still don't think the denial amounts to religious discrimination.
 
2010-12-14 12:31:28 PM
itsfullofstars: thomps: i bet she gets at least those same 10 days off. why couldn't she go then?

I'm not sure if this is a troll or not but am going to give the benefit of the doubt.

This pilgrimage occurs yearly during the end of the islamic calendar. She can pick what year she does it but not what day of the year.

We dont ask Christians to celebrate Christmas at some other time we cant ask Muslims to make their pilgrimage at some other either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhu_al-Hijjah


Oh poppycock. Christmas merely involves shopping and sleeping late. Not a journey half way around the earth to go babble like a drunken, sunburned homeless at some wall or whatever.

I'm trolling BTW, please disregard.
 
2010-12-14 12:31:38 PM
itazurakko: Bek: 1. It's unpaid leave, and she's a goddam teacher. What's wrong with the summer?

She has to go during the holiday. It's a scheduled event.

That said though, the Islamic calendar rotates the entire year. So she could wait for a year when it's in the summer.


Right, but it only moves like 12 days a year, and right now the Hajj is sometime in December (I think). That's waiting about 15 years before the entirety of the three weeks she wants to take falls inside summer break. Granted, she's young, and that's well within the "sometime in one's life" part of the edict, but still.
 
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