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(The New York Times)   Like so many things, the myth that Vietnam Veterans were mistreated comes from the Nixon Whitehouse as a way to discredit war opponents   (nytimes.com) divider line 316
    More: Sad, discredits  
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9996 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Nov 2010 at 3:04 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-11-11 10:40:42 PM  
dbaggins: baronvonzipper has given the only first-hand account I have EVER heard of spit on soldiers. Right here, in a Fark forum.

I have heard it from multiple veterans, both friends and family. None are Farkers, which is unsurprising given their ages.

baronvonzipper, I too am sorry that happened to you.
 
2010-11-11 10:46:31 PM  
mama's_tasty_foods, my feeling on it is this:

I don't doubt soldiers catch crap returning home. I don't doubt they just catch it any time. I wouldn't be surprised there was more of it during Vietnam. It's likely some of the crappers were hippie college students.

Yet I also feel this refrain has attained life as a politicized echo chamber with a lot of BS 'disrespectiful hippie' anecdotes that might even be from your/my father/uncle/cousin/whatever, making a twisted partisan out of a simple truth: there's always a dick.

(With regards to the involvement of the one that went by Nixon, I have no idea.)
 
2010-11-11 11:11:39 PM  
Whew, glad we cleared that up! Now let's pick up the pace here, we still have some 5000 years of recorded history we need to politically correct.
 
2010-11-11 11:12:52 PM  
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2010-11-11 11:19:54 PM  
www.democraticunderground.com
 
2010-11-11 11:20:58 PM  
Holy moley, CougarJeff! I thought I had posted twice somehow!
 
2010-11-11 11:34:41 PM  
Considering the Republican national convention is a televised event, with a good chance that your ugly mug will end up in newspapers, magazines, and online, you'd think she would have coughed up the cash for a fresh set of non yellowed dentures beforehand.
 
2010-11-11 11:41:36 PM  
Stanfan114: mama's_tasty_foods: Stanfan114: treesloth: Stanfan114: All anecdotal without a shred of proof.

And yet, as the strongest evidence available, the weight of fact supports their eyewitness statements.

What facts? More anecdotal evidence? Or do you have film of it happening? Or a photograph. One photo.

Stanfan,

I'm sorry to say the people who attacked the sailors and went to jail for it didn't film themselves. There are other firsthand accounts recounted as well.

For you to say there is "not a shred of proof" however, is absolutely false. I've come to believe you are not engaging in this discussion in good faith.

I am asking you, in good faith, to bring me some proof.

According to the stories, vets were spit on in airports coming off the plane. There is a LOT of footage of soldiers coming home from Vietnam. Show me something.

It was a politically motivated propaganda story to rile up hate for supposed left wing instigators who are ungrateful for the soldier's service, cemented in popular media like Rambo and Forrest Gump and The Deer Hunter. Until I see differently.


I think it was programed into their heads while they were there. It probably happened once, and was reported on, and probably shown over and over to them in Stars & Stripes.
My dad, uncle (who came back addicted to heroin), and other uncle (who became a hippie after he got back) and every other Vietnam vet I know will tell you vets were spit on, but it didn't happen to them.
I remember when my dad came home from Vietnam. I remember those times well. Naked people and protests and war, it was everywhere.
I always believed it happened, but I have never seen any video or pictures of hippies spitting on any vets either.
 
2010-11-11 11:51:32 PM  
Stanfan114: ritalinchild 54: Stanfan114: How come with the millions of photos taken during and after Vietnam, the reels of news footage of soldiers coming home, there is not one single photograph showing a soldier being spat on?

It seems you can't even ask the question. That's some powerful propaganda.

^^^^^^

Show me the proof that anyone was spit on in an airport.

/agreeing with you for personal reasons

Photos apparently are not forthcoming. Because they don't exist.


Show me photos of a women being actively raped please?
 
2010-11-11 11:53:52 PM  
Stanfan114: ritalinchild 54: Stanfan114: How come with the millions of photos taken during and after Vietnam, the reels of news footage of soldiers coming home, there is not one single photograph showing a soldier being spat on?

It seems you can't even ask the question. That's some powerful propaganda.

^^^^^^

Show me the proof that anyone was spit on in an airport.

/agreeing with you for personal reasons

Photos apparently are not forthcoming. Because they don't exist.


Can you show me an actual photo of someone slipping someone a ruhepnal?

Come on, I know these things don't exist either!

/you're a dumbass
 
2010-11-11 11:56:25 PM  
Stanfan114: mama's_tasty_foods: Stanfan114: treesloth: Stanfan114: All anecdotal without a shred of proof.

And yet, as the strongest evidence available, the weight of fact supports their eyewitness statements.

What facts? More anecdotal evidence? Or do you have film of it happening? Or a photograph. One photo.

Stanfan,

I'm sorry to say the people who attacked the sailors and went to jail for it didn't film themselves. There are other firsthand accounts recounted as well.

For you to say there is "not a shred of proof" however, is absolutely false. I've come to believe you are not engaging in this discussion in good faith.

I am asking you, in good faith, to bring me some proof.

