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(Some Shiek)   Saudi Arabia's embassy explains human rights to the West. Not all bad, though: Lawyers aren't a necessary part of judicial system   (saudiembassy.org.uk ) divider line
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5024 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jun 2003 at 7:19 PM (13 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-06-28 08:10:49 PM  
"A century ago, it was difficult to recognise in Europe anything like the human rights of modern Europe."

Heh. When you look at the civil courts in Britain or continental Europe back in 1900, they were still LIGHT YEARS ahead of where Saudi Arabia is now.


Echnin - Korag was responding to Smooky, jackass.

Smooky - "It seems it all boils down to that that is how their culture is, and I guess we shouldn't impose ours on theirs and vice versa"

Ethical relativists like yourself make me sick. Let me ask you the same questions that Dr. Bob Simon, one of my college philisophy professors, used to ask people who professed to a relativist view of morality.

Here goes, "Oh! So you don't believe in a universal standard of ethics? So it's ok for other cultures to do what they want, regardless of who gets hurt? So I guess it's ok for Germans to gas Jews, since that's what they used to like to do there? So I guess it's ok that parents in the Sudan cut off their daughter's clitoris, since that's part of their culture? So I guess it's ok to throw widows onto the funeral pyres of their deceased husbands, since they do that in India? So I guess we just can't render any sort of moral judgement on other cultures at all, eh?"
 
2003-06-28 08:11:09 PM  
Sorry Smookster, couldn't resist:)
 
2003-06-28 08:13:18 PM  
Ender_rpm:
Good parents who take thier kid to se a public beheading, which scares the crap outa the little carpet monkey so they never want to commit the crimes in the first place.


Are you joking?... children don't have the capacity to really understand how a consequence is a result of an action, especially small children. Taking a child to a beheading would do nothing but terrify them for no reason. It doesn't make them say "Man, I'm never going to steal a car."

You all are really forgetting the role of prisons in western society anyways. They are not so much intended to punish the criminal but to protect the public and try to rehabilitate the person committing the crime...
 
2003-06-28 08:13:29 PM  
Ender,

Good parents who take thier kid to se a public beheading, which scares the crap outa the little carpet monkey so they never want to commit the crimes in the first place.

I was thinking of parents that lead by example, and instill confidence in their kids.

But, I'm sure your method would make for some great episodes of Jenny Jones:

"My 14 year old daughter picks up men at beheadings"

Either way works :)
 
2003-06-28 08:14:47 PM  
RabidWeasel

I'm sorry I make you sick, there's a plastic bag by me that you can use to vomit in... you're done? Okay.

Read my response to Korag:

Korag:

You did invoke Godwin's law. There are extremes to everything, and you brought one up. When I made the comment of thats how their culture is, and we shouldn't intrude, I meant to express that we shouldn't turn every country int he world into a democracy, because they are not fit for it. Their culture would not be able to deal with a democracy, so what they have is what they have. It's their identity that will slowly evolve through time. If they had been slaughtering millions of their own people or others, then obviously its different, so your argument is irrelevant.


I hope that answers your question... if you want more.. I believe in a Form of Justice. I'm sorry you have a misinterpreted view of my beliefs.
 
2003-06-28 08:14:59 PM  
RabidWeasel is right... even France in what, the 1600s? (When was the Edict of Nantes proclaimed?) allowed some public profession of non-Catholic religious beliefs. I mean, Saudi Arabia doesn't even have that. (Yeah, I know Louis XIV revoked it later.)
 
2003-06-28 08:16:41 PM  
Smooky, shut the fark up and answer the question you jackanape. I don't give a goddamn about Goodwin's law. So let's just anrrow it down to the Sudan. Is it ok for Muslim parents, particularly those in Africa, to mutiliate the sex organs of their daughters.

And remember, that is the local culture. So, is it or ain't it, farkhead?
 
2003-06-28 08:17:32 PM  
bobbette- Please refer to earlier posts in which I stated my belief in the FAILURE of the rehabilitation method of dealing with crime. And please, give the knee biters soem respect here: they understand perfectly well the idea of consequences. The philosophy behind them watching the execution is to burn it in a traumatic way into thier psyche, so that they never forget the terror of it. As they mature, and begin to rationalize the social system, it will not need to be reenforced that there are dire consequences to thier actions. Ever take a kid to the beach after they watched "Jaws" for the first time?
 
