Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(NPR)   Arizona's "immigration" law that locks people up for failure to produce 'ze papers'? Written and even named by a consortium of private prison contractors in conjunction with R.J. Reynolds., ExxonMobil and the NRA   (npr.org) divider line 309
    More: Sick  
•       •       •

8913 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Oct 2010 at 1:28 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



309 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | » | Last | Show all
 
2010-10-28 04:53:23 PM  
ArmanTanzarian: One word:

High-Speed Mag_Lev Bullet Trains

Mexican workers commute to work in the US & home again to Mexico each day. We charge a fee for the service. Problem solved.


Having just recently driven from Denver to Las Vegas I feel it necessary to bring up the giant farking mountain range that all your western routes seem to just fly over from that hub in northern New Mexico.

/just sayin'
 
2010-10-28 04:54:38 PM  
So, you'll get over it legal citizen.
 
2010-10-28 04:57:17 PM  
Philip Francis Queeg: And what if she is a naturalized US citizen from a state which does not require proof of citizenship for a drivers license? What happens when an Arizona officer pulls her over for doing 57 in a 55 zone?

Then she doesn't need to prove anything, other than that she is a licensed driver.
 
2010-10-28 05:00:51 PM  
The_Six_Fingered_Man: Philip Francis Queeg: So as long as 30 year old white guys aren't bothered, who cares? Let's say instead you are a thirty year old naturalized immigrant from Spain. You are a US citizen, but you are from Illinois, who's ID requirements don't meet Arizona's standards.

No one says that the call will be made from the Police car either. Depending on what information is needed by LESC, it's entirely likely that the process will be more involved than what can be easily handled from the car. And once they take you in, that whole procedure will be followed.

The LESC has a hotline specifically to handle immigration checks. I honestly cannot think of a situation in which a 10 minute check would have to be handled at the station instead of a roadside check. Maybe you can drum up another hypothetical situation in which you manage to hit all the exceptions to the law so we can discuss it.


And since your white, why bother worrying about it anyway. After all you are a REAL American, not like those other folks. We'll just assume that the best case scenario will always be followed for those lesser citizens, and if it isn't, well, again, who really cares?
 
2010-10-28 05:01:36 PM  
Cubicle Jockey: What papers satisfy the requirement?

A valid US passport or a valid foreign passport + visa, presumably.

However, this is the US - so yeah, probably a majority of random white people you stop on the street will NOT have papers, certainly not on their person.

Driver's license is not sufficient. Why? Because it says nothing about your status at all.

Plenty of people are illegally in the US because they OVERSTAYED what was once a legal visa. Happens all the time. Student comes to the US, graduates, doesn't find a job, meanwhile has shacked up with the boyfriend and works under the table (or just doesn't work). Those people could easily have legal driver's licenses or state ID cards, still doesn't make 'em legal.

If the US wants to be "your papers please" then the US needs to make citizens all carry some ID, ideally their passports. Proposing this and watching conservative heads explode would be QUITE entertaining.
 
2010-10-28 05:04:16 PM  
"They even named it. They called it the "Support Our Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act.""

Because the "Crack Down On Illegals To Line Our Pockets" bill just didn't sound quite right.
 
2010-10-28 05:04:21 PM  
give me doughnuts: Then she doesn't need to prove anything, other than that she is a licensed driver.

What if he asks if she's a citizen?

Hell, what if I came up to you and demanded proof that YOU are a citizen (or on legal visa)? You have that in your wallet right now?

Hilarious part is, the legal immigrants are far more likely to be carrying such proof around than are legal citizens.
 
2010-10-28 05:05:50 PM  
give me doughnuts: Philip Francis Queeg: And what if she is a naturalized US citizen from a state which does not require proof of citizenship for a drivers license? What happens when an Arizona officer pulls her over for doing 57 in a 55 zone?

Then she doesn't need to prove anything, other than that she is a licensed driver.