According to the stories, vets were spit on in airports coming off the plane. There is a LOT of footage of soldiers coming home from Vietnam. Show me something.

It was a politically motivated propaganda story to rile up hate for supposed left wing instigators who are ungrateful for the soldier's service, cemented in popular media like Rambo and Forrest Gump and The Deer Hunter. Until I see differently.


Here is one from a more recent time.

http://patdollard.com/2008/07/iraq-war-vet-spitter-identified-with-video/
 
2010-11-12 12:01:57 AM  
Stanfan114: mama's_tasty_foods: Stanfan114: treesloth: Stanfan114:

All I am asking you, in good faith, to bring me some proof.

It was a politically motivated propaganda story to rile up hate for supposed left wing instigators who are ungrateful for the soldier's service, cemented in popular media like Rambo and Forrest Gump and The Deer Hunter.
Until I see differently.


Where is your proof for your statement? Works both ways, eh?
 
2010-11-12 12:05:25 AM  
Johnny_Whistle:
Video please, or it didn't happen.

/just trying to play by their rules




Quoted for truth
 
2010-11-12 12:06:17 AM  
imprimere: Stanfan114: ritalinchild 54: Stanfan114: How come with the millions of photos taken during and after Vietnam, the reels of news footage of soldiers coming home, there is not one single photograph showing a soldier being spat on?

It seems you can't even ask the question. That's some powerful propaganda.

^^^^^^

Show me the proof that anyone was spit on in an airport.

/agreeing with you for personal reasons

Photos apparently are not forthcoming. Because they don't exist.

Can you show me an actual photo of someone slipping someone a ruhepnal?

Come on, I know these things don't exist either!

/you're a dumbass


That's a horrible example because of drug tests (and there are surveillance videos in clubs of people slipping mickies into drinks). I'm trying to come up with an actual intelligent comparison, but I can't think of any.

It just doesn't make any sense that there aren't any pictures or videos if it was as widespread as the younger generation is made to believe. I'm not saying people are lying, but time has a way of effecting one's memory.
 
2010-11-12 12:07:48 AM  
The_Sponge: Elvis_Bogart: Horseshiat. I've spoken to many Vietnam vets including my dad who were treated terribly by the "peace-lovers" when they came back.

Sell that B.S. someplace else.


Ditto.

CSB:

Back in high school I volunteered at an adult day center. One guy (Ernie) told me a story about when he was in NYC shortly after he came back from Vietnam:

Some asshole called him a babykiller, so Ernie punched him in the face. Said asshole ran off to get a cop, and brought one back.

"Did you punch this guy?" said the cop.

"Yes," said Ernie. "And if anyone else calls me a babykiller, I'll do it again."

Then the cop told the jerk to get the f*ck out of there.


So Ernie rotated back to the world, but was wandering around NYC in his uniform days after discharge? You even seen a soldier who did that? Most of the guys flew home domestic, and ditched the uniforms leaving Germany or Manila or wherever. Sorry, but I think Ernie tells a pretty good story. Mostly because I've heard this EXACT same story, more than once. That poor hippie must have been punch in the nose once a day for about five years, in NYC, San Fran, etc.

No question, the guys who served in Vietnam got the shaft when they got home - vilified for fighting the 'bad' war by the anti war idiots (who couldn't work out that a solider is NOT the one who sets national policy), and marginalized and swept under the carpet by the pro-war contingent (for not walking away with a clear-cut victory), returned to a stalled economy and a society going through a major change in priorities and perspectives.

That being said, the quantity and intensity of the supposed hate fest veterans experienced upon return seems disproportionate to the historical record. I have no doubt that many, MANY guys rotated back to the world felt less than wonderful about the war, and hysterical hippies shouting in front of every camera they could that all their worst self doubts were in fact true made it all worst, and greatest disservice to those men. But I still suspect if the number of vets returning being actually physically assaulted upon return (and spitting and throwing things at some else certainly qualifies), there would be three things to verify all the stories.

- More stories in the news of the events occurring. It is almost impossible to locate a story of these events happening.
- More police reports of arresting protesters for attacking vets. The establishment at the time were very pro-soldier, and even more anti-hippie, and would have gladly taken the excuse to arrest some flower children if given the opportunity.
- A LOT more hippies telling the story from the other side ending with "...and THEN then baby killer broke my nose!"

/Father, two uncles all in the shiat, various tours b/w 1965-1973. Not one tells this story, nor does anyone they know do so. Anecdotal, yes...but so are yours.
 
2010-11-12 12:07:50 AM  
Elvis_Bogart: Horseshiat. I've spoken to many Vietnam vets including my dad who were treated terribly by the "peace-lovers" when they came back.

Sell that B.S. someplace else.


This. Didn't get spit on or denounced as a baby killer, since we stood down in Long Beach which is a Navy town, but the dislike from unwashed assholes lurking around on the streets was palatable. I did 6 years of reserve duty at a Vietnam tour and also attended CSULB. When I wore the uniform I got verbal static and grimaces from several lib arts teachers and a few of the lib arts students.
 