2003-06-28 08:18:27 PM  
I doubt we're even close, but what's the record for Godwins on one of these threads??
 
2003-06-28 08:20:39 PM  
Criminy.. RabidWeasel..

I give i have to dumb it down for you even more. I was implying that democracy would not work in that country based on their culture. that is why I reposted my response, I figured you would be able to pick it out instead of reading the first sentence and begin furiously pounding on your keyboard. Stop being an asshat for once and read it. And don't call me a jackanape. You need to take your anger pills or jerk off or something man. Geez.
 
2003-06-28 08:21:29 PM  
I guess.. I meant to say I guess.
 
2003-06-28 08:21:51 PM  
bobette,

They are not so much intended to punish the criminal but to protect the public and try to rehabilitate the person committing the crime...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Seriously, thanks for the laugh.

Locking a person in a cage and subjecting them to abuses the likes of which I can't imagine is not the best way to rehabilitate someone.

As for protecting the public, bah. What of the husband who finds his wife in bed with another man and shoots both of them? Any reasonable person can tell you that this man poses no danger to society. He was a person just as normal as you or I who was pushed over the edge. He's not going to be going out killing people on a daily basis.

What of the people in jail for possession of drugs. How is this protecting the public? Are they afraid some stoner is going to cause a shortage in the Cheeto supply and bring about nationwide famine?
 
2003-06-28 08:23:20 PM  
SchlingFo, fortunately, I don't live in America. I'm not touching your farked up justice system with a 10 foot pole. Talk to John Ashcroft if you have problems.
 
2003-06-28 08:23:21 PM  
"When I made the comment of thats how their culture is, and we shouldn't intrude, I meant to express that we shouldn't turn every country int he world into a democracy, because they are not fit for it. Their culture would not be able to deal with a democracy, so what they have is what they have. It's their identity that will slowly evolve through time."

The point is, Smookiekins, is that their culture is NOT evolving. It's the same old backward, medeival, mysoginistic culture it's always been. The only dif is that they now have the ability to buy 64" plasma screen TVs and race horses. Good thing Mohammad (Piss Be All Over Him) didn't show up around Neanderthal times, or there would be mullahs to this day screaming about the Unislamic practice of walking erect. and making fire.

What kind of a culture forces women to have their genitals sliced off (come on guys. You know how painful it feels just to think about your own weenis getting bumped against. Think about having it sliced off with a razor)? No wonder the aliens are trying to keep Earthlings from finding out they exist.

I know plenty of friends who had the miserable tale to tell about being a non-muslim working in Sado Arabia. Surrrrre. They've outlawed slavery (kinda). Only thing they changed was that they dont BUY the slaves, they just rent them instead.

Sado Arabia is not a nation. It's a nuthouse. Till they stop financing terrosts groups and get truly serious, I won't give them (or you) the tiniest amount of slack.
 
2003-06-28 08:23:23 PM  
Seriously, it's saturday night. Save this for monday. Are you really expecting to convince anyone on your views? Anyone? Ender and Smooky have the right idea. Don't be poopheads and go get a beer.
 
2003-06-28 08:24:02 PM  
Smooky and mr. virally infested Mustilidae (look it up)

We Americans enshrine democracy as a universal human right because we believe it is the gift of the Creator to humanity. As such, we hold that it is a universal value that ALL humanity is entitled to, regardless of cultural background. Some peoples may not be ready for the chaos democratic debate brings to society, holding as they do to rules that allowed thier anscestors to survive and make a culture. Thier cultural propensity towards Democracy makes no difference, however, if you hold it as a Divinely engendered right to individuals. Its a Deist belief, like it or not.
 
2003-06-28 08:25:39 PM  
Smooky, you farkhead, these are your own words,

"It seems it all boils down to that that is how their culture is, and I guess we shouldn't impose ours on theirs and vice versa. Some countries believe that their culture is the utmost important thing to them."

So, is Sharia law ok with you, becuase that's what the Saudi ruling family has decreed, by fiat, to be the law of the land? Because, in your own words, we have no right to impose of judge them by our own standards (which do not include beheading, dismembering and stoning as acceptable punishments).

Stop being a weasel. Answer the farking question.
 
2003-06-28 08:26:14 PM  
Kargie-poo, What do you mean their culture is not evolving? You mean instant results? That doesn't happen, look how long it took to outlaw slavery in our country. They are evolving. People and cultures ALWAYS evolve. Some are slower than others. But we are never in a state of constant.
 
