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(CNN)   America offers Israel some shiny new jets and missiles if they'll stop building on occupied land for 90 days. Mazel Tov   (cnn.com) divider line 213
    More: Obvious, United Nations Security Council, Israeli-Palestinian, u.s. administration, Palestinian Authority, settlement construction, Benjamin Netanyahu, East Jerusalem, peace talks  
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1054 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Nov 2010 at 2:47 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-11-14 09:45:43 AM
cameroncrazy1984: bostonguy: cameroncrazy1984: Dubai Vol: And as you all seem to have missed it, I'll say it again:

In 1967, the peaceful Arabs were just sitting around minding their own business when Israel attacked them for no reason, right?

And in 1939 the peaceful Germans were just sitting around minding their own business when Poland attacked them for no reason, right?

Why can farking Poland get over it but Israel can't?

Israel HAS gotten over it -- with Egypt and Jordan. But it cannot "get over it" with the other countries that still, at least officially, want to destroy the country.

Which countries would those be?


Syria, Lebanon, and (I think) Iraq are still officially at war with Israel although there is currently no fighting. Saudi Arabia does not recognize Israel. Iran, well, you know.
 
2010-11-14 09:48:55 AM
wait I know what will fix this.
img241.imageshack.us
Casinos for popular tribes
img716.imageshack.us
a football team named after them
4.bp.blogspot.com
putting a stop to littering
img602.imageshack.us
a huge monument built on what they consider sacred ground and a gift shop for tourists.

wait what.....
 
2010-11-14 09:49:14 AM
Dubai Vol: mrexcess: Dubai Vol
In 1967, the peaceful Arabs were just sitting around minding their own business when Israel attacked them for no reason, right?

I don't understand your argument, .

That's no surprise.

I'll make it simple for you: if you start a war and lose territory, tough shiat.


I agree, though it's just a tad more complicated.

Jordan attacked Israel. Israel fought back, won, and took part of Jordan (the West Bank) as a defensive barrier against future attacks. That part of Jordan happened to contain a group of people who now self-identify as Palestinians (even though most used to have Jordanian citizenship before that country revoked it). Jordan no longer wants the land back, so Israel is stuck governing that group of people. And now we are at an impasse.
 
2010-11-14 09:50:58 AM
Pop quiz:

What is your position on Abu Musa and the Greater and Lesser Tunbs?
 
2010-11-14 09:51:05 AM
zedster: Asking Israel to give up Jerusalem is like asking the Muslims to give up Mecca. It is our most holy city, not just a holy city, to us it's the holy city

Maybe someday you'll understand that many of us don't care that your bronze age superstition declares Jerusalem holy and the land or Palestine to be yours for all eternity. If you want to live with unending war against and oppression of the locals who don't happen to follow your particular brand of irrationality don't expect the rest of the world to simply say ok and ignore your actions.

Honestly it's getting to the point that I think Jerusalem should be razed to the ground and the earth salted. The ground has clearly gone sour.
 
2010-11-14 09:51:49 AM
I'm trying to understand the level of Jew Pity in the mid 40s necessary for the UN to carve a country for Arab/Islamic blood enemies out of the territory of the least flexible people on the planet.

"Yes. This is good. Here we will have peace. Here we will ..."

while (TRUE)
*BLAMMO*
wend

Here's a country. Founded by pity. Eternal unrest is their legacy. Renunciation of common sense dictating every political decision. And they demand (demand!) still more territory of the least flexible people on the planet because 2000 years ago, their great*75 grandparents lived there and because they have a book written 2400 years ago that says that they have a right to it.

It makes the English prick in Eddie Izzard's "Do you have a flag?" routine seem like Socrates in comparison.

OK, class. Prove that we're not already dead and in Hell.

Failing that, defend anyone who claims they've got a book with the Eternal Verities written in it.
 
2010-11-14 09:52:12 AM
bostonguy: it's just a tad more complicated.

Of course, but when you are working with the simpleminded, it's best to keep things simple.
 
