Hey Bullplenty Whats your bible say about this?

Yeah.

(large black man voice)

Now people are going to come from all over the country to pray in that church.

I might go, but not pray. That's got to look as cool as hell.

/no pun intended

I wasn't there, but I heard the pastor's sermon was electrifying.

/rimshot

It's the Rapture! Quick, hide Bart before God comes!

God works in mysterious ways, when he's in teh mood to cause $20,000 of damage.

So which god did they piss off to get zapped by lightning?

Zues, Thor, Jeebus, Vishnu?

I can never keep them all straight, there are just so many.

I did something like this once. It was on the 18th hole during a thunderstorm. No, wait, that was Caddyshack...

Don't bother God when he's playing Vice City.

According to earlier news God's sign is in Germany being hit by naked people having sex while driving.

That is all.

A church in Beloit, Wisconsin where I went to school was struck by lightning, as well, but this one burned to the ground. They rebuilt it and it opened again a couple of years ago, so I'm just waiting for the fire and brimstone to come from the sky this time. I can't decide whether to become religious or put up lightning rods when I hear about things like this.

And they took this as a GOOD sign?
If I was in that church and that happened I would seriously consider converting.

I bet Buddha struck him with lightning, or so i've heard he had powers of lightning

I'm shocked, shocked to find that signs from God are happening here.

God needs to get with it and burn more churches.

that God sure is a trickester...

"Where's your Messiah NOW?"

/Chief Wiggum

I use to date a girl from Forest .... That town is werid as hell

That's what happens when you rub Yaweh the wrong way...

/somebody put me out of misery

The Forest Fire Department?


Shouldn't it have been the Church Fire Department...?

Heh, excellent. A script writer couldn't have done it better.

Of course, as with everything in religion, this can be interpreted any way you like...

Cthulhu did it!!

Having the tallest structure around struck by lightning during a thunderstorm is a sign from God?

No, just a smart and manipulative preacher playing some even odds!

Can this happen to regular people like me? Cause I got some built up repression about religion I need to get off my chest.

Q: Why are there so many churches (or being P.C., places of worship) in Tennessee?

A: The number of sinners.

Forest Fire Dept? Someone must have a hard on for Smokey Bear...

Now even God doesn't like the Baptists. I guess he's trying to save us from his followers...

And remember:



He's lucky that lightening was all he did!!!!

MUAHAHAHAHAHAA!

Afterward, services resumed for about 20 minutes, but then the congregation realized that the church was on fire and the building was evacuated.

For some reason, this struck me as the funniest thing I've read in a long time.

Methinks that was a message that says "SHADDUP ALREADY!"

Furthermore, is Bevets coming to offer an explanation?

More like "scary"

How do they know it was God? Maybe Zeus or Odin threw the bolt. God's being made a scapegoat here ... He normally just sends email or puts on a late night infomercial if he wants to convey a message.

Maybe it was Odin, the God of Lightning ? you can never know.

And Lord Jebus did say unto the anoying preacher STFU with a bolt of righteous lightening...

"Cheney said the lightning traveled through the microphone and enveloped the preacher, but he was not injured."

GOD - "Dammit, missed again"!

I just think it is really funny that that dude's name is "Cheney".

Odin is not the God of Lightning, you Heathens!!

Thor is! Odin is the God of Kings and the god of Wisdom... I think.

Either way, Thor is the one with the lightning blasts.

The_Hood: Yeah, I found that odd... How do you sit in a building that's on fire for 20 minutes without noticing?

Just goes to show that God has a sense of humor. Got to go confess something now...

"Er... except Zeus or Odin would count as God's, wouldn't they? And I'm not sure if Odin was the god of Lightning.. bah, I need to brush up on my Norse Mythology."--felgraf

No, Zeus, Odin, God, Santa Claus, etc. are all separate and distinct characters. Not sure if Odin threw lightning bolts either, but I do know Thor threw a Hammer ... and a great party too.

They shouldn't have forgotten their sacrifices to Tlaloc.

Was the question "Should we renovate the steeple?"

Maybe this guy should look into it.

Oh I see, he was "emphasizing penance".
That works.

I bet the boys in that town don't masturbate for a long, long time.

