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(Cato)   Unconstitutional college speech codes return in the form of anti-bullying rules. Naturally, statist liberals are backing it to the hilt   (cato-at-liberty.org) divider line 169
    More: Asinine, Washington Monthly, out-of-court settlements, Brandeis, reasonable person, Tufts University, speech codes, arithmetic means, free speech  
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2107 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Nov 2010 at 12:39 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



169 Comments   (+0 »)
   

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2010-11-24 10:42:42 AM  
I'm a liberal who opposes this 1st Amendment-infringing anti-bullying rule.

Seriously, are the precious snowflakes so susceptible to butthurt that we need anti-internet trolling laws?

/in during "liberal who opposes this 1st Amendment-infringing anti-bullying rule" post.
 
2010-11-24 10:47:53 AM  
'Statist' is pretty much my favorite Libertarian-speak. It's almost as good as 'producers.'
 
2010-11-24 10:53:31 AM  
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Or else.
 
2010-11-24 11:15:34 AM  
How is it unconstitutional if you sign a University Code of Conduct?

You don't *have* to sign it, and the Universities don't *have* to admit you.

Perdue, Brandeis and Tufts are private colleges.
 
2010-11-24 11:19:43 AM  
what_now: How is it unconstitutional if you sign a University Code of Conduct?

You don't *have* to sign it, and the Universities don't *have* to admit you.

Perdue, Brandeis and Tufts are private colleges.




Congress is introducing a bill. Something they're not supposed to do. It's not just university policy.
 
2010-11-24 12:30:11 PM  
Aarontology: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Or else.

Do you know who else told their citizens that?

/Yea I know.
 
2010-11-24 12:42:52 PM  
Did Phil_Herup submit this headline?

I love how it's all "statist liberals" this and "authoritarian liberals" that... until Republicans take office, and then speaking against the government means you hate freedom and apple pie.
 
2010-11-24 12:43:59 PM  
Crosshair: Aarontology: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Or else.

Do you know who else told their citizens that?

/Yea I know.


Jerry Brown?
 
2010-11-24 12:45:08 PM  
so do you guys think we have the constitutional right to sneak a webcam of our dorm roomate having sex to the internet as a prank?
 
2010-11-24 12:45:09 PM  
Nice headline, neconmitter. How would this possibly be considered unconstitutional? The freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to hate.
 
2010-11-24 12:49:14 PM  
Fun fact: most colleges have a student council that take care of issues like this already. No need for government intervention.
 
2010-11-24 12:50:59 PM  
Hobodeluxe: so do you guys think we have the constitutional right to sneak a webcam of our dorm roomate having sex to the internet as a prank?

If one was only so lucky!
 
2010-11-24 12:51:44 PM  
HeartBurnKid: Did Phil_Herup submit this headline?

Exactly what I was thinking.
 
2010-11-24 12:52:38 PM  
francisright: Nice headline, neconmitter. How would this possibly be considered unconstitutional? The freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to hate.

Um, yes it does.
 
2010-11-24 12:53:02 PM  
I'm a liberal who opposes it. I wonder how the liberals at the ACLU feel about it.
 
2010-11-24 12:53:18 PM  
Hobodeluxe: so do you guys think we have the constitutional right to sneak a webcam of our dorm roomate having sex to the internet as a prank?

So do YOU think it's ok to take an axe to your neighbors car while you sing "Sweet Dreams are Made of This" in your best Annie Lennox falsetto?
 
2010-11-24 12:53:28 PM  
francisright: Nice headline, neconmitter. How would this possibly be considered unconstitutional? The freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to hate.

Actually, it does. Hate groups like the KKK enjoy and often exercise this right, legally.
 
2010-11-24 12:53:41 PM  
what_now: How is it unconstitutional if you sign a University Code of Conduct?

You don't *have* to sign it, and the Universities don't *have* to admit you.

Perdue, Brandeis and Tufts are private colleges.