Under this law, if the Officer suspects she is an illegal immigrant, he can demand papers which prove immigration or citizenship status, which not all driver's licenses do.
 
2010-10-28 05:09:28 PM  
brap: I love Arizona it's beautiful the girl keeps hinting that she wants me to move out there with her.

But politically it's tard central.


This.

/Love it here but for all the damn people. :)
 
2010-10-28 05:09:34 PM  
If the US wants to be "your papers please" then the US needs to make citizens all carry some ID, ideally their passports. Proposing this and watching conservative heads explode would be QUITE entertaining.

THIS.
 
2010-10-28 05:21:21 PM  
Ok for all of you supporting this law

I AM ACCUSING YOU ALL OF BEING PEDOPHILES!

If you can't prove you are not you are going to jail!

This is what the law does except it targets immigration status, see the problem?
 
2010-10-28 05:23:39 PM  
So why am I crazy when I think the FDA wants to sicken us and keep us sick? Stories like this turn conspiracy theory into conspiracy fact.

I just saw a disclaimer on a Lunesta commercial last night at the bottom of the screen that said "It is unknown how exactly Lunestra works". So, caution is thrown to the wind when they don't know if something WILL cause harm, but want to ban things like vitamins, which are known to do NO harm.

Wars make the bullet makers money. Diseases that get people sick and keep them just sick enough to still be able to work, make people money. Deliberately obfuscated software makers make money on "upgrades" that were already built-in. And criminalized poor people make for cheap industrial labor, for the guys who make the bullets.
 
2010-10-28 05:26:47 PM  
Azlefty: Ok for all of you supporting this law

I AM ACCUSING YOU ALL OF BEING PEDOPHILES!

If you can't prove you are not you are going to jail!

This is what the law does except it targets immigration status, see the problem?


Really? That's your counterargument? Do you have anything that provides reasonable suspicion that all supporters of this law are pedos? No? Of course not. Shut up, you're not helping your cause.
 
2010-10-28 05:26:47 PM  
LESC only works in the field if the person is:
In the system as a known illegal and has given you an ID with their real name.

Otherwise it's down to the Station for a livescan, which opens up a whole big ol can of Civil rights issues.
 
2010-10-28 05:27:47 PM  
mxwjs
pvd021: I won't be boycotting anything, since nothing I do really involves Arizona.

this kind of stuff humors me. phoenix is the 5th largest city in the nation. i just quickly went and looked up a bunch of stuff that is made in phoenix metro, and sure there is Intel, Microchip, ON semi, Boeing, Lockheed, Honeywell all employ a lot of people. sure you could avoid those companies, but my favorite is " Swift Transportation Co. is now the nations largest publicly-held truckload carrier. Founded in 1965, their headquarters can be found in Phoenix."

it would be tough to have nothing to do with Swift

/narrow vision is narrow


I live in the DMV. DC/MD/VA area. Most of the non consumable stuff I purchase is made overseas. Lockheed is huge here, have friends that work for them and all of them are screwed over one way or another by them. I've never heard of Swift Transportation, but I have heard of JB Hunt. Your assumption that Swift is big enough to have market share in the East Coast and touch people's lives here seems rather strange. Either way, my beef isn't with them or the people running Swift Corporation. My beef is with the legislative stupidity over there. But whatever, let them do what they think works best.
 
2010-10-28 05:29:47 PM  
Philip Francis Queeg:

So as long as 30 year old white guys aren't bothered, who cares? Let's say instead you are a thirty year old naturalized immigrant from Spain. You are a US citizen, but you are from Illinois, who's ID requirements don't meet Arizona's standards.

.


The fact is, 30-year-old white guys can legally be bothered under this law, under some of the criteria you cite: let's say Jack Blowbowski from Chicago gets pulled over in Phoenix and produces his Illinois DL. The Illinois Secretary of State's requirements for getting a DL/ID card don't pass muster under Arizona law. Jack is asked for his passport, which he doesn't have with him becuase he's not travelling outside the US. The Arpiao Goon who pulled him over thinks to himself "gee, he doesn't have a passport, Chicago has a lot of illegals from Eastern Europe, so ta da! I have probable cause!!" So off goes Jack to Tent City until the Maricopa County SO determines he's a citizen, if they even bother to at all.

