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(Some Guy)   Ex-CIA bin Laden Unit Chief: "Bush and Obama have sworn to Americans that Bin Laden's running from rock to rock, cave to cave, and can't communicate with his fighters. This is pure Hollywood nonsense"   (the-diplomat.com) divider line 81
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2785 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Dec 2010 at 1:52 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-12-10 12:49:40 PM
That guy made more sense than any politician I've heard speak on the subject.
 
2010-12-10 12:53:08 PM
shirtsbyeric: That guy made more sense than any politician I've heard speak on the subject.

Yes, and what he said is rather unsettling.
 
2010-12-10 12:57:53 PM
Well, Bush admitted that he didn't care about Bin Laden, and Obama doesn't really mention him.

It doesn't really matter. Bush did more damage to this country than Bin Laden could have dreamed of doing.
 
2010-12-10 01:10:40 PM
I have this mental picture of Bin Laden scurrying from rock to rock, dragging his enormous dialysis machine behind him. Or maybe his flunkies are carrying it for him. And the generator it needs to run.
 
2010-12-10 01:15:05 PM
What we're really fighting is to keep unemployment below 30% at home, and that's why things haven't changed much at all since Bush was in office.

This isn't rocket science, either.
 
2010-12-10 01:18:42 PM
Nabb1: shirtsbyeric: That guy made more sense than any politician I've heard speak on the subject.

Yes, and what he said is rather unsettling.


Indeed.
 
2010-12-10 01:27:13 PM
I just bought "Imperial Hubris" off Amazon for $4. Looks like an interesting read.
 
2010-12-10 01:50:36 PM
what_now: Well, Bush admitted that he didn't care about Bin Laden, and Obama doesn't really mention him.

Which is why the quote in the headline is confusing. Does the guy have anything else to say that is compelling?
 
2010-12-10 01:51:50 PM
shirtsbyeric: That guy made more sense than any politician I've heard speak on the subject.

Agreed.

What unsettles me is that only major elected official who has made statements similar to Scheuer's assessment of al-Qaeda's intentions is Ron Paul. When he is the only sane man in the room, you know we have problems.

I don't think it is going to get any better. Rep John Bohner and his old school GOP cronies are going to keep power to themselves and tell the Tea Party folks to pound sand. That means more billion dollar contracts for military crap so that we can chase the Bogeyman. What a load of crap.
 
2010-12-10 02:01:30 PM
The latter refused to act on the intelligence they had in hand-which was more than sufficient to capture or kill Osama bin Laden-because of a combination of moral cowardice; a stark fear of media and European criticism; the need to avoid alienating Arab tyrannies who supply our oil and buy our arms and debt; and a desperate desire to avoid doing anything that would hurt the chances of keeping the White House in Democratic hands. The foregoing will be fully validated when the 9/11 Commission's archive is opened to the public.

This is the part I don't understand. I mean, they are talking about Clinton, right?

Would capturing Bin Laden really be so awful that Al Gore would have his presidential chances HURT?
 
2010-12-10 02:01:31 PM
The hardest part of exploiting this material is encountering the students and people who attend my public talks or read my books who've trusted Clinton, Bush and Obama to teach them about the nature and motivation of America's Islamist enemy. A good portion of these individuals truly believe that the United States is being attacked because of its freedoms, liberties, gender equality, Christianity, elections, etc, and not for what the US government does overseas.

HE'S BLAMIN' MURICAH!!!!

DEY HATE US CUZ OF BACON
 
2010-12-10 02:01:48 PM
Dinjiin: What unsettles me is that only major elected official who has made statements similar to Scheuer's assessment of al-Qaeda's intentions is Ron Paul. When he is the only sane man in the room, you know we have problems.

Or, it's possible that the minority voices are just wrong.

Dinjiin: I don't think it is going to get any better. Rep John Bohner and his old school GOP cronies are going to keep power to themselves and tell the Tea Party folks to pound sand. That means more billion dollar contracts for military crap so that we can chase the Bogeyman. What a load of crap.

How is this at odds with what Scheuer is saying in this piece?

It's only on reading what Bin Laden, et al have said and written that they begin to question what's been told them by their last three presidents and begin to realize that Bin Laden represents an international Islamist movement that is much larger, more lethal, and more genuinely motivated by faith than the nonexistent small group of 'thugs, criminals, cowards, and nihilists' described by Clinton, Bush and Obama.


I wonder if this guy isn't too close to the problem. Why should we take what Bin Laden thinks of his mission and organization as any way representative of the actual threat?
 