2010-11-14 09:54:45 AM
bostonguy: cameroncrazy1984: bostonguy: cameroncrazy1984: Dubai Vol: And as you all seem to have missed it, I'll say it again:

In 1967, the peaceful Arabs were just sitting around minding their own business when Israel attacked them for no reason, right?

And in 1939 the peaceful Germans were just sitting around minding their own business when Poland attacked them for no reason, right?

Why can farking Poland get over it but Israel can't?

Israel HAS gotten over it -- with Egypt and Jordan. But it cannot "get over it" with the other countries that still, at least officially, want to destroy the country.

Which countries would those be?

Syria, Lebanon, and (I think) Iraq are still officially at war with Israel although there is currently no fighting. Saudi Arabia does not recognize Israel. Iran, well, you know.


Which one of those is in Palestine? Or is Israel just playing by the US rules, "if you feel threatened by X, Y, or Z, invade M."
 
2010-11-14 09:56:05 AM
cameroncrazy1984: Why can farking Poland get over it but Israel can't?

i guess it's cause all the germans who had been in poland before the war were killed or deported, rather than staying there, having 10 kids a piece who were raised to become suicide bombers of ethnic poles.
 
2010-11-14 10:01:33 AM
Emposter: Which one of those is in Palestine?

Would you prefer that I mark yo down as stupid or dishonest? There is not and never has been a country called Palestine.
 
2010-11-14 10:03:52 AM
It's interesting to note how many FarkLibsTM are also antisemites.
 
2010-11-14 10:04:20 AM
proteus_b: meanwhile, the united states refuses to return california and texas to mexico, puerto rico to spain (or even to let them vote), hawaii to independent rule, and the rest of the country to various native groups.

Ah yes, because everyone in the United States just loves what we did to the native americans and does not at all think its a black mark on our history.

If Israel is exactly like the US in its wars against the Native American tribes then that is a strong argument for not conducting any business with Israel.

wolvernova: How long until they sell the advanced technology to China and render our next-gen capabilities and the billions that went into them worthless? We have some really terrible allies in this world.

6 Months for them to sell it to China, then after 4 years China will have adopted it, 6 months from then China will start selling it to Iran, and in exactly 5 years from the date at which Israel got the new jet, they'll whine to us that Iran has it now, and they want a better one.
 
2010-11-14 10:07:20 AM
Dubai Vol: Would you prefer that I mark yo down as stupid or dishonest? There is not and never has been a country called Palestine.

Palestine is specifically referred to in the same book that modern day Israelis use to justify their occupation of the land that historically bore that name. Would you be happier if we started referring to it as Judea or Canaan?
 
2010-11-14 10:07:25 AM
myspamhere: LavenderWolf:
Just imagine what they'd all do if they gave up their ridiculous belief systems.

Says the atheist smugly.


Yes.

But really. Imagine if they stopped believing in their religion and just appreciated it as a part of their history. I have a hard time believing there'd still be violence over this crap if it weren't for shiat disturbers saying "The jews must die!" and "Islam is EEEEEVIL"
 
2010-11-14 10:07:35 AM
Dubai Vol: Emposter: Which one of those is in Palestine?

Would you prefer that I mark yo down as stupid or dishonest? There is not and never has been a country called Palestine.


You would be funny if you weren't so pathetic.
 
2010-11-14 10:08:25 AM
LavenderWolf: But really. Imagine if they stopped believing in their religion and just appreciated it as a part of their history. I have a hard time believing there'd still be violence over this crap if it weren't for shiat disturbers saying "The jews must die!" and "Islam is EEEEEVIL"

Nah. Then they'd simply substitute nationalism for religion and the fighting would continue.
 
2010-11-14 10:13:01 AM
Bocanegra: It's interesting to note how many FarkLibsTM are also antisemites.

If you can't make your argument without playing that card, you have no argument. Note that I haven't played it. Note also that I'm a dirty librul.

You, OTOH, played it, and nothing else, right out of the gate. Which helps explain why I have you farkied as a douche.
 
2010-11-14 10:14:17 AM
Aarontology: Nah. Then they'd simply substitute nationalism for religion and the fighting would continue.

Probably. So much blood has been spilled in the little corner of land called Palestine that it's in the ground water.
 