2010-11-12 12:11:49 AM  
Moopy Mac: imprimere: Stanfan114: ritalinchild 54: Stanfan114: How come with the millions of photos taken during and after Vietnam, the reels of news footage of soldiers coming home, there is not one single photograph showing a soldier being spat on?

It seems you can't even ask the question. That's some powerful propaganda.

^^^^^^

Show me the proof that anyone was spit on in an airport.

/agreeing with you for personal reasons

Photos apparently are not forthcoming. Because they don't exist.

Can you show me an actual photo of someone slipping someone a ruhepnal?

Come on, I know these things don't exist either!

/you're a dumbass

That's a horrible example because of drug tests (and there are surveillance videos in clubs of people slipping mickies into drinks). I'm trying to come up with an actual intelligent comparison, but I can't think of any.

It just doesn't make any sense that there aren't any pictures or videos if it was as widespread as the younger generation is made to believe. I'm not saying people are lying, but time has a way of effecting one's memory.


How long does it take to spit at someone? A second? Most of the anecdotal stories here don't include spitting perse, but to suggest that it didn't happen because you don't have a picture is naive at best.

Where are these surveillance videos you speak of? If you can't produce them, then they didn't happen. How many pictures do you have of people poisioning people? I've seen many shows perpetrate this myth as well.

Stick you head in the sand all you want. Where is the proof that this was a devious plan by Nixon's crew? Yet, you're swallowing that one on faith!
 
2010-11-12 12:20:27 AM  
gopher321 Hippies.Must.Die.
This hatred of "dirty hippies" is very dubious. What did hippies ever do to you? Did any of them ever try to kill you?
Hippies had a very valid reason for protesting the war back then. Their gov't wanted to kill them by sending them into a meat grinder in an Asian country.
In reference to TFA, however, I cannot defend attacking returning soldiers.
While it would serve a great purpose for Republicans to have no takers when they want to start another war, forcing the Republicans to fight their own damm wars, we should not take out our hatred of the war on those who fight for our country. We should embrace the soldiers and spit upon the Republican draft-dodgers who start wars for fun, as in Iraq/Vietnam. Don't spit on vets, spit on Dumbya/cheney/Rove/MCconnell.
 
2010-11-12 12:25:21 AM  
Injuneer: gopher321 Hippies.Must.Die.
This hatred of "dirty hippies" is very dubious. What did hippies ever do to you? Did any of them ever try to kill you?
Hippies had a very valid reason for protesting the war back then. Their gov't wanted to kill them by sending them into a meat grinder in an Asian country.
In reference to TFA, however, I cannot defend attacking returning soldiers.
While it would serve a great purpose for Republicans to have no takers when they want to start another war, forcing the Republicans to fight their own damm wars, we should not take out our hatred of the war on those who fight for our country. We should embrace the soldiers and spit upon the Republican draft-dodgers who start wars for fun, as in Iraq/Vietnam. Don't spit on vets, spit on Dumbya/cheney/Rove/MCconnell.


How does everyone get a Republican War out of this???

Again, WHO GOT US INTO THIS WAR!?!
 
2010-11-12 12:29:25 AM  
imprimere
Again, WHO GOT US INTO THIS WAR!?!

Rudyard Kipling.
 
2010-11-12 12:31:40 AM  
I've said it before and I'll say it again - US military love is a scary, creepy thing. Going around saying "thankyou for your service!" is just weird.

Anyone joining the army at the moment should think damned hard about the moral landscape, because it's more likely than not that any action you see is going to be a lot less than pure, moral or even in any way defensive.

It's much more likely to be a knee-jerk combination of fear and profiteering from some group of wealthy old men. Think very hard before you decide to kill or be killed for them. Think very hard indeed.

It seems that 'nam has taught us nothing because we still do it.
 
2010-11-12 12:38:35 AM  
Gothnet: I've said it before and I'll say it again - US military love is a scary, creepy thing. Going around saying "thankyou for your service!" is just weird.

Anyone joining the army at the moment should think damned hard about the moral landscape, because it's more likely than not that any action you see is going to be a lot less than pure, moral or even in any way defensive.

It's much more likely to be a knee-jerk combination of fear and profiteering from some group of wealthy old men. Think very hard before you decide to kill or be killed for them. Think very hard indeed.

It seems that 'nam has taught us nothing because we still do it.


There is a HUGE difference between the way you would like the world to work and how it actually works. Keep living in your Star Trek universe. The real people have to deal with reality.
 
2010-11-12 12:39:12 AM  
God, you lefties like to rewrite history. And don't give me that "reality has a liberal bias" horshiat either. It's was Veterans Day for God's sake!

/FTFM
 
2010-11-12 12:39:21 AM  
imprimere: Injuneer: gopher321 Hippies.Must.Die.
This hatred of "dirty hippies" is very dubious. What did hippies ever do to you? Did any of them ever try to kill you?
Hippies had a very valid reason for protesting the war back then. Their gov't wanted to kill them by sending them into a meat grinder in an Asian country.
In reference to TFA, however, I cannot defend attacking returning soldiers.
While it would serve a great purpose for Republicans to have no takers when they want to start another war, forcing the Republicans to fight their own damm wars, we should not take out our hatred of the war on those who fight for our country. We should embrace the soldiers and spit upon the Republican draft-dodgers who start wars for fun, as in Iraq/Vietnam. Don't spit on vets, spit on Dumbya/cheney/Rove/MCconnell.

