Wow! Total of 4 people have commented on this thread and it's 86+ comments already! LOL.

Hmm, I spoke too soon, I missed RabidWeasel's post.

btw SchlingFo:

2003-06-28 08:52:01 PM
RabidWeasel



Schling - A girl of 12 has not reached the age of majority. You are wrong. So sorry.


I didn't say it. It's okay though :)..

RabidWeasel... I don't see how you pegged me... You refuse to acknowledge my explanations. You're just a hard headed asshat. I could repeat myself till i'm blue in the face, you just won't listen. But just in case, i'll say it again. I was talking about democracy, not morality, and I made it clear before you posted.

Ender:

We battled? I don't remember. I have a bad memory when it comes to Fark arguments.. I usually don't remember who I argue with.. unless it's Lewis ;p.

Also, want to tell me why people keep accusing me of saying things I didn't say or imply? It's driving me batty.

Imagine a culture where evolution comes to a grinding halt. People are forced into a set and rigid way of life, with no hope of escape, freedom, or independence. And woe be to those who dare to resist.


All hail Landru! Submit to the will of Landru!

(yeah. It's about the same as being in Sado Arabia, isn't it?)

Side note in the Trekkian vein: Even the Borg are allowed to adapt & evolve)

Saudi Arabia and the Western World, an examination:

Status of women:
SA: No rights. Forced to wear veils. Cannot vote, drive a car or be seen in public without a male relative. Beaten with sticks if they disobey Sharia law.
West: Equal rights as men. In some cases, women possess special rights that men do not. In the US, divorced women commonly retain custody of children, for example.

Winner: The West.

Rule of Law:
SA: There is no civil law of any sort. The entire system of jurisprudence is based on Sharia, which is the direct world of God, as revealed by Mohammed. Trials are not conducted by jury, and the judges are typically also within the religious heirarchy. Common punishments include public beheading, dismemberment or being beaten with sticks.
West: Ecclesiastical authority has utterly no say in civil law. Some western states still execute criminals, but cruel and unusual punishment (such as beating people with sticks) is illegal. Judges are typically elected or appointed by elected officials, and judges are not members of the clergy.

Winner: The West.


Status of Homosexuals:
Saudi Arabia: Homosexuals are put to death, as per Sharia law.
The West: While homosexuals often experience some degree of public stigma, their human rights are no different that other members of society, and they enjoy the same rights as all.

Winner: The West.


Anyone else noticing a pattern here?

bobette,

is the "age of majority" 11? 12?

In most of the cultures, it's right around there. I believe some of the cultures consider women to be of the age of majority when they start puberty.

he custom of female genital mutilation is barbaric and horrible. you can't compare it to an 18 year old going down and getting her clit pierced (and before a girl puts metal through there, she's going to find out what the potential side effects are, believe me). one is a choice; the other is thousands of years of custom being pushed on little girls who are not told what is going to happen to them

An 18 year old here may or may not be told of the potential problems with a clit piercing, depending on whether she goes to a good place or a shady place.

Regardless, ignorance doesn't take away the ability to consent to doing something. An 18 year old can't say he wasn't able to consent to stealing a car because he didn't know it was illegal. His ignorance doesn't negate his ability to consent to stealing it.

Now, you say that female circumcision is the result of thousands of years of custom being forced on a little girl who isn't told what's going to happen to them.

I hope that you oppose male circumcision, as well. It is a surgical process performed on a baby that has, can, and will continue to result in mutilation from time to time. It is also a process that serves no other purpose than to keep tradition.

Mr. Weasel and Mr. Korag:
We all believe that Saudi Arabian culture needs to change. The slavery thing I can't speak to, because I don't know. The burqa thing is true. The Rushdie Fatwah is from Iran, who are Persian. The FGM in Saudi issue is also one I cannot speak to. They use toilet paper here now. I say here because I am here, in the Middle East, as a member of the US military. It the unthinking hostility you have displayed that marks you as someone who cannot be brought into civilized society. If you want to "lance the boil" as you so eloquently put it, feel free to come over here yourself. I'll make sure we have a bunk for you.