2010-11-14 10:14:43 AM
Emposter: Dubai Vol: Emposter: Which one of those is in Palestine?

Would you prefer that I mark yo down as stupid or dishonest? There is not and never has been a country called Palestine.

You would be funny if you weren't so pathetic.


Dishonest it is.
 
2010-11-14 10:16:28 AM
Aarontology: LavenderWolf: But really. Imagine if they stopped believing in their religion and just appreciated it as a part of their history. I have a hard time believing there'd still be violence over this crap if it weren't for shiat disturbers saying "The jews must die!" and "Islam is EEEEEVIL"

Nah. Then they'd simply substitute nationalism for religion and the fighting would continue.


Sadly, you're right. Religion clings to those folk for the same reason nationalism would.
 
2010-11-14 10:16:43 AM
A recent poll published showed that if Israel was to return to the 1967 borders, dismantle all settlements without exception, give all of East Jerusalem back to the PA and would create a link between Judea, Samaria and Gaza, 85% of the PA Arabs would refuse the deal.

Why? Because for them to accept a peace deal, Israel also has to give Israeli citizenship to literally 10 million of Arabs who live in refugee camps.

Unless there is a right of return, nearly 9 out of 10 PA Arabs say they will not accept such a deal (a deal that would demographically destroy Israel)

Not only that, but another poll was recently published which showed that almost 50% of PA Arabs believed that even if they get a State with what they want, rocket attacks on Israel should not stop.

... so what's the incentive for us to make peace?

They clearly do not want peace unless Israel is destroyed, and even if they end up having their state, they still believe in continuing terrorist attacks against Israel.

I mean, seriously, why should we give them a State and make it easier for them to kill Israelis?
 
2010-11-14 10:16:46 AM
Dubai Vol: Emposter: Dubai Vol: Emposter: Which one of those is in Palestine?

Would you prefer that I mark yo down as stupid or dishonest? There is not and never has been a country called Palestine.

You would be funny if you weren't so pathetic.

Dishonest it is.


I'm surprised that you can even see your monitor through the hypocrisy that must be filling your mom's basement.
 
2010-11-14 10:20:02 AM
equilibrium: Dubai Vol: Would you prefer that I mark yo down as stupid or dishonest? There is not and never has been a country called Palestine.

Palestine is specifically referred to in the same book that modern day Israelis use to justify their occupation of the land that historically bore that name. Would you be happier if we started referring to it as Judea or Canaan?


הפליסטינים (the Philistines) were not the ancestors of the Palestinians of today. They came from across the Mediterranean Sea, most likely from southeastern Europe around Greece. The word "Palestine" was first used by ancient Rome to refer to the provincial region in general. (I don't remember why at the moment.)

Interesting fact: Jews who were born and/or lived in the region were known as "Palestinians" many decades before a specific segment of the Arab population adopted the term.
 
2010-11-14 10:23:23 AM
SoothinglyDeranged: bigpeeler: Chariset: But- but- but-- Chosen People! God's Annointed!

Yeah, about that. If they really are God's people, then why doesn't he take care of them instead of us?

Yeah, this was always my thing. They say they're "his" people, but "he" doesn't seem to be doing shiat for them. Sounds like somebody refuses to accept the break-up.


What do you mean? God is making the US Israel's biatch. Don't you know divine providence when you see it?
 
2010-11-14 10:23:40 AM
fark Israel.
 
2010-11-14 10:23:44 AM
Really, who doesn't like an army of occupation?

Every summer tourist town and every ski town celebrates the occupying of tourists and the leaving of same.


They still fly this flag to celebrate occupation after 150 years

i258.photobucket.com

What if it flew over the West Bank and Gaza, over Iraq, and a hundred other places where there are real estate agents with guns or is that illegal immigrants?

I was never comfortable with that flag, but its use now appears to be more about occupation than bigotry.
 
2010-11-14 10:24:17 AM
equilibrium: Probably. So much blood has been spilled in the little corner of land called Palestine that it's in the ground water.

A few more decades, and that's all the ground water will be.


LavenderWolf: Sadly, you're right. Religion clings to those folk for the same reason nationalism would.