FTFY
 
2010-11-24 12:53:53 PM  
In libertarian-lingo I'm clearly a "statist liberal", yet I do not back this bill. How about engaging with me on the subject instead of immediately treating me as the enemy?
 
2010-11-24 12:55:24 PM  
francisright: Nice headline, neconmitter. How would this possibly be considered unconstitutional? The freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to hate.

Are you honestly trying to say that you aren't free to hate in the US?
 
2010-11-24 12:56:19 PM  
Dr. Mojo PhD: francisright: Nice headline, neconmitter. How would this possibly be considered unconstitutional? The freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to hate.

Um, yes it does.


Even if it didn't seriously, are we going to prosecute thought crimes?

You're free to hate anything/anyone. How you act on that hate is another matter.
 
2010-11-24 12:56:47 PM  
Hobodeluxe: so do you guys think we have the constitutional right to sneak a webcam of our dorm roomate having sex to the internet as a prank?

For right wing college activists, sneaking cameras and tape recorders into places is what they do. They snuck cameras into ACORN offices.

They even snuck a tape recorder into a Senator's phone line without them knowing. I don't that one turned out so well.

Oh those crazy College Republicans!
 
2010-11-24 12:56:50 PM  
francisright: The freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to hate.

Yeah. Yeah it does.

However, the freedom to speak does not include the freedom to harass.
 
2010-11-24 12:59:25 PM  
wtf is a "statist liberal"? Can we please stop making up shiat names for people whose ideas scare us?
 
2010-11-24 12:59:49 PM  
thurstonxhowell: In libertarian-lingo I'm clearly a "statist liberal", yet I do not back this bill. How about engaging with me on the subject instead of immediately treating me as the enemy?

That'd require thinking of you as a human being and not as a parasitic puppet of the evil gubmint. So not going to happen.
 
2010-11-24 01:00:17 PM  
And naturally, conservatives are fighting tooth and nail for the right to abuse others.
 
2010-11-24 01:01:18 PM  
Zagloba: francisright: The freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to hate.

Yeah. Yeah it does.

However, the freedom to speak does not include the freedom to harass.


And we already have laws against harassment, stalking, invasion of privacy (is it legal to install a hidden webcam anywhere you like?) and trespassing.

College kids are adults. They're over 18. They can legally fend for themselves. This proposed law is garbage, and anyone who supports it needs to take a college-level Constitutional Law class.
 
2010-11-24 01:03:31 PM  
francisright: The freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to hate.

Of course it does, don't be ridiculous. But speech has consequences in the real world.

You have the *right* to be an Illinois Nazi. That doesn't mean you can't be fired or kicked out of a University if you damage the reputation of your work or school.
 
2010-11-24 01:05:29 PM  
Dr Dreidel: This proposed law is garbage, and anyone who supports it needs to take a college-level Constitutional Law class.

The proposed law is unnecessary because we already have laws in place, yes. But it sure as hell isn't "unconstitutional" for Congress to pass a useless law because public opinion is tuned into a particular issue for a few months.
 
2010-11-24 01:05:30 PM  
Crosshair: Do you know who else told their citizens that?

/Yea I know.


President Big Bird?
 
2010-11-24 01:06:02 PM  
People have killed themselves and shot up schools and campuses over bullying. Nobody, to my knowledge, has killed himself or others because an authority figure told him to save the limpdick shiat-talk for the dorm room.
 
2010-11-24 01:10:17 PM  
Wow I didn't know Colleges were part of the US government.


I guess then colleges can't have rules against plagiarism too because that would also infringe on 1st amendment rights.



So in college I can call my professor an asshole and not get any repercussion because it's my 1st amendment right?
 
2010-11-24 01:11:03 PM  
I'm not sure I support this law, but I do think that Universities can set a higher standard of behavior in the classroom, and in University facilities such as student housing without necessarily running afoul of the First Amendment. If bullying is going to be made punishable, then the actual content of the bullying should be immaterial. i.e. Bullying a Christian for being Christian should be no different than bullying a gay kid for being gay.
 