For the record, women in Arabia don't wear burqas. They wear abayas.

Smooky, you ignorant slut. Nowhere in your statement did the words "democracy" ever appear. If I misread your quote, it's because you failed to accurately communicate your point.

Now shut the fark up, cretin.

Hah! now I remember you Ender, you asked me what I did for my country lately, now I remember! You're still alive! Good! How is it over there?

Calling a Farker a "slut" isn't necessarily an insult...

"I didn't say it. It's okay though :).."

I know you didn't say it, you farking neanderthal. That's why I addressed it to Schling.

Asswipe.

SchlingFo:
I only know that I'm a HUGE proponent of adults taking responsibility for their own actions. I can't think of anything I don't support, as far as activities between consenting adults.

That is your opinion, and it is a western one. It does not make sense for you to take a western idea - consenting adults taking responsibility for their actions - and applying it to a non-western situation. Your idea of consenting adults taking responsibility for their actions is rooted in the Western ideal of people of the age of majority (18+ for us) doing what they want to. For one, the "age of majority" in female genital mutilation situations means nothing except that a girl has had her period. While this may signal that she is becoming physically mature, it does not signal that she is mentally or emotionally mature enough to make a decision, especially if it is one that is uninformed. SO, not only are you applying a Western ideal to a non-Western situation, you're mixing up an 18 year old and a 12 year old - there are a LOT of differences, believe me.

Also, in the Middle East, including in Saudi Arabia, there is no "consenting adults doing what they please". In nations such as Saudi Arabia, you do as the King pleases and as the Sharia laws he is happy to enforce command. If two consenting adults have sex, the woman will most likely be stoned if she isn't married to the man who she slept with. If a woman - an adult woman - walks down the street not in chador, she will be arrested and beaten, especially if she is unaccompanied by a man. If a man drinks alcohol, he will be punished. There are no consenting adults in their society, so your idea of "girls of the age of majority doing as they please" is ridiculous. Not only are they NOT at an age where they can make that decision for themselves, because they will not have experienced much sexually, they are definitely not able to do as they please - ever.

Ender - Give me a gun and I'm there.

Rabid, maybe if you read the article, you would see they were talking about democracy, also, if you understood paragraph structure, you would see that the closest thing to morality that I got to was the criminal justice issue, which was in the third paragraph, and that the first two paragraphs dealt with democracy and culture. I communicated my point, you just don't understand grammar or sentence structure. You should take your own advice and shut up you goddamned loser. You can't admit that you were wrong so you keep whining and insulting like a big baby. Wah wah! you're a poo head Smooky! What a biatch.

RabidWeasel,

West: Equal rights as men.

Then why are women not allowed to join the infantry, artillery, or SF units? Why are women not subject to the draft?

West: Ecclesiastical authority has utterly no say in civil law. Some western states still execute criminals, but cruel and unusual punishment (such as beating people with sticks) is illegal.

To your first point, I suggest you look towards John Ashcroft. This man is the height of uber-religious, and he is the head attorney for our government.

As to your second point, do not feel that locking someone in a cage for 50 years, where they will be subjected to rape and all kinds of abuse, to be cruel and unusual? If not, then I'd hate to see your idea of cruel and unusual.

The West: While homosexuals often experience some degree of public stigma, their human rights are no different that other members of society, and they enjoy the same rights as all.

I guess I missed the part of the laws regarding equal employment that guaranteed employment regardless of someone's sexual preference.

Mr. Weasel: you can get a gun for free. Get off yer ass and join the Army;)

Smooky: Doin pretty well. Comin home in a couple weeks, and I can't wait:)

Rabid, Schling thought I said it.. which proves your reading comprehension skills. You're just amazingly dumb, aren't you? How have you survived so long without running into a truck?

Ender sez:

" I say here because I am here, in the Middle East, as a member of the US military".