How does everyone get a Republican War out of this???

Again, WHO GOT US INTO THIS WAR!?!


Eisenhower.
 
2010-11-12 12:39:22 AM  
Whole lot of couch potatoes here pretending to be Vietnam veterans.

Fact is there are ZERO first-hand reports from the time of returning soldiers being spat on in airports by hippies. NADA. Every single reference to this myth comes from long after the war.

Yet there are farktons of first-hand reports from the time of anti-war protesters being spat on by pro-war activists and National Guardsmen.

Yeah, maybe some soldier got spat on once - and maybe Jesus was real too. However the overwhelming majority of flying spit in that era came from the pro-war douchebags and landed on the peace activists.

FOAD, uniform-lickers. You don't get to play the victim when you are and always have been the victimisers.
 
2010-11-12 12:44:05 AM  
imprimere: Stanfan114: ritalinchild 54: Stanfan114: How come with the millions of photos taken during and after Vietnam, the reels of news footage of soldiers coming home, there is not one single photograph showing a soldier being spat on?

It seems you can't even ask the question. That's some powerful propaganda.

^^^^^^

Show me the proof that anyone was spit on in an airport.

/agreeing with you for personal reasons

Photos apparently are not forthcoming. Because they don't exist.

Show me photos of a women being actively raped please?


Actually there was an article the other day about a woman being gang raped in South Africa and the whole thing being caught on camera phone. No, I;'imprimere: Stanfan114: ritalinchild 54: Stanfan114: How come with the millions of photos taken during and after Vietnam, the reels of news footage of soldiers coming home, there is not one single photograph showing a soldier being spat on?

It seems you can't even ask the question. That's some powerful propaganda.

^^^^^^

Show me the proof that anyone was spit on in an airport.

/agreeing with you for personal reasons

Photos apparently are not forthcoming. Because they don't exist.

Show me photos of a women being actively raped please?


Link

Bottom of the page, you sick fark. (Do I even need to say NSFW?)
 
2010-11-12 12:44:16 AM  
The worst abuse I saw of Vietnam vets came from vets of previous wars.

Because of the media stigma of "freaked out" Vietnam vets, businesses were reluctant to hire them. Anyone remember the "Hire a Vet -- It pays" campaigns?

One of my first jobs was working for military funerals. The Korea and WWII vets would keep the Vietnam vets segregated in the AmVets/American Legion/VFW halls.

The older vets would say things like, "They lost the war because they smoked pot. We would never have gunned down villages like they did, we had honor...."

The last Vietnam vet we buried couldn't get a full contingent for a 21-gun salute. We had six of the seven, and finally put a rifle in the hands of a near-90-year-old WWI vet, who pretended to fire the weapon.

I never once saw an instance on the news of hippies standing in the airports to spit on veterans when they came back home, as the myth perpetuates.
 
2010-11-12 12:45:58 AM  
imprimere
How does everyone get a Republican War out of this???
Again, WHO GOT US INTO THIS WAR!?!

Yes, you are right, Vietnam was not started by Repugs.
BUT.. Nixon did kill the Paris Peace Talks in 1968 to ensure presidential victory for himself. So it bacame HIS war. And most wars since then have been started by Repug draft-dodgers.
 
2010-11-12 12:45:59 AM  
Repo Man: imprimere: Injuneer: gopher321 Hippies.Must.Die.
This hatred of "dirty hippies" is very dubious. What did hippies ever do to you? Did any of them ever try to kill you?
Hippies had a very valid reason for protesting the war back then. Their gov't wanted to kill them by sending them into a meat grinder in an Asian country.
In reference to TFA, however, I cannot defend attacking returning soldiers.
While it would serve a great purpose for Republicans to have no takers when they want to start another war, forcing the Republicans to fight their own damm wars, we should not take out our hatred of the war on those who fight for our country. We should embrace the soldiers and spit upon the Republican draft-dodgers who start wars for fun, as in Iraq/Vietnam. Don't spit on vets, spit on Dumbya/cheney/Rove/MCconnell.

How does everyone get a Republican War out of this???

Again, WHO GOT US INTO THIS WAR!?!

Eisenhower.


That's right... Eisenhower was president at the time, wasn't he? Oh, that's right, he was Congress then, wasn't he? You delusionists never want to own up to a damn thing, do you?
 
2010-11-12 12:50:53 AM  
eggrolls: imprimere: Stanfan114: ritalinchild 54: Stanfan114: How come with the millions of photos taken during and after Vietnam, the reels of news footage of soldiers coming home, there is not one single photograph showing a soldier being spat on?

It seems you can't even ask the question. That's some powerful propaganda.

^^^^^^

Show me the proof that anyone was spit on in an airport.

/agreeing with you for personal reasons

Photos apparently are not forthcoming. Because they don't exist.

Show me photos of a women being actively raped please?

