If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The New York Times)   Like so many things, the myth that Vietnam Veterans were mistreated comes from the Nixon Whitehouse as a way to discredit war opponents   (nytimes.com) divider line 316
    More: Sad, discredits  
•       •       •

9990 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Nov 2010 at 3:04 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



316 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | » | Last | Show all
 
2010-11-11 09:53:28 AM  
Horseshiat. I've spoken to many Vietnam vets including my dad who were treated terribly by the "peace-lovers" when they came back.

Sell that B.S. someplace else.
 
2010-11-11 11:35:00 AM  
trolltastic, subby.

But really... 2/10. Way too obvious, even before I clicked on the link.
 
2010-11-11 11:41:07 AM  
Like most things in life, the level of vet-hate was probably more than the deniers wish it was and less than the accusers say it was.

The important thing is that we're still rehashing this 40 year old argument while we're actively engaged in two wars overseas.
 
2010-11-11 12:14:35 PM  
Sorry, but even as an antiwar person, I think that's bullsh*t.

Similarly, when I protested the then-impending invasion of Iraq in 2002-2003, I was spit on and called a 'traitor'.

The left is not better than the right.
The right is not better than the left.
 
2010-11-11 12:14:45 PM  
"All they wanted from the country they loved was for it to love them back." John Rambo.
 
2010-11-11 12:23:12 PM  
I know, right? Some national organizations made a habit of lambasting returning Vietnam vets, in some cases actually denying them membership or services regardless of the vets' personal views. The VFW and the VA come to mind.
 
2010-11-11 12:45:05 PM  
But did we find Vietnam's WMDs?
 
2010-11-11 12:58:18 PM  
Don't tell me it didn't happen. Even the people who didn't directly confront returning servicemen were still physically fighting police or war supporters in the streets in the most counterintuitive fashion for getting your supposedly peaceful point across.

My dad tells tons of stories like that, and he was a draft counselor during Nam. He was 100% against the war, but even said (more or less), "There's a way to protest, and there's a way to look like an asshole. I never fell into that trap. All I wanted to do was find legal ways for guys who were drafted to get out of going to Nam."

Besides, even if the civilian population didn't mistreat them, the gov't certainly did. Know what it takes to get an Agent Orange health claim successfully processed? Neither does the V.A..
 
2010-11-11 01:07:07 PM  
Elvis_Bogart: Horseshiat. I've spoken to many Vietnam vets including my dad who were treated terribly by the "peace-lovers" when they came back.

Sell that B.S. someplace else.


I agree... USMC 68-70
 
2010-11-11 01:34:27 PM  
I_C_Weener: "All they wanted from the country they loved was for it to love them back." John Rambo.

"Don't love something that can't love you back" -2Wolves
 
2010-11-11 01:49:39 PM  
FTFA: Prof. Peter Karsten, who teaches history at the University of Pittsburgh and edited the Encyclopedia of War and American Society, said he rejected the notion that the veterans were mistreated. It was "a myth," he said, traced to the Nixon White House as a way to discredit war opponents.

"It's a slander on the American public to believe that soldiers were disrespected," he said.


Rewriting history does not make it true. This guy is an idiot.

USASA 1973 to 1976
 
2010-11-11 02:02:51 PM  
Elvis_Bogart: Horseshiat. I've spoken to many Vietnam vets including my dad who were treated terribly by the "peace-lovers" when they came back.

Sell that B.S. someplace else.



Ditto.

CSB:

Back in high school I volunteered at an adult day center. One guy (Ernie) told me a story about when he was in NYC shortly after he came back from Vietnam:

Some asshole called him a babykiller, so Ernie punched him in the face. Said asshole ran off to get a cop, and brought one back.

"Did you punch this guy?" said the cop.

"Yes," said Ernie. "And if anyone else calls me a babykiller, I'll do it again."

Then the cop told the jerk to get the f*ck out of there.
 
2010-11-11 02:03:52 PM  
Hippies.
Must.
Die.
 