So, what's it like being a janissary/cannon-fodder for the House of Saud?

Keeping those wells pumpin' for the greater glory (and fatter Swiss bank accounts) of the ruling elite?

You're just another slave to them, and unlike the ones in days of olde, you don't even know it.

Ender: I was in ROTC in college, made it all the way to the last month before commissioning, was Airborne and everything.

Then, a pre-commissioning phsyical revealed that I had asthma. I am now physically disqualified from serving in any branch of the Armed Forces. Probably the Coast Guard as well.

But hey, I tried.

Ender_rpm
puts Korag on his ignore list

:( I was hoping you were going to blast him.

Korag wins. Fatality. Flawless victory.

I was hoping for that too.

Of course you do, Smooks. You share your arab buddies' penchant for the death of anyone who disagrees with you.

He enlisted in the reserves to pay for college, I don't see how that makes him a slave. I see it as him trying to make his life better. He's a lot braver than you'll ever be.

I share my arab buddies' penchant for the death of anyone who disagrees with me? You're delusional, you know that, right?

Just a curious question, but is Ender a MALE member of the US Armed Forces, or a female?

I'll bet it's a he, because if Ender was a she, I'll bet "she" would have had a LOT suckier time in Sado Arabia (yes, even the US female soldiers gotta wear burquas. Funny how they don't want us to look down on them, but they have no trouble forcing their culture down on OUR women too. Go fig.).

Mr. Weasel,
Sorry to hear that. May have broadened your understanding of this area, as it has mine. Its not just Saudi, but his whole place, that desperately needs to be "Enlightened".

Schling -

"Then why are women not allowed to join the infantry, artillery, or SF units? Why are women not subject to the draft?"

That is military policy, which is NOT subject to civil authority. The Uniform Code of Military Justice is applied to the Armed Forces. It's essentially a case of comparing apples and oranges.

"To your first point, I suggest you look towards John Ashcroft. This man is the height of uber-religious, and he is the head attorney for our government."

Is Ashcroft a priest? Does he have a divinity degree?

"As to your second point, do not feel that locking someone in a cage for 50 years, where they will be subjected to rape and all kinds of abuse, to be cruel and unusual? If not, then I'd hate to see your idea of cruel and unusual."

A. What did this person do to be incarcerated for fifty years? In the US, the only crime that can carry that kind of punishment is non-capital murder, which has a mandatory sentence in most states of 25 years-life. If someone served 25 years in prison, and was denied parole, chances are they killed somebody. I have no problem with keeping them in prison for the rest of their lives.

B. Raping someone in prison is just as illegal as raping someone on the street. The reason so few offenses are punished is due to a culture of silence among prisoners, in which those who turn state's evidence are generally killed. Also, corrections officers generally don't care, which is criminal in itself. Nevertheless, prison rape is rape, as far as the law is concerned.

"I guess I missed the part of the laws regarding equal employment that guaranteed employment regardless of someone's sexual preference."

It's called the 14th Amendment, which requires due process under law for all citizens, regardless of gender, race, etc.

And if you are going to bring up the military again, see my answer to your first question.

Smooky - I'm done with you, farktard.

Prison rape is just as illegal as any other form.

Smookyfufu - Lust doesn't always lead to rape. Sometimes it leads to keyboard replacement.

In company, if I am lustful, I try to think about other things. In the privacy of my own home, I don't try really hard to defer it.

Likewise, if I am feeling vengeful where someone can see me, I try to ignore it. If I'm really angry, I'll exact it in an acceptable form.

What would happen on a desert island? Who knows. Maybe I would remember the lessons of society and ignore my urges.
Maybe I'd chase people through the jungle with a torch and a sharp stick and drop large rocks on fat kids.

But I digress!

Well... either you buy the natural crap, or you buy the god crap, or you buy the relativism crap. I think the (standard Western) god and natural stuff has a certain advantage in that there's no way it's ok to bang 8 year old kids under those codes.