Oh, optikeye, I'm crying. Golf pro...fabulous episode. Thanks for reminding me of that one.

I have your fire and brimstone right here in my pants!

Can I get an Amen?

I think that guy will be getting LOTS of Amens from now on.

Very X2 X-Men United. The Father , the Son and the Halle Spirit ZAP! I think that it's pretty cool though, esp. as no one was hurt. I guess when God deigns to give a sign, subtlety ain't in the cards.

(INSERT SOME WITTY BACK TO THE FUTURE JOKE HERE. I'd do it myself, but I....



/got nothing)

"Holy smoke," said the preacher as the church burned down.

gurglesnap:
great scott

"Yes, I rather like this God fellow. He's very theatrical, you know, a pestilence here, a plague there. Omnipotence: gotta get me some of that." --The Family Guy

I was actually born during a thunderstorm, while my (very soon to be) aunt and uncle were being married. Lightning struck the church during the ceremony and during the commotion someone ran down the center aisle yelling "It's a boy!". I was eventually forgiven for upstaging their wedding.

TheRapy
Thor was the God of Thunder, not lightning. Thunder being that big rumbly noise you hear after that big bright flash which is lightning.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think he had something to do with forging the lightning, hence the hammer. But anyway it was Odin who threw it.

"You need any more signs, asshat?"

Here's a crazy thought. What if it wasn't some mysterious super-powerful consciousness at all?

What if lightning was caused by differing electrical charges between the stormclouds and the ground, and follows the easiest path to the ground, which means tall things like church steeples?

Wouldn't it be freaky if there was a scientific explanation for things like physics?

/going to hell

I wonder why Vishnu would do a thing like that?

I wonder if this really happened at all. It might show up on snopes.com under "glurge". I'm betting it's an urban folk tale.

By your 'logic', Chad, "yellow" is always the wrong answer because it does not answer the question "what is X plus Y".

In the simpliest terms, Science asks "how" and Philosophy asks "why". Science is not the only validating test.

If lightining is the wrath of god, he sure seems to hate trees.

"Here's a crazy thought. .... Wouldn't it be freaky if there was a scientific explanation for things like physics?"

HERETIC! BURN HIM! ;-)

Physics is the orderly observation of the works of God.

A tall building with a metal spiky thing on top attract lightning...

Who never saw this coming...?

Only God knows, MFM.

That was just a warning shot.

Some "warning shot" YF.
I bet it scared the hell out of that Pastor.

Literally.

By your 'logic', Chad, "yellow" is always the wrong answer because it does not answer the question "what is X plus Y".

It did on my College Algebra final. That might be why I failed College Algebra.

Nanookanano, if it happened to me, I'd definitely be saying less and listening more. And if the church has any sense, they'll seek another guest preacher next time.

There is no scientific basis for the belief in God.
One might as well attempt to measure infinity in microns.
Science is for specifying, Philosophy is for generalizing.
Don't make the sophomoric mistake of crossing the fields for your own purposes.

I saw it happen for real, Alto. I had a friend who crapped-out of a two hour biology final by responding to the single essay question "What is life" by responding "Life is like a banana: You can peel it and eat it, or you can shove it up your ass." He knew he was going to fail, so he went big.

Sorry . . I'm preaching again.

My bad.

As concerns the oddity of this coincidence:

1.) How many lightening strikes take place any given hour, over the surface of the Earth?

2.) How many people are ranting about religion at any given hour, over the surface of the Earth?

3.) What are the odds of the two occuring in the same place?

Maybe the fact that it *doesn't* happen every day is a sign.

Forgive me, I've found yet another reflection on this.

"Proving the existence of X" is a scientific process.
Applying it to the philosophical concept "God" is always futile, often distructive, and (worst of all) unscientific. "God" is a 'let-it-be-given' operating environment in which formalized, synthetical meditations of all available experiential data can yield enlightenments beyond direct proof.

I think.

If you check out the Bible, it states pretty clearly that you can't prove the existence of God. There's consistency for ya.

"Three Bolts, No Strikes" by E.Y. Harburg

When lightning struck the steeple
Of the Church of San Jose,
It barely missed the brothel
That was just across the way.

from "Rhymes for the Irreverent"

Here's a good question. If God could do something like that to let others know he's still alive and kicking; Why couldn't he produce something very unique and remove all doubt as to it being a sign from God?

