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(BBC)   Scottish Gaelic in danger of dying out as most Scots prefer to be incomprehensible in English   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 58
    More: Sad, Gaelic, Royal Society, English  
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2124 clicks; posted to Geek » on 01 Nov 2010 at 4:00 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-10-31 11:15:01 PM
That's Scottish Gaelic to you, subby. Last I checked, Manx Gaelic and Cornish are extinct, while Welsh, Irish Gaelic and Breton are all doing fine. Or least aren't in any immediate danger of extinction.

Nor is Scottish Gaelic, really. They just want the kind of money Welsh has been getting since the 60's.
 
2010-10-31 11:25:58 PM
Is there a sizeable population of kids who grow up speaking only Scottish Gaelic at home, only to start English at school?
 
2010-10-31 11:46:51 PM
itazurakko: Is there a sizeable population of kids who grow up speaking only Scottish Gaelic at home, only to start English at school?

When I was in Scotland near Inverness I heard of people who spoke Gaelic natively and later learned English but I never met any myself. In fact, I never met anyone who could even speak Gaelic at all, I think they're mostly in the NW of the country. They do have BBC Alba, though, which is in Gaelic.
 
2010-10-31 11:49:44 PM
www.neilpeterson.com

Obligatory

/yes I know it's Welsh but still fitting
 
2010-10-31 11:56:59 PM
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
 
2010-11-01 01:05:49 AM
t3.gstatic.com
 
2010-11-01 04:20:04 AM
Montgomery Scott was Scottish, and enjoyed a bit of Scotch.

www.zachbellshow.com
 
2010-11-01 05:08:13 AM
The problem with Gaelic is that when you learn it you realize that gay-lik means language of gays.
/Fact that your national hero was Scottish pedophile doesn't help
//Link (new window)
 
2010-11-01 05:26:43 AM
/Fact that your national hero was Scottish pedophile doesn't help

Billy Connolly did what?
 
2010-11-01 05:34:07 AM
Scaetta Gael'c i' dage oo daein aught a' moost Scaets drootha tae be aencapre'sive in Aegloosh.

/Fixed for tha bonnie wee subbae.
//Whatever, Scotsmen, you know it's accurate.
 
2010-11-01 05:58:16 AM
LewDux: The problem with Gaelic is that when you learn it you realize that gay-lik means language of gays.
/Fact that your national hero was Scottish pedophile doesn't help
//Link (new window)


What's this about gay licks?
 
2010-11-01 06:58:05 AM
Will you meet anyone who can only speak Scots Gaelic? No. They all speak English.

Which doesn't mean that people shouldn't learn it as a hobby language any less than people shouldn't learn Klingon or old English. But putting it on road signs is pretty absurd.
 
2010-11-01 07:20:31 AM
Eleven! Eleven! Eleven! Eleven!
 
2010-11-01 08:03:52 AM
Trebek's mom in Scottish Gaelic.
youtomb.mit.edu
What is 'jizzgargler'?
 
2010-11-01 08:19:32 AM
whistleridge: That's Scottish Gaelic to you, subby. Last I checked, Manx Gaelic and Cornish are extinct, while Welsh, Irish Gaelic and Breton are all doing fine. Or least aren't in any immediate danger of extinction.

Nor is Scottish Gaelic, really. They just want the kind of money Welsh has been getting since the 60's.


The only reason Welsh gets as much money as it does is because the UK pays out on the basis of consonants.
 
2010-11-01 08:30:17 AM
"Eleven!" (new window)
 
2010-11-01 08:30:57 AM
farkeruk: Will you meet anyone who can only speak Scots Gaelic? No. They all speak English.

Which doesn't mean that people shouldn't learn it as a hobby language any less than people shouldn't learn Klingon or old English. But putting it on road signs is pretty absurd.


I disagree. The language is part of the culture and history of the Scots and should be kept alive. The reason why they speak English? Because they were brutally taken over, numerous times, by the Brits and were often forbidden to speak their language.

There's been some success of this with Irish Gaelic in Ireland. Let's do the same for Scottish Gaelic.
 
2010-11-01 08:47:36 AM
shivashakti: farkeruk: Will you meet anyone who can only speak Scots Gaelic? No. They all speak English.

Which doesn't mean that people shouldn't learn it as a hobby language any less than people shouldn't learn Klingon or old English. But putting it on road signs is pretty absurd.