2003-06-28 08:26:31 PM  
A steaming pile of feces if I've ever seen one.

Shifting the focus to another party, and not even a current one:

Many people around the world look at the Wests human rights protestations and say: "Too little! Too late!"

Quoting a celebrated man with far greater ideals who would agree with very little else you have to offer (trying to take the moral high ground?):

They share Ghandis sentiments. When asked about Western civilization he said: "It would be a good idea."

Claiming that certain human rights declared by others are universal, whereas some other human rights declared the same way are not. So obviously everything is arbitrary and this is bullshiat:

Every human being is entitled to freedom, life, dignity, justice, security. Such rights are not subject to dispute. They are the rights of the people of Saudi Arabia just as much as they are the right of people in the West. But when someone says capital punishment is against human rights we move into the realm of legitimate difference. It is a matter of opinion.

What makes this a legitimate difference? How is this more of an opinion than the previous items on the list?

Hmm, again with a universal? And taking the moral high ground again:

Many societies, which have a high personal moral code, cannot accept free sex as a human right.

So let's see, killing can be ethical, but having sex freely is not... where is the love of life in that?

Hypocrites and narrow minded ideologues should have their own special place in hell.
 
2003-06-28 08:27:22 PM  
RabidWeasel,

So I guess it's ok for Germans to gas Jews, since that's what they used to like to do there? So I guess it's ok that parents in the Sudan cut off their daughter's clitoris, since that's part of their culture? So I guess it's ok to throw widows onto the funeral pyres of their deceased husbands, since they do that in India?

1) No, it wasn't ok for the Germans to gas Jew because the Jews didn't consent to it.

2) Yes, it's alright for parents to cut off their daughter's clits. In the majority of the cultures, it's done once the daughter reaches the age of majority. The daughter is capable of consenting to it. If the daughter is physically forced to do it, that would be wrong, but that is the exception, rather than the norm.

3) If the widows consent to being thrown on the pyre, then it's fine. However, I have no idea what the circumstances surrounding this are. If it turns out that the widows aren't consenting, then it's wrong.
 
2003-06-28 08:28:04 PM  
What kind of a culture forces women to have their genitals sliced off (come on guys. You know how painful it feels just to think about your own weenis getting bumped against. Think about having it sliced off with a razor)? No wonder the aliens are trying to keep Earthlings from finding out they exist.

As much as I agree with you that Saudi Arabia's system is one for nutjobs, Korag, they do not force women to have their genitals sliced off there. That's mainly in Northern Africa, and it's a custom that's been around for a long time, farkers. I'm sure there is FGM existing in Saudi Arabia, but it happen in the United States too.
 
2003-06-28 08:31:45 PM  
SchlingFo, when India openly used the sati system, a woman who did not throw herself on the pyre became a social outcast. Most times the woman was drugged before throwing herself on the pyre. Those that hesitated or had cold feet were "encouraged" (read pushed) in many cases. It was really a system designed to get rid of widows since they were not permitted to remarry and became a burden on their family. Also there was the risk they'd sleep with someone while unmarried since women are such sex fiends and all.

RabidWeasel, Does it really matter what Smooky thinks? Is it going to shorten or lengthen your life any? Calm yourself, take a deep breath, relax. Go enjoy your weekend. You shouldn't get so worked up, it's not healthy. I feel it must be restated, don't be a poophead
 
2003-06-28 08:32:19 PM  
RabidWeasel, you goddamned moron, your question is irrelevant because I never mentioned MORALITY, IT WAS TO IMPLY THAT UNDER THEIR CULTURE DEMOCRACY WOULDN'T WORK FOR THEM. Why is that so hard to farking understand, I tried to be nice. I really really tried. I never said the word judge. READ THE QUOTE AGAIN:

"It seems it all boils down to that that is how their culture is, and I guess we shouldn't impose ours(meaning culture) on theirs and vice versa. Some countries believe that their culture is the utmost important thing to them."


In what way do you come up with your stupid ass idea that I think something is okay or not. Please tell me. Please tell me when I said anything like that was okay. I was implying DEMOCRACY. Christ, Ender was right about letting the rabble in, look at the morons I have to deal with.

I don't see how you come up with your ideas and assumptions when all I was saying is that democracy and their culture couldn't co-exist. Democracy and a lot of cultures can't co-exist. Some societies don't have the education level for it, others have other problems. Why don't you try counting to 10 and reading a post for once.. then try to comprehend it?
 