Actually there was an article the other day about a woman being gang raped in South Africa and the whole thing being caught on camera phone. No, I;'imprimere: Stanfan114: ritalinchild 54: Stanfan114: How come with the millions of photos taken during and after Vietnam, the reels of news footage of soldiers coming home, there is not one single photograph showing a soldier being spat on?

It seems you can't even ask the question. That's some powerful propaganda.

^^^^^^

Show me the proof that anyone was spit on in an airport.

/agreeing with you for personal reasons

Photos apparently are not forthcoming. Because they don't exist.

Show me photos of a women being actively raped please?

Link

Bottom of the page, you sick fark. (Do I even need to say NSFW?)


Nice try. That's just a girl who claims to have been raped. I don't see proof, so it didn't happen.

/no dumbass, I don't actually want to see rape pictures, but my point is well-made by your failure.
 
2010-11-12 12:51:07 AM  
Here's a big ole FARK YOU to this thread.

Good night you dipshiats.
 
2010-11-12 12:53:49 AM  
Injuneer: imprimere
How does everyone get a Republican War out of this???
Again, WHO GOT US INTO THIS WAR!?!
Yes, you are right, Vietnam was not started by Repugs.
BUT.. Nixon did kill the Paris Peace Talks in 1968 to ensure presidential victory for himself. So it bacame HIS war. And most wars since then have been started by Repug draft-dodgers.


Wow, you apolgists will stop at nothing! It was his war!

So, Iraq was clearly Clinton's war. He did nothing in Mogadishu or Yemen!

How farking retarded are you?

/I apologize to actual mentally-retarded people for the previous comparison.
 
2010-11-12 01:09:15 AM  
dbaggins: the problem I have with the veterans being spit on issue is that everyone seems to know someone that has had this happen, but nobody steps up and says it happened to them.

Numerous reporters and investigators have gone looking for first hand accounts. To put something on the record.

there were bad attitudes, name calling, and prejudices, in both directions.


Specifically "being spit on" is a good point. I returned from a tour in the RVN 1970. No one spit on me. But the thing is, no one could do that to me today with impunity. They would not have gotten away with it in 1970 either. Your 'numerous reporters and investigators' should have a look at the police incident reports, crime news archives, and court records of the era if they want documentation.

The closest I came to a negative experience was at the University of Colorado, Boulder, where the Navy sent me for a post graduate degree in the seventies. A girl in the young adults group at my church in Boulder had been sparking me. We got to know each other a little bit. She knew I was in the Navy, however she flat did not believe me when I told her I had been in Vietnam. When she realized I was truthful, there arose some disconsonance in our relationship. Not to worry, there was music made with other nice young women. Young adult church group college women for the win.

The one young lady was clearly brainwashed, thinking any Vietnam vet was damaged in some way. It didn't bother me in the least. I felt like it was her loss. That was the extent of my negative return experience. There never was any welcome, but I didn't give a shiat. I was in the Navy for the adventure, excitement, and experiences. Not for some insipid thank you ritual.

It has only been within the last ten years that people locally have gone out of their way to foster a positive experience for Vietnam era vets. Which I appreciate. But I value most that both of my adult sons give me a thank you every Veterans Day. That is the berries and sufficient recognition for me.
 
2010-11-12 01:23:53 AM  
SnakeMittens: dbaggins: the problem I have with the veterans being spit on issue is that everyone seems to know someone that has had this happen, but nobody steps up and says it happened to them.

Numerous reporters and investigators have gone looking for first hand accounts. To put something on the record.

there were bad attitudes, name calling, and prejudices, in both directions.

Specifically "being spit on" is a good point. I returned from a tour in the RVN 1970. No one spit on me. But the thing is, no one could do that to me today with impunity. They would not have gotten away with it in 1970 either. Your 'numerous reporters and investigators' should have a look at the police incident reports, crime news archives, and court records of the era if they want documentation.

The closest I came to a negative experience was at the University of Colorado, Boulder, where the Navy sent me for a post graduate degree in the seventies. A girl in the young adults group at my church in Boulder had been sparking me. We got to know each other a little bit. She knew I was in the Navy, however she flat did not believe me when I told her I had been in Vietnam. When she realized I was truthful, there arose some disconsonance in our relationship. Not to worry, there was music made with other nice young women. Young adult church group college women for the win.

The one young lady was clearly brainwashed, thinking any Vietnam vet was damaged in some way. It didn't bother me in the least. I felt like it was her loss. That was the extent of my negative return experience. There never was any welcome, but I didn't give a shiat. I was in the Navy for the adventure, excitement, and experiences. Not for some insipid thank you ritual.

It has only been within the last ten years that people locally have gone out of their way to foster a positive experience for Vietnam era vets. Which I appreciate. But I value most that both of my adult sons give me a thank you every Veterans Day. That is the berries and sufficient recognition for me.


Good to hear that you only encountered one liberal. Others were not so lucky.
 
2010-11-12 01:55:52 AM  
Penman: Good to hear that you only encountered one liberal. Others were not so lucky.

Wait a minute..you actually think there's a possibility that he only encountered one liberal? At the University of Colorado in 1970?