I disagree. The language is part of the culture and history of the Scots and should be kept alive. The reason why they speak English? Because they were brutally taken over, numerous times, by the Brits and were often forbidden to speak their language.

There's been some success of this with Irish Gaelic in Ireland. Let's do the same for Scottish Gaelic.


Brutally schmutally. It's declining because English is the only language they need. I do agree with you that it'd be nice to retain the languages because they are part of culture and history and therefore significant. It's difficult, though, because aside from the cultural and historical aspect it has no raison d'être. I don't think that reason is enough to convince enough people to take it up. Oh, and I suppose there's a national pride element there, that'll get a few more joining up.
 
2010-11-01 09:05:14 AM
It is a braw bricht, Moon licht nicht here, so I am getting a kick.

/also getting an Irn Bru
//Just a wee deoch an doris afore ye gang awa
///yer a'richt, ye ken.
 
2010-11-01 09:13:53 AM
When we were in Dublin in March, the last night we turned on the television. And there was a Gaelic version of Ted Mack's Amateur Hour/Ireland's Got Talent. Every damn act either read poetry or danced that damned stiff backed step dance.

So, no Gaelic isn't doing well in Ireland either. It's a novelty/hobby/nostalgia movement.
 
2010-11-01 09:15:48 AM
I'd learn it but Rosetta Stone doesn't have it.
 
2010-11-01 09:31:22 AM
I wonder why?

/Samhain = sah-win
 
2010-11-01 09:43:07 AM
shivashakti: farkeruk: Will you meet anyone who can only speak Scots Gaelic? No. They all speak English.

Which doesn't mean that people shouldn't learn it as a hobby language any less than people shouldn't learn Klingon or old English. But putting it on road signs is pretty absurd.

I disagree. The language is part of the culture and history of the Scots and should be kept alive. The reason why they speak English? Because they were brutally taken over, numerous times, by the Brits and were often forbidden to speak their language.

There's been some success of this with Irish Gaelic in Ireland. Let's do the same for Scottish Gaelic.


scrapetv.com

I hate being Scottish. We're the lowest of the f*cking low, the scum of the earth, the most wretched, servile, miserable, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some people hate the English, but I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are colonized by wankers. We can't even pick a decent culture to be colonized by. We are ruled by effete arseholes. It's a sh*te state of affairs and all the fresh air in the world will not make any f*cking difference.
 
2010-11-01 09:44:17 AM
shivashakti: I disagree. The language is part of the culture and history of the Scots and should be kept alive. The reason why they speak English? Because they were brutally taken over, numerous times, by the Brits and were often forbidden to speak their language.

Yes, and the generations that had to go through that suffered, but we now have an outcome where people both sides of the border can communicate effectively, so teaching people in Scotland anything else is frankly redundant. But I don't have a problem with them wanting to learn it as a hobby any more than people wanting to learn Esperanto or Elvish.
 
2010-11-01 09:46:25 AM
yakmans_dad: So, no Gaelic isn't doing well in Ireland either. It's a novelty/hobby/nostalgia movement.

Untrue. I have a great interest in Irish, I'll read it wherever possible, talk in it sometimes (cupla focail) and a lot of people are like me - becoming more and more interested in Irish.

The TV station you were watching is a very popular Irish language channel called TG4, pretty much everything they show is in Irish and it's the 8th most popular station in the country.

My brother-in-law comes from a Gaelteacht area (of which there are many in Ireland), his entire family speak Irish when they are at home as do most of his neighbours and most of the other 100,000 people who live in Gaeltachts in Ireland.

Irish is more popular now than it has been in decades, it's anything but a novelty. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions on its popularity based upon your short holiday in Dublin. Take a trip to the west of Ireland and chat with the locals, you'll see Irish is alive and well.
 
2010-11-01 09:48:32 AM
JavanDane: I wonder why?

/Samhain = sah-win


It would be pronounced sow (female pig 'sow')-in
 
2010-11-01 10:00:31 AM
Good to see the Armchair English Imperialist League is out in force, but I'm kinda sad not to have seen anyone claim there's no such thing as Scotland or Scottish history yet. Come on guys, let that condescension really shine!

Jackpot777: Sure we're scum. That's why we kicked your asses out of North America; because we're scum. That's why all the greatest "British" philosophers, economists, and scientists were Scots; because we're scum. That's why public education and public libraries were invented in Scotland; because we're scum.
 