2003-06-28 08:32:41 PM  
2) Yes, it's alright for parents to cut off their daughter's clits. In the majority of the cultures, it's done once the daughter reaches the age of majority. The daughter is capable of consenting to it. If the daughter is physically forced to do it, that would be wrong, but that is the exception, rather than the norm.

ARE YOU farkING KIDDING ME???
WOMEN DO NOT CONSENT TO FGM.

Do you have ANY idea about female genital mutilation as a practice at all? It's usually done when a girl is approaching menarche, and they're told that it's done to "purify" them for their future husbands and make them desireable. Usually, the girls are not told ANYTHING about what is done and how miserable they will be for the rest of their lives because of it. They're told it hurts a tiny bit and then it goes away - not that it's incredibly agonizing, frequently done with insterile instruments by a village elder, and that their tissues are sewn up so completely that they have to break through the flesh to even urinate. On top of that, they have to cut it all open again when the women get pregnant, and on top of THAT, many girls wind up with horrible infections and bleed to death. It is NOT alright, and it is NOT done with informed consent of the poor 12 year olds who have to endure it.
 
2003-06-28 08:33:47 PM  
And it is not just the clit that is cut off with female genital mutilation honey... you need to get informed and fast.
 
2003-06-28 08:34:58 PM  
So please, tell me how I got morality from culture, and then call me a bunch of names and tell me what i'm thinking. I swear I don't understand how people got the idea that i'm apologizing for any country's moral behavior.
 
2003-06-28 08:37:14 PM  
The urge to exact violent, even lethal, retribution upon whoever has wronged you is as natural as jerking off, or reindeer shiat steaming on the Alaskan tundra.

I guess we're not about natural. I guess we're about crazy ass laws and unintuitive philosophies which proclaim, "Everything you feel is wrong!"

This begs the question, "Why do we keep coming up with these philosophies?"

I think the answer is, "Pride."

We think we are more than what we are. After all, we're made in God's image. Advanced aliens from space are just like us, only uglier and lacking that special capacity for hope and optimism that makes humans so neat and swell.

/I complain, but really I like all of the neat things humans have done, most of which were possible because of our weird ass philosophies.
 
2003-06-28 08:38:42 PM  
Well, considering human rights are a moral issue and not a cultural one....

Morality and culture often evolve off one another. They are not two seperate entities.
 
2003-06-28 08:39:13 PM  
This is why American/Western "lack" of culture isn't such a bad thing. It's not that we lack a culture so much as we aren't lugging around thousands of years of baggage, millenia of fear, paranoia, superstition and racist/sexist/xenophobic bullshiat. For the most part, the more culturally isolated and "rich" an area is, the more violent and miserable people are. It's NOT just Saudi Arabia. Look at large chunks of Africa, South America and eastern Europe. Culture can be positive, but it can also represent classism, sexism, tribal warfare, body/genital mutilation, guilt and shame over natural processes, and general psychological fark-uppage.
Enough of the moral relativism already. Cutting people's body parts off, be it head, hand or clitoris, is NOT acceptable.
 
2003-06-28 08:39:55 PM  
Umm... with FGM they lop off the whole thing, don't they? Like, anything that sticks out of the body? NOT something I see many young women giving INFORMED consent. Now you can argue that their culture makes it neccessary, yes, but it really doesn't. Its a measure of religious devotion, and in large part an indicator of social status, to have a daughter go through this procedure. Girls that do not undergo FGM still get married, they just don't bring as high a bride price, cuz they may run around. But they undergo it "voluntarily" because to do ther wise is to bring shame on thier families, and they may then be forced inot suicide or being married to a low status man. Its an icky custom that needs to stop, just like foot binding, widow burning, and donkey raping.
 
2003-06-28 08:40:33 PM  
Scrotar, so in that sense... when I see a really hot girl in the street and get an erection I should just start having sex with her? It's not that we're not about natural, we're just not about primal behavior.
 
2003-06-28 08:40:40 PM  
One last slap across Smookie's nutsack and I'm done.

"Kargie-poo, What do you mean their culture is not evolving? You mean instant results? That doesn't happen, look how long it took to outlaw slavery in our country. They are evolving. People and cultures ALWAYS evolve. Some are slower than others. But we are never in a state of constant."

Okay, let's compare, shall we?