So yeah folks, it can happen to you.
 
2010-10-28 05:33:10 PM  
Cthulhu Theory: Really? That's your counterargument? Do you have anything that provides reasonable suspicion that all supporters of this law are pedos? No? Of course not. Shut up, you're not helping your cause.

Yes I saw you by a school!
It is a proven fact that pedophiles are known to frequent schools for victims and since you were near a school acting "suspicious" until you prove otherwise you are a Pedo!

This is what this law does, it allows an officer to accuse you of committing a crime without evidence and forces you to prove otherwise!

No different than my scenario Pedobear!

So Prove that you aren't!
 
2010-10-28 05:35:14 PM  
The_Six_Fingered_Man:

Well, I'm a 30 year old white guy. What reasonable suspicion did I give him that I'm illegal? Also, I have a California ID, which is acceptable documentation to presume that I am in the country legally, per the Arizona law.



Are you actually proud that you're in compliance with an unjust law?
 
2010-10-28 05:49:14 PM  
brap: I love Arizona it's beautiful the girl keeps hinting that she wants me to move out there with her.

But politically it's tard central.


Don't go. It's Jersey in the desert. Only reason to come here is late October through April. Rest of the year is hot. Maybe Flagstaff, but unless you're a college professor or in forestry, you'll have a problem getting employed.
 
2010-10-28 05:53:15 PM  
kapaso: The_Six_Fingered_Man: kapaso: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Philip Francis Queeg: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Philip Francis Queeg: The_Six_Fingered_Man: drewkumo: The_Six_Fingered_Man: You realize that the INS ceased to exist in 2003 and now those duties are handled by ICE, right?

Nah I didn't realize that. But like I said, it doesn't matter much as long as it is done in a reasonable amount of time.

Which is why the LESC exists. To return requests in a reasonable amount of time.

This page states that it takes about 10 minutes for the hits to come back. That's pretty reasonable to me.

So hauling US citizens to the police station for not having the proper papers is OK with you as long as it's only for a few minutes? How long will you stay in a holding cell waiting for them to process you before you get upset?

Well, I carry a California DL, which requires proof of residency before issuance, so I'm all good.

But we're talking about the average length of a traffic stop here. It's not an inordinate amount of time.

No, were talking about the cop pulling you over, and see's that your license doesn't meet Arizona's requirements. He then asks you to step out of the vehicle, pats you down, hand cuffs you, and puts you into the back of his squad car. He then drives you to the Police station. Still handcuffed, you are removed from the squad car and led to a holding cell, where you sit until the clerk can process you. When it's finally your turn, you are led out, and handcuffed to the booking desk while the clerk takes your information. When the clerk is done talking to you, you are returned to the holding cell. Now, if you are lucky, and the clerk isn't too busy, he makes the 10 minute phone call without you having to wait too long. If you check out, you are taken out of the holding cell, and processed out, getting your personal belongings back. Meanwhile, your car has been towed from the side of the road, and is in the impound lot. You'll have to catch a cab from the Police station to the lot to get it out.

Still sound reasonable to you?

Well, I'm a 30 year old white guy. What reasonable suspicion did I give him that I'm illegal? Also, I have a California ID, which is acceptable documentation to presume that I am in the country legally, per the Arizona law.

Also, no one says that this phone call has to take place at the station. LEOs can call the LESC from the phone in their cruiser, or access the LESC from the computer terminal in the cruiser. Remember, the law states that a reasonable determination must be made, when practicable. The situation you described, at least to me, does not seem practicable when alternative solutions are present. Taking someone all the way down to the station creates paperwork. Doing a roadside check is significantly less paperwork. How many cops do you know that like to do paperwork, even to catch ebil brown people?