2010-12-10 02:03:29 PM
Dude's been dead for years.

Seriously, I don't understand how anyone would believe he is alive still.
 
2010-12-10 02:05:19 PM
"and a desperate desire to avoid doing anything that would hurt the chances of keeping the White House in Democratic hands. The foregoing will be fully validated when the 9/11 Commission's archive is opened to the public."

lol wut

That whole paragrapg does not make a farking lick of sense.
 
2010-12-10 02:06:42 PM
halfof33: paragrapg

paragraph.

/topless chick in condo distracted me.
 
2010-12-10 02:07:43 PM
bulldg4life:
The latter refused to act on the intelligence they had in hand-which was more than sufficient to capture or kill Osama bin Laden-because of a combination of moral cowardice; a stark fear of media and European criticism; the need to avoid alienating Arab tyrannies who supply our oil and buy our arms and debt; and a desperate desire to avoid doing anything that would hurt the chances of keeping the White House in Democratic hands. The foregoing will be fully validated when the 9/11 Commission's archive is opened to the public.


This is the part I don't understand. I mean, they are talking about Clinton, right?


Yeah, and it was this passage more than any that makes me question this guy's objectivity. I mean, I only bolded the parts that he would have needed to be psychic to know. It seems he has an axe to grind against Clinton. Plus, dragging Obama into this several times seems that it may be a partisan agenda. I mean I just don't remember the last time Obama even mentioned Osama (despite their similarity in names).
 
2010-12-10 02:07:44 PM
Dinjiin

What do you think the unemployment lines would look like if all troops were brought home tomorrow?

It's a honest question, and I'm not trolling.
 
2010-12-10 02:09:04 PM
FTA: "The officers that I had the honour to lead, with the unstinting and courageous cooperation of their colleagues deployed overseas, completed the mission assigned to them by the president of the United States and his national security advisers. The latter refused to act on the intelligence they had in hand-which was more than sufficient to capture or kill Osama bin Laden-because of a combination of moral cowardice; a stark fear of media and European criticism; the need to avoid alienating Arab tyrannies who supply our oil and buy our arms and debt; and a desperate desire to avoid doing anything that would hurt the chances of keeping the White House in Democratic hands."

O.k., that last (bolded) bit confuses me.

Last time I checked we have (allegedly) been looking for Osama bin Laden pretty fervently for the last 9 years, but we've only had a Democratic President for the last 2 years....which means that for about 78% of that time the White House was occupied by Republican.

So, is he suggesting that President Obama has been given some specific information that President Bush did not have, that would have allowed him to complete the job that Bush started?

/reminds me a little of the article I read blaming our current problems on "the liberals" when the Republicans have been in power for the majority of my lifetime. I guess people forget that we've actually had a Republican in the White House for 65% of the last 40 years.
 
2010-12-10 02:09:23 PM
www.mapzones.com
 
2010-12-10 02:09:38 PM
Civil_War2_Time: What do you think the unemployment lines would look like if all troops were brought home tomorrow?

Well, presumably they would be brought home and not you know, immediately discharged, but would serve out the rest of their term, and then choose to re-enlist or go to college for free.
 
2010-12-10 02:12:02 PM
Civil_War2_Time: What do you think the unemployment lines would look like if all troops were brought home tomorrow?

Well, the reserves would go back to their jobs...since, well, it is required.

And, the troops that aren't reserves would continue to do their current job which involves being in the military. They just wouldn't get combat zone pay, I guess.
 
2010-12-10 02:13:04 PM
img1.fantasticfiction.co.ukwww.la.cityzine.com

Both good reads.
 
2010-12-10 02:13:04 PM
what_now

Re-enlist to go where, exactly? What jobs are they going to get after they graduate?
 
2010-12-10 02:13:31 PM
what_now: Well, Bush admitted that he didn't care about Bin Laden, and Obama doesn't really mention him.

It doesn't really matter. Bush did more damage to this country than Bin Laden could have dreamed of doing.


Bush did EXACTLY what Bin Laden figured he would do. Why destroy a country yourself when you can get their leader to do it for you (largely)?
 
2010-12-10 02:14:38 PM
 
2010-12-10 02:15:40 PM
Civil_War2_Time: Re-enlist to go where, exactly?

Korea, it seems.

What jobs are they going to get after they graduate?

Whatever LG and Samsung used to do.
 
2010-12-10 02:17:09 PM
Skleenar: How is this at odds with what Scheuer is saying in this piece?