Or for that matter, ANY American university in 1970.

lol
 
2010-11-12 02:05:59 AM  
You live in a society where people flip over cars, Smash windows, and start fires when their sports team loses ... Or wins for that matter. Where people pull guns on each other for getting cut off in traffic . Hell you're posting to a website where half a dozen fistfigts would breakout every week on the political threads if people weren't separated by the Internet, but yet the idea of someone spitting on a vet is beyond your belief threshold without video evidence? Seriously?
 
2010-11-12 04:26:05 AM  
imprimere: Moopy Mac: imprimere: Stanfan114: ritalinchild 54: Stanfan114: How come with the millions of photos taken during and after Vietnam, the reels of news footage of soldiers coming home, there is not one single photograph showing a soldier being spat on?

It seems you can't even ask the question. That's some powerful propaganda.

^^^^^^

Show me the proof that anyone was spit on in an airport.

/agreeing with you for personal reasons

Photos apparently are not forthcoming. Because they don't exist.

Can you show me an actual photo of someone slipping someone a ruhepnal?

Come on, I know these things don't exist either!

/you're a dumbass

That's a horrible example because of drug tests (and there are surveillance videos in clubs of people slipping mickies into drinks). I'm trying to come up with an actual intelligent comparison, but I can't think of any.

It just doesn't make any sense that there aren't any pictures or videos if it was as widespread as the younger generation is made to believe. I'm not saying people are lying, but time has a way of effecting one's memory.

How long does it take to spit at someone? A second? Most of the anecdotal stories here don't include spitting perse, but to suggest that it didn't happen because you don't have a picture is naive at best.

Where are these surveillance videos you speak of? If you can't produce them, then they didn't happen. How many pictures do you have of people poisioning people? I've seen many shows perpetrate this myth as well.

Stick you head in the sand all you want. Where is the proof that this was a devious plan by Nixon's crew? Yet, you're swallowing that one on faith!


I never said it was a devious plan by Nixon or anyone else. Why are you so angry?

When you really, really want to believe something (like you obviously do), the absence of evidence does not give you pause. That's a personal failure and hopefully you will never serve on a jury.
 
2010-11-12 04:50:12 AM  
You guys have to pull back a little and take a look at the bigger picture.
When I was a teenager in the 1960's/1970's, anybody who looked out of the norm was labeled a hippy, whether or not they were one. Today we take it for granted that we're able to adopt whatever kind of clothes and attitude we want. But back in the 1960's, people had conformity shoved down their throats. I remember boys wearing ties and how it was still scandalous for women to wear pants (When women started burning their bras, some religious types were certain the Rapture was imminent). But Americans being Americans, some of us rebelled against this conformity by dressing whichever way we wanted.
Not everybody who dressed as a hippy on purpose was a hippy either. A lot of those types were after sex and drugs. People complain about hippies being parasitical. They should take a long hard look at the wolves in sheep's clothing.
Having said that, I now need to say I have no doubt that some Vets were treated horribly upon their return to he USA. But I don't believe all of the accounts and I think it's reasonable to say that others have been reasonably embellished. And like I said at the beginning of this post, anybody who looked out of the norm was generally considered to be a hippy and were identified as such by eyewitnesses.
One last note on this subject: This evening I went to the house of a friend who served in Vietnam for our monthly OGRE/GEV miniatures game. We talked about his treatment by civilians after his tour of duty was over. He said it was his feeling that Nixon was pulling strings to marginalize Vets the same way every conservative under the sun was attacking the anti-war movement. I then asked my friend what was his honest opinion of hippies. He told me that upon his arrival home, the only satisfying comfort he found was in the arms of willing hippy women.
 
2010-11-12 07:46:11 AM  
lefty201: Thank you veterans. We owe you. For far too long we have stood on your backs and enjoyed the benefits without giving you the credit you deserve, or the dignity that you are owed.


and to you Marines out there....Happy Birthday hoo-rah


Do not thank me. My "service" to the country (USN, 1980-1984) consisted of delivering chemical and biological weapons to our good friend, the democratically-elected Saddam Hussein, beloved leader of the freest country in the mid-east (that's what they told me). When we were floating around the Persian Gulf, we were told that we might be attacking Iran any day. I told me division officer that I would desert if we launched an attack (yes, you can desert on a ship).

/I salute those who defended our freedom in the American Revolution and the War of 1812.
//Fark the rest. In any armed conflict, I will always support those who are defending their homes and families; I will never support the aggressor.
 
2010-11-12 07:47:14 AM  
The_Sponge: Elvis_Bogart: Horseshiat. I've spoken to many Vietnam vets including my dad who were treated terribly by the "peace-lovers" when they came back.

Sell that B.S. someplace else.


Ditto.

CSB:

Back in high school I volunteered at an adult day center. One guy (Ernie) told me a story about when he was in NYC shortly after he came back from Vietnam:

Some asshole called him a babykiller, so Ernie punched him in the face. Said asshole ran off to get a cop, and brought one back.

"Did you punch this guy?" said the cop.

"Yes," said Ernie. "And if anyone else calls me a babykiller, I'll do it again."