The relativism crap just.. I dunno. It just seems completely insane. It denies you the ability to condemn anyone for anything. Who's to say that the laws of society are any more sacred than the personal belief system of a serial cannibal? I think relativism makes more eyes bulge than just about anything this side of female circumcision.

Ender - Glad to hear you'll be coming back to CONUS soon. Watch your back over there, and come home in one piece. God be with you.

bobette,

My last sentence about me supporting any actions between two consenting adults was just an aside.

I'm fully aware that there are many things banned in middle-eastern/sub-saharan cultures between two adults.

However, when I speak of consenting, I speak of being able to be held accountable for your actions.

It does not make sense for you to take a western idea - consenting adults taking responsibility for their actions - and applying it to a non-western situation.

Well, the governments/tribal leaders certainly hold to that ideal. They certainly hold people responsible for their actions. This can be seen in the severity of some of the punishments for said actions. Responsibility for your actions is not an exclusively western ideal.

Your idea of consenting adults taking responsibility for their actions is rooted in the Western ideal of people of the age of majority (18+ for us) doing what they want to.

No. My idea of consenting adults taking responsibility for their actions is rooted in the idea that a person of the age of majority, whatever the age of majority is held to be in a culture, is held accountable for their actions.

For one, the "age of majority" in female genital mutilation situations means nothing except that a girl has had her period.

The age of majority applies to all aspects of the girls life. Once she hits puberty (or whatever the age of majority is for the culture), she's an adult.

Regardless, our age of majority means nothing except that a girl has turned 18. Our culture, as well as theirs, has an arbitrary age of majority. No difference.

While this may signal that she is becoming physically mature, it does not signal that she is mentally or emotionally mature enough to make a decision, especially if it is one that is uninformed.

Nor does turning 18 mean that a person's mentally or emotionally mature enough to make serious, life-altering decision. But, our country still maintains that arbitrary age of majority.

you're mixing up an 18 year old and a 12 year old - there are a LOT of differences, believe me.

I'm well aware that there is a world of difference between an 18 year old and a 12 year old. However, there is a world of difference between a 25 year old and an 18 year old. So, why not raise the age of majority to 25 in the U.S.?? Or 30?? Or 40??

There are no consenting adults in their society, so your idea of "girls of the age of majority doing as they please" is ridiculous.

I never put forth that idea. I said that girls of the age of majority are able to consent to female circumcision. I'm well aware that there are MANY things people can't do in those countries, regardless of age.

Well, ok:
First, Im a guy. Second, they don't make US service members wear Abayas anymore, not for a couple of years.

And third: Jannissary? Oh, so now you're using Baghdad Bobs terms for me? Or the Ayatollah of Iran, who called the US military a bunch of mercenaries? So you agree with these guys? hmmm....

RabidWeasel, The reason you're done with me is because you have no point to argue, and the words "I'm sorry Smoo, my bad." Just wouldn't fly with your precious ego.

Scotar, I think you would just change enough to try to survive on that desert island i guess.. who can say? I don't know. Maybe you'll lay in the water and sing Madonna songs... heh! kidding.

Well, good night all. Start of a new day here. Been fun.

RabidWeasel,

That is military policy, which is NOT subject to civil authority. The Uniform Code of Military Justice is applied to the Armed Forces. It's essentially a case of comparing apples and oranges.

I'm well aware of the UCMJ, and its scope of applicability. However, the fact remains that blacks, hispanics, etc. are all allowed to serve in the infantry and artillery.

In fact, the very concept of an integrated military was brought about due to civil pressure. The military is as much under civil control as it is military control.

So, obviously, the policies of the military can be dictated by a civilian authority (the President). Why, then, are women not allowed to be infantry, artillery, SF, etc.?

The fact that the civilian authority over the military hasn't effected this change demonstrates that women still aren't truly equal.

Is Ashcroft a priest? Does he have a divinity degree?

He might as well be, for as much as his religion influences his policy.