2010-11-01 10:04:02 AM
farkeruk: Will you meet anyone who can only speak Scots Gaelic? No. They all speak English.

I shared a flat with 4 Gaelic speakers once; they all came from Stornoway (Isle of Lewis). Was weird hearing them babble away in Gaelic, then every now and then you'd hear a few English words like "ironing board" thrown in because they hadn't invented ironing boards back in the time when Gaelic was relevant.
 
2010-11-01 10:04:09 AM
Heron: Jackpot777: Sure we're scum. That's why we kicked your asses out of North America; because we're scum. That's why all the greatest "British" philosophers, economists, and scientists were Scots; because we're scum. That's why public education and public libraries were invented in Scotland; because we're scum.

Someone hasn't seen Trainspotting. Shame. It's a really good movie.
 
2010-11-01 10:20:17 AM
Heron: Good to see the Armchair English Imperialist League is out in force, but I'm kinda sad not to have seen anyone claim there's no such thing as Scotland or Scottish history yet. Come on guys, let that condescension really shine!

Jackpot777: Sure we're scum. That's why we kicked your asses out of North America; because we're scum. That's why all the greatest "British" philosophers, economists, and scientists were Scots; because we're scum. That's why public education and public libraries were invented in Scotland; because we're scum.


You live in Texas. You have bigger things to be embarrassed about.

Also, as pointed out, you've never seen Trainspotting. Which is indeed pretty sad.
 
2010-11-01 10:29:09 AM
shivashakti:
I disagree. The language is part of the culture and history of the Scots and should be kept alive. The reason why they speak English? Because they were brutally taken over, numerous times, by the Brits and were often forbidden to speak their language.

There's been some success of this with Irish Gaelic in Ireland. Let's do the same for Scottish Gaelic.


The Gaelic language was introduced to Scotland when the Irish kingdoms brutally invaded around the 4th century, and didn't actually achieve its current form (and brutally displace Cumbrish, Pictish, and Old English) in Scotland until the 12th century, basically concurrent with the bloody inter-earldom violence that first formed the place into a country in any meaningful sense.

The history of Scottish-English relations is actually relatively civil and bloodless for most of its span, the kingdom paid ceremonial tribute to the Norman kingdoms and actively invited Norman nobles in almost from the get-go (the 1100s) meaning that the family lines and economics have been intertwined politically basically since modern England has existed, too. Both kingdoms have their roots in the Norman invasion, which mixed everyone together right good.

There has been internal contention and even outright factional warfare, sure, but to call English-Scottish relations "brutal conquests" at any point is a rather laughable exaggeration. Even during the periods where they were separate countries, the two blended together so much that they were basically the same country.

Contrast to Ireland. Those guys were regarded as a separate country and a separate race, and were treated as such (i.e. horribly). Scots and the English basically regarded each other as cousins (and, often, were literally cousins) and treated each other as such. Though, I guess, in the context of island history, being cousins didn't really spare you from murdering much, within your own borders or across them.

//Full disclosure: had to use Wikipedia for some details, been a bit since I studied that subset of history much.
 
2010-11-01 10:33:24 AM
shivashakti: The reason why they speak English? Because they were brutally taken over, numerous times, by the Brits and were often forbidden to speak their language.

You mean taken over by the Saxons/Normans. The Scots are more Brit than "the Brits".
 
2010-11-01 10:39:48 AM
WhyteRaven74: Obligatory

/yes I know it's Welsh but still fitting


Is that the verbal equivalent of smashing keys on your keyboard?
 
2010-11-01 10:55:14 AM
This makes me sad. I tried to learn a little Scottish Gaelic for when I was going to school in Scotland. I had been told they only speak it in the northern parts like Skye and as far as the Orkneys. I lived there for 6 months and never once found a person who could speak it.
 
2010-11-01 11:02:13 AM
Harry_Seldon: Montgomery Scott was Scottish, and enjoyed a bit of Scotch.

When I saw him at Gen Con years back I was _amazed_ how many people - native Scots included - who didn't know he wasn't actually Scottish. When he first started speaking you could hear the murmur through the crowd. You'd think Gen Con attendees would have a bit of geek cred, but apparently not enough.