For instance, showing up on Larry King Live would certainly convert a hell of a lot of people over wouldnt it?

Aw, but Cthulhu is sooooo cute !



and festive!!

"There are no plush fire ant dolls."

--Radio commercial

This is CNN......CNN.....CNN

Science asks "how" and Philosophy asks "why".

I have to call shenanigans on this kind of thinking. We're not talking about a decision that was made by someone, so there is no real "why". We're talking about lightning hitting something. In cases of purely natural phenomena, the "why" is explained by the "how". Why did lightning hit that church steeple? Because the electrical build-up caused by the storm clouds and the ground was great enough in that particular location at that particular time to produce an electrical discharge. It happened in a location where there was a tall structure providing a path for the electricity to the ground. That's both how and why it happened. Now, if it skipped the tall church steeple and struck some small, much lower-to-the-ground object that was right next to the church, I would wonder why that happened. But adding some philosphical aspect to a situation such as lightning hitting a church tower is pointless. It explains itself.

Of course the people in the church were praying and asking god for signs and such, what the hell else do people do in church?

Besides, if I was the type to believe in signs from god and that sort of thing, and this happened in my church, I'd never let that dude in the door ever again.

"Hey, where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?"

faethe, my mommy sent me the christmas cthulhu one year for st. nick's day. freaked out my roommates somewhat. but she's a weird one at that.

The simpliest terms are always inaccurate, Chad.
I make no apologies for that.

The philosophical question that leaps to mind is "Why are the people so concerned with contrition that their pastor is begging God for a sign.

You're the one adding philosophy to science. That's natural, science is your only cognitive environment. That's not your fault. That's what our shoddy public school system teaches us these days. To contemplate things in a philosophical light you have to start and end within that paradigm. Don't leap from one to the other.

Who here besides me knows how to capture lighting? Rhetorical question. It seems to me that a lot of people would know how to catch lightning. Including the pastor.

On the other hand, let's say that this was a supernatural event. What does it say about a church when God answers you with lightning and a fire burning down your church?

Eric Clapton says to stop wasting his damn time with your petty human requests.

Eh, dude? Try to stay on course. We aren't talking about the mindsets of the people in the church. Or, at least, I wasn't. I was making (in the form of a jest I might add) the simple statement that the lightning bolt wasn't likely an "act of god" so much as it was a "lightning bolt".

If you wanted to philosophize on why people in church are always looking for god to send them signs so that their actions or motivations will be validated, then that'd be an entirely different discussion. All I ever mentioned was the lightning striking the church and that to add "meaning" to such an event is kinda foolish.

But that's okay, I guess it was a little hard to follow.

The reason I preach/lecture at length about this is that it's a vicious cycle. Scientific types feel threatened by what they see as fictitious, irrational, controlling rules made-up by deluded, power-hungry people. So they challenge, "Prove your God exists." The theological types, in turn, feel threatended by the inhuman, unnatural, controlling machinations created by obsessive, power-hungry people. So, they respond with, "You're going to Hell, buddy." And, 'round and 'round it goes.

"Stop the world, I want to get off."

What is amusing about this? I bet the preist was one of the ones who molested some little kid but he never fessed up..

Here's a crazy thought. What if it wasn't some mysterious super-powerful consciousness at all?

What if lightning was caused by differing electrical charges between the stormclouds and the ground, and follows the easiest path to the ground, which means tall things like church steeples?

Wouldn't it be freaky if there was a scientific explanation for things like physics?

This is not hard to follow. (Perhaps I've hurt your feelings, and you're trying to insult me.) It is a perfectly valid scientific observation. I don't fault you for writing this, at all. And, I'm not 'straw manning'. I'm just observing, in turn, that folks often refute the presence of "that big, invisible bully in the sky" with their most lucid, scientific methodology when they feel threatend by religion. And, I think that feeling threatened by something that is supposed to be a private meditation for the betterment of one's self is a terrible perversion of the motive behind the method. Perhaps, just perhaps, religion wouldn't be so f-cked-up if you science-only types would just leave it the hell alone. After all, isn't that what you want from the religion-only types?