Then the cop told the jerk to get the f*ck out of there.


Did Ernie then beat the carp out of himself to defend the free speech rights of the guy he punched?
 
2010-11-12 08:01:41 AM  
Agent Nick Fury: It's the soldier, not the reporter who has given us Freedom of the Press.

It's the soldier, not the poet, who has given us Freedom of Speech.

It's the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the
Freedom to Demonstrate.

It's the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the Right to a Fair Trial.

It's the soldier who salutes the flag, serves under the flag and
whose coffin is draped by the flag, who gives the protestor the right to burn the flag.

~Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC


This is why a salute those who fought the Revolution and the War of 1812. The Vietnamese, Koreans, Filipinos, Japanese, Germans, Guatemalans, Salvadorans, Chileans, Indonesians, Angolans, Afghans, Iraqis, Somalis, Confederates, American Indians, Grenadians, Cubans, Mexicans, etc., etc., etc., have never been a threat to those rights. Currently, the only threat to those rights is coming from Washington D.C.

/I hope I don't get arrested for posting this, as I'm not posting from a "free speech zone."
 
2010-11-12 08:27:18 AM  
Then why join the military?
 
2010-11-12 08:49:54 AM  
imprimere: Repo Man: imprimere: Injuneer: gopher321 Hippies.Must.Die.
This hatred of "dirty hippies" is very dubious. What did hippies ever do to you? Did any of them ever try to kill you?
Hippies had a very valid reason for protesting the war back then. Their gov't wanted to kill them by sending them into a meat grinder in an Asian country.
In reference to TFA, however, I cannot defend attacking returning soldiers.
While it would serve a great purpose for Republicans to have no takers when they want to start another war, forcing the Republicans to fight their own damm wars, we should not take out our hatred of the war on those who fight for our country. We should embrace the soldiers and spit upon the Republican draft-dodgers who start wars for fun, as in Iraq/Vietnam. Don't spit on vets, spit on Dumbya/cheney/Rove/MCconnell.

How does everyone get a Republican War out of this???

Again, WHO GOT US INTO THIS WAR!?!

Eisenhower.

That's right... Eisenhower was president at the time, wasn't he? Oh, that's right, he was Congress then, wasn't he? You delusionists never want to own up to a damn thing, do you?


From Wikipedia: In the south, former Emperor Bảo Đại's State of Vietnam operated, with Ngô Đình Diệm (appointed in July 1954) as his prime minister. In June 1955, Diem announced that elections would not be held. South Vietnam had rejected the agreement from the beginning and was therefore not bound by it, he said. "How can we expect 'free elections' to be held in the Communist North?" Diem asked. President Dwight D. Eisenhower echoed senior U.S. experts[68] when he wrote that, in 1954, "80 per cent of the population would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh" over Emperor Bảo Đại.[69][70]

In April-June 1955, Diem (against U.S. advice) cleared the decks of any political opposition in the south by launching military operations against the Cao Dai religious sect, the Hoa Hao sect of Ba Cut, and the Binh Xuyen organized crime group (which was allied with members of the secret police and some military elements). As broad-based opposition to his harsh tactics mounted, Diem increasingly sought to blame the communists.[71]

In a referendum on the future of the State of Vietnam on 23 October, Diem rigged the poll supervised by his brother Ngo Dinh Nhu and was credited with 98.2 percent of the vote, including 133% in Saigon. His American advisers had recommended a more modest winning margin of "60 to 70 percent." Diem, however, viewed the election as a test of authority.[72] On 26 October 1955, Diem declared the new Republic of Vietnam (ROV), with himself as president.[73] The ROV was created largely because of the Eisenhower administration's desire for an anti-communist state in the region.[71]


The Eisenhower administration supported Diem's suspension of the nationwide election that had been agreed upon in the Geneva accords. You see, we're big believers in democracy, and self determination, unless it appears that the side we're backing will lose. So yes, our misadventure in Vietnam can chiefly be blamed on Eisenhower.
 
2010-11-12 09:07:08 AM  
Listen my children and you shall hear the rewriters of history comming near.

Since I was there, I am getting a kick(a real kick in the shins) out of this,,,
 
2010-11-12 09:07:37 AM  
Winter Soldier (new window). Even if you don't like it, at least skip to the end where there's a film clip of General Westmoreland saying, "they don't value human life, like we do."
 
2010-11-12 09:20:39 AM  
Agent Nick Fury: It's the soldier, not the reporter who has given us Freedom of the Press.

It's the soldier, not the poet, who has given us Freedom of Speech.

It's the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the
Freedom to Demonstrate.

It's the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the Right to a Fair Trial.

It's the soldier who salutes the flag, serves under the flag and
whose coffin is draped by the flag, who gives the protestor the right to burn the flag.

~Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC


Technically it was politicians.