If the scenario you lay out is true then why are they trying to build more prisons?

I honestly have no idea. I'm not involved in that process.

You honestly have no idea?

Are you disingenuous or obtuse? They are building more prisons so they can fill them up and make a profit. Not really hard to figure out, unless you think they plan on taking huge losses when they stand empty.


Disingenuous is my guess.
 
2010-10-28 06:01:34 PM  
'Ze papers' immigrants have been required since 1946 is usually just called a green card.
farm4.static.flickr.com
 
2010-10-28 06:18:28 PM  
dbrunker: 'Ze papers' immigrants have been required since 1946 is usually just called a green card.

Yes, and foreigners tend to carry that thing around. But actual born and raised citizens? Majority of 'em don't even have a passport, never mind carry the thing around.
 
2010-10-28 06:20:40 PM  
Holy FAIL!

The Arizona law follows federal law, but only at a state level.

BTW, Mexico is enacting it's own immigration laws - which are much more strict.
 
2010-10-28 06:25:00 PM  
What bothers me the most about this is the number of people professing that they absolutely do not beileve anything NPR says and don't consider what NPR does as good journalism.
I don't even care what side you are standing on but when you can't see the difference between good (or even mediocre) journalism and propaganda then I don't know why we should even have a discussion.

Why do people insist on wanting to be right in all cases even when it utterly and copletely shows their ignorance?

Where is the Farker that recently professed that the choice of music that NPR puts between their pieces was clear proof of the insidious liberal agenda they were trying to put onto people? I want to tal to that Farker again.
 
2010-10-28 06:25:24 PM  
Glad to see I'm getting my money's worth for my NRA membership and Exxon shares.
 
2010-10-28 06:28:25 PM  
Azlefty: Cthulhu Theory: Really? That's your counterargument? Do you have anything that provides reasonable suspicion that all supporters of this law are pedos? No? Of course not. Shut up, you're not helping your cause.

Yes I saw you by a school!
It is a proven fact that pedophiles are known to frequent schools for victims and since you were near a school acting "suspicious" until you prove otherwise you are a Pedo!

This is what this law does, it allows an officer to accuse you of committing a crime without evidence and forces you to prove otherwise!

No different than my scenario Pedobear!

So Prove that you aren't!


You do realize there's no accusation here, asking a simple question is not an accusation. A lot of people seem to not get this concept. Asking to see your receipt on your way out of the store is not the store accusing you of shoplifting, it's simply verifying that you paid for your items. Your scenario involves slander and libel and is highly unconstitutional.
 
2010-10-28 06:30:25 PM  
DistendedPendulusFrenulum: Great. Another way to siphon money off of the government.

Welfare is when a$$holes sit around and collect a government check. Public contracting is when government pays for a service, without having to pay for some lazy public employee's pension and healthcare.

Who says teabaggers are against welfare?

Who says libtards aren't smug, condescending, little snots who like to use pejoratives for those who dare to disagree with them, while simultaneously displaying mock outrage whenever someone dissents from their view of political correctness and thenthitivity?
 
2010-10-28 06:37:58 PM  
dbrunker: 'Ze papers' immigrants have been required since 1946 is usually just called a green card.

What about non-immigrants? What papers do you think they should be required by law to carry, since you seem to be OK with this?
 
2010-10-28 06:38:59 PM  
Cthulhu Theory: Asking to see your receipt on your way out of the store is not the store accusing you of shoplifting, it's simply verifying that you paid for your items.

Yes it is.
 
2010-10-28 06:47:43 PM  
bookman: pvd021: The hippies were right, this country is turning into a prison state. But its in Arizona, who in the world would want to live there anyways, with that level of blatant xenophobia and stupidity. Either their a good proportion of their public are stupid and lazy, or they agree with these crazy laws. Either way, I hope they enjoy.

Particularly since YOU will NOT be there, right?