He suggests that a major reason we were attacked was because "what the US government does overseas". I agree with him.

We assist the Saudi regieme stay in control, we and the Brits organized a coup d'état against the Iranian government, we gave assistance to Saddam, as well as to nutjobs in Afghanistan.

Basically, we stick our d*#ks in a bee hive and wonder why we get stung.
 
2010-12-10 02:17:53 PM
Skleenar: Yeah, and it was this passage more than any that makes me question this guy's objectivity. I mean, I only bolded the parts that he would have needed to be psychic to know. It seems he has an axe to grind against Clinton. Plus, dragging Obama into this several times seems that it may be a partisan agenda. I mean I just don't remember the last time Obama even mentioned Osama (despite their similarity in names).

The other thing is: the 9/11 Commission's archive has been opened to the public since January of 2010

something is very odd about that claim.
 
2010-12-10 02:18:13 PM
Civil_War2_Time: what_now

Re-enlist to go where, exactly? What jobs are they going to get after they graduate?


If some go to college, they will still have years for the economy to improve. Plus, smart ones who choose a good major won't hurt looking for jobs. There are plenty out there in engineering fields.

But yeah, won't be good for the unskilled labor jobs.
 
2010-12-10 02:18:25 PM
bulldg4life: Civil_War2_Time: What do you think the unemployment lines would look like if all troops were brought home tomorrow?

Well, the reserves would go back to their jobs...since, well, it is required.


And the spot that was being filled by the reservist returning would likely be a person out of work now unless they never re-filled the reservists spot, and in that case they might not exactly want to keep him for long if they managed just fine without him
 
2010-12-10 02:20:34 PM
Has Obama ever said anything about Bin Laden? Bush did a bunch in the beginning, before it was embarrassing, but I've never heard a word about it from Obama.
 
2010-12-10 02:22:13 PM
canyoneer: I believe Scheuer is talking about this:

So what's his problem? We are engaged in a hot war right now in AfPak, and we currently consider potential civilian (and military) casualties when determining a course of action, as well as some consideration of the affect on international relations. This is what rational people do.

Is he somehow suggesting that Clinton was negligent in not having precognition of the September 11th attacks three years later?
 
2010-12-10 02:22:38 PM
Civil_War2_Time: What do you think the unemployment lines would look like if all troops were brought home tomorrow?

Given that a large number of our troops are reservists, I don't think they'd be much worse. They'd displace some of the temp employees backfilling their jobs, but those people are often underemployed themselves.

Going on a tangent, you have to wonder how much of a productivity hit we lose as a country when a sizable part of our workforce has to up and leave for war. It takes time and money to train their replacements, who must be dumped when the reservist comes home. It cannot be good for our economy.
 
2010-12-10 02:22:48 PM
Dinjiin: Basically, we stick our d*#ks in a bee hive and wonder why we get stung.

No question there.
 
2010-12-10 02:23:40 PM
Civil_War2_Time: what_now

Re-enlist to go where, exactly? What jobs are they going to get after they graduate?


Well, that's two options.

Option the first- re-enlist. Poof. You have a job standing at attention at Fort Hood or Camp Lejune or whatever.

Option the second- say good by to the military and go to college. For free. And get a stipend. When you're done with college, it's been three or four years, and hopefully the economy has improved. Even if it hasn't, you've got a degree, no student loans, and veteran status.

Either way, the current unemployment rate will not be terribly effected.
 
2010-12-10 02:24:27 PM
And just like Bush, Obama is a lying sack of shiat.

Course I really haven't heard Obama so much as mention Bin-Laden.
 
2010-12-10 02:25:21 PM
Skleenar

I think I heard several weeks ago that we still have 28,000 troops in S. Korea. There won't be any more going there as China would see that as posturing and, well, that ain't gonna happen.

Again, and I hope someone can try and answer my question: What happens if all troops are brought home tomorrow? How are they going to get jobs that don't exist, no matter what their experience and education warrants?
 
2010-12-10 02:25:22 PM
make me some tea: I just bought "Imperial Hubris" off Amazon for $4.

I like their early stuff, but it really went downhill after the third album.
 
2010-12-10 02:29:16 PM
martissimo: And the spot that was being filled by the reservist returning would likely be a person out of work now unless they never re-filled the reservists spot, and in that case they might not exactly want to keep him for long if they managed just fine without him

And the unemployment lines would be terribly affected by this (according to his claim)?
 