/just saying
 
2010-11-12 09:25:34 AM  
Repo Man: imprimere: Repo Man: imprimere: Injuneer: gopher321 Hippies.Must.Die.
This hatred of "dirty hippies" is very dubious. What did hippies ever do to you? Did any of them ever try to kill you?
Hippies had a very valid reason for protesting the war back then. Their gov't wanted to kill them by sending them into a meat grinder in an Asian country.
In reference to TFA, however, I cannot defend attacking returning soldiers.
While it would serve a great purpose for Republicans to have no takers when they want to start another war, forcing the Republicans to fight their own damm wars, we should not take out our hatred of the war on those who fight for our country. We should embrace the soldiers and spit upon the Republican draft-dodgers who start wars for fun, as in Iraq/Vietnam. Don't spit on vets, spit on Dumbya/cheney/Rove/MCconnell.

How does everyone get a Republican War out of this???

Again, WHO GOT US INTO THIS WAR!?!

Eisenhower.

That's right... Eisenhower was president at the time, wasn't he? Oh, that's right, he was Congress then, wasn't he? You delusionists never want to own up to a damn thing, do you?

From Wikipedia: In the south, former Emperor Bảo Đại's State of Vietnam operated, with Ngô Đình Diệm (appointed in July 1954) as his prime minister. In June 1955, Diem announced that elections would not be held. South Vietnam had rejected the agreement from the beginning and was therefore not bound by it, he said. "How can we expect 'free elections' to be held in the Communist North?" Diem asked. President Dwight D. Eisenhower echoed senior U.S. experts[68] when he wrote that, in 1954, "80 per cent of the population would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh" over Emperor Bảo Đại.[69][70]

In April-June 1955, Diem (against U.S. advice) cleared the decks of any political opposition in the south by launching military operations against the Cao Dai religious sect, the Hoa Hao sect of Ba Cut, and the Binh Xuyen organized crime group (which was allied with members of the secret police and some military elements). As broad-based opposition to his harsh tactics mounted, Diem increasingly sought to blame the communists.[71]

In a referendum on the future of the State of Vietnam on 23 October, Diem rigged the poll supervised by his brother Ngo Dinh Nhu and was credited with 98.2 percent of the vote, including 133% in Saigon. His American advisers had recommended a more modest winning margin of "60 to 70 percent." Diem, however, viewed the election as a test of authority.[72] On 26 October 1955, Diem declared the new Republic of Vietnam (ROV), with himself as president.[73] The ROV was created largely because of the Eisenhower administration's desire for an anti-communist state in the region.[71]

The Eisenhower administration supported Diem's suspension of the nationwide election that had been agreed upon in the Geneva accords. You see, we're big believers in democracy, and self determination, unless it appears that the side we're backing will lose. So yes, our misadventure in Vietnam can chiefly be blamed on Eisenhower.


Ike doesn't get all the credit. Ho Chi Minh was not seen as anticommunist enough by the Truman Admin. His pleas for support throwing out the French and unifying Vietnam under an elected government were ignored. His delegation was not granted recognition nor audience. Ike finally settled on supporting the second largest drug czars in the world at that time, the Diem Brothers. This was before cocaine, heroin ruled. Uncle Ho was demomnized.
Business as usual.
 
2010-11-12 09:45:02 AM  
TheMysticS:
What growing up has taught me- everyone has choices to make. Those who serve do so for many reasons, and I AM NOT GOING TO JUDGE ANYONE on that.

So you don't judge the poor Germans from Berlin ghettos who used the SS as a way out of grinding poverty?
 
2010-11-12 10:02:44 AM  
mama's_tasty_foods:
A number of people have directly claimed it happened to them. I guess if you choose to define "proof" as something other than eyewitness accounts, you can maintain there is no "proof."

People can claim anything - that's the whole point of having evidence to back up a claim.

I don't think every single person is lying, at least not intentionally, but memory is not a fool-proof system. Just as an example, how many people watched the "Miracle on Ice" live yet now remember it as the gold-winning game and would swear on their parents' grave that they remember this perfectly?

Or the rape victims who have sworn in a courtroom that the defendant was their attacker, only for DNA testing to later prove it could not have been them?

My personal guess is that, of the many accounts, a sizable # are either scammers (if people can falsely claim to have even served, it is entirely plausible for veterans to falsely claim such incidents), or veterans who may have experienced some tense moments that they have later conflated with movie and popular media accounts to include details that did not actually occur (to them).

Given the trauma of the war, and the likely anxiety and tension of the return home (at least initially), it would be surprising if a # of vets intentionally suppressed such memories, allowing an even greater opportunity for the memories to be distorted and reformed by intervening (media) experiences.

In the end, there were more than likely real incidents. But the damning thing, at least to me, is the aforementioned lack of photo and video evidence from the time period. It just does not seem terribly likely to have been prevalent in the absence of any concrete evidence, given the innumerable opportunities for visual recording and/or media accounts during/immediately after the war.

More importantly, the anti-war movement was not the same as what we culturally remember it as being. A lot of research has shown the prevalence of both vets and older generations - as with any other generation, an appreciable number of kids were just indifferent (at least beyond ensuring their own deferral).
 
2010-11-12 10:18:54 AM  
lefty201: Then why join the military?

Me? Because Iran was holding 52 Americans hostage. By the time I got over there, they had been released. There was no reason to attack them at that point.
 
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