Mick FOley denies any involvement.

Soze

Yer mummy sounds absolutley cool to me :). There is supposed to be a superhero cthulu coming out next...yea!!!

Nanokananoo

Yeah, I get into it with the people from Fark about religion peridocially - playing devil's advocate to the science crowd. My whole feeling on this is that religion, because of it's enduring popularity (way back to goddess figurines) does possess the same significance as science - it all depends on your perspective. It's rough on the science crowd, because yes, you cannot prove any of it, it's not based on any discreet methodology, and produces dubious results if any whatsoever. Goes against the grain of scientific investigation, which while not stating that it is the only method relevant to the discovery of truth, is not willing to take things on nothing more than faith. I think the science crowd therefore, find the religious crowd vaguely insulting and blashphemous in the face of a tried and true method that is not easily attained.

You know - the ultimate truth is probably lodged comfortably between the two - else why are they so diametrically opposed in theory? - Faethe's Corrolary to Einstein

Hey Stryper! Have you seen that grimacing 'smiley face' with the logo "Have a hardcore day"?
Where does that come from?

faethe
I think the most valuable application of theological meditations (as I call it) is not any conclusion. Conclusions are a scientific goal. I think the trip is the thing. It's the going, not the arriving that is important. Zen archery has one practicing the loosing of the arrow long before it has one practicing the aiming of the arrow.

Why can't God give signs like this to the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell?

Maybe they're not really men of God.

Or, they're just not looking for a sign.

If you really need a sign from God, you'll find one somewhere, somehow, when you're ready to accept it.

Nanookanano

That's a really interesting observation for sure. And yeah - that marries the two in that how can you be effective at thinking unless you have cleared yourself to begin with? Hmmmmm....lot better than rattling around with "This is Bulshiat" rolling around in your head, white noise. No wonder the Japanese will eventually kick the world's arse. To them, the details aren't nearly as important as the goal. No doubt they have a meditation olympics of some form or another :)

Oh don't make the assumption that I'm threatened by religion or the idea of god. It's just that I think there's time when science and religion are alternatively the appropriate course for finding the conclusion to a situation.

In my mind, science and religion don't threaten each other because they can't, when it's boiled down, actually enter each others' realms. Science answers all of the questions about how and why things work. It gives us answers on problems we face like transportation, communication, everything mundane and physical that we need and want to know. Religion, on the other hand, answers all of the questions on such things as ethics and behaviors, how we should treat each other and get along. One school cannot answer the other's questions.

What frustrates me is when people attempt to apply the inappropriate methodology to a situation, i.e. trying to figure out why lightning struck a church tower in a thunderstorm via religion and faith, instead of the school in which the answer to that questions really lies, which is science.

That make any sense or am I just rambling incoherently now?

I believe this falls under the catagory of, "Be careful what you ask for, you just may get it."

Now I see we're arguing along with each other, rather than against each other, Chad. That's the stuff I'm saying, rather badly I'm afraid.

Faethe, I think that's why concepts like heaven and hell can be so obviously, even comically, fabulous. It's rather like Niven's wanderer traveling to the base of the arch. He'll never get there, but it'll be a heck of a trip. Spiritual people do things for no reward. It's most illogical. But then, some things are just worth doing, anyway.

"We should take care not to make the intellect our god. It has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality."
--Einstein

Nanookanoo - That's kinda what I figured was going on. I stumble on my own words sometimes and fail to communicate clearly. But hey, as long as I know what I mean! haha

Take care.

there are devils in that church. They put salt in the holy water to attract electricity

Everything is a sign from God.

The question "Are science and religion mutually incompatible systems of thought?" is not answerable by bromides or witticisms, and it won't be answered on a messageboard.

The real question is whether the Doc read the letter.

Hehe...funny Number of the Beast by Iron Maiden started playing in my mp3 list just when I started reading about this. I'm not even going to comment on my fark nickname ;)

"it won't be answered on a messageboard"

Sez who?

Seriously redrobot, I apologise if I have struck you as tiresome and/or fatuous. I understand the feeling: Sometimes I get sick-and-tired of hearing me talk, too.

Oh hell! I just can't resist:

Are science and religion mutually incompatible systems of thought?