2010-11-11 02:05:36 PM  
The guy who made the remark, Peter Karsten, a history professor at Pitt has made a career of this study. He served as editor for the massive "Encyclopedia of War and American Culture" which was published in 2005.

This encyclopedia, which you can pick up at Amazon for $420, seems to have been completely ignored by academia and is largely serving as a shelf filler in the few libraries which can afford it.

I was honestly surprised that I couldn't find anybody commenting on the quality or depth of the research that went into it. (Other than publishers' blurbs.)

Karsten has almost no public record that I can see. (Back in 2004, he was quoted as saying that it was rare for athletes like Pat Tillman to serve.) I was going to say that maybe we should listen to this guy but I can't find any reason to believe him.
 
2010-11-11 02:54:20 PM  
BigTuna: Like most things in life, the level of vet-hate was probably more than the deniers wish it was and less than the accusers say it was.

This. To think no vets were mistreated is ignorant. To believe the great majority of them were is ignorant.
 
2010-11-11 03:08:55 PM  
2wolves: I_C_Weener: "All they wanted from the country they loved was for it to love them back." John Rambo.

"Don't love something that can't love you back" -2Wolves


"Don't pay upfront, because then you'll never get the full happy ending."- Ponzholio
 
2010-11-11 03:09:31 PM  
From this thread it is pretty clear Nixon was successful.
 
2010-11-11 03:09:56 PM  
 
2010-11-11 03:10:28 PM  
downstairs: BigTuna: Like most things in life, the level of vet-hate was probably more than the deniers wish it was and less than the accusers say it was.

This. To think no vets were mistreated is ignorant. To believe the great majority of them were is ignorant.


But the majority/minority experience is what is being debated. I'm inclined to lean toward the "lone dirty hippie making the other dirty hippies look bad" theory, but that's me.
 
2010-11-11 03:11:22 PM  
I guess the high suicide rates among Vietnam veterans is because of all the flowers and candy they received when they got home.
 
2010-11-11 03:11:36 PM  
Who to believe... subby or Forrest Gump?
 
2010-11-11 03:11:49 PM  
Elvis_Bogart: Horseshiat. I've spoken to many Vietnam vets including my dad who were treated terribly by the "peace-lovers" when they came back.

Sell that B.S. someplace else.


Exactly. Not my dad, but several of my cousins were treated badly after coming home from Vietnam. They were called names, spat upon, etc.
 
2010-11-11 03:12:02 PM  
Excen: downstairs: BigTuna: Like most things in life, the level of vet-hate was probably more than the deniers wish it was and less than the accusers say it was.

This. To think no vets were mistreated is ignorant. To believe the great majority of them were is ignorant.

But the majority/minority experience is what is being debated. I'm inclined to lean toward the "lone dirty hippie making the other dirty hippies look bad" theory, but that's me.


There was another second hippy on the grassy knoll, man.
 
2010-11-11 03:12:41 PM  
Because 1 guys said so at the bottom of an article.
 
2010-11-11 03:13:58 PM  
www.fromthevaultradio.org
DERP
 
2010-11-11 03:15:38 PM  
real shaman: Elvis_Bogart: Horseshiat. I've spoken to many Vietnam vets including my dad who were treated terribly by the "peace-lovers" when they came back.

Sell that B.S. someplace else.

I agree... USMC 68-70


Did you get spit on? Story time
 
2010-11-11 03:16:11 PM  
So, Karsten can't find a plausible way to blame George Bush?
 
2010-11-11 03:16:47 PM  
Somebody tell me what was worse?
Being mistreated by a handful of hippies or ignored by conservatives and left to rot out on the street?
Hippies were a nuisance. The guys up top cutting/denying your benefits are the real enemy.
 
2010-11-11 03:18:25 PM  
BillCo: FTFA: Prof. Peter Karsten, who teaches history at the University of Pittsburgh and edited the Encyclopedia of War and American Society, said he rejected the notion that the veterans were mistreated. It was "a myth," he said, traced to the Nixon White House as a way to discredit war opponents.