The 400's:

Europe: tribes of primitives

Middle East: tribes of primitives

The 21st Century:

Europe: Nuclear capability. Spaceflight capability. Polio eradicated. Early cloning technology. Intergration laws. "The Four Freedoms". Representative government. Slavery abolished in the 1860's.

Middle East: Forces women to wear stifling hot black burquas in 120+ degree heat. Cuts off the genitals of their women. Demands the death for Salman Rushdie. Sneers at the even the most basic concepts of dignity for others. Slavery was allowed all the way up until the 1920's, and that's only when the British Empire forced them to.

Oh, and let's not forget that CHARMING way they use their BARE HANDS to wipe their asses with (no Charmin mentioned in the Quran, don'cha know).

Face it, Smooks. Your towelhead buddies SUCK! They belong in a zoo with all the other poo-flinging primates.
 
2003-06-28 08:43:58 PM  
SarcasticFarkette,

If the women are drugged or pushed, then they're not giving consent, and that's farked up.

bobette,

Do you have ANY idea about female genital mutilation as a practice at all?

Yes, we studied it in great detail, to include videos of the practice, in a human sexuality class. It's painful, certainly. It's unsterile, yes.

But, the fact remains that, in their culture, these girls have reached the age of majority. We have plenty of people here who get their clits pierced once they reach the age of majority. Most of them are probably clueless as to how much nerve damage can be done and what an infection can do to them. However, we allow it because, as uninformed as they may be, they're adults.

This is the same in these cultures. The girls have reached the age of adulthood. They are given a choice. Actually, the biggest proponents of the circucision are the women, themselves. In the documentaries we watched, some human rights group had sent people trying to explain to these cultures why it was harmful. The men seemed pretty indifferent either way. They said some stupid shiat like, "The clit gets in the way during sex", but they really didn't have much to say.

The women were absolutely rabid in the defense of the practice. It says volumes to me that the ones most strongly advocating it were the ones who had it done to them.
 
2003-06-28 08:44:48 PM  
Korag_The_Nasty
Your last post revealed the true bigot within. I am sorry to inform you, but you need to be culled from the herd. You have obviously never been outside of whatever cess pool you call home, and apparently deserve no better place. May God have mercy on your soul.
 
2003-06-28 08:46:38 PM  
Ender_rpm: it's not a religious thing. It's a societal thing; it existed before Islam. it is mentioned in the Koran, but not in a way that is like "Chop of your girl's genitals".

in many societies a woman is not considered "pure" if she hasn't been cut up. Women who are not mutilated cannot get married; they are outcasts.

i'm not sure how much detail i can go into on the fark boards, so i'm going to link to this site which has some interesting information.
 
2003-06-28 08:46:47 PM  
Towelhead buddies?

Sigh... Ender, where do you want to continue this discussion? I apologize, you were right.

You want to talk about evolution? 2003 years after Christ died, we still have people calling others towelheads and claiming they belong in a zoo with all the other poo-flinging primates. Heh. Guess you're not as socially evolved as you think you are.

But like I said, if you believe that any one group is ever in a state of constant behavior, then you're pretty wrong. They have electricity, they have nuclear capability and more. Like I said, some are slower than others, but progess is always made in one direction or another. Besides, do you live in the middle east? How can you clock social evolution there? Oh yeah, you read newspapers and listen to what Bush preaches to you. OKAY! I don't think you're slapping my nutsack here buddy. And if you are, I don't swing that way, sorry to let you down.
 
2003-06-28 08:46:58 PM  
Smoky - "Scrotar, so in that sense... when I see a really hot girl in the street and get an erection I should just start having sex with her?"

Depends. Is her ass huge, red and swollen?

"It's not that we're not about natural, we're just not about primal behavior."

While company's over, at least.
 
2003-06-28 08:47:39 PM  
bobette,

And it is not just the clit that is cut off with female genital mutilation honey... you need to get informed and fast.

That varies among cultures. Most cultures simply cut off the clit, hence the term "Female circumcision", while some cultures go so far as to cut off the lips and sew the girl shut until she gets married.

Regardless, the girls are of the age of majority, and they give their consent.
 
2003-06-28 08:48:13 PM  
bobbette
I never mentioned it as a Islamic thing. I agree that it is a practice that pre-dates Islam, and I agree it needs to stop. Again, please read my post, then reply. Thnkyouveddymuch ;)
 
2003-06-28 08:48:24 PM  
SchlingFo: IMO it's an extreme version of the reason that many circumsized men have it done to their sons. Subconciously I think there's a sense of "Why should this new generation have it any better than we did?"
Misery loves company.
 