There's already a hybrid going on for both sides, since it's not simply about Jews/Muslims but also Israel and Palestine.

It really is a sucky situation all around.
 
2010-11-14 10:25:02 AM
Dubai Vol: Dishonest it is.

Are you honestly claiming that the little corner of dirt we now call Israel hasn't been referred to as Palestine for the last 2500 years? Or is your argument that they never had a flag so it didn't count?

Farking Heroditus referred to it a Palestine.

Oh wait, I'm getting an update... This just in, there was never a country called the Roman Empire. Sources say they lacked a flag and UN approval so no such entity ever existed.
 
2010-11-14 10:25:46 AM
bostonguy: Interesting fact: Jews who were born and/or lived in the region were known as "Palestinians" many decades before a specific segment of the Arab population adopted the term.

Before 1948, you had 'Palestinian' groups all over US Campuses. You had the Palestine Post, Palestine Airways, a Palestinian Holy book.

After 1948, the 'Palestinian groups' over the US campus became known as Zionist groups. After 1948, the Palestine Post became the Jerusalem Post. Palestine Airways? El Al. Palestinian Talmud? Well it's still known as that, but most commonly called the Jerusalem Talmud.
 
2010-11-14 10:28:14 AM
If Israel launched a full-scale invasion of the US homeland, at least half our politicians would vote against mobilizing our armed forces. The other half would be run out of town as anti-semites
 
2010-11-14 10:33:27 AM
Emposter: Dubai Vol: Emposter: Dubai Vol: Emposter: Which one of those is in Palestine?

Would you prefer that I mark yo down as stupid or dishonest? There is not and never has been a country called Palestine.

You would be funny if you weren't so pathetic.

Dishonest it is.

I'm surprised that you can even see your monitor through the hypocrisy that must be filling your mom's basement.


Hey, I've expressed my views as honestly as I can. You're the one playing stupid semantic games trying to score points. Go back and read my posts: I had similar ideas to you when I lived in the US. A dozen years in Arab countries changed my mind.

img.photobucket.comimg.photobucket.comimg.photobucket.com
 
2010-11-14 10:33:42 AM
BitwiseShift: Really, who doesn't like an army of occupation?

Every summer tourist town and every ski town celebrates the occupying of tourists and the leaving of same.

They still fly this flag to celebrate occupation after 150 years

What if it flew over the West Bank and Gaza, over Iraq, and a hundred other places where there are real estate agents with guns or is that illegal immigrants?

I was never comfortable with that flag, but its use now appears to be more about occupation than bigotry.


One issue at a time
 
2010-11-14 10:34:32 AM
equilibrium: Dubai Vol: Dishonest it is.

Are you honestly claiming that the little corner of dirt we now call Israel hasn't been referred to as Palestine for the last 2500 years? Or is your argument that they never had a flag so it didn't count?

Farking Heroditus referred to it a Palestine.

Oh wait, I'm getting an update... This just in, there was never a country called the Roman Empire. Sources say they lacked a flag and UN approval so no such entity ever existed.


You're confusing "region" with "country" (or some other sovereign entity). Here is a short list of who controlled the region after the destruction of Judea:

Roman Empire
Islamic Empire
Crusader Kingdoms
Ottoman Empire
Great Britain

And between these rulers, the region of Palestine was localized and under the control of various local Arab leaders, tribes, and religious leaders. If you had told an Arab in Gaza City that he and someone else in Ramallah were citizens or residents of the same, independent, political entity known as Palestine, they would have laughed.

Another note: Under the Ottoman Empire, the municipal headquarters for the administration of the region of Palestine was Damascus, not Jerusalem or anywhere else.
 
2010-11-14 10:35:34 AM
bostonguy: (the Philistines) were not the ancestors of the Palestinians of today. They came from across the Mediterranean Sea, most likely from southeastern Europe around Greece. The word "Palestine" was first used by ancient Rome to refer to the provincial region in general. (I don't remember why at the moment.)

Because "Palestine" was the romanization of the name the farking locals used for the region and how it was referred to by the historian Heroditus.