"It's a slander on the American public to believe that soldiers were disrespected," he said.

Rewriting history does not make it true. This guy is an idiot.

USASA 1973 to 1976


Agreed. I guess I must have been imagining things when I got spit on and called a baby killer at the airport in Atlanta when I came back from SEA in 1973. There are entirely too many experts on this subject who weren't even born when this shiat went down. BTW, this is not a left/right issue and anyone who tries to make it that is a farking douche.

USAF 1972-1976
 
2010-11-11 03:19:25 PM  
The worst cases I ever heard of occurred at the end of WWII when black military men were lynched in their uniforms on returning home to the South.

Or the black war hero who came off his ocean liner transport ship, stepped on to NYC terra firma and was greeted with two signs pointing in opposite directions..."White" and "Colored".
 
2010-11-11 03:20:27 PM  
subby can eat a bag of dicks.

shiat, many vets of oef and oif get shiat enough when they come back currently. I can only imagine how much worse it was a few decades ago.

/it's still around
 
2010-11-11 03:20:32 PM  
"They're shown coming off the plane to family and friends," said Karen Lazar of Harrington, Del. "You see it all the time. They see this, too. These Vietnam vets had no one."

www.forties.net

/Oh really, Karen?
 
2010-11-11 03:21:59 PM  
It's been 40 years and we are still fighting the Viet Nam war. Jeez, get over it. Not the vets but the pundits.
 
2010-11-11 03:22:03 PM  
TheShavingofOccam123: I guess the high suicide rates among Vietnam veterans is because of all the flowers and candy they received when they got home.

http://www.baycitizen.org/veterans/story/suicide-rates-soar-among-wwii-vets/

So how do you spin that?
 
2010-11-11 03:22:41 PM  
Those poor Hmong.
 
2010-11-11 03:23:59 PM  
Ponzholio: 2wolves: I_C_Weener: "All they wanted from the country they loved was for it to love them back." John Rambo.

"Don't love something that can't love you back" -2Wolves

"Don't pay upfront, because then you'll never get the full happy ending."- Ponzholio


"Charlie don't surf!" - LtCol. Bill Kilgore
 
2010-11-11 03:24:44 PM  
A book's even been written which discredits this myth:

artsci.wustl.edu

downstairs: To think no vets were mistreated is ignorant. To believe the great majority of them were is ignorant.

Every nation slanders its citizens who fail to thirst for blood. The hate on "hippies," which ridiculously extends to this day, is just the most famous slander.
 
2010-11-11 03:25:04 PM  
Like so many things, the myth that Vietnam Veterans
were mistreated comes from the Nixon Whitehouse
as a way to discredit war opponents


granitegrok.com

Just fly a little more this way,,
So I can show you some appreciation


Nixon was like a snake on steroids but we can't pin this on him.
The country should be ashamed of the way Vietnam Veterans were treated.
 
2010-11-11 03:26:00 PM  
Is that the same Karsten that EHOWA had an exchange with? IIRC a cadet or something wrote the prof and the prof essentially told the cadet that all people in the military should DIAF.

If its one and the same hes about as credible a source as the Weekly World News.
 
2010-11-11 03:26:02 PM  
Twice in the last couple years, strangers have approached me and said thanks for serving.
Blew me away.
 
2010-11-11 03:26:40 PM  
TofuTheAlmighty: A book's even been written which discredits this myth:



downstairs: To think no vets were mistreated is ignorant. To believe the great majority of them were is ignorant.

Every nation slanders its citizens who fail to thirst for blood. The hate on "hippies," which ridiculously extends to this day, is just the most famous slander.


Yep:

In fact, the antiwar movement and many veterans were closely aligned, and the only documented incidents show members of the VFW and American Legion spitting on their less successful Vietnam peers.

Methinks a lot of these Vietnam vets have watched "First Blood" one too many times.
 
2010-11-11 03:26:46 PM  
I was with my dad when he was "confronted" in San Francisco. Must have been '71.

I, too, call B.S.