2010-11-24 01:11:28 PM  
what_now: You have the *right* to be an Illinois Nazi. That doesn't mean you can't be fired or kicked out of a University if you damage the reputation of your work or school.

Yes, and that's fine. But the government shouldn't be telling workplaces or post-secondary schools what acceptable conduct should and shouldn't be.

There's a slew of "offenses" that you can be fired or expelled for that aren't anywhere near illegal, nor should they be. If Tire Store A wants to employ Illinois Nazis and Tire Store B wants to fire Illinois Nazis, the government should not exist to tell A to be more like B, especially not under pain.
 
2010-11-24 01:12:27 PM  
francisright: Nice headline, neconmitter. How would this possibly be considered unconstitutional? The freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to hate.

Well..
Unless you hate gays. And even then... ONLY if you hate them by protesting military funerals instead of actually protesting and verbally attacking the gays.
/amirite ?
 
2010-11-24 01:12:51 PM  
Corvus: Wow I didn't know Colleges were part of the US government.


I guess then colleges can't have rules against plagiarism too because that would also infringe on 1st amendment rights.



So in college I can call my professor an asshole and not get any repercussion because it's my 1st amendment right?


Sorry didn't see it was a law passed by congress.

Nevermind. I think colleges should create their own rules not congress.

Congress should not be involved with this matter.
 
2010-11-24 01:13:51 PM  
Corvus: Wow I didn't know Colleges were part of the US government.


I guess then colleges can't have rules against plagiarism too because that would also infringe on 1st amendment rights.



So in college I can call my professor an asshole and not get any repercussion because it's my 1st amendment right?


You are free to call him an asshole, and he is free to act as he sees fit. If you got arrested for calling him an asshole, that would be unconstitutional. You have freedom of speech, not freedom from the consequences.
 
2010-11-24 01:14:48 PM  
Corvus: Wow I didn't know Colleges were part of the US government.

I guess then colleges can't have rules against plagiarism too because that would also infringe on 1st amendment rights.

So in college I can call my professor an asshole and not get any repercussion because it's my 1st amendment right?


No, this is actually a law: the "Tyler Clementi Higher Education Anti-Harassment Act," a bill introduced in Congress by Sen. Frank Lautenberg and Rep. Rush Holt, both New Jersey Democrats

Now going back to your example, imagine Congress trying to pass a law against plagiarism. You know, make plagiarism illegal -- effectively nullifying the entire point of the public domain. See the problem now?
 
2010-11-24 01:15:27 PM  
stlbluez: francisright: Nice headline, neconmitter. How would this possibly be considered unconstitutional? The freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to hate.

Well..
Unless you hate gays. And even then... ONLY if you hate them by protesting military funerals instead of actually protesting and verbally attacking the gays.
/amirite ?


WBC had been protesting the funerals of gay/gay friendly people long before they figured out that military funeral pickets pisses more people off.

So no, you are not right.
 
2010-11-24 01:16:05 PM  
Don't Tase me bro.
 
2010-11-24 01:16:40 PM  
Isn't this a just a re-packaging of "politically correct"? I think I can live without it.
 
2010-11-24 01:21:12 PM  
minoridiot: Isn't this a just a re-packaging of "politically correct"? I think I can live without it.

This, more or less. The First Amendment doesn't shield people from prosecution if they commit crimes with their speech; it only says that speech itself cannot be made a crime. This is why you can't be prosecuted for shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater if there really is a fire; the crime is causing a panic, and in this case you aren't doing that.

Bullying needs to be recognized as criminal harrassment. Speech alone, on the other hand, should not.
 
2010-11-24 01:21:26 PM  
francisright: Nice headline, neconmitter. How would this possibly be considered unconstitutional? The freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to hate.

Freedom of speech does mean the freedom to hate. It is how you act on that hatred beyond speech that then it becomes a concern. This is the United States not Europe we should not be policing and punishing thought.