Go boycott some Arizona Iced Tea; it will make you feel better.

If Brown wins in California and they go ahead with the Final Solutions Global Warming Bill, I will probably be moving to Arizona shortly thereafter.


We don't want you.
 
2010-10-28 06:51:29 PM  
MONSTERTRUCK: Hmmmm...sounds like Aramark would be involved in this as well.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of Archer Daniels Midland?
Talk about having Congress in your back pocket.
 
2010-10-28 06:55:22 PM  
7Mary3and4: If the US wants to be "your papers please" then the US needs to make citizens all carry some ID, ideally their passports. Proposing this and watching conservative heads explode would be QUITE entertaining.

THIS.


Yup. I'd vote for that. Only fair.
 
2010-10-28 07:08:49 PM  
And it could mean hundreds of millions of dollars in profits to private prison companies responsible for housing them.

All at the taxpayers' expense, of course.
 
2010-10-28 07:10:49 PM  
BMFPitt: Cthulhu Theory: Asking to see your receipt on your way out of the store is not the store accusing you of shoplifting, it's simply verifying that you paid for your items.

Yes it is.


If you can honestly say that receipt checking is an accusatory action then I can only imagine what other inconsequential things that happen on a day to day basis equate to to you. I bet you get upset when people ask if you are feeling ok or how your day was. I bet it seems like they think you look ill or bad or, even worse, are invading your privacy and stalking you. You're an idiot as is everyone else who is twisting this law in every way possible to be as evil as possible.
 
2010-10-28 07:13:06 PM  
Constance Velocity: 7Mary3and4: If the US wants to be "your papers please" then the US needs to make citizens all carry some ID, ideally their passports. Proposing this and watching conservative heads explode would be QUITE entertaining.

THIS.

Yup. I'd vote for that. Only fair.


If it gets everyone to shut up about the law, I'm game.
 
2010-10-28 07:14:25 PM  
Cthulhu Theory: Asking to see your receipt on your way out of the store is not the store accusing you of shoplifting, it's simply verifying that you paid for your items.

They can ask, and you can tell them to fark off, assuming they have no evidence you shoplifted.
 
2010-10-28 07:18:05 PM  
Cthulhu Theory: If you can honestly say that receipt checking is an accusatory action then I can only imagine what other inconsequential things that happen on a day to day basis equate to to you. I bet you get upset when people ask if you are feeling ok or how your day was. I bet it seems like they think you look ill or bad or, even worse, are invading your privacy and stalking you.

That's some weapons grade stupid right there.

You're an idiot as is everyone else who is twisting this law in every way possible to be as evil as possible.

The 4th Amendment was written for a reason. This is pretty much that reason.
 
2010-10-28 07:32:08 PM  
i2.photobucket.com
 
2010-10-28 09:35:27 PM  
Privatized prisons for profit = Freedom!
 
2010-10-28 09:51:10 PM  
A Fark Handle: 2wolves: Blues_X: Prisons should never, ever, be for-profit enterprises.

Just like health care.

exactly...

oh and immigration can only be solved through massive fines for employers of illegals and strict enforcement of those fines. and i mean business crippling fines and no excuses of "i didn't know they were illegal." and don't tell me e-verify doesn't work, it does a decent job. further if there were fines a market solution would develop. companies would form to screen potential employees for eligibility and insure said eligibility, think of it has ICE insurance. or we could have a national employment eligibility id system, but some people are scared of the government so that might not be much of a conversation starter...


I posted something to that effect a few months back...

You need to send out teams, IRS auditors, Imigration Enforcement, and Labor Board. They do a sweep and it's $5k per illegal first offense and they audit the business. Second offense it's $10k per illegal in employ and per month of employment up to date of last sweep. Third strike, IRS freezes your accounts for a full blown no vaseline audit of everything including executive incomes, business license revoked/suspended for 12 months, and $20k per illegal per month up to date of previous raid.