But, for the record, having a divinity degree doesn't preclude you from being a member of the government. Even someone who served in the church for 20 or 30 or however many years could be an elected or appointed official, provided they had no "official" ties to the church.

A. What did this person do to be incarcerated for fifty years? In the US, the only crime that can carry that kind of punishment is non-capital murder, which has a mandatory sentence in most states of 25 years-life. If someone served 25 years in prison, and was denied parole, chances are they killed somebody. I have no problem with keeping them in prison for the rest of their lives.
B. Raping someone in prison is just as illegal as raping someone on the street. The reason so few offenses are punished is due to a culture of silence among prisoners, in which those who turn state's evidence are generally killed. Also, corrections officers generally don't care, which is criminal in itself. Nevertheless, prison rape is rape, as far as the law is concerned.

None of this answered whether or not you feel that extremely long sentences in sub-human, abusive conditions constitute cruel and unusual punishment.

Do you feel this is cruel and unusual punishment, or not?

It's called the 14th Amendment, which requires due process under law for all citizens, regardless of gender, race, etc.

People are guaranteed employment regardless of their age, sex, race, religion, or national origin. People are not guaranteed employment regardless of their sexual preference.

Therefore, gays do not have the same rights as others.

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html

Schlingfo, for the last time:

The girls who are being mutilated do not have a choice. They are forced to undergo mutilation by both their families and society. They cannot decline to give consent.

Also, the idea that once a girl hits puberty, she's an adult, is quite ridiculous. I hope you're meaning that that's the opinion of other societies, because it certainly doesn't apply here. Let's see. I had my period when I was 11. I was hardly an adult. And frankly, girls at menarche are not considered adults in many other societies either; it's usually still a couple of years before they get married, a better signifier of adulthood.

Anyhow, if you can even remotely excuse the practice of female genital mutilation, you are incredibly sick. I highly doubt that if castration was mandatory for men you'd be offering up the pathetic excuses that "a girl CHOOSES to do it". Completely ridiculous.

*"a boy CHOOSES to do it".

Korag, actually Saudi Arabian women aren't required to undergo genital mutilation.

"Despite the opinion of the scholars, female circumcision never became widespread among Muslims around the world and is essentially non-existent among the native inhabitants of Saudi Arabia and many other Muslim countries today. In contrast, male circumcision is universally practiced among Muslims; this is considered the continuation of a practice enjoined upon Abraham and his followers and is explicitly mentioned in several well-known sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)." http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/fgm.html

And while we may see burqa's and abayas as being oppressive, many Muslim women find security and privacy in them.

And to whoever made the comment, women are no longer required to wear the abaya in Saudi Arabia.

"(a) Prohibition Relating to Wear of Abayas - No member of the Armed Forces having authority over a member of the Armed Forces and no officer or employee of the United States having authority over a member of the Armed Forces may require or encourage that member to wear the abaya garment or any part of the abaya garment while the member is in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia pursuant to a permanent change of station or orders for temporary duty."
http://www.all4nationaldefense.org/Abaya_article.html

bobbette,

The girls who are being mutilated do not have a choice. They are forced to undergo mutilation by both their families and society. They cannot decline to give consent.

They are not physically held down. They are not drugged. They just know that they will have a lower place in society. It's a tough choice. But, life is full of tough choices.

Also, the idea that once a girl hits puberty, she's an adult, is quite ridiculous.

It's no more ridiculous than the idea that once a girl hits 18, she's an adult. But, that idea is widely accepted in the U.S.

I highly doubt that if castration was mandatory for men you'd be offering up the pathetic excuses that "a [boy] CHOOSES to do it". Completely ridiculous.

You're right. I wouldn't say that a boy chooses it. The whole idea of it being mandatory negates the person having a choice in the matter.

However, female circumcision, in most cultures, is not mandatory.

Oh, you failed to address an issue I posed to you earlier. I'll repeat it:

Do you feel that circumcision of males should be banned?