It was called Palestine before the Hebrews did their little genocide number on the Phillistines and it was called Palestine afterwards. True, the word was written in different alphabets and pronounced with whatever local accent was doing the documentation but for the last 2500 years the most common name for that particular area has been "Palestine".
 
2010-11-14 10:41:12 AM
equilibrium: It was called Palestine before the Hebrews did their little genocide number on the Phillistines and it was called Palestine afterwards. True, the word was written in different alphabets and pronounced with whatever local accent was doing the documentation but for the last 2500 years the most common name for that particular area has been "Palestine".

And you are still missing the goddamn point, farkwit: dickhead made a stupid with "which one of those countries is Palestine?" That's the farking point, dumbass. You missed it. Asswipe was trying to claim that Israel had no right to be at war with this "Palestine" because there's no such country, in a lovely piece of circular illogic. You're both retarded. And assholes. fark you.
 
2010-11-14 10:41:52 AM
bostonguy: You're confusing "region" with "country" (or some other sovereign entity). Here is a short list of who controlled the region after the destruction of Judea:

I'm being sarcastic. The modern nation-state is a relatively recent construct. I know your list and for the most part they referred to the region as "Palestine".

So to say that there are no such thing as "Palestinians" because there was never a country called "Palestine" if farking ridiculous because through most of recorded history if you put your finger on a farking map the name under it was some variant of "Palestine" and if you asked who lived there you got "Palestinians" unless you happened to choose the Judea time frame in which case you got "Hebrews" or the last 60 years when you'd get varying results.
 
2010-11-14 10:41:57 AM
GaryPDX: Okay, everyone who wants the Muslims to win line up to the left. Everyone who doesn't line up to the right.

I want Nixon to win. Where do I line up?
 
2010-11-14 10:42:41 AM
Gunny Highway: BitwiseShift: Really, who doesn't like an army of occupation?

... One issue at a time


But wait, there more!
 
2010-11-14 10:46:49 AM
Dubai Vol
That's no surprise.

No, and neither is it a surprise that you won't help me understand your argument by answering my question.

The Palestinian civilian population did not start any war with Israel, yet they are the ones losing land. Thus your second argument seems not to bear any relevance to the discussion about activities taking place today. If anything, the neverending conquest of more and more Palestinian land by Israel could very reasonably be viewed as the one constant, on-going act of war throughout the past several decades. Even when the rockets and guns are silent, the sound of construction continues.

In addition, it's also of course an assertion of a belief that's in direct contravention to long-standing American foreign policy as well as rather important and highly regarded international law: the idea that warfare no longer allows you to capture enemy territory permanently as your own, regardless of whose historical narrative triumphs.

But I'm guessing you already knew that and just don't care, out of some sense that international law can be safely disregarded when it does not mesh with the national agenda you wish to advance. To that I can only respond with the cautionary tale of the history that led to it's development and implementation.

The UN may be a flawed institution often deserving of criticism, but that is a very different thing than undermining the central principles of international justice and law that were so hard fought, and to so much gain, by so many men and women not very long ago at all.
 
2010-11-14 10:47:08 AM
Dubai Vol: equilibrium: It was called Palestine before the Hebrews did their little genocide number on the Phillistines and it was called Palestine afterwards. True, the word was written in different alphabets and pronounced with whatever local accent was doing the documentation but for the last 2500 years the most common name for that particular area has been "Palestine".

And you are still missing the goddamn point, farkwit: dickhead made a stupid with "which one of those countries is Palestine?" That's the farking point, dumbass. You missed it. Asswipe was trying to claim that Israel had no right to be at war with this "Palestine" because there's no such country, in a lovely piece of circular illogic. You're both retarded. And assholes. fark you.


that's some mighty fine ass referencing there Lou!
 
2010-11-14 10:47:35 AM
ThematicDevice: wolvernova: How long until they sell the advanced technology to China and render our next-gen capabilities and the billions that went into them worthless? We have some really terrible allies in this world.

6 Months for them to sell it to China, then after 4 years China will have adopted it, 6 months from then China will start selling it to Iran, and in exactly 5 years from the date at which Israel got the new jet, they'll whine to us that Iran has it now, and they want a better one.