No, they're not.

See?! See?! That question got answered on a board!
Woo-hoo! It's a miracle!

I'm sorry co-conspirator, are you talking to me?
You seem to have me confused with some kind of a religious person.

However, thank you for your permission to believe what I like. That's most kind of you.

I've never once claimed that there is a God in Heaven who sees everything I do. Not once. I simply act as if there is a God in Heaven who sees everything I do. Every day.

Well . . I do my best to act that way.

In reality... philosophy says that you can't prove the existence of anything, even yourself. But I won't get into that.

I've never once claimed that there is a God in Heaven who sees everything I do. Not once. I simply act as if there is a God in Heaven who sees everything I do. Every day.

"Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened."

You know your stuff, YF. I'm impressed.

Actually I was being a smart ass with the answer to that incompatibility question. (Big suprise there, eh?) So here's the real answer:

The modes of thought are both absolutely compatible and absolutely incompatible. Which answer you get depends upon which mode of thinking you are using.

(Or, the answer could just be "42". You decide.)

Oh, and both answers are true and valid.

Wrap your head around that and approach wisdom.
(I'm still working on it, myself.)

for bump:

I love flamewars

Here, Schrodi-Schrodi-Schrodi. Good kitty-kitty-kitty.
Get in the cat carrier . . if you're not already in there.

Nanookanano, I think it was Godel that turned the mathematics community on its head by proving that it is impossible to create a mathematical system that is entirely self-consistent, that is, one in which you cannot make statements that are contradictory, like "This statement is false." So, even science is not an end in itself. Not only are all things not knowable, they're not even all proveable.

Physics has these problems, too. Is light a wave, or a particle? Both at the same time? Relativity or quantum mechanics? Will there ever be a unified theory? Is it even possible?

And with religion, at least the one I'm familiar with, how can God be sovereign, and yet man has free will? They seem to contradict, yet we are told they are both true? This particular biblical mystery probably causes the most division within the protestant community.

I do find it interesting that so many people in science today find themselves completely opposed to religion. It's actually a recent thing, I think. Newton was a committed deist, and even Einstein a believer. And I'm nearly convinced that Carl Sagan was a Scientologist. ;)

"Men became scientific because they expected Law in Nature, and they expected Law in Nature because they believed in a Legislator. In most modern scientists this belief has died: it will be interesting to see how long their confidence in uniformity survives it. Two significant developments have already appeared the hypothesis of a lawless sub-nature, and the surrender of the claim that science is true. We may be living nearer than we suppose to the end of the Scientific Age."
--C. S. Lewis

I haven't read any C.S. Lewis, but I feel like I should, and probably will one day.

You've read The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe, haven't you?

Read Mere Christianity.
It's a great example of a scientist coming to faith.
Classic stuff.

Young_Fart:

I think Newton was a theist. Einstein as even a deist is a bit of a stretch. I don't think I'm familiar with the sovereign God/man's free will contradiction. God the manipulator?

swahnhennessy

That's what happens when you rub Yaweh the wrong way...

Static electricity?

Lord, if you want me to eat these cookies for you, please give me no sign.

(pause)

Thy will be done!

/Homer

Nanookanano

"We may be living nearer than we suppose to the end of the Scientific Age."
--C. S. Lewis

The scientific age hasn't even begun.

I didn't say it couldn't, co-con. I was overgeneralizing for the sake of highlighting the differing intentions/applications of the modes of thinking.

How do you think so, ponte?
BTW: Lewis wrote that in 1947.

co-conspirator: How does science answer WHY? They try to. Their answer is "There is no WHY. It just is." Not much of an answer to some.

After 9/11 I heard many calls for God to bless America.

Seems that everything the Christian God "blesses" gets attacked, destroyed, hit by lightening and/or blowed up real good.

Maybe you should just stop bothering him!

God mumbles... "Don't question me biatch, I am the almighty and I decide when I give signs, not you"... waggles fingers... "how do you like me now?"