Sarcastic,

There's nothing but us "poopheads" left in here....

Of course, I started drinking, so this is getting a lot more fun :)

bobbette: Too true. Even IF the girls involved were older -just because something is "voluntary," doesn't mean it's voluntary. Kinda like US income tax. According to the wording of the tax code, it's "voluntary." You CAN choose not to pay taxes - you'll just have to not pay taxes while in a PMITA federal prison. A Saudi/Egypt girl can choose not to be mutilated - she'll just be an outcast from society and her family will disown her. Sure, she's got plenty of say in the matter.
Of course like someone said earlier, I do hope you have the same righteous disdain for male circumcision. If so, you rule. If not - well don't try to convince me otherwise on the subject if you don't like a good flamin'.

Schling - Well, I agree that denying women the chance to serve in combat arms is a raw deal, but there is a reason. The overwhelming majority of women simply cannot handle the life on an infantryman. Although a very small number could, that will still require spending vast sums of money to change training facilities and methods to accomodate a small number of women. The military does not operate as a democracy, and women are not entitled to anything there.

But overall, I would like to see women get a fair shake, and if it works out, so much the better. If not, then go back to the current status quo.

But if you really want to see if women want to be equal, make them register for the draft. I bet that would go over really well.

Also, the divinity degree thing was just another way of asking if Ashcroft is a priest, which he isn't. I don't like him any more than you do, but I fail to see how it is that being a born-again Christian is a problem. Would you prefer that all civil servants be secular humanists? Doesn't Ashcroft have a right to subscribe to and practice his religious beliefs as he sees fit?

As far as prison goes, I see no problem with a sentence of life. You kill a guy, you spend the rest of your days incarcerated. There is nothing cruel of unusual about that. The conditions within prison might be cruel and unusual, but the actual sentencing isn't. Should prison rape be vigirously prosecuted? I say yes. Should prisoners have the same human rights are the rest of us? Undoubtedly so.

Should someone who kills a man in cold blood spend less than one day of the rest of his life behind bars? Nope. He needs a permanent "time out". He can just cool his heels in a cell for the rest of his days.

You must have a lawyer present if your put on lawyer and your life depends on it! Just like the prisoners on Guantanamo! Hey, wait a minute? ........

OH, I cant spell... dammit... well you get it? I guess`P damn beer!

RabidWeasel,

I realize that the military isn't a democracy.

However, the arguments you present, such as the cost of integration, were the same arguments presented when there was pressure to fully integrate blacks into the military.

And, I believe I brought the draft issue up in my original argument on this subject. I believe that exempting women from the draft is denying women equal rights.

On the subject of Ashcroft:

I see nothing wrong with having religious people in the government; most people in the government, as well as in this country are religious. However, Ashcroft seems to want to push his religion on the country, as well as the people who work in the DOJ.

I know that if my boss had prayer meetings, I'd be finding another job very quickly.

As to cruel and unusual punishment, we'll just have to agree to disagree :)

Read Paul Berman's new book "Terror an Liberalism". The Saudis are totalitarians just as the Nazis, the Spanish Right Wing, the Stalinists, and the Taliban were.

Their days are numbered, their fate is destruction. It's the destiny of free people evrywhere to drive out totalitarians and install liberal representative democracies.

There is another category of human rights: freedom in the Western concept includes sexual freedom. Many societies, which have a high personal moral code, cannot accept free sex as a human right.

Yeah, it's all about sex, that dirty nasty filthy activity that makes babies. And usually, you are naked when you do it, so you get to see a perfectly nice womans slutty body. If there ever was a masturbatory olympics, Saudi would win. Bet not a one can't watch the matrix (if they could) without becoming aroused at all that inappropriate use of leather, and smarmy, foul mouthed women.

Yeah this might be their culture. Fark the whole goddamn country. Any country that has as a part of it's dogma and pratice the multilation and slaughter of women can go fark itself into oblivion. I hope they get nuked, by a chick, tommorow.