/would hate to see how they would have reacted to Walter Koenig
//CSB
 
2010-11-01 12:11:22 PM
taliesinwi: Harry_Seldon: Montgomery Scott was Scottish, and enjoyed a bit of Scotch.

When I saw him at Gen Con years back I was _amazed_ how many people - native Scots included - who didn't know he wasn't actually Scottish. When he first started speaking you could hear the murmur through the crowd. You'd think Gen Con attendees would have a bit of geek cred, but apparently not enough.

/would hate to see how they would have reacted to Walter Koenig
//CSB


i1.fc-img.com

Well he doubles as an Arab occasionally.

/accent wasn't even disguised in the movie
 
2010-11-01 12:14:38 PM
Snapper Carr: Heron: Jackpot777: Sure we're scum. That's why we kicked your asses out of North America; because we're scum. That's why all the greatest "British" philosophers, economists, and scientists were Scots; because we're scum. That's why public education and public libraries were invented in Scotland; because we're scum.

Someone hasn't seen Trainspotting. Shame. It's a really good movie.


You know who else has spotting after pulling a train? Subby's mom.
 
2010-11-01 12:22:58 PM
shivashakti: I disagree. The language is part of the culture and history of the Scots and should be kept alive.

I'm a canadian with scottish parents. Fark Gaelic, fark past cultures in general, holding onto the past just gives idiots a justification to feel pride in something they never earned or attained.

/all of your cultures are worthless, there is only zuul
//history is more important that tribalism
 
2010-11-01 12:29:11 PM
Yaxe: taliesinwi: Harry_Seldon: Montgomery Scott was Scottish, and enjoyed a bit of Scotch.

When I saw him at Gen Con years back I was _amazed_ how many people - native Scots included - who didn't know he wasn't actually Scottish. When he first started speaking you could hear the murmur through the crowd. You'd think Gen Con attendees would have a bit of geek cred, but apparently not enough.

/would hate to see how they would have reacted to Walter Koenig
//CSB



Well he doubles as an Arab occasionally.

/accent wasn't even disguised in the movie


Why did you include a picture of Sean Connery when I was talking about James Doohan? :)
 
2010-11-01 01:15:49 PM
whistleridge: That's Scottish Gaelic to you, subby. Last I checked, Manx Gaelic and Cornish are extinct, while Welsh, Irish Gaelic and Breton are all doing fine. Or least aren't in any immediate danger of extinction.

I didn't think Breton was doing well at all. My French roommate lived near Brittany and never heard anyone speak it.
 
2010-11-01 01:16:34 PM
I watched a movie in Scottish Gaelic once. It is a beautiful language. Like many languages spoken in windy, out of the way places, it was soft and melliflous. French word which captures this: douceâtre. Any language can be beautiful in the right mouth, but some are more musical and pleasant than others.

Gaelic is distinct from Scots English entirely. If you can make out ANY of the words, it's probably Broad Scot, the lowland dialect of Eastern Scotland, Edinburgh and Glasgow. That's the accent you hear done so well in Mrs. Doubtfire, and it's also the rougher urban dialect which Billy O'Connelly can do when it suits him.

Highland English is different and sounds a lot more "Scottish" than Lowland English, but less so than overseas Scottish. I always say that the strength of a Scot's accent varies inversely with his distance from Edinburgh.

Most of the native speakers of Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, or Irish Gaelic are rural and distant from population centres: Western Scotland, the Aran Islands, the Hebrides, the Western Highlands, etc.

Gaelic is taught in the schools in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. You can often hear the accents in areas settled by groups of Scots or other ethnic groups a century or more after the settlement. This is true in many remote communities in Eastern Canada and you can find Scandinavian or German influences in areas of the American states settled by Norwegians, etc.

One of my old French profs said that a language is a culture, and when a language dies, a world dies with it.

This is both figuratively and literally true, since there are ways of thinking and saying things that are peculiar to languages, as well as cultural stories, values and ideas that just don't translate.

Languages mostly differ in what they force you to say rather than what they allow you to say, but even so, there are some pretty unusual languages where verbs do things that we do with nouns in European languages, or where entire categories which a philosopher might analyse are incorporated right into the grammar and vocabulary in ways which are radically different from our way of thinking about and analyzing relationships and ideas and things.