Well said and sadly this is the truth. Israel is a horrible ally. At least China does what they do without the guile to pretend they are our closest allies.
 
2010-11-14 10:48:18 AM
mrexcess: The Palestinian civilian population did not start any war with Israel

Except when, you know, they refused the Partition Plan in 1947, formed militias and declared war.
 
2010-11-14 10:48:36 AM
Dubai Vol: And you are still missing the goddamn point, farkwit: dickhead made a stupid with "which one of those countries is Palestine?" That's the farking point, dumbass. You missed it. Asswipe was trying to claim that Israel had no right to be at war with this "Palestine" because there's no such country, in a lovely piece of circular illogic. You're both retarded. And assholes. fark you.

Hey you know what? You can suck my cock.

The "no such country as Palestine" is a bullshiat semantic move used to justify whatever flavor of shiat Israel decides to dump on the Palestinians this week.

He was an idiotic asshole and you jumped right in with him with that "never been a country called Palestine" bullshiat.

Like it or not, there is now a group of people called Palestinians and they live in a region that has historically been called Palestine. Arguments about whether they exist as a legally recognized entity is pointless since it ignores the fact that they exist.
 
2010-11-14 10:49:24 AM
Tatsuma
Except when, you know, they refused the Partition Plan in 1947, formed militias and declared war.

So you're really positing that a war between the Palestinian civilian population and Israel has been on-going since 1947?

And again, would that be a justification for territorial annexation anyway? Not by any reasonable interpretation of the law.
 
2010-11-14 10:51:51 AM
equilibrium: Dubai Vol: And you are still missing the goddamn point, farkwit: dickhead made a stupid with "which one of those countries is Palestine?" That's the farking point, dumbass. You missed it. Asswipe was trying to claim that Israel had no right to be at war with this "Palestine" because there's no such country, in a lovely piece of circular illogic. You're both retarded. And assholes. fark you.

Hey you know what? You can suck my cock.

The "no such country as Palestine" is a bullshiat semantic move used to justify whatever flavor of shiat Israel decides to dump on the Palestinians this week.

He was an idiotic asshole and you jumped right in with him with that "never been a country called Palestine" bullshiat.

Like it or not, there is now a group of people called Palestinians and they live in a region that has historically been called Palestine. Arguments about whether they exist as a legally recognized entity is pointless since it ignores the fact that they exist.


It is not a semantic move. It is a fact used to counter the PR move -- and admittedly a genius one -- by the Arabs in the territories to begin referring to themselves specifically as "Palestinians" after 1948 and 1967 to spread the false idea that they were the indigenous residents of Palestine who were kicked out by the evil, colonist invaders.
 
2010-11-14 10:52:23 AM
Tatsuma: I think it's frustrating and somewhat dishonest that you picked perhaps one of the least meaty parts of my lengthy write-up to respond to solely, when so many other parts of it would have been much more important and ripe for you to address. Here's one in particular I'd like to know your thoughts on, if I can be self-referential for a second:

If anything, the neverending conquest of more and more Palestinian land by Israel could very reasonably be viewed as the one constant, on-going act of war throughout the past several decades. Even when the rockets and guns are silent, the sound of construction continues.
 
2010-11-14 10:56:16 AM
Threads like these are a mini version of why nothing gets done over there. Everyone has a different story, interpretation, and nobody is willing to give an inch. Not saying it is wrong, just interesting
 
2010-11-14 10:59:31 AM
Dubai Vol: Welcome to the real world, sunshine. Who did your ancestors steal the land where you live from?

Do arctic foxes and some birds count?
 
2010-11-14 11:00:56 AM
Gunny Highway
Threads like these are a mini version of why nothing gets done over there.

Eh... disagree. Nothing gets done there because the people who benefit from nothing getting done have more power than the people who are trying to achieve peace.
 
2010-11-14 11:03:17 AM
Halli
Do arctic foxes and some birds count?

+1

Honestly... when the best you can do is to compare your advocated cause to the slaughter of the Native Americans (or Japanese internment), maybe it's time to check what you're advocating?!
 
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