2003-06-28 08:50:18 PM  
Korag,

Jews won't donate organs when they die. However, we know that in today's society, many lives can be saved, sight saved, etc. from people donating organs.

Do you consider them to be "poo-flinging primates" simply because they adhere to their religion and, in doing so, go in the face of "progress"??
 
2003-06-28 08:51:22 PM  
Ender_rpm:
"Your last post revealed the true bigot within. I am sorry to inform you, but you need to be culled from the herd. You have obviously never been outside of whatever cess pool you call home, and apparently deserve no better place. May God have mercy on your soul."

Feel free to dispute ANY of the points I mentioned about the Sado Arabians (which you didn't, I noticed). I've done the homework.

-- Do they or do they not force women to wear burquas?

-- Do they or do they not forced women to endure having their genitals cut off?

-- Is there is is there not a demand for the death of Salman Rushdie?

-- When was slavery abolished in the Middle East? Who forced them to abolish it?

-- Bare hands to wipe their asses (i'll even add that they even have extremely-detailed instructions on how to wipe, BTW). True or not true?

Well, ball's in your cort fellah. Debunk or help yourself to a nice tall thermos filled with STFU.

It's not bigotry if the facts are there.
 
2003-06-28 08:51:44 PM  
So... giving into the urge of lust isn't natural, but killing someone after they kill someone else is? Explain.
 
2003-06-28 08:52:01 PM  
Schling - A girl of 12 has not reached the age of majority. You are wrong. So sorry.

Smooky - Nice try at weaseling out of your own statement. I've got you pegged now. You are utterly reprehensible, and if I had my way you'd be on a plane for a one-way trip to Saudi Arabia by now.

Ender - Really? I think Korag is pretty close to on the mark, in his last statement. I want you to name one, just one, technological or artistic accomplishment to come out of the Arab world in the last 200 years.

Guess what? You can't. The extremist forms of Islam practiced by Saudi Arabia and it's neighbors is a festering boil on the face of the Earth. The sooner it's lanced, the sooner the rest of the western world can go back to fostering civilization.
 
2003-06-28 08:52:03 PM  
Being Indian, one of the thing that pisses me off the most is the blatant and widespread misspelling of Gandhi as Ghandi. I would think a farking embassy would know better.

How would Linclon, Klinton, Trumean sound huh?
 
2003-06-28 08:52:06 PM  
Smookyfufu
Hee hee, told you so;) Haven't you figured out by now I'm always right:) (Its a Joke people, relax) BTW: Are you even old enough to buy me a beer? Did you have a birthday since our last duel?
 
2003-06-28 08:52:26 PM  
FarkingUptheWrongTree,

I agree with you that tradition probably has everything to do with it. I don't know if it's them trying to bring their daughters down (at least I hope not).

I only know that I'm a HUGE proponent of adults taking responsibility for their own actions. I can't think of anything I don't support, as far as activities between consenting adults.
 
2003-06-28 08:52:59 PM  
is the "age of majority" 11? 12? it's being done younger and younger; less of an initiation rite into adulthood as it used to be, but to get it done before the girl figures out what the clit could be used for.

women who have had it done want it to continue to be done because it is the custom and because they fear that their daughters will be considered freaks and outcasts; the unclean. also, they've never had clitorises themselves, so how are they to know what they're missing out on, even?

the custom of female genital mutilation is barbaric and horrible. you can't compare it to an 18 year old going down and getting her clit pierced (and before a girl puts metal through there, she's going to find out what the potential side effects are, believe me). one is a choice; the other is thousands of years of custom being pushed on little girls who are not told what is going to happen to them, and then have their genitals - and their sexuality - carved off with bits of rusty metal or glass.
 
2003-06-28 08:54:32 PM  
Smooky,

Schling - A girl of 12 has not reached the age of majority. You are wrong. So sorry.

In our culture (the U.S.), no, a 12 year old isn't of the age of majority. In most of the cultures that practice female circumcision, yes, a 12 year old is of the age of majority.

Different cultures and different countries have different ages of majority.
 
2003-06-28 08:54:37 PM  
Oh well, at least I got RabidWeasel to stop trolling, but Korag comes in his stead...
 
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