In some languages, colors are not adjectives, they are verbs. Things actually red or blue. These people would not be surprised that Madame Bovary's eyes change colour several times in the novel of the same name. Neither am I, for that matter. I've seen those eyes: they are sometimes grey, blue, hazel or green. Flaubert just noticed something rare and beautiful. He didn't slip up and forget what colour his heroine's eyes were.

douceâtre masculin et féminin identiques (orthographe traditionnelle)

Qui est d'une douceur fade.
Un goût douceâtre.
Un sirop douceâtre.
(Par extension) Une façon de parler douceâtre.


Douceâtre: a mild, faded sweetness, like mead, the faded and elegant colours of "weathered" tartans, and the faint scent of dry heather on the breeze.
 
2010-11-01 01:20:03 PM
shivashakti: I disagree. The language is part of the culture and history of the Scots and should be kept alive. The reason why they speak English? Because they were brutally taken over, numerous times, by the Brits and were often forbidden to speak their language.

There's been some success of this with Irish Gaelic in Ireland. Let's do the same for Scottish Gaelic


By this rationale my school should have offered extensive courses in Apache. Why is it relevant that the English dominated the Scots? The Scots dominated and displaced the Celts/Romans who had dominated and displaced the neo-lithic inhabitants who stole the land of the cro-magnons who took the land from the native fauna.

Is there a seven hundred year statute of limitations on being offended by past invasions that renders the Scots victims and not aggressors?

/it's still not as bad as Wales still feeling like a real country
 
2010-11-01 01:27:48 PM
Cormee: JavanDane: I wonder why?

/Samhain = sah-win

It would be pronounced sow (female pig 'sow')-in


sow-win is Irish Gaelic
 
2010-11-01 01:45:00 PM
I don't have a witty comment, but I'm pretty sure i should appear somewhere in this thread.
 
2010-11-01 01:45:32 PM
JavanDane: Cormee: JavanDane: I wonder why?

/Samhain = sah-win

It would be pronounced sow (female pig 'sow')-in

sow-win is Irish Gaelic


As opposed to what?
 
2010-11-01 02:48:19 PM
SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Heron: Good to see the Armchair English Imperialist League is out in force, but I'm kinda sad not to have seen anyone claim there's no such thing as Scotland or Scottish history yet. Come on guys, let that condescension really shine!

Jackpot777: Sure we're scum. That's why we kicked your asses out of North America; because we're scum. That's why all the greatest "British" philosophers, economists, and scientists were Scots; because we're scum. That's why public education and public libraries were invented in Scotland; because we're scum.

You live in Texas. You have bigger things to be embarrassed about.

Also, as pointed out, you've never seen Trainspotting. Which is indeed pretty sad.


No true Scotsman hasn't seen (or read) Trainspotting.
 
2010-11-01 02:57:47 PM
Before my father could go to Cambridge, he had to spend two terms learning Anglo-Saxon.

shivashakti: The reason why they speak English? Because they were brutally taken over, numerous times, by the Brits and were often forbidden to speak their language.
i>


Ouch. Oh dear me.

If I recall correctly, Gaelic was never spoken in Edinburgh?
 
2010-11-01 03:40:26 PM
Doggie McNugget: itazurakko: Is there a sizeable population of kids who grow up speaking only Scottish Gaelic at home, only to start English at school?

When I was in Scotland near Inverness I heard of people who spoke Gaelic natively and later learned English but I never met any myself. In fact, I never met anyone who could even speak Gaelic at all, I think they're mostly in the NW of the country. They do have BBC Alba, though, which is in Gaelic.


Doggie McNugget, thank you SO MUCH for mentioning BBC Alba. Scottish Gaelic is one of the languages I'm going to learn, and it's so important to be able to hear the language spoken in regular conversation. I have it bookmarked now

/am a history major and have had a thing for Scotland ever since reading first historical romance at the age of 10
 
2010-11-01 03:40:54 PM
When I asked a buddy about my learning Irish Gaelic at a local community school, he said it was a really stupid idea and a useless language in the scheme of things. And he'd gone to a Gaelic speaking elementary and high school. Irish Gaelic is way above Welsh, Manx, Cumbrian Gaelic in speakers, too.

Scots Gaelic has long been a country bumpkin's tongue in Scotland, since Inglis was the main language and Robbie Burns personal favorite.
 
2010-11-01 03:49:07 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I could go for some Gaelic bread right about now.
 
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