Science has been developing at a geometric rate since the Renaissance. We're now in the most exciting and dramatic increase of technological advancement in history. Remember, when we were kids "Pong" was amazing. Now, kids expect "Halo". But that means that a scientist, of any sort, must study all his life in a very narrow field in order to make the smallest advancement of scientific knowlege. I wouldn't be at all surprised if scientific advancement 'bonked' within my lifetime. Then, I suppose, humanity will have to put away the toys and grow-up.

Cheeseburger, I was channel surfing the other day, and ended up on C-SPAN. They were doing one of those book shows where the author gives a short lecture and answers questions at a bookstore. This happened to be a guy who had just written a book about Newton. Apparently Newton wrote an awful lot, and much of it has survived, even though there is very little publish Newton material. One of the things that Newton spent a lot of personal time studying was the bible, and had even reached a conclusion that would have been scandalous for the time, if it had ever gotten out: Newton didn't believe in the Trinity. He believed Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separate and unequal entities, with the Father being at the top of the hierarchy.

As for Einstein, didn't he have trouble accepting quantum mechanics because he said "God doesn't play dice with the universe" ?

About the sovereignty of God/free will of man, yes it's a big deal in Christianity. Whenever you see a "freewill" Baptist church, this is what they're talking about. It's really hard to cover in a forum like Fark, and I'm not even sure I'm qualified, but if you do a little bit of research on Calvinism you'll probably find more than you think you want to know. The trouble is, if a man is dead in sin, and therefore unable to fellowship with or approach God, then how can he come to acquire a knowledge of saving grace? It's sort of like a chicken vs. egg question. How can a man choose God, unless God chooses him first? And if God chooses him, how can he refuse?

Science has been developing at a geometric rate since the Renaissance.

People have been expanding at an incredible rate, too. Much of our progress can be attributed to the massive number of people doing research. When you combine that with our ability to communicate that knowledge rapidly, we get something that, for all it's bad press in the business community, really does exist: synergy.

Nanookanano

The vast majority of people alive today do not know how to reason scientifically.

Btw, I define "God" as the sum-total of sentient observers. I suppose that means I'm pantheistic. Divinity is an emergent property of shared consciousness.

So, yes, everything is a sign. And as Umberto Eco said, a sign is anything that can be used to lie.

Young_Fart:

Right. Newton was a Christian(some Christians don't believe in the Trinity), which would make him something other than a deist. Tried to make sense of Revelations. I've only read some of Einstein's remarks/speeches referencing God on the web, not ink on paper, but it seems he was aware of an order to the universe, but not willing/inclined to commit to a designer.

I know nothing of Calvinism. Guess I'll check it out. Seems like some sects just have nothing better to do than complicate a simple thing. Thanks for answering.

Well, I guess it really depends how you define 'God'.

If it's some omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnibenevolent higher entity who has always existed and always will, the Alpha and the Omega and the yaddayaddayadda, then much as I would love to believe in such a creature, the fact is, too much evil occurs in the world for me to be able to believe there is someone all-powerful, all-knowing, always present and all good watching out for me (and other people). To say that God keeps hands off humanity to allow us free will is ridiculous, since if you believe the Bible (which would be in keeping with the Christian doctrine and definition of God), there have been plenty of times in the past where God has stepped in to stop what He considered evil.

I won't even mention all the incongruities, inconsistencies, errors and general irrationalities present in the Bible, since those could always be attributed to the failure of Man, but you'd think if God really cared enough to set things straight, He would (and would have by now).

If there is a God, then He needs to move over so I can step in. If I were God, I wouldn't let even half the shiat that goes down in this world go on... not the jihads, not the pogroms, not the crusades, not the holocausts, not the abuses, not the rapes, not the famines, not the diseases, not the accidents, not the tortures, not the poverty, not the lies, not the general stinking human evil that exists on this Earth.

So what if humankind doesn't have free will? If you believe in religion, we don't have any free will anyway. God has already foreseen all that we ever was, is, or ever will be. He has seen everything we ever did, what we're doing now, or what we'll ever do. Everything is already done, the future, the past and the present is immutable, and every mistake we've made is unrectifiable.

But it could have been stopped, if an omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient Creator was watching out for us. There certainly would be no Hell if I were God, no Devil to do lead men astray, no sins that could be committed, no lies that could be told.

And if God is Alanis Morrissette, I'm going to kill myself right now. I'd rather rule in Hell than listen to Alanis in Heaven. :P Talk about my head exploding...