You enact something that harsh, and ENFORCE it, illegal imigration becomes a non-issue in a few years time. The first time a business gets busted others will start paying attention.

Also maybe you know funding imigration services and modernizing it to actually help process and move through legal and valid imigration, even temporary worker status to meet seasonal demands and it becomes a non-issue.

But two things are keeping illegal imigration an issue at all, and it's not for lack of enforcement... Hell for some people busted it's a free bus ride back home because they'll have a new name and SS by week's end. I know this for fact, worked several places that would see a guy leave to come back 3 days later with a new name.

The issue is ENFORCEMENT of labor/safety laws, and ENFORCEMENT of minimum wage laws.

If wage, labor, and safety laws were enforced it wouldn't even matter because there'd be no benifit to hiring illegals other than seasonal demand. So if Billy Joe wanted to pick strawberries there's no benifit to hiring in Chuy in front of Home Depot versus Billy Joe down at unemployment.
 
2010-10-28 09:54:19 PM  
Cthulhu Theory: BMFPitt: Cthulhu Theory: Asking to see your receipt on your way out of the store is not the store accusing you of shoplifting, it's simply verifying that you paid for your items.

Yes it is.

If you can honestly say that receipt checking is an accusatory action then I can only imagine what other inconsequential things that happen on a day to day basis equate to to you. I bet you get upset when people ask if you are feeling ok or how your day was. I bet it seems like they think you look ill or bad or, even worse, are invading your privacy and stalking you. You're an idiot as is everyone else who is twisting this law in every way possible to be as evil as possible.


uh braniac, receipt checking is a LOSS PREVENTION measure... 100%. It has nothing to do with quality of service, it's solely about preventing people from stealing. ie; every time you're requested to present a receipt it's sole purpose is to see if you stole something or not.
 
2010-10-28 09:55:01 PM  
2wolves: Blues_X: Prisons should never, ever, be for-profit enterprises.

Just like health care.


And restaurants. You'll die faster from lack of food than from lack of health care.
 
2010-10-28 09:57:56 PM  
DssDevl: Yeah, but NPR has no problem with a socialist organization writing the universal healthcare bill.

Actually, it's mostly an insurance reform... which is completely socialist and anti-democratic... because the insurance laws are working in the people's best interests right now...

/end sarcasm
//stop getting your news from Fox... kthx
 
2010-10-28 10:35:10 PM  
Totally Legal

/S'True
 
2010-10-28 11:31:23 PM  
chrylis: And restaurants. You'll die faster from lack of food than from lack of health care.

imagemacros.files.wordpress.com
ALL ABOARD!! TOOT TOOT!
 
2010-10-29 12:52:39 AM  
hmmmm....

who woulda thought that some rich @ssholes were using some poor bigots to make more money ......
 
2010-10-29 03:50:20 AM  
Jackson Herring: Most of my friends are borderline retarded when it comes to Politics.

That's because politics in itself is retarded.
 
2010-10-29 09:24:58 AM  
ArmanTanzarian: One word:

High-Speed Mag_Lev Bullet Trains

Mexican workers commute to work in the US & home again to Mexico each day. We charge a fee for the service. Problem solved.


Maybe it's just the vodka and benzine talking, but that sounds like a not so horrible idea. I think I'd expand upon it though.
 
2010-10-29 10:10:42 AM  
How do I got about starting a private prison? I'll operate for free, the only thing is I will only accept hot chicks. I'll release them after then turn fugly.
 
2010-10-29 11:06:33 AM  
KingPsyz: uh braniac, receipt checking is a LOSS PREVENTION measure... 100%. It has nothing to do with quality of service, it's solely about preventing people from stealing. ie; every time you're requested to present a receipt it's sole purpose is to see if you stole something or not everything was rung up by the cashier.

FTFM. What's it like living in a "glass half-empty" kind of world?
 
Displayed 50 of 309 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | » | Last | Show all



This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
Advertisement
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report