Freedom of speech means you do not have a right to not be offended. You cannot have free speech without people getting offended. One person's hate speech is another's freedom of expression.

A crucifix in a glass of urine may be art to some people but a form of hate speech to others. (either way it should not be supported with tax dollars)



I am a conservative and a veteran. I am offended by flag burning, but I believe you have a right to burn the US flag. People are not burning the flag out of love but hatred. I extend that same right to cross burning or those who burn a US solider in effigy

4.bp.blogspot.com



It all goes back to:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Evelyn Beatrice Hall


What hate speech might look like:

www.patriotwatch.com


www.patsfans.com
 
2010-11-24 01:24:29 PM  
francisright: Nice headline, neconmitter. How would this possibly be considered unconstitutional? The freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to hate.

Correct. That's covered by association, and in some cases by religion and conscience (though this last only applies in a broader context than the Constitution). People must never be punished for simple belief: that way lies dystopia.
 
2010-11-24 01:25:30 PM  
what_now: Dr Dreidel: This proposed law is garbage, and anyone who supports it needs to take a college-level Constitutional Law class.

The proposed law is unnecessary because we already have laws in place, yes. But it sure as hell isn't "unconstitutional" for Congress to pass a useless law because public opinion is tuned into a particular issue for a few months.


It would be unconstitutional for Congress to pass a law making it illegal for college students to speak in a particular manner toward one another.

My understanding of the First is that you can't be arrested merely for saying something ("Fire" in a crowded room notwithstanding) - it has to rise to the level of preventing someone from getting somewhere (e.g. blocking their path to get to the front door) or making a threat. Both of those are illegal anyway.

So what would a bullying statute add? Protecting gay people from us evil straights? Making it a criminal offense to call someone the same name more than 4 times in a week? Explain to me how this law both squares with Free Speech/Expression (again, above and beyond existing harassment or stalking statutes) and actually adds something to the Federal code beyond existing law.
 
2010-11-24 01:26:44 PM  
I heard we're not allowed to scream FIRE in a movie theater. Why do they keep infringing on our 1st Amendment rights??!!
 
2010-11-24 01:27:01 PM  
francisright: Nice headline, neconmitter. How would this possibly be considered unconstitutional? The freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to hate.

not_sure_if_serious.jpg
 
2010-11-24 01:28:31 PM  
GoldSpider: francisright: Nice headline, neconmitter. How would this possibly be considered unconstitutional? The freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to hate.

not_sure_if_serious.jpg


He can't be serious. He can't be that stupid.
 
2010-11-24 01:29:34 PM  
OMG UR SUCH A STATIST U DIK
 
2010-11-24 01:31:39 PM  
Dr Dreidel: what_now: Dr Dreidel: This proposed law is garbage, and anyone who supports it needs to take a college-level Constitutional Law class.

The proposed law is unnecessary because we already have laws in place, yes. But it sure as hell isn't "unconstitutional" for Congress to pass a useless law because public opinion is tuned into a particular issue for a few months.

It would be unconstitutional for Congress to pass a law making it illegal for college students to speak in a particular manner toward one another.

My understanding of the First is that you can't be arrested merely for saying something ("Fire" in a crowded room notwithstanding) - it has to rise to the level of preventing someone from getting somewhere (e.g. blocking their path to get to the front door) or making a threat. Both of those are illegal anyway.

So what would a bullying statute add? Protecting gay people from us evil straights? Making it a criminal offense to call someone the same name more than 4 times in a week? Explain to me how this law both squares with Free Speech/Expression (again, above and beyond existing harassment or stalking statutes) and actually adds something to the Federal code beyond existing law.


An equally disturbing aspect is that it would turn each institution of higher learning into the federal gov't's private (thought)police force. If University Codes of Conduct are government mandated, any penalty enacted by the University is basically equivalent to a court order that can't be appealed.
 
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