/Ottawa sucks, and the Senators too. :P

Ur, that should be "God has already foreseen all that we ever /were/, is, or ever will be. He has seen everything we ever did, what we're doing now, or what we'll ever do. Everything is already done, the future, the past and the present /are/ immutable, and every mistake we've made is unrectifiable.

/ex-Christian Fundamentalist-turned-atheist

When dealing with the Almighty you best be careful what you ask for.

I think God was in a foul mood after having just watched the movie "Bruce Almighty".

In medieval Europe and England, ringing the church bell could be a hazardous occupation. During thunderstorms, it was general practice to ring church bells violently in an effort to keep the lightning from striking the tall church spire. Some felt the clamor of the bells dispersed evil spirits that sought to destroy the church with fire; others claimed that the noise of the bells disrupted the lightning strokes. (The second reason explains the common inscription on medieval bells: Fulgura Frango. which means "I break up the lightning flashes."). During the years from 1753 to 1786, lightning struck 386 French church towers. Lightning running down the bell ropes killed 103 French bell ringers. In 1786, the French government finally outlawed the custom.

From http://www.exploratorium.edu/ronh/weather/weather.html

This whole story sounds like something that was made up. Maybe lightening struck the church, but I think all the rest of that shiat was totally fabricated by the Evangelists (the lightening in the mic cord, the engulfing of the preacher, the preacher asking for a sign, etc.). Mass hysteria, I say. These religious nutballs are prone to it. Remember the witch trials?

Church Catches Fire
Can I get a "HAW! HAW!"?

Legal shiat: "HAW! HAW!"(r)(tm)(c) is property of Jack Chick enterprises, INC, LLC, BFD, XXX. Or something like that.

pontechango

The scientific age hasn't even begun.

I agree. Look at what we've done in just a hundred years once manufacturing processes caught up with what we could theoretically achieve, and theoretical achievements had enough ground knowledge under them to practically reach critical mass.

How much more do we know now than we did even in 1900, and how many more life-changing inventions are still ideas in sci-fi books but oh so close to being reality.

If they ever get teleportation, antigravity, strong AI or home production of energy (electricity) sorted out, this world will look as different in 3003 as 1503 does to us now.

Wish I could be around to marvel at it.

So... did some whiny p*ssy get around to saying "Oh look, another round of Christian-bashing" because someone cracked the obvious joke about lightning striking a church yet? Because that's what I like to see: someone with a stick up their ass to "initiate" a round of Christian bashing with their annoying comment.

Well if you believe there's too much evil in the world to warrant an omnibenevolent God, then Gnosticism may be the dead religion for you!

There IS a God named YHVH; he is just a whiny young man who never grew up and likes to throw tantrums. His mother Sophia, goddess of all that is well and good, will scold him every now and again.

There IS a Satan as well; many of them in fact. Their leader and YHVH are spirited rivals and hold round-table discussions frequently on matters of believers and the world at large; by YHVH's will so does Satan do his deeds. Their most famous experiment was testing the faith of Job.

Actually I have no clue.... I was kinda rambling.

Krantzstone

Ur, that should be "God has already foreseen all that we ever /were/, is, or ever will be. He has seen everything we ever did, what we're doing now, or what we'll ever do. Everything is already done, the future, the past and the present /are/ immutable, and every mistake we've made is unrectifiable.

/ex-Christian Fundamentalist-turned-atheist

And once again the pendulum swings too far in the other direction.

sens says:
"Is it not possible, even logical, to assume that we didn't come from nowhere; that we had to come from somewhere, some entity, some form of consciousness far beyond our own, and that "God," as we've named him, is the architect of it all? That he has been the mastermind behind evolution, and all other things that have led us to this point?"

And this 'god' came from ... where exactly? Are you gonna use the 'he was always here' crap? If we go by this law of the universe (the 'crap doesn't come out of nowhere' law) then god has to apply to it as well.

We don't KNOW enough to know where we came from yet and we probably never will. Here is my question ... why does it MATTER where we came from? Isn't it OK to not know something? Who freaking cares where we came from. We are here. Let's deal with that problem first (not killing, hating, and other wise being asses to each other).