I served from 85-89 and never got grief.

I make it a point to say thanks to every person I see in uniform now.
 
2010-11-11 03:27:55 PM  
TofuTheAlmighty: Every nation slanders its citizens who fail to thirst for blood.

lulz you win the most bizarre pulled-out-of-your-arse comment of the day. congrats.

/btw citation plz
 
2010-11-11 03:28:06 PM  
gimpel: I was with my dad when he was "confronted" in San Francisco. Must have been '71.

I, too, call B.S.

I served from 85-89 and never got grief.

I make it a point to say thanks to every person I see in uniform now.


What happened?
 
2010-11-11 03:28:52 PM  
BlippityBleep: TofuTheAlmighty: Every nation slanders its citizens who fail to thirst for blood.

lulz you win the most bizarre pulled-out-of-your-arse comment of the day. congrats.

/btw citation plz


"You are either with us or against us"

President George W. Bush
 
2010-11-11 03:28:54 PM  
Coelacanth: Somebody tell me what was worse?
Being mistreated by a handful of hippies or ignored by conservatives and left to rot out on the street?
Hippies were a nuisance. The guys up top cutting/denying your benefits are the real enemy.


Wow... nice try. Remind me who got us into that war again? I'm not defending anyone in the government now or then, but your trolling against conservatives is transparent and ridiculous.

/Father (now dying from cancer caused by agent orange) and Uncle both served in Vietnam and neither were treated well upon their return. I'll take their first-hand accounts over your attention-whore 'researcher'.
 
2010-11-11 03:30:05 PM  
Coelacanth: Somebody tell me what was worse?
Being mistreated by a handful of hippies or ignored by conservatives and left to rot out on the street?


and which was worse, that or the atrocities the Vietnamese endured because of our illegal war?

I'm sorry they were all put in a very difficult situation. But choosing the immoral side of something that huge and the consequence: "a couple people called you names"? We should all be so lucky.
 
2010-11-11 03:30:17 PM  
Prof. Peter Karsten said he rejected the notion that the veterans were mistreated. It was "a myth" traced to the Nixon White House as a way to discredit war opponents.

He's trying to wash away that black stain on his soul that has festered by trying to convince himself and everyone else that it never happened. Sorry bub. It will be there till the day you die. You made your bed. Now lie in it.
 
2010-11-11 03:30:19 PM  
The Jami Turman Fan Club: TheShavingofOccam123: I guess the high suicide rates among Vietnam veterans is because of all the flowers and candy they received when they got home.

http://www.baycitizen.org/veterans/story/suicide-rates-soar-among-wwii-vets/

So how do you spin that?


Spin?

Let's let the 86 year old veteran speak for himself.

"It's logical," said Ken Norwood, 86, a retired architect who was shot down during a bombing raid over Belgium and spent a year as a Nazi prisoner of war.

You can read his extended comments yourself.

Or let's let the experts speak for themselves.

Kerri Childress, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, said the high suicide for World War II veterans today is at least partially an outgrowth of the lack of understanding of post-traumatic stress six decades ago.

But let's examine what the CDC said about suicide rates after discharge from Vietnam service. "The CDC Vietnam Experience Study Mortality Assessment showed that during the first 5 years after discharge, deaths from suicide were 1.7 times more likely among Vietnam veterans than non-Vietnam veterans."

Oh and thanks to the last administration's refusal to abandon multiple 15 month tours with little or no time off, our current batch of veterans may just beat that previous record.
 
2010-11-11 03:30:27 PM  
The Jami Turman Fan Club: http://www.baycitizen.org/veterans/story/suicide-rates-soar-among-wwii-vets/

So how do you spin that?


Remember that WWII vets have the benefit (if you can call it that) of having so many other veterans of the same conflict around them to talk about things. While that generation is often incredibly stoic in the faces of their families, words between vets were/are anything but.

Now their friends are dying, their children aren't around, money is tight...it's pure speculation, but I wouldn't count those things out.
 
Displayed 50 of 316 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | » | Last | Show all



This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report