2010-12-10 02:30:17 PM
Skleenar: Is he somehow suggesting that Clinton was negligent in not having precognition of the September 11th attacks three years later?

I think he is suggesting that the Clinton Administration was too timid in going after bin Laden. IIRC, there was another attempt in Afghanistan (also pre-9-11) that was called off at the last moment because bin Laden was in a hunting camp with some big-shot prince from Abu Dhabi or Bahrain, and the administration didn't want to get the prince splattered along with the target. Too lazy to google it right now.

My only comment is that it probably would have been a good idea to cap bin Laden when we had the chance (no matter the diplomtic/PR fallout), no one could have predicted 9-11, but it was known to our government at the time that bin Laden was determined to carry out mass-casualty attacks against American targets. Whether Clinton was too timid or not, I can't say because I wasn't there and I don't have access to all the information. I was just providing some background info.

And I still think bin Laden is alive and well and residing somewhere on the Arabian Peninsula, probably in the Saudi-Yemeni border region. Just my hunch.
 
2010-12-10 02:31:53 PM
what_now [TotalFark] Quote 2010-12-10 12:57:53 PM

It doesn't really matter. Bush did more damage to this country than Bin Laden could have dreamed of doing.


>>>

Neo-cons and the Reagan revolution have farked up the country for decades, nothing's changed and voters are still like deers in headlights every election cycle.
 
2010-12-10 02:35:15 PM
what_now

Even if it hasn't, you've got a degree, no student loans, and veteran status.

So you've got a degree, and are hoping for a job...like hundreds of thousands are doing today? What's the benefit in that? Pride?
 
2010-12-10 02:36:32 PM
bulldg4life: And the unemployment lines would be terribly affected by this (according to his claim)?

Not really, it would have an effect but how many reserves and national guard are we talking about? 100k or so it looks like from a quick google.
 
2010-12-10 02:38:57 PM
shirtsbyeric: That guy made more sense than any politician I've heard speak on the subject.

Yup.
And I'm STILL pissed about how badly the administration completely f*cked up at Tora Bora. We HAD him. He was RIGHT THERE. There was no fear of "collateral damage", there was no risk of civilian deaths, there was nothing but a big, fat target on the most hated man in the world, and we f*cked it up. We f*cked it up BIG time.

/thanks for ruining my Friday, subby.
 
2010-12-10 02:40:26 PM
canyoneer Quote 2010-12-10 02:30:17 PM

I think he is suggesting that the Clinton Administration was too timid in going after bin Laden. IIRC, there was another attempt in Afghanistan (also pre-9-11) that was called off at the last moment because bin Laden was in a hunting camp with some big-shot prince from Abu Dhabi or Bahrain, and the administration didn't want to get the prince splattered along with the target. Too lazy to google it right now.

>>>

Could you imagine what Republicans would have said if he went after OBL? They already were blasting him for daring to stop genocide in Eastern Europe.
 
2010-12-10 02:40:45 PM
martissimo: Not really, it would have an effect but how many reserves and national guard are we talking about? 100k or so it looks like from a quick google.

Exactly. His original claim implies something a bit more than reality.
 
2010-12-10 02:40:58 PM
Dinjiin: What unsettles me is that only major elected official who has made statements similar to Scheuer's assessment of al-Qaeda's intentions is Ron Paul. When he is the only sane man in the room, you know we have problems.

Which is odd, because given the incumbency rate in our legislature, there was a real chance of the majority of them would have been killed if the events of the 9/11 attacks had gone differently.
 
2010-12-10 02:41:39 PM
To be fair to both Preses, I don't think anybody is claiming to be chasing him anywhere.
 
2010-12-10 02:43:11 PM
A good portion of these individuals truly believe that the United States is being attacked because of its freedoms, liberties, gender equality, Christianity, elections, etc, and not for what the US government does overseas.

Why does the former head of the CIA's Bin Laden Unit hate America? I have been assured on this very site that anyone who believes this is a commie pinko muslin.
 
2010-12-10 02:45:50 PM
Civil_War2_Time: So you've got a degree, and are hoping for a job...like hundreds of thousands are doing today? What's the benefit in that? Pride?

So...they should stay in Iraq?

You said: If we pulled the troops home they'd all go on unemployment.

I said: No, some of them would go to college, but most of them would stay in, as they have contracts to fulfil.

Then you said: What good is college???

Now I'm pointing out that sending these guys to college 1) delays their entry to the work force to give the economy time to heal and 2) increases their chance of getting hired, because now they